I wonder the same thing.
Whats the down side of using the transaxel?
Many engines have the bolt holes already in place for the transaxel support bearing, and if they dont, it's fairly easy to manifacture something that bolts on to the cradle.
I se a fiew pounds less unsuspended weight with the shorter right side axel, hence plus on the handling.
Is there any other downside than the fact one will have to solve the mount for the transaxel suport bearing?

I'm with you Kristian V, but we must be missing something. Hopefully someone will enlighten us.

quote Originally posted by TG oreiF 8891: I'm with you Kristian V, but we must be missing something. Hopefully someone will enlighten us.

I got the part where Joseph Upson wants to keep the costum made parts minimal in favor of already existing parts from the shelf.
And i agree 100%. The less manifacturing special parts, the easier the swap will be for all of us.
But i don't think there will be any more special solutions using the Intermediate axel. It will basicly bolt straight on. I was down in my basement, having a look at the extra 2.8 Fiero stock engine i have. (It's sold, just not picked up yet.) And look what i found!


Closing in! Look by the yellow arows i painted in there. Threaded holes, never used on a stock Fiero. But still there. Those are for the Intermediat shaft support bearing.
I'm not sure they are exactly aligned with the position of the Saab intermediat axel, but they are there.


So question remains, is there any other downsides for the intermediate axel? Reason why not use it?
Just a simple reflection, i belive GM used the long right side axel just because it was a cheaper solution. Saves one bearing and a bracket.
I'm not for, nor against the intermediate axel. Just wana go the easiest way to solve this, but still curious if there is a reason not to go either way.

EDIT:
The right side axel will still be just as long, so if there was any torque-steer before, going with a intermediate axel you would still have torque-steer. Unless i missed something, i belive the only benefit from using the intermediate shaft is the fact there will be several pounds less unsuspended weight. Since the outer half moves with the wheel movement.

[This message has been edited by Kristian V (edited 02-12-2007).]

I pulled this picture off the web a while back, don't know where I found it. As you can see, there is an interference problem with the CV joint and the Fiero front motor mount bracket. I plan to use the intermediate shaft with my 3.4 DOHC, but I'm going to use the two Lumina motor mounts to eliminate that front mount.



(Edit for larger pic)
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1988 GT, 5-speed, white, beechwood leather, 3.4 DOHC 6-speed installation in process. Really. I am working on it.

[This message has been edited by sspeedstreet (edited 02-12-2007).]

Smal picture. But if i se corectly, they modifyed the bracket by making a notch in it so the axel gets past it.
That would ofcorse be one of those un-wanted modifications.
Does the lumina mounts fit straight on, without any modifications to cradle or the mounts?

Torque steer is what happens when you use too much power in a front wheel drive application. With the different lengths of the shafts, the steering wheel will turn in one direction when enough gas is applied, or in minor cases, will not return to center when accelerating. In a rear wheel drive, this doesn't happen, however when your rear suspension starts wearing out, you will notice the car steering just a little bit when transitioning from on to off throttle. It is probably a little easier on the rear suspension to have the intermediate shaft but that is a much longer term problem.

The intermediate shaft serves to make the two outer shafts about equal lengths. Because the intermediate shaft is rigidly bolted to the driveline, the forces on the two outboard shafts are more equal (actually equal when done right) and the torque steer problem basically goes away. Until enough power is once again introduced, then some of the problems come back...

For the time being it's an added headache given what already needs to be done and as someone has already mentioned the Fiero is not proned to much if any noticeable torque steer which by the name suggests it's mainly a frt wheel drive configuration problem. The long axle is thicker than average which helps reduce the amount of twisting it is subject to. The biggest advantage that can occur to make it a much more favorable option is for the end of the intermediate shaft to easily accomodate one of GMs axle assymblys already in production. Otherwise I see it as more unnecessary work.

So does anyone know what the intermediate shaft will accept, as far as axles go?

quote Originally posted by TG oreiF 8891: So does anyone know what the intermediate shaft will accept, as far as axles go?

I'm looking into acquiring both complete lf and right axles myself to find out. So far I know one of the female end chrysler axles with the same number of splines has the right pitch, so if the end of the intermediate shaft has the same number of splines required by the transmission that may be a viable option. I have a data base of several hundred axle specs to help mix and match existing parts.

quote Originally posted by Kristian V: That would of course be one of those un-wanted modifications.

Agreed.

quote Does the lumina mounts fit straight on, without any modifications to cradle or the mounts?

No, definitely not. I have a spare cradle that will get new mounting points welded on.

One thing to concider if going the intermediate axel route.
Since most transverse engines seems to have the bolt holes for the suport bearing on the side, does the engines have the holes at the same distance from the transmision-end to the holes? (Is it a standard length?) If so, there would only be one model bracket, and it's most likely a standard "on the shelf part."
If not, thats one of those un-wanted mods, again.
Could we have some measurements?
I'l start. The original 2.8 V6 has 332mm (13.07") from where the bellhousing attaches to the engine, to center of closest upper hole.

Now we need the measurements for all posible engines used in swaps. Personaly i'm curious of the 3800SC.

EDIT:
I just got of the phone, talked to a special department at Saab in Trollhättan that sales used parts frĺm there experimental cars.
The price for the complete axels where outrageous, but they where realy helpfull.
All the Saab 9-5's have the same axels, both side axels are same length (They wanted $215 US each, plus $100 US for the intermediate.)
There where a special version called "Viggen" that had a thicker intermediate axel, otherwise they are all the same.
The early 9-3's (94 or) 95 to 98 also has same diameter/splines. The axels are shorter since 9-3 has a shorter axelwidth.
Now i have to leave for work. Hopefully i can sneak of to the phone, to order the axels from a junkyard instead. Probobly cost less than half of the above price.)

[This message has been edited by Kristian V (edited 02-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Kristian V: EDIT: I just got of the phone, talked to a special department at Saab in Trollhättan that sales used parts frĺm there experimental cars. The price for the complete axels where outrageous, but they where realy helpfull. All the Saab 9-5's have the same axels, both side axels are same length (They wanted $215 US each, plus $100 US for the intermediate.) There where a special version called "Viggen" that had a thicker intermediate axel, otherwise they are all the same. The early 9-3's (94 or) 95 to 98 also has same diameter/splines. The axels are shorter since 9-3 has a shorter axelwidth. Now i have to leave for work. Hopefully i can sneak of to the phone, to order the axels from a junkyard instead. Probobly cost less than half of the above price.)

You think the cost is high there, wait until the packaging, handling, shipping and because it's a Saab fee is tacked on here in the US unless you buy it used. I would caution against buying the 9-5 axles on the premise that it did not come with the 6spd and my searching yesterday suggested that even the 5spd 9-3 uses the same axles as the 6spd so if you are buying sight unseen opt for the exact parts. Mounting up the intermediate shaft really isn't that much extra work given the end result it will produce and for our application the intermediate shaft used on the late 80s to early 90s V6 Beretta may help with locating a bracket for stabilizing, otherwise it's doable just extra work that depending on the specs may in fact be well worth it.

I belive the cost for me will be higher for the parts from a junk yard than for you guys in the US.
There surely must be plenty of Saab's in the junk yards in the US..?
The 9-5 have been around since late 90's, i'm not sure they use the same modell name in the US (I hope they do)
They all used the same axels, question is, are the axels including the intermediate axel long enough for us?
And if its to long, the intermediate axel from 9-3(900) 94-98 will fit to, it's 25mm (1") shorter.

If the Saab axels are long enough, i started to think about the x-over to Fiero parts. The Saab axel is hopefully thicker than the Fiero axel, i was thinking about letting a machine shop grind down the ends to Fiero dimensions with Fiero splines. Right now it looks like the easiest way to go.

That would leave the intermediate axel bearing and support bracket to solve. I will hopefully have a set of Saab axels in my posesion next weekend.
I won't buy the once from www.sdcc.se. They wanted 4500 SEK for used parts. I called a junkyard and they said 2400 SEK, Still to much. I pulled some strings today, now all i can do is wait. I'm aiming for 1500 SEK or less, for a complete axel set from wheel to wheel. (SEK to USD = /7, hence 1500SEK = 214USD)

quote Originally posted by Kristian V: I belive the cost for me will be higher for the parts from a junk yard than for you guys in the US. There surely must be plenty of Saab's in the junk yards in the US..? The 9-5 have been around since late 90's, i'm not sure they use the same modell name in the US (I hope they do) They all used the same axels, question is, are the axels including the intermediate axel long enough for us? And if its to long, the intermediate axel from 9-3(900) 94-98 will fit to, it's 25mm (1") shorter. If the Saab axels are long enough, i started to think about the x-over to Fiero parts. The Saab axel is hopefully thicker than the Fiero axel, i was thinking about letting a machine shop grind down the ends to Fiero dimensions with Fiero splines. Right now it looks like the easiest way to go. That would leave the intermediate axel bearing and support bracket to solve. I will hopefully have a set of Saab axels in my posesion next weekend. I won't buy the once from www.sdcc.se. They wanted 4500 SEK for used parts. I called a junkyard and they said 2400 SEK, Still to much. I pulled some strings today, now all i can do is wait. I'm aiming for 1500 SEK or less, for a complete axel set from wheel to wheel. (SEK to USD = /7, hence 1500SEK = 214USD)

I ordered a right side axle today that is supposed to have the intermediate shaft attached. When I searched for the 9-5 axles they came up as being different than the 9-3 axles as a search for both yielded two separate listings so I decided not to chance it. The intermediate shaft is the same for both apparently but I wanted to go with what was paired with the F40.

For now we should stick with the 9-5 axels, since its a wider car. Only if the axels are to long do we need to look at the 9-3 axels.
If the 9-5 and 9-3 axels would been listed the same, then something would have been wrong, the 9-3 is a smaler car, and it has shorter axels.

I did some searching and based on 2003 Saab (random year choice) and 1988 Fiero GT (because that's what I have):

Saab 9-3 front track: 1453 mm

Saab 9-5 front track: 1521 mm

Fiero GT rear track: 1526 mm

Pontiac G6 front track: 1524 mm

So indeed, the 9-5 is closer to the Fiero in width. The question for me remains; does a 9-5 automatic use an intermediate shaft?

[This message has been edited by sspeedstreet (edited 02-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Kristian V: For now we should stick with the 9-5 axels, since its a wider car. Only if the axels are to long do we need to look at the 9-3 axels. If the 9-5 and 9-3 axels would been listed the same, then something would have been wrong, the 9-3 is a smaler car, and it has shorter axels.

I don't get your reasoning for going with the axles for the wider vehicle given the size of the Fiero and the near certainty that they are not drop ins anyway, you also forget that the F40s left side displaces to the left 2 inches at the seal relative to the Getrag, requiring a shorter shaft in theory anyway, that's two strikes against them, the most important part of the shafts are the intermediate shaft, inboard joints and the number of splines on the axle that connects the inboard and outboard joints in an effort to find the appropriate length shaft with the correct number of splines to connect the Saab inboard joint to the Fiero outboard joint. GM has used a different number of splines on the same fwd transmissions in the past like the 440T4 as an upgrade or improvement so there is still the risk of getting the wrong part for the right application via a technicallity so I'm sticking with production models for the application in an effort to avoid wasting cash on parts I can't use.

If you plan to have the splines on the shaft reworked I believe it will also need to be hardened otherwise it may be a problem later on.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: I don't get your reasoning for going with the axles for the wider vehicle given the size of the Fiero and the near certainty that they are not drop ins anyway, you also forget that the F40s left side displaces to the left 2 inches at the seal relative to the Getrag, requiring a shorter shaft in theory anyway, that's two strikes against them, the most important part of the shafts are the intermediate shaft, inboard joints and the number of splines on the axle that connects the inboard and outboard joints in an effort to find the appropriate length shaft with the correct number of splines to connect the Saab inboard joint to the Fiero outboard joint. GM has used a different number of splines on the same fwd transmissions in the past like the 440T4 as an upgrade or improvement so there is still the risk of getting the wrong part for the right application via a technicallity so I'm sticking with production models for the application in an effort to avoid wasting cash on parts I can't use. If you plan to have the splines on the shaft reworked I believe it will also need to be hardened otherwise it may be a problem later on.

The reason i'm going for the 9-5 axels at this point is in hope of the fact that they will be long enough, easier to make an axel shorter than make it longer. I don't wana cut it, i want it to be the propper leangth from the start, but one has to start somewhere. (Also all 9-5 axels fit the F40, while im not sure all 9-3 axels does. The Saab forum i gatherd my info from has been down for two days now, i will post more, when i know more.) If the 9-5 parts are to long, i can measure how much to long. Then i can se if i can use 9-3 part instead, or maybee even a Opel part. If not... Then i have to get the closest one machined to fit. I to, will do my very best to find parts that bolt straight on. Reason being, if in the future i brake something, it's a lot easier to find the propper part and just install it, than to buy, then have it machined to fit.
You pointed out the fact that the F40 displaces the left side axel 2 inches, that might be reason to look at the 9-3 axel instead. (It's shorter, i don't know how much yet though. But i will try and find out.)

We might think a litle bit different about this, i think we do.
For me it's just as important to build it strong, than to just make it fit. While (Correct me if i'm wrong.) youre looking to join the parts where ever they will fit together.
Nothing wrong with either aproach. It all depends on what you need the axels for. I will end up using the axels for way over 400Nm engine, hence i have to prioritice (<-Does that word exist, or did i just make it up?) streangth. The Saab axels are wider in diameter, thats where i got the idéa to go saab all the way if possible, and just have the outer ends machined to fit the Fiero.
This far it's all just a thinking experiment anyway, i have not held a singel part in my hand, exept for the F40 it self.
The things i know so far, is that the Saab ppl doesent have much problems with axels breaking, guys going on the quarter mile with engines producing +600hp and 600Nm (aprox 450 ft-lbs) of torque. Transmisions they have blown a fiew, but the axels mostly worked fine.

The one thing we do have in comon though, is that we both try and solve this as cheap as possible.
And if i end up spending some extra $$$ on a fiew axels i won't be able to use, i will gladly "take one for the team". Other ppl in here has made there mistakes in the past on other isues, costing them money, still they posted "what worked" here so the rest of us didn't have to "invent the wheel all over again" If it wasn't for this forum, i would never got the idéa to inplant a 3800SC in my Fiero (I didn't even know such engine existed before.) So if i can help out with this, i'm happy.

Last, about the hardening part. To machine a hardend part, it's both easyer and better to un-harden the part. (Heating it to 600-650 Celcius, and let it cool slowly.) Have it machined and then hardend again. (Heating it to above 900 Celcius and cooled fast.) Most machine shops can do that.

[This message has been edited by Kristian V (edited 02-14-2007).]

Actually I'm oriented to strength also not just making things fit, If you are going to have the axle shortened then it would be to your advantage to start with the longer axle, I've received so much skepticism in the past about weakening hardened parts by heating them that I'm not going to take that chance, and so far my axle options are equal to or stronger than the stock axles on the Fiero including the two I had custom made from a higher grade of metal. I have a good list of available GM axle shafts and their lenghts and other important specs for them and since the power levels I intend to reach will boreder on 400hp/400 lb/ft I need the added security of an unmodified original or another custom piece. The 3800 naturally aspirated only has about 10 lb/ft more power than the 3500 that I'll be installing and the weight difference probably makes them even so we share the same concerns:

200@5600rpm, 220lb/ft@3200 for my engine from an 05 G6 vs.
200@5200rpm, 230lb/ft@4000 for the 05 3800 from a Grand Prix

Those are stock figures and since my engine has a performance cam ground to turbocharged specs with a 6500 rpm range installed It will be deep into the 300 plus power level at the boost pressures I intend to run (10-14psi) using intercooling and water injection for added detonation resistancel. I have ordered a Zeitronix wideband datalogger for a serious tuning effort and intend to use an exhaust temp sensor with it for added accuracy, so I have to lean towards stronger axle parts. I wouldn't be surprised if axles from both of the Saab models are fairly stout since both cars out weigh the avg Fiero by 500lbs or more.

I found this to give you an example of why it's important for me to error on the safe side look at the style of axle for some of the earlier model cars: http://www.discountswedpart...~Assembly_list.html. I'm a student and can't afford to take anymore hits for the team, I need to get it right the first time.

Here is the site I still have to contact in regards to parts availability that has a diagram of the axle: http://www.thesaabsite.com/93/93cvs03on.htm

Do some comparisons and look at the different stock numbers listed for the same part across both cars, I just checked again and the 9-5 and 9-3 uses a different intermediate shaft for the later model cars which because of its purpose you do not want to try and have shortened in addition to it not having been used with the F40, its possible longer length may even prove problematic in fitting to your engine with it being a 90 degree block instead of 60 regarding where it will mount on the engine.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-14-2007).]

Comparing parts will have to wait for one more day. My mind is already in bed. Body will soon folow.
First link was "error", second link worked, and i saw about the same prices as here in Sweden, How ever, to begin with, i wana build this from old junk parts, just to get it all to fit, when i have it all figured out, then i can go and buy some new parts, if needed. As anyone can se in above link brand new parts are out of the question for most ppl. You could get a decent and fully working Fiero GT for the price of the axels alone.

The later modell 9-3 has different intermediate shaft part number because it's shorter. The Saabforum is up again so i will continue to look for info on all the parts. I got PM from one of the more active persons in there, he wrote and told me to call him, and i will this weekend. He also had some usefull info about the clutch, flywheel and more.

I have a 87 cradle laying in my other garage, i will make room for it in the garage at home, and i will then set it up so that i can measure lengths of the shafts, i will start with the Fiero shafts thats on it. But since i dont have the original trany or V6 no more it will be a litle differcult to get it all right. I have the Fiero the F40 is ment for in here to, so i will have to improvise a bit, i can mount the F40 to the extra cradle and build it up with axels and wheel hubs. All i miss to complete the drive train on the cradle is the 3800SC.
I'we been in school for the better part of a year now, that is the reason i don't have the engine yet. Lack of founds.$$$ I have about two months left of school, then i'm of working again. and money for the engine will role in.

The 90 degree engine might make the intermediat shaft go very close to the engine. But i hope it will work out. I seen pics of V8 fieros with a intermediate shaft atached to the V8, and V8's are 90 degrees. It should work out, i will have to adress that when i get that far in my project. There is always the posibilityto have one costum made. But that's not the goal here. Possibly the last way out if nothing else works.

These are pics from Alex4mula's build thread.

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/077431.html

His is a V8 and the shaft fits fine.

Aight, I'll jump on this battle. I am working on mounting the F40 to a SC3800 to go into my '88GT. I'll get some pics and measurements tommorow or friday. The biggest concern I'm having is oil filter adapter location. I'm going with a remote setup, but even judging by some pictures of Fiero-x , this might be a problem (stealing your bandwidth ryan!)

My biggest concern is power handling. My 3800 is getting built (GT35R - 550hp built). Look for a build thread here shortly

quote Originally posted by RandomTask: ...Aight, I'll jump on this battle. I am working on mounting the F40 to a SC3800 to go into my '88GT. I'll get some pics and measurements tommorow or friday...

Good morning!
Realy looking forward to se those pics here. Since I will go the same route i'm realy interested in engine/tranny mounts and such. Please post a link as soon as you get your build thread going.
Have you sorted out the axel part? Atleast you have the intermediate shaft already in place.

My sentiments regarding rehardening the axles, I couldn't help but wonder why no one I talked to before having the custom parts made mentioned resplining my existing parts based on how easy it was sounding from your earlier posts. I believe it's a bit more involved than what sounds like the quenching process you were describing by heating and cooling which I think involves water as part of the process.

I'm still waiting on an axel I ordered to arrive and in the meantime have made plans to pick up a burnt 3.9L which will hopefully be in some useful enough shape to tear down and review to encourage the hardliners to break away from the iron head motors.

quote Originally posted by Kristian V: At school i had a interesting chat with one of the teachers about hardening axels. Not gona bore you with all the details right now. In short, the shafts may be allterd and then rehardend, but it requires special equipment, that not all machine shops have. Hence it will probobly cost more than i thought at first, if i go that route.

I would not consider cutting splines on a previously rolled splined shaft. The stock splines are rolled, not cut. The rolled splines are stronger do to the molecular alignment and such. If you were to cut a new spline on a stock shaft it would certainly be a weaker shaft than the stock shaft.


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[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-15-2007).]

The 9-3 axles are by no means weak from the looks of it, the shafts are about 2 inches in diameter and taper down to well over an inch at the transaxle however the boots will need to be removed at some point to observe the fit into the tripod and outboard joint. I'm now curious about what the 9-5 intermediate shaft looks like and whether it has a male end for a female joint instead of a male ended inboard joint such as what is observed in the picture. Another plus is the axle shaft is hollow and therefore can be cut at welded if a productive purpose can be found to do so.

Vow! you sure move fast.
What year and modell are those from?

Ive been gathering info and just waiting to get it confirmed. Since you already purchased axels i belive it's time to get it out even though im only about 95% sure that it's all correct. Here we go, ready or not.

quote Originally posted by Kristian V:All 9-5 axels do fit the F40. And the shafts them selves are all the same, alla models. How ever the tulip's are different diameter depending on what model they come from. The once from the "Turbo" models being the largest/strongest. All "new generation" 900/9-3 axels also fit the F40 (From 94 when the 900 got transverseengines.) The 900 axels (94-98) have smaler diameter shafts though.

The interesting part though, is the fact that the tulips are different size with the shafts staying the same. With a litle luck, there will be a tulip we can mount on the outer end of the intermediat shaft and from there go with a left side Fiero axel, fitting the tulip at the end of the intermediat shaft.
On the left side the tulip fits right in the trany.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: I'm now curious about what the 9-5 intermediate shaft looks like and whether it has a male end for a female joint instead of a male ended inboard joint such as what is observed in the picture. Another plus is the axle shaft is hollow and therefore can be cut at welded if a productive purpose can be found to do so.

From what i can tell, the 9-5 intermediate axel will look just the same, only 1" longer.

[This message has been edited by Kristian V (edited 02-16-2007).]

I was speaking of the roller tripod not the actual joint in regards to axle options, if the roller tripod found inside the inboard joint has a spline number characteristic of what the US cars have then it's just a matter of identifying the shaft that will work in the database I have. In the mean time I have to take a moment to pop open the joint and take a look see.

That is a complete right side axle assembly from an 03 9-3, what would really be promising is if the inboard joint at the intermediate shaft also properly fits directly into the transmission, I doubt it will but it would make since from a tooling stand point if it did, again I have to take it apart and see. Tomorrow I'm scheduled to go pick up the burnt 3900 V6 so it may be a day or two before I dig into the axle.

The Saab intermediate shaft calls for a male inboard joint with apparently the same number of splines as the transmission, I know Chrysler has a female inboard joint with the appropriate spline configuration but I don't know if they have a male inboard joint to match since I have no experience with their transmissions beyond the single Chrysler axle I have, if they do the Saab intermediate axle should be doable except for some work around the stabilizer bracket for the intermediate shaft. The Saab internal joint design appears to be completely incompatible with GM joints due to its design.

I finally got a hold of the G6 axles and on first count the axle shaft on first count is 33 splines, I've had a long day and need to be in bed in the next 15 min to prepare for another so I could have mis counted given the number of 32 spline shafts that GM lists. I did not note a 33 spline amongst the ones I have a listing for so I hope I'm wrong, if not the Ford aerostar and the some of the VW series vehicles have a 16-17" 33 spline shafts that may fit in place for at least one side since the left side of the tranny output seal is about 2 inches closer to the left. Another option for the right side is the Chrysler 28 spline female joint which will go on the intermediate shaft and since it shares the 32 spline configuration connecting it up shouldn't be a problem leaving the left side to tackle should my count be correct and it is a 33 spline axle shaft. I'll recount this weekend.

There are a few GM techs around here, if you can get on the horn and find out who makes these axles for GM so that individual parts can be ordered instead of an entire axle that would be a big help.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 03-01-2007).]

I'm still here, just nothing important to add right now. I have buy-threads out, and i keep eye on sales ads for the Saab axels.
About welding on the shafts. The weld it self will get just as strong, or even stronger than the shaft it self, how ever, the area closest to the weld, called "HAZ" in welding terms (Heat Affected Zone) will get weaker then the rest. So if possible, avoid welding on the shafts. It might work just fine, but going V8 or Supercharged, will stress the shaft a litle more than the stock engine.

quote Originally posted by Kristian V: I'm still here, just nothing important to add right now. I have buy-threads out, and i keep eye on sales ads for the Saab axels. About welding on the shafts. The weld it self will get just as strong, or even stronger than the shaft it self, how ever, the area closest to the weld, called "HAZ" in welding terms (Heat Affected Zone) will get weaker then the rest. So if possible, avoid welding on the shafts. It might work just fine, but going V8 or Supercharged, will stress the shaft a litle more than the stock engine.

Generally yes but lets keep assumption under control, first it takes a heck of a bit of power to twist an axle in two, second, measures can be taken to keep the amount of heat generated under control and third, I believe cutting the Saab tube style axle shaft (more like a drive shaft), inserting the inboard end of the Fiero axle shaft into it and doing a reinforced weld will hold up quite nicely. As I mentioned earlier the axle I had modified this way held up well behind the 350 and the guys that did the mod really didn't lay down as heavy a weld as I would like to have seen. In addition, I actually broke the weld on the driver side axle which was joined by a short tube also. They should have double welded it by adding and additional larger diam tube or just done a better job than they did. Since the axle was short it was subject to more shock with its limited ability to twist and the mild weld eventually broke.

At the moment we don't have many practical options and I think we should remain open to experiment and allow ideas to succeed or fail by testing rather than never leaving the drawing board due to speculation. The Fiero manual shift axles are pretty thick on the passenger side and the driverside axle can be replaced with a thicker production shaft.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 03-04-2007).]

I am planning to go the route of cutting the Saab axles, then joining them to my axles (I am actually throwing this 6 speed behind a 3.4L DOHC in a Lumina)..

Now, something interesting another person trying this transmission in a WBody, he told me the following:

quote well the diamater of the axle cups are the same on both the 284 and the 6-speed ones[axles]

..Not sure how useful that is for you all here..

Now, because I am doing this swap in a car significantly wider than a Fiero, I may be able to use an LHS axle as Joseph suggested to me in a PM at another board.. And then I can take and cut a 9-5 Axle and welding the tunbe to my axle at the left, also as he suggested.. I believe if done properly, the axle will hold up to the power, as i am not turboing my DOHC for some time..

..Just wanted to get in on this.. I ams till trying to absorb all of this, and the net time I am at the UPull it yard, I'll be leaving with an LHS CV axle.. My cheap yeard doesnt have a Saab with the axle I need near as I can tell however..

[This message has been edited by StEvEzAsYcHo (edited 03-04-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: At the moment we don't have many practical options and I think we should remain open to experiment and allow ideas to succeed or fail by testing rather than never leaving the drawing board due to speculation. The Fiero manual shift axles are pretty thick on the passenger side and the driverside axle can be replaced with a thicker production shaft.

Indeed!
I didn't mean "don't do it", what i meant was, if we have a choise, even a slightly more expensive one, we should avoid the welding part.
Done propper, a welded axel would ofcorce hold up for us, but i'm saying it's not the best way to go, as long as there is other options.
I am a welder by profesion. And it's just my recomendation, that we try and find alternate route as long as possible.

Joseph were you able to get that recount on the G6 axles? I just realized you mentioned you counted 33 splines

If not, I imagine you will be able to get that count when you get that much needed break you were talkin about!

It's 33 splines, what a headache, Moser does cold resplining to avoid heat fatigue or as Bugs Bunny would say Fa-ti-gue, so I'll probably send them out and have them cut to the proper length and resplined for the Fiero outboard joint.

I'm opposed to welding on the axles also but considering my experience with it working and the fact that I have almost as much money tied up in experimenting as I do productive construction I'm willing to compromise. I'm working on a student budget and it says weldem if you have to. Right now the most important thing is actually getting something in operation.

I'm also working on the camshaft issue with the 3900 which has been solved as long as the final checks and balances show there will not be a problem with the front camshaft bearing which is apparently a little wider and no problems with installing the earlier camshaft sprocket.

I contacted Delphi via email to see if it's possible to buy individual axle parts which would also help.

That IS a headache.. I think I'm going to look into getting some Aerostar axles, or modify the G6 axles, so it has the correct 33 spline on one end, and the 32 on the other side.. I'll also contact Moser about getting whatever axles I have resplined or have my own set made..

Headache indeed!

quote Originally posted by StEvEzAsYcHo: That IS a headache.. I think I'm going to look into getting some Aerostar axles, or modify the G6 axles, so it has the correct 33 spline on one end, and the 32 on the other side.. I'll also contact Moser about getting whatever axles I have resplined or have my own set made.. Headache indeed!

Nix the Aerostar and VW axles, I double checked and found that they have a different number of splines on both ends, if by chance one of the smaller GM cars has a short enough 33 splined axle it maybe possible to use it as is. I haven't completely disassembled the axle yet but from what I can see the outboard joint internals look like the Fieros, in which case if they are it would be a simple disassembly and reassemble with the 33 spline hub. Problem is as I mentioned earlier at some point I'm no longer at home so I can't get to the other parts to do a comparison at the moment.