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Author
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Topic: Multi (8) throttle body Northstar!
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AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
As usual, I wasn't satisfied with the std kit supplied to install these inserts, so I drilled a 17/32 hole in the chunk of aluminum supplied as a tap block to now also be used as a drill block. seeings how God only saw fit to give me two hands, I also attached a piece of angle iron to the block so I could bolt it down to an ajacent head bolt during the drilling opperation. you can see why the masking tape is a good idea.
Russ544 |
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I like it. That corrects one small problem the I see with Norm's kit. Very nice. 
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Will:
I've used packing tape before and it works fine. It's very thin and doesn't affect insert depth enough to worry about. I was wondering if your insert depth uncertainty was related to the thickness of the tape. |
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insert depth leeway is from 1" to 1 1/4" from the top of the insert to the deck surface so tape thickness doesn't seem a major problem in measurement. My only problem with getting the depth correct was when a chip had gotten under the tap and prevented it from going in to the full depth. it requires threads be cut in every bit of the depth available in the hole to get the inserts to the correct depth range.
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 03-31-2008).] IP: Logged |
kawana
Member Posts: 2215
From: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Registered: May 2007
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updates?IP: Logged |
THE BEAST
Member Posts: 1141
From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA
Registered: Dec 2000
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I have to agree to that solution. I had the worst time trying to hold that block still. it even came close couple of times when the block got cut into the drill bit and spoon.
Thanks for the tip I will use it on my next N* built (hopefully no soon).
JGIP: Logged |
Erik
Member Posts: 5042
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by THE BEAST:
I have to agree to that solution. I had the worst time trying to hold that block still. it even came close couple of times when the block got cut into the drill bit and spoon.
Thanks for the tip I will use it on my next N* built (hopefully no soon).
JG |
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I don't have that problem with the timesert jig
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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I put in one very loooong day on Friday (my day off) and got the short block swapped out on my "mule" motor. she fired up at 8:30 PM. I didn't have any finished ITB setups to put on it, so I installed a stock injection so I could test run the thing....... and check for leaks  . everything seems good, and it sounds strong, so I'm ready to test again.
wile testing the motor with the Cad injection, I was soon reminded why I'm not using the Holley ECM on my IMSA anymore. boy that Holly Commander idles crappy with the stock injection. I wonder why that is ?............. I may have to do some expermenting to see if I can figure that one out someday. I may have to start a new thread to get full coverage on the responses, but I'd really be interested to hear back from people using the Holly, and if they all are having the same idle problems. I know some others are, but is every one? my ITB setup idles like a dream with the Holly, so I know it's the stock intake system that doesn't like it.
I've had one 01-03 Suzuki TB set on the shelf for a wile now, and I just won another one on flee-bay, so when it arrives I'll be doing some experimenting with an ITB using the injector ports in the TB instead of the runner. I think with a shorter runner, and by having the injectors on the "inside" of the TB, the spray trajectory should be acceptable. it'll be interesting to see how it performs, compared to my current arrangement.
Russ544
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Erik
Member Posts: 5042
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
I put in one very loooong day on Friday (my day off) and got the short block swapped out on my "mule" motor. she fired up at 8:30 PM. I didn't have any finished ITB setups to put on it, so I installed a stock injection so I could test run the thing....... and check for leaks . everything seems good, and it sounds strong, so I'm ready to test again.
wile testing the motor with the Cad injection, I was soon reminded why I'm not using the Holley ECM on my IMSA anymore. boy that Holly Commander idles crappy with the stock injection. I wonder why that is ?............. I may have to do some expermenting to see if I can figure that one out someday. I may have to start a new thread to get full coverage on the responses, but I'd really be interested to hear back from people using the Holly, and if they all are having the same idle problems. I know some others are, but is every one? my ITB setup idles like a dream with the Holly, so I know it's the stock intake system that doesn't like it.
I've had one 01-03 Suzuki TB set on the shelf for a wile now, and I just won another one on flee-bay, so when it arrives I'll be doing some experimenting with an ITB using the injector ports in the TB instead of the runner. I think with a shorter runner, and by having the injectors on the "inside" of the TB, the spray trajectory should be acceptable. it'll be interesting to see how it performs, compared to my current arrangement.
Russ544
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Are the 01 -03 Suzuki TB injectors on the "inside" as opposed to to the later TBs you are currently using? BTW I would really like to see how your current setup performs as in a video while driving the car ..hint hint  IP: Logged |
merlot566jka
Member Posts: 657
From: Everett, Washington
Registered: Jun 2007
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id like to see an in-car vid, so we can hear those tb's under a loadIP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Erik:
Are the 01 -03 Suzuki TB injectors on the "inside" as opposed to to the later TBs you are currently using? BTW I would really like to see how your current setup performs as in a video while driving the car ..hint hint |
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No, but the injector holes are larger than the later TBs, so the Cad injectors fit them. I can place the injectors "inside" simply by turning the sets around so the injectors face each other on the N*.
My wife has been in Kentucky at a big quilt show for the past week, but when she gets back (she has my camera) I'll get that vid..... that is as long as it's not snowing or something.... this year I wouldn't bet against it. last week was below freezing at night and ~ 45 for highs. weird!!
RussIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
I've had one 01-03 Suzuki TB set on the shelf for a wile now, and I just won another one on flee-bay, so when it arrives I'll be doing some experimenting with an ITB using the injector ports in the TB instead of the runner. I think with a shorter runner, and by having the injectors on the "inside" of the TB, the spray trajectory should be acceptable. it'll be interesting to see how it performs, compared to my current arrangement.
Russ544
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If you want a couple more, let me know. I figured if I'm going to go big, I might as well go BIG. I'm going to get a set of hayabusa TB's to replace them. Spendy buggers though, I can't find them for less than $200.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
If you want a couple more, let me know. I figured if I'm going to go big, I might as well go BIG. I'm going to get a set of hayabusa TB's to replace them. Spendy buggers though, I can't find them for less than $200. |
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COOL. so that means you got the other problem you were having figured out then? that's awsome.
Russ544IP: Logged |
TRiAD
Member Posts: 4290
From: Central IL
Registered: May 2001
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Awesome build!!
I love ITBs, and it's nice to see someone making a custom setup.
~M
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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I expect another month and 1/2 + of these 12 hour days at work, so bump until then.
damn I'm tired,
Russ IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Russ - I've got a cheap fix for some custom N* fuel rails. You might be interested for your '01 gixxer TBs. More later.....
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
Russ - I've got a cheap fix for some custom N* fuel rails. You might be interested for your '01 gixxer TBs. More later.....
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How "later"? you have my interest.
I drove the IMSA to work today for the first time in a month or so. damn that things a kick to drive. the torque is very fun to play with. by just rolling along and then nailing the throttle I can really lighten up the front end. I doubt the wheels come off the ground, but it sure feels like it sometimes.
Ryan. when the air inlet temp sensor isn't plugged in, is it telling the ECU that the temp is cold, or hot? I still don't have an airbox made yet, so I haven't ever attached a sensor there. according to the exhaust, it appears to be running quite rich, especially when first started, so it must think it's cold outside.
another few weeks and I'll have some spare time to play with my toys again. yippie !!
RussIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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When the IAT isn't plugged in, it defaults to -31 degrees.
I picked up some 2.4L fuel rails for experimentation. I thought the bore spacing was 102mm, the same as the northstar. However, this ended up to be actually 100mm.
So, with 3 spaces 2mm off, you get 6mm too short.... or the outside two injectors 3mm from ideal. This puts a few degrees angle on them. I haven't decided if I care or not. I'm a perfectionist, so even though I wouldn't see it, it would nag at me. BUT, I picked up the two of them for $30 (total) with regulators. Basically all that needs to be done is run a fuel jumper between them and remove one regulator. Couldn't be simpler. You could also space the throttles to match it if you wanted to. Mine are already done, so it's too late for me.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
When the IAT isn't plugged in, it defaults to -31 degrees.
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well... that would certainly account for my rich condition wouldn't it
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I picked up some 2.4L fuel rails for experimentation. I thought the bore spacing was 102mm, the same as the northstar. However, this ended up to be actually 100mm.
So, with 3 spaces 2mm off, you get 6mm too short.... or the outside two injectors 3mm from ideal. This puts a few degrees angle on them. I haven't decided if I care or not. I'm a perfectionist, so even though I wouldn't see it, it would nag at me. BUT, I picked up the two of them for $30 (total) with regulators. Basically all that needs to be done is run a fuel jumper between them and remove one regulator. Couldn't be simpler. You could also space the throttles to match it if you wanted to. Mine are already done, so it's too late for me. |
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That looks interesting for my early tb project. I'll look at my parts this evening to see if I can use those, but I'll bet I could.
Cheers,
Russ
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Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
I picked up some 2.4L fuel rails for experimentation. I thought the bore spacing was 102mm, the same as the northstar. However, this ended up to be actually 100mm.
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I think that Quad 4's have 102mm bore centers.
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Erik
Member Posts: 5042
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Will:
I think that Quad 4's have 102mm bore centers.
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I was thinking the same thing ..perhaps the 2.3s have the proper spacing
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ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Will:
I think that Quad 4's have 102mm bore centers.
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I thought we went over this?
2.4 has 100mm bore spacing, and the 2.4 crank interchanges with the 2.3 crank..... so they're the same.
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Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
I thought we went over this?
2.4 has 100mm bore spacing, and the 2.4 crank interchanges with the 2.3 crank..... so they're the same.
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For some reason I was thinking you were talking about 2.4 Ecotec... 
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ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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I didn't know there was a 2.4 ecotec?
The rails are from a 2000 sunfire 2.4L........ whatever engine that happens to have (which I thought was a 2.4 "twin cam")
edit: the LE5 ecotec (2.4L) has 95.48mm bore centers. Can't find the 2.2, but it has a smaller bore.[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 06-20-2008).] IP: Logged |
Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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GM was scraping for space like crazy in the Northstar, but it still has a bigger bore spacing than the Q4, which has the same bore. Interesting. I guess that's what an iron block gets you.IP: Logged |
greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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Russ.........
Once you are pretty satisfied that you've made the best version itb intake you can (perhaps with the '01-'03 tb's), I wonder how difficult/expensive it would be to have the steel intake manifolds cast in aluminum to really shave the weight down?
I assume that would be cheaper than attempting to machine anything like that?
Or would fabricating/welding it out of aluminum stock be the best option?
Anyone with suggestions or referals to companies who do this sort of thing please chime in.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by greg288:
Russ.........
Once you are pretty satisfied that you've made the best version itb intake you can (perhaps with the '01-'03 tb's), I wonder how difficult/expensive it would be to have the steel intake manifolds cast in aluminum to really shave the weight down?
I assume that would be cheaper than attempting to machine anything like that?
Or would fabricating/welding it out of aluminum stock be the best option?
Anyone with suggestions or referals to companies who do this sort of thing please chime in. |
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Well... I can tell you without a doubt that it wouldn't be worth the effort and expense to have these cast in aluminum. they aren't that heavy to begin with, in steel. I can weigh the bare manifolds when I get home tonight, but I'd bet that you'd only be saving ounces by casting them, and it would be VERY expensive to have done. I haven't had time to work with the early TBs yet. those would be for a lower cost alternative to what I have now, but no way do I expect them to perform any better than what I'm using now.
Russ[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 07-30-2008).] IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Yeah, I'm not sure I understand the point. The whole intake is only a few pounds.
I think these guys just want you to do more work, Russ...
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greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
Well... I can tell you without a doubt that it wouldn't be worth the effort and expense to have these cast in aluminum. they aren't that heavy to begin with, in steel. I can weigh the bare manifolds when I get home tonight, but I'd bet that you'd only be saving ounces by casting them, and it would be VERY expensive to have done. I haven't had time to work with the early TBs yet. those would be for a lower cost alternative to what I have now, but no way do I expect them to perform any better than what I'm using now.
Russ
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Okay, I guess the weight of the intake system you gave earlier in the thread (22 lbs. from memory) just seemed like alot.
Is lower cost the only reason for the earlier tb's? Lower cost because you don't have to make the injector boss portion of the manifolds? Won't it also be a marginally cleaner looking set-up having the injector in the tb?
Do you expect any loss of efficiency from a change in the injector spray angle/trajectory?
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greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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Also, how will shorter intake runners factor in?IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by greg288:
Okay, I guess the weight of the intake system you gave earlier in the thread (22 lbs. from memory) just seemed like alot.
Is lower cost the only reason for the earlier tb's? Lower cost because you don't have to make the injector boss portion of the manifolds? Won't it also be a marginally cleaner looking set-up having the injector in the tb?
Do you expect any loss of efficiency from a change in the injector spray angle/trajectory?
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22 lb was for the compleat system, ready to bolt on. TBs, injectors, sensors, vac lines, manifolds and all. the bare manifolds alone weigh about 3.1 lb each in powder coated steel. when a part is cast in aluminum it must be much thicker than the steel part it replaces, so not much weight savings would be achieved.
Yes, cost is the only reason I would use the early TBs. In order to use the late TBs a lot of labor is rung up fabricating the "shed" for the injector bung, fabricating the injector bung itself, then silver brazing them into the manifold, which also has to be relieved on the side for injector clearance, etc. It remains to be seen how the early TB setup will compare performancewise, but I doubt that the injector trajectory can be set up as efficient as the way I have it now. It may not make a big difference, but we just won't know until we try.
Shorter runners may raise the rpm that max HP is achived by a few ticks, but I don't expect much change.
Thanks for the interest,
RussIP: Logged |
cptsnoopy
Member Posts: 1855
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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Hi Russ,
Will you be working with the "mule" engine and ITB setup anytime soon? I was wondering, now that you have an aurora, if you will be testing it out on the stand?
I am just starting to cut and splice. As you are aware, I need to remove several feet of wire from the chrfab.com harness.
Charlie
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cptsnoopy:
Hi Russ,
Will you be working with the "mule" engine and ITB setup anytime soon? I was wondering, now that you have an aurora, if you will be testing it out on the stand?
I am just starting to cut and splice. As you are aware, I need to remove several feet of wire from the chrfab.com harness.
Charlie
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I'm not sure just what I'll do with the Aurora yet. I got a good deal (trade) on it, and it's "compleat compleat" with ac pump, super clean alt, full wire harness and ecm, ex manifolds, intake elbow, the whole 9 yards. and it appears to be in excellent condition as well. apparantly it was extracted because the flex plate bolts had all sheared off and they didn't want to spend the money to fix the car. anyway, I doubt that I'll put it on my test stand anytime soon. in fact I'm headed to Portland this weekend to pick up a new project. a 66 Corvair, so I may be busy with that for a wile. I've always wanted to see how well an LS1 would fit where the back seat is in one of those
Russ
PS: dad is coming to Az for a couple weeks soon. do you need anything from my back room?IP: Logged |
cptsnoopy
Member Posts: 1855
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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Thank you for the offer Russ. I most likely do need some things but I cannot think of anything now. I will find out when I start putting the body back on the car. I may have to come out for a visit when I get it all figured out.
I was asking about the Aurora to see if you would be working on any fuel tables. It looks like my wideband O2 sensor is still working so I hope to have some help from it to get the base map close before I ruin the cats.
Charlie
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cptsnoopy:
Thank you for the offer Russ. I most likely do need some things but I cannot think of anything now. I will find out when I start putting the body back on the car. I may have to come out for a visit when I get it all figured out.
I was asking about the Aurora to see if you would be working on any fuel tables. It looks like my wideband O2 sensor is still working so I hope to have some help from it to get the base map close before I ruin the cats.
Charlie
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Ya, the Holly/CHRF base maps are pure S#!^. My maps still need a lot of work, but I'll see about getting you a copy of what I have. I guarantee it will be better than the ones supplied with the Commander. I assume you're using a laptop that uses a 3 1/4 floppy disk?
RussIP: Logged |
cptsnoopy
Member Posts: 1855
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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Hi Russ, I am using a laptop and have a portable 3.5" drive to use if needed. I was thinking that these files may be small enough to attach to an email. Would you be interested in trying that?
Charlie
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cptsnoopy:
Hi Russ, I am using a laptop and have a portable 3.5" drive to use if needed. I was thinking that these files may be small enough to attach to an email. Would you be interested in trying that?
Charlie
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I don't have a way to get the file off a floppy and on to the box I use for E-mail. I made you a copy of my "work in progress mule motor base map" file and sent you the disk out via snail mail a few minutes ago however. It seems like I'm always tweeking my base map for one reason or another, so it's not very "refined" but I think you'll still find it to be a ton better than the one you have.
looking forward to hearing some noise from your garage soon
Russ544IP: Logged |
cptsnoopy
Member Posts: 1855
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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Thank you Russ!
I worked on the wiring for several hours last night... I have been working from the rear of the engine forward. The front of the engine is hidden under a rat's nest of wire! 
At the current rate (assuming no gross errors) I should be able to leak check and crank within a month.IP: Logged |
THE BEAST
Member Posts: 1141
From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA
Registered: Dec 2000
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BUMP!!
Russ, you have a new PM !
JGIP: Logged |
JCUOIT
Member Posts: 310
From: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2007
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BumpIP: Logged |
jdv
Member Posts: 46
From:
Registered: Dec 2006
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anyone else have this running? IP: Logged |
RCR
Member Posts: 2497
From: Shelby Twp Mi
Registered: Sep 2002
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http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/000017-16.html
BobIP: Logged |
