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Author
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Topic: Multi (8) throttle body Northstar!
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cptsnoopy:
Russ, I have the Aurora metal fuel rail. Do you need it sent to you?
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is it different than one of the rails I posted pictures of here?: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/089088.html
I shouldn't need it to build your setup, but I will exchange with you when the time comes. we aren't quite there just yet however  .
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-27-2008).] IP: Logged |
THE BEAST
Member Posts: 1141
From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA
Registered: Dec 2000
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Russ you have a new PM!
JGIP: Logged |
cptsnoopy
Member Posts: 1855
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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Another part number to add to your list of N* metal fuel rails: 12583146
Edit: I see that you already discussed this one and that AJxtcman has already shown a diagram. I have not made any fuel delivery lines yet so options are open.
Charlie 
 [This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 01-27-2008).] IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by THE BEAST:
Russ you have a new PM!
JG |
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returned. thank you!
RussIP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cptsnoopy:
Another part number to add to your list of N* metal fuel rails: 12583146
Edit: I see that you already discussed this one and that AJxtcman has already shown a diagram. I have not made any fuel delivery lines yet so options are open.
Charlie
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the design of your rail ends shouldn't have any effect on the build, but I'll keep it in mind just in case.
thanks,
RussIP: Logged |
greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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Hi Russ, wonderful thread & work. I love how you share all your r&d and document it with so many pics.! A great help to all your fellow enthusiasts!
My forum time has been spent in Mercedes & Ferrari forums but I stumbled into this thread over the weekend. I've got a Ferrari project (real, not replica) with a Northstar transplant and, even though I love the engine, always thought the intake looked a bit too domestic & not exotic enough for its new home. I've always wanted to do something like this (like a Ferrari 355) and possibly, if space allows, a 180 deg. exhaust for a more Ferrari flat crank sound.
I'm very excited about the work going on here.....can't wait to see it on the road & may want to acquire the parts you're developing if you do end up making a batch.
Thanks again for blazing a trail, Greg.IP: Logged |
Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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| | | quote | Originally posted by greg288:
Hi Russ, wonderful thread & work. I love how you share all your r&d and document it with so many pics.! A great help to all your fellow enthusiasts!
My forum time has been spent in Mercedes & Ferrari forums but I stumbled into this thread over the weekend. I've got a Ferrari project (real, not replica) with a Northstar transplant and, even though I love the engine, always thought the intake looked a bit too domestic & not exotic enough for its new home. I've always wanted to do something like this (like a Ferrari 355) and possibly, if space allows, a 180 deg. exhaust for a more Ferrari flat crank sound.
I'm very excited about the work going on here.....can't wait to see it on the road & may want to acquire the parts you're developing if you do end up making a batch.
Thanks again for blazing a trail, Greg. |
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Mind sharing more about your project? Start a new thread if you'd like...IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by greg288:
Hi Russ, wonderful thread & work. I love how you share all your r&d and document it with so many pics.! A great help to all your fellow enthusiasts!
My forum time has been spent in Mercedes & Ferrari forums but I stumbled into this thread over the weekend. I've got a Ferrari project (real, not replica) with a Northstar transplant and, even though I love the engine, always thought the intake looked a bit too domestic & not exotic enough for its new home. I've always wanted to do something like this (like a Ferrari 355) and possibly, if space allows, a 180 deg. exhaust for a more Ferrari flat crank sound.
I'm very excited about the work going on here.....can't wait to see it on the road & may want to acquire the parts you're developing if you do end up making a batch.
Thanks again for blazing a trail, Greg. |
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Thanks very much Greg. It's always great to hear from people on the outside....... say.... is Clinton still president?? . I do fully intend to continue to refine these ITB injection sytems and produce more of them for sale, so keep in touch and I'll work something out for you.
Sounds like you've got a nice project going there yourself. are you running a stock or modified N*? what body style car?
Russ544
ps: [seen on a bumper sticket] **Monica lewinskys X boyfriends wife for president**[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-28-2008).] IP: Logged |
greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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My wife & I are hoping Hilary gets shut down but politics aside.....
It's a stock Northstar save a dry sump conversion (I'm the one who blazed that trail with Gary Armstrong @ A.R.E. to get that oil pan casting made up that you now see @ CHRFab.....it took a year to happen) & of course custom headers & exhaust are necessary due to the layout.
The car is a '77 308 GTB that I back-halved & caged. It's stretched to 288 GTO wheelbase now with longitudinal Cad. motor & Porsche G50/50 box. I widened the track in back by 1" & converted to Mondial rear suspension, chrome moly arms, etc...
The intent is to have a proper wheelbase 288 GTO clone bodied car with nothing on it that doesn't make it go fast, corner, or stop.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by greg288:
My wife & I are hoping Hilary gets shut down but politics aside.....
It's a stock Northstar save a dry sump conversion (I'm the one who blazed that trail with Gary Armstrong @ A.R.E. to get that oil pan casting made up that you now see @ CHRFab.....it took a year to happen) & of course custom headers & exhaust are necessary due to the layout.
The car is a '77 308 GTB that I back-halved & caged. It's stretched to 288 GTO wheelbase now with longitudinal Cad. motor & Porsche G50/50 box. I widened the track in back by 1" & converted to Mondial rear suspension, chrome moly arms, etc...
The intent is to have a proper wheelbase 288 GTO clone bodied car with nothing on it that doesn't make it go fast, corner, or stop. |
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That sounds like a REALLY fun project. also sounds like one you've been working on for a wile. Alan Johnson mentioned to me that he had an engine in his shop (~a month ago) for a customer that really wanted a setup like I'm working on. was that your engine perhaps?
I do enjoy sharing my build threads with others, and I think sharing builds is a great way to stimulate new and even better ideas. I don't worry too much about sharing my "R&D" as I figure if anyone wants to go to the trouble of trying to copy this thing, they'll have to either be as crazy as I am or very very persistant. It's a lot more work than one might think.
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-28-2008).] IP: Logged |
greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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Yep, been at it a while.... if I'm lucky I'm maybe 1/2 way there. I figure if you're going to put the time, effort & money into it, it should be something worthwhile.
Nope, the engine in question wasn't mine.
Anyway, best regards....I hope you are able to keep the momentum going on this intake project as I'll be keeping an eye on it & will definitely be in touch as parts become available.
Thanks again, Greg.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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Ryan,
sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner. I still haven't put the itb system for my mule motor back together to photograph, but I can tell you that the distance from the heads gasket mounting surface to the top of the installed TB is 7" on the prototype. the final product will be very slightly different, but it shouldn't affect the height more than +\- 1/2". I keep dreaming up new and better ways to design the jigs for this thing, so some of the "new" ones are in the trash already without even being used. ahhhhh progress
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-29-2008).] IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Cool. For reference the stock intake is ~6.5" tall.
On my setup, this leaves about 5" before you hit the decklid.IP: Logged |
Steven Snyder
Member Posts: 2893
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Mar 2004
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Not sure if it has been posted yet, but Chris West has ITBs on his Aurora (4.0L version of the Northstar). They've been on there for over a year now but the car isn't running yet :-(. He used I think Weber ITBs that come in pairs of two. He made aluminum manifolds to bolt them down onto. It's a very clean and good looking setup. The car isn't finished yet so they haven't been run. I thought I had some pics somewhere but they escape me at the moment. I'll post them for reference if I can find them![This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 01-29-2008).] IP: Logged |
Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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EFI throttles or carbs?
I thought TWM was the usual source for EFI throttle for the spending-inclined.IP: Logged |
greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Steven Snyder:
Not sure if it has been posted yet, but Chris West has ITBs on his Aurora (4.0L version of the Northstar). They've been on there for over a year now but the car isn't running yet :-(. He used I think Weber ITBs that come in pairs of two. He made aluminum manifolds to bolt them down onto. It's a very clean and good looking setup. The car isn't finished yet so they haven't been run. I thought I had some pics somewhere but they escape me at the moment. I'll post them for reference if I can find them!
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Does Chris have any thread or posts on it anywhere?
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Steven Snyder
Member Posts: 2893
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Mar 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Will:
EFI throttles or carbs?
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EFI of course. These Weber TBs have an injector bung in each. Pretty nifty pieces.
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I thought TWM was the usual source for EFI throttle for the spending-inclined. |
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Yeah, I think TWM is more expensive than Weber, and it wasn't apparent that their product would be any better of a fit..
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Does Chris have any thread or posts on it anywhere? |
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No.. the car was supposed to be done in time for WestFest last year but they didn't make it so nobody has really posted anything about it. He's shooting for this year's show.
I really wish I knew what happened to the pics I had. There are some small pics here:
http://www.fieroswest.org/p....php?album=13&pos=14
http://www.fieroswest.org/p....php?album=13&page=2
The aluminum plenum is covered up in the pics to keep dust out but you can see the Weber ITBs.
They made an aluminum flange that bolts to the heads, and swedged out some aluminum pipe to go from the port flanges to the ITB flanges. The idle control is being done with a Volvo PWM IAC that supplies air to post-throttle ports on each throttle body.
I'll keep looking for my pics, otherwise I'll take some in a couple weeks next time I visit WCF. The motor is in the car now with the turbo and headers installed ;-)[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 01-30-2008).] IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Bump.
What's taking so long?  IP: Logged |
greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
Bump.
What's taking so long? |
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You can't rush perfection!IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by greg288:
You can't rush perfection! |
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I think I'm gona' like this Greg guy
I'll post a short progress report this eve, but mostly I've been doing a "trial run" of the fabricatiion process, using my new jigs. I'm making yet another jig as we speek, to guide the cuts in making the little pent roof off the side of the manifold that holds the injector. I found it hard to make them all a uniform height by hand.
more later,
RussIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by greg288:
You can't rush perfection! |
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He's FAR from perfect..........
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
He's FAR from perfect..........
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And I'll be working on your bill later . ka-ching ... ka-ching
Russ[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 02-05-2008).] IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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OK........ as I eluded to earlier today, I've now constructed two manifold 1/2s in my new jigs, in order to work out any small bugs in the fabrication and assembly process. I'm feeling pretty comfortable about the next set of these being a "final product". I will no doubt make some minor changes over the lifespan of this project, but those changes are expected to be very minor indeed, from here on out. I built yet another jig today (lower left in picture). this contraption holds the rectangular tubing that I use to make the "shed roof" where the injectors go. one of the pieces this makes is sitting in front of the jig. it's a very small piece, but the angles and dimentions are rather critical, and trying to make each one by hand was taking forever. now I can whip out a full set of the pieces in a matter of minutes. almost all the other jigs shown are also used in the construction of the manifolds. I've made a number of special tools, and several patterns, as well. those are in the lower right of the picture.
Progress is being made, but I want to be sure these are a quality product before I send any out the door with my name on it. I really think I'm getting close to that quality level now, so stay tuned
 jigs
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 02-05-2008).] IP: Logged |
greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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Awesome! I think a set of those will look right at home on top of the mill in my project.......just what I need!
Russ, will you be sending the batch of manifolds out for finish coating of some kind or will you leave that up to the buyer?IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by greg288:
Awesome! I think a set of those will look right at home on top of the mill in my project.......just what I need!
Russ, will you be sending the batch of manifolds out for finish coating of some kind or will you leave that up to the buyer? |
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Huum. I don't have permission from Enzo to see your X I guess
I plan to powdercoat the manifolds and map plenum, wile the iac block and valley cover will be polished aluminum. what color manifolds would you like? my guess would be...... red??
RussIP: Logged |
greg288
Member Posts: 13
From: San Diego, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
Huum. I don't have permission from Enzo to see your X I guess
I plan to powdercoat the manifolds and map plenum, wile the iac block and valley cover will be polished aluminum. what color manifolds would you like? my guess would be...... red??
Russ |
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Actually, X doesn't exist just yet.
I hadn't really thought about finishes yet. I don't know about red on the runners....might want to save that for cam covers or intake enclosures for the TB's if at all.
Keep up the good work....looks great so far!
IP: Logged |
Daviero
Member Posts: 305
From: Thunder Bay, ON Canada
Registered: Jan 2006
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Russ, I read on one of your posts that you also got a 7730 from Ryan, and that your 4.6 ran like a Cadillac after replacing the Holley. You also mentioned you hooked up the vapor canister. Can you summarize your hookup, or direct me to where you posted it if that thread is complete in info? Also, do you run the EGR on your 7730 controlled 4.6? As far as I know, Ryan's 7730 has no EGR output and I wonder if you figured that out. I'd like to run mine rather than having it blanked off.
Dave.------------------
Daviero - 88 N* GT IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Daviero:
Also, do you run the EGR on your 7730 controlled 4.6? As far as I know, Ryan's 7730 has no EGR output and I wonder if you figured that out. I'd like to run mine rather than having it blanked off.
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You would have to make an adapter plate for an EGR off a mid 90's 3.1. The 7730 isn't capable of running the N* EGR which I think is a pwm/feedback type of thing. IP: Logged |
Daviero
Member Posts: 305
From: Thunder Bay, ON Canada
Registered: Jan 2006
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Ryan, how is the 3.1 EGR controlled? The mount adaptor will not be a problem -I remember seeing that detailed somewhere to come to think of it.
Dave.
Edit: Found it here: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/079574-12.html although the adaptor plate is to run EGR and the 7730 on a 2.8 V6.[This message has been edited by Daviero (edited 02-15-2008).] IP: Logged |
AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
You would have to make an adapter plate for an EGR off a mid 90's 3.1. The 7730 isn't capable of running the N* EGR which I think is a pwm/feedback type of thing. |
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My setup left the factory with NO EGR. Yes a Northstar with NO EGR from the factory.IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Daviero:
Ryan, how is the 3.1 EGR controlled? The mount adaptor will not be a problem -I remember seeing that detailed somewhere to come to think of it.
Dave.
Edit: Found it here: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/079574-12.html although the adaptor plate is to run EGR and the 7730 on a 2.8 V6.
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It's just 3 solenoids that it commands on and off depending on how much recirculation is desired. You might be able to redrill the adapter plate, but you probably wouldn't know until you had one in your hands.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Daviero:
Russ, I read on one of your posts that you also got a 7730 from Ryan, and that your 4.6 ran like a Cadillac after replacing the Holley. You also mentioned you hooked up the vapor canister. Can you summarize your hookup, or direct me to where you posted it if that thread is complete in info? Also, do you run the EGR on your 7730 controlled 4.6? As far as I know, Ryan's 7730 has no EGR output and I wonder if you figured that out. I'd like to run mine rather than having it blanked off.
Dave.
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I'm not using an EGR. for the vapor canister, I'm using the original Fiero system. the Fiero system needs one full vacume source as well as a ported vacume source, but of course no ported source is available on the Caddy TB, so I installed one. look at the second to the last post on this page for details on creating a ported vacume port in the Caddy TB: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...2/HTML/054893-8.html
I've installed a ported port in one throttle body on the ITB setup as well, in a similar fashion, in order to run the vapor canister with the new intake system.
Russ[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 02-15-2008).] IP: Logged |
Daviero
Member Posts: 305
From: Thunder Bay, ON Canada
Registered: Jan 2006
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
I'm not using an EGR on mine. for the vapor canister I used the compleat Fiero system.
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Thanks Russ and Ryan - I'll study the book for the Fiero vapor canister and reproduce that, and I think I'll leave my EGR blanked for now until I have to make it work ( or....until I get caught without one?! ). What I was mainly wanting to do is neatly route the required wires in a loom while I had the engine out for what is supposed to be the last time. Then I could use the wires later for the EGR if I need them.
Dave.
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cptsnoopy
Member Posts: 1855
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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You could have the egr valve mounted and have the stock pigtail connected and run into the wiring harness. Who is to know if it works or not? It will pass the visual inspection in AZ.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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I may have to change my user name to "JigMan" or something. the latest jig is actually a duel function piece. It began life as just a piece to hold the stainless steel injector bungs in alignment wile being tack welded into the manifold. I also wanted to design a pair of metal vacume rails to clean up the maze of hoses going to the IAC valve, but drilling the side of the main line by hand had provided about a 50/50 reject rate. I used the other side of the injector jig to make up a drill jig to hold the main vacume rail wile being drilled for the "T" fittings. they come out nice and straight now, and it's easy to silver solder the "T" fittings in place. now I'll have just two lines (one from each bank) going down to the IAC valve instead of eight.
 [This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 02-15-2008).] IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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No news to report this weekend on the project. the wife and I spent the weekend at a tree-house motel. this was our room
the next morning we spent flying 600 feet down a mountain on "zip" lines. "zipping" through the trees 50' - 75' above the ground is quite a rush. here's the wife coming in for a landing near the bottom.
I'll be back at it with clearer head and renewed ambition next week
Russ544IP: Logged |
cptsnoopy
Member Posts: 1855
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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Fun stuff for sure! Makes you want to go back and do it again...
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Erik
Member Posts: 5045
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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Was the treehouse heated? At this time of year I would hope so. Maybe it didn't have to be IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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the snow is gone from all the valley areas now. just the mountain tops are covered at the moment. You can't really see it very well, but at 10:30 am there was still frost on the grass where the zip lines ended, so it's still plenty cold at night. the rooms are heated by small electric 110v heaters, and poorly insulated, so it was necessary to make some of our own heat also.
Russ[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 02-18-2008).] IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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My "real" job is staring to get it's seasonal binge, so my time to work on this will become less and less for the next several months. I've been going in early and leaving late in order to get a bit of time in on this project each day however, so I have gotten a couple things done on it. One of the things I've been working hard on has been to find, and learn to use, the best silver solder I can get ahold of. I do believe I've found that product in SSF-6 silver solder by Muggy Weld. when you buy silver solder at a hardware, or even a welding store, you're generally getting a product with about 3-4% silver and most of the remainder is tin. this is fine for plumbing and crafts, but I wanted something stronger, and easier to use on stainless steel (the injector bungs). stainless doesn't like the high heat of welding, and all kinds of problems can develope from doing so. this is why I decided on the SSF-6 silver solder. it's 57% silver, and costs almost $10.00 per 18" stick, but what a treat to use !! this is a pre-fluxed rod, and the flux cleans better than anything I've ever seen. the silver just flows into the joint like there was a silver magnet in there. here is a sample of the finished SSF-6 as used to install the vacume ports for the pvc/power brake systems. this is just the way it looked after welding, except that I've used a ss wire "toothbrush" to clean off the remaining flux.
I have a lot of the parts for this project at home as well, but here's some of what I have at my work:
The "prototype" manifolds are there (lower left), and I won't be using those or the first "production" pair either (upper left), as those were just built to develope the jigs and assembly technics. the second production set will be going on my IMSA for further developement work (air box, velocity stacks etc). and the third, and subsequent sets, will be for sale.
This has really been one of the most enjoyable projects I've done in a long time. I've learned a lot of different crafts and technics, and polished my skills on many others. and that's what keeps my crank turning.[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 02-26-2008).] IP: Logged |
