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Author
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Topic: Multi (8) throttle body Northstar!
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
Sweet!
Whoever said "Keep it simple, stupid" must never have heard an ITB'd Northstar.. |
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Only because he tried to make it too complicated 
Cheers,
StupidRuss544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-06-2008).] IP: Logged |
Erik
Member Posts: 5045
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
kind of the sound a formula 1 car makes when it hits the rev limiter, except I can still rev higher.
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over 20,000 rpms in a Northstar ..hmmm
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Erik:
over 20,000 rpms in a Northstar ..hmmm
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Somehow I just had a hunch that would be misinterpreted..... ok... for the logicly challenged I'll edit my post to say: "except when the Northstar makes that sound, at around 2,500 to 3,500 rpm, it can still rev higher".
 ha ha[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-07-2008).] IP: Logged |
Erik
Member Posts: 5045
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
Somehow I just had a hunch that would be misinterpreted..... ok... for the logicly challenged I'll edit my post to say: "except when when the Northstar makes that sound, at around 2,500 to 3,500 rpm, it can still rev higher".
ha ha
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I was just joking of course  ..Your engine has a deep sound that the F1 don't along with the ripping silk sound they have without spinning at astronomical speeds. What logic/ formula are you using in determining the size of the throttle body and what was is your total power goal using those specific throttles. I am thinking that size will give it alot of midrange torque
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Erik:
I was just joking of course ..Your engine has a deep sound that the F1 don't along with the ripping silk sound they have without spinning at astronomical speeds. What logic/ formula are you using in determining the size of the throttle body and what was is your total power goal using those specific throttles. I am thinking that size will give it alot of midrange torque
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I know In my early research I ran across a chart that indicated that these TBs (42MM throttle plate) should support around 400 - 425 hp. I don't have that url here at work, but I can dig it up for you when I get home. On my own car, I really don't care if it has any more power than the stock setup, as I'm more interested in the look (show car/cruiser). but for other projects there is certainly room to make more power with this ITB setup, by using bigger cams and injectors etc. I expect it would be benificial to play with intake stack length as well.
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-07-2008).] IP: Logged |
Erik
Member Posts: 5045
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
I know In my early research I ran across a chart that indicated that these TBs (42MM throttle plate) should support around 400 - 425 hp. I don't have that url here at work, but I can dig it up for you when I get home.
Russ544
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That would be great. I have for some time been concidering building my own ITB and seeing the success you've had really encourages me to take the time to do one for my swap
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Erik:
That would be great. I have for some time been concidering building my own ITB and seeing the success you've had really encourages me to take the time to do one for my swap
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There is some good infor on this site: http://www.jenvey-dynamics.com/~Mansyss.htm
including the information I mentioned about sizing (see below). I see that my 42MM bodies will actually support 448 hp on a V-8, so I should be good .
from the jenvey site:
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"What is the best throttle body diameter?
Factors influencing size are; Power output, RPM, cylinder head design, cylinder capacity, position of the throttle body in the inlet tract and position of the injector.
Choice of bore size is a balanced compromise resulting from the following;
1) A larger bore leads to lower flow resistance, but obeying the laws of diminishing returns.
2) A smaller bore leads to better throttle control and response (never underestimate) and improved fuel mixing.
3) The system should be considered in total - from (at least) trumpet flange to cylinder and proportioned accordingly.
Basic references for BHP per cylinder, assuming ca 120mm from butterfly to valve head and a max of 9,000 rpm are;
Up to 30 - 30mm, up to 33 - 32mm, up to 39 - 35mm, up to 46 - 38mm, up to 51 - 40mm, up to 56 - 42mm
Up to 65 - 45mm, up to 74 - 48mm, up to 80 - 50mm, up to 87 - 52mm, up to 93 - 54mm.
These power figures may be increased by up to 10% in a purpose - designed and well proportioned system.
As butterfly to valve distance increases, butterfly size will need to increase in proportion to system taper and vice versa.
Lower revving engines and those with injectors placed before the butterfly will generally accept a larger body."
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The Megasquirt site that Will posted back on page 1 was a big help to me as well. (thanks Will)
You're doing a 4 cam 3.4. correct?? how about using 3 "halves" of similar Suzuki TBs as I used, but turn them "sideways" in order to match your V-6 configuration? kind of a 3x2 setup .
If I can be of any "technical assistance" on your project, give me a hollar anytime.
Cheers,
Russ544
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It's just like building a canoe out of a log. first you cut down a tree........ then you cut off everything that doesn't look like a canoe.[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-07-2008).] IP: Logged |
Erik
Member Posts: 5045
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
You're doing a 4 cam 3.4. correct?? how about using 3 "halves" of similar Suzuki TBs as I used, but turn them "sideways" in order to match your V-6 configuration? kind of a 3x2 setup .
If I can be of any "technical assistance" on your project, give me a hollar anytime.
Cheers,
Russ544 |
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Thanks for the info Russ,
I am doing a N* as well. I do have a 96 3.4 DOHC that would sound lovely with the 3x2 setup although I would do it at a later date after the N*. My goal is to have it running by spring so, I will certainly be contacting you for advice. Can't wait to hear yours installed with headers
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Erik
Member Posts: 5045
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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bump for a fantastic threadIP: Logged |
Erik
Member Posts: 5045
From: Des Moines, Iowa
Registered: Jul 2002
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bump for a fantastic threadIP: Logged |
AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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I am borrowing some pictures for an example. Thanks A.J.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by AJxtcman:
I am borrowing some pictures for an example. Thanks A.J. |
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umm... ....ok. 
I'm still collecting material and parts to compleat more of these injection setups. I live in Podunkville, and have no local source for aluminum or stainless, so I went on-line and found a good outfit to work with. I've made a couple orders from them already and have received great service each time: http://www.speedymetals.com/default.aspx . I'll be making the injector bungs from 304 stainless, for corosion resistance (prototype was steel). the flanges should be ready from the water jet cutter by late this week, and I finally (think I) found a source for the plugs to enable me to use the Suzuki TPS. this will save a lot of machine work which was required to adapt the Cadillac TPS. good things come to those who wait . stay tuned.
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-15-2008).] IP: Logged |
AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
umm... ....ok.
I'm still collecting material and parts to compleat more of these injection setups. I live in Podunkville, and have no local source for aluminum or stainless, so I went on-line and found a good outfit to work with. I've made a couple orders from them already and have received great service each time: http://www.speedymetals.com/default.aspx . I'll be making the injector bungs from 304 stainless, for corosion resistance (prototype was steel). the flanges should be ready from the water jet cutter by late this week, and I finally (think I) found a source for the plugs to enable me to use the Suzuki TPS. this will save a lot of machine work which was required to adapt the Cadillac TPS. good things come to those who wait . stay tuned.
Russ544
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http://www.cadillacforums.c...rthstar-ls1-pcm.html
Post #95IP: Logged |
Dragon1
Member Posts: 878
From: Racine,Wisconsin
Registered: Sep 2002
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Very impressive,
You can also try Metal Express. They are in New Berlin also. We use both Speedy and Metal Express at work...just realized, your in 'tosa and I'm in Racine, not too far apart...
Dragon1/Brian[This message has been edited by Dragon1 (edited 01-15-2008).] IP: Logged |
AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
umm... ....ok.
I'm still collecting material and parts to compleat more of these injection setups. I live in Podunkville, and have no local source for aluminum or stainless, so I went on-line and found a good outfit to work with. I've made a couple orders from them already and have received great service each time: http://www.speedymetals.com/default.aspx . I'll be making the injector bungs from 304 stainless, for corosion resistance (prototype was steel). the flanges should be ready from the water jet cutter by late this week, and I finally (think I) found a source for the plugs to enable me to use the Suzuki TPS. this will save a lot of machine work which was required to adapt the Cadillac TPS. good things come to those who wait . stay tuned.
Russ544
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Carbon Fiber?
My dad was a Fiber glasser He is retired now. He owned his the company and my brothers still work at the business. They have done a little carbon fiber work. They say it is the same as fiber glassing. IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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It was so dang cold today I never did get the shop warm enough for me to function normally in it. regardless.... I did get one throttle "cam" designed and fabricated, and the patterns made to make more. I started with the Suzuki throttle pulley (on the left) and removed the (spot welds) outer plate from it. to the remains I welded on the stack of three fabricated pieces shown, to form a new "pulley" for the throttle cable to run in. the shape of this new pulley will allow for finer control of engine speeds at part throttle. A new bracket will need to be fabricated to hold the throttle cable case (tomorrow). I went this way insted of adapting the GM part, like on the prototype, so I wouldn't have to source the used GM parts. effort is about a wash between the two systems.
A little spit pollish and paint and it should be good to go.
R[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-20-2008).] IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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One of the main reasons that I'm able to do the things I do is that I have no patience with waiting for others to do work for me. I just learn to do everything myself and I find that I get less heartburn. today I have heartburn. the water jet guy said he could have 4 flanges cut for me by thursday or friday. friday eve he had this one done.
The quality of cut is very impressive, although even this one needs some minor adjusting of the cut program, as a couple holes are off a tad more than I'm willing to accept. just another delay that I'll have to deal with. 
In the meantime I finished up the throttle brackets, except for paint. the TB set on the left has the stock bike setup.
tomorrow at work I'll see if I can get some lathe work done, plus I'll be watching a couple of tpi setups on E-bay for the Chev ITB project. too many toys.... too little time.
Russ[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-20-2008).] IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Looks great. You need to borrow/steal a CNC mill.
Are you not using the throttle stop?[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 01-20-2008).] IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
Looks great. You need to borrow/steal a CNC mill.
Are you not using the throttle stop?
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Thanks Ryan.
If I could get someone to CNC the flanges for $33.00 each I'd be all over it .
The throttle stops are incorporated in the back 1/2 of the Bike throttle wheel, which I've kept intact. it has full throttle as well as "idle" stops on both banks.
I might be twisting your ear, if you don't mind, on another project I have brewing (as if I need more). I want to build an ITB setup for the SBC. I plan to (try and) use a GM tpi manifold base as a foundation. I'll need some dirrection on the ecm. it sounds like some 3rd gen guys are using the 7730 for modified tpi engines with success.
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-20-2008).] IP: Logged |
motoracer838
Member Posts: 2138
From: Edgewater Co. USofA
Registered: Jan 2006
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
Thanks Ryan.
If I could get someone to CNC the flanges for $33.00 each I'd be all over it .
The throttle stops are incorporated in the back 1/2 of the Bike throttle wheel, which I've kept intact. it has full throttle as well.
as "idle" stops on both banks.
I might be twisting your ear, if you don't mind, on another project I have brewing (as if I need more). I want to build an ITB setup for the SBC. I plan to (try and) use a GM tpi manifold base as a foundation. I'll need some dirrection on the ecm. it sounds like some 3rd gen guys are using the 7730 for modified tpi engines with success.
Russ544
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Hey Russ, Have you looked into having the parts laser cut, I have a shop here that does work for me at what I would have to call "stupid prices". They are always busy but if their pricing scale is the same for their volume customers I don't know how they stay in biz. I just had a couple of spacers made that move a motorcycle cylinder up to accomodate a stroker crankshaft, the price, including scaning the gasket and converting the image into code for the laser to run, was $20, that's not a typo.
Cheers Beers n Gearz. Joe IP: Logged |
AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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You said that you would set one of for me for $130. 
Ok I think it may be I need to add another 0 to that.
Nice work Too bad I have that Blower. It may be worth $1300 to me just for the show.IP: Logged |
crzyone
Member Posts: 3521
From: Alberta, Canada
Registered: Dec 2000
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This is a wicked build thread, just read it from beginning to end. Nice work Russ.
I would love to do the same thing to my engine, maybe my Big Stuff 3 ecu will respond as nicely as your commander did. I'm not sure how much larger the 2000+ intake ports are than the earler northstars but it would be one major issue I would have to work out. The TB to intake port transition would be tricky. I might have better luck with slightly larger ITB setup but I'm not sure if anything would work as nicely as the bike setup.
You have me really thinking now. I like the idea of a boosted Northstar, but the idea of 400-450hp NA sounds pretty good too. Headwork, cams, ITB and some headers. I believe that is a pretty realistic power level. It's probably worth the effort just for the sound. IP: Logged |
Gokart Mozart
Member Posts: 6681
From: Metro Detroit
Registered: Mar 2003
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Sorry. My mind started to wander and I had to post this.
Get two of either of these:
1987 Honda Goldwing GL1200 carbs with throttle body
 
1986 Honda GL1200 SE-i fuel injection
 [This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 01-22-2008).] IP: Logged |
kawana
Member Posts: 2215
From: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Registered: May 2007
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sorry i dont know much about ITB's but i have 2 questions, what (if any) power gains would you get from using these? How do you keep crap from getting into the engine?IP: Logged |
crzyone
Member Posts: 3521
From: Alberta, Canada
Registered: Dec 2000
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Power gains depend on how restrictive the stock intake is.
For air filtration he could build a box over the inlets of the ITBs with a large K&N filter.
Here is an example
 [This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 01-22-2008).] IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by crzyone:
Power gains depend on how restrictive the stock intake is.
For air filtration he could build a box over the inlets of the ITBs with a large K&N filter.
Here is an example
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As to HP gains I don't expect a lot with the stock engine. 10-15 hp perhaps. throttle response is improved, but HP will be more dependent on your choice of cams, exhaust, etc. these TBs should support over 425 HP however.
Wow. those airboxes look awsome cryzone! for my own car I plan to make a single airbox that covers both banks of TBs. A single inlet will connect with the filter box that I built previously for this car.
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-22-2008).] IP: Logged |
crzyone
Member Posts: 3521
From: Alberta, Canada
Registered: Dec 2000
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They look good, I would also build a box that covers all of them.
Now I want to find a core engine so I can start fabbing things up for my engine. Would be so much easier for building headers and ITBs.
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by crzyone:
They look good, I would also build a box that covers all of them.
Now I want to find a core engine so I can start fabbing things up for my engine. Would be so much easier for building headers and ITBs.
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sending PMIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Russ544:
As to HP gains I don't expect a lot with the stock engine. 10-15 hp perhaps.
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I don't know... I got a gain of 6hp and 10lb-ft just by increasing the stock throttle dia by 5mm. (to 80mm)
You have 8 throttle bodies 40mm in diameter. That's the equivalent of a single 113mm throttle blade.
PLUS, you have fixed some of the problems with the plastic intake (IMHO). I would not be surprised if you picked up 20-25hp or more.
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Fiero STS
Member Posts: 1626
From: Wyoming, MN. usa
Registered: Nov 2001
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I think I would get 8 motorcycle K&N filters to fit each throttle because it would look way cool.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Fiero STS:
I think I would get 8 motorcycle K&N filters to fit each throttle because it would look way cool. |
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Although I would like to "advertise" the itb on the car, and a box would hide some of that, (1) I want to attempt to keep everything under the decklid and (2) I feel it's important to have the added benifit of the cold air intake which is built into my IMSA. I'm thinking of using a plexiglass top cover on my air box just so you can see the throats easier, but that's still down the road a piece............. individual filters sticking out of the decklid would be pretty good "advertisment" also I guess
Russ544IP: Logged |
Fiero STS
Member Posts: 1626
From: Wyoming, MN. usa
Registered: Nov 2001
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I like reading and seeing pictures of what you do . I also like the fact that you do things just to do them and there doesn't need to be huge HP gains. ITB's with volocity stacks or independant air filters would deffinetly give a real exotic look! I also undestand the need for CAI and being able to close the hood. Maybe a removable shaker hood. Covered for daily driving and easily removed for that real nifty look.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Fiero STS:
I like reading and seeing pictures of what you do . I also like the fact that you do things just to do them and there doesn't need to be huge HP gains. ITB's with volocity stacks or independant air filters would deffinetly give a real exotic look! I also undestand the need for CAI and being able to close the hood. Maybe a removable shaker hood. Covered for daily driving and easily removed for that real nifty look. |
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Wow... someone who understands the way I think..... that's scary .
Actually... one of my random thoughts on the intake subject involved a shaker hood with a clear plexi top cover, through which you could see velocity stacks ( I could even have them chromed for Ryan ) that would solve pretty much all the issues and desires I have for the system.
Russ544IP: Logged |
crzyone
Member Posts: 3521
From: Alberta, Canada
Registered: Dec 2000
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I was thinking about this. Build a box with a large square K&N on the top that draws from a mustang scoop on the rear deck. Have it sealed so it only draws cold air from outside. You would have the added benefit of hearing those ITBs at full song from outside the car. If I do this, that is what I plan to do.
Maybe have the whole top of the box as one or 2 large filters.
Kind of like this, with the top sealed to the deck when its closed to draw in air from the mustang scoop.
I am only considering the mustang scoop because it will protect the air filter from water or whatever from getting into the intake. Using it for more of a cover than anything.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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I got 4 flanges back from the water jet cutter on Friday, so I've been able to return to working on the manifold portion of this project. As I showed earlier, I built jigs to cut the manifold tube pieces, and to hold them in position wile being welded into the flanges, but what I really needed was a way to form the flange end of the tubes quicker and cleaner. the old hammer and dolly method just wasn't gona' cut it. Rube Goldberg may have paid a visit to my shop today, but hey... it works... and it works quite well actually. The piece on the bottom in the first pic holds the top of the tubes in position. I turned out the holes on my lathe so they fit very precicely over the tubes, so as not to distort them. the square sections on the top piece wedges down over the other end of the tubes, two at a time. BTW: the ports on a Northstar are evenly spaced, so it doesn't matter that I'm using the center two ports in this spare flange (that gave it's life for this jig).
With the two jig pieces slipped together with two manifold tubes in place, and the whole thing clamped firmly in a vise by the flange welded to the bottom......,
a BFH (big favorite hammer) is used to drive the two parts of the jig together, therby forming the end of the tubes. the angle iron provides a place to persuade the device.
The picture below is just the way it comes out after a few blows of the hammer. with only minor work with a body hammer it makes a really nice fitting piece, ready for trimming and welding into a new flange..
Check out the lower port in the pic. I find it amazing that this was cut with a jet of water. the detail and smoothness of the cut is pretty amazing.
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-27-2008).] IP: Logged |
kawana
Member Posts: 2215
From: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Registered: May 2007
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i like the box + mustang scoop idea, you could always get the individual filters for car show's or w/eIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Russ, are you a metal fabricator by day or something? You are a genius. IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18659
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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mmm favor?
Take this pic again, but this time with a tape measure starting from the head/intake deck:
I want to see how much room you have before you hit something.[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 01-27-2008).] IP: Logged |
cptsnoopy
Member Posts: 1855
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
mmm favor?
Take this pic again, but this time with a tape measure starting from the head/intake deck:
I want to see how much room you have before you hit something.
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Nothing a sawzall to the decklid won't fix...
Russ, I have the Aurora metal fuel rail. Do you need it sent to you?
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Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
Russ, are you a metal fabricator by day or something? You are a genius. |
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Ha ha. no, actually I sell and repair outdoor power equipment by day, but I've been doing that for 30+ years (my own shop for 27) and the challenge is pretty much non-existant, so I do this stuff on the weekends to stimulate my brain. I'm no genius. far from it. I just find it easy to visualize mechanical things, and have the ability to actually build them. some even work . In the same way you find computer stuff easy, I find this stuff easy. it's all in yur point of reference I guess. You're a genius to me in your ability to reprogram a 20 year old ECM that was made for a sbc and have it run a Northstar better than the Northstar computer did.
I'll get the pic you requested later today. I have the injectors off the test engine now, as I needed to make measurements for the jigs and such.
edit: on to page 6
Cheerio,
Russ544[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 01-27-2008).] IP: Logged |
