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Author
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Topic: New ECM option for Northstar swappers
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ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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If you're using the auto it'll probably start in 2nd gear, have 50 codes, and run in torque reduction mode.
It will feel fast until you take it to a track and it runs mid-14's.IP: Logged |
Russ544
Member Posts: 2088
From: S.W. Oregon
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by AJxtcman:
Why can't you use a stock PCM? I am about 10 hours away from starting my Northstar Fiero. When I start a car it is road ready. It is finished. Full of coolant, oil, all line and hoses connected, ECT. I see no reason to start the car until it is this way. I can pull a northstar in about 45 minutes. I have pulled one tore it down measured cylinder bore tapper and out of round in every cylinder, then installed piston, and reinstalled it had it finished in one work day. This was on a friday and the we close at 6pm. I am using a 97-99 pcm and see no issues. |
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Whoooow. Wait a second.... if you can pull an N*, rebuild and re-install it, all in one work day,..... but you have 10- hours left before starting your N* Fiero.................... I guess that must mean you haven't even bothered to begin working on it yet cause you have plenty of time then, right??? 
Russ[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-06-2006).] IP: Logged |
Deabionni
Member Posts: 3501
From: Kalkaska, MI
Registered: Mar 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
If you're using the auto it'll probably start in 2nd gear, have 50 codes, and run in torque reduction mode.
It will feel fast until you take it to a track and it runs mid-14's. |
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I was thinking the same thing. It might work, but I doubt that it will work correctly. You'll most likely be running in "limp home" mode.
I'd love to see a build up thread of your install. IP: Logged |
Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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Well according to Jon Lagler he hasn't had *serious* issues using a factory PCM with automatic transmission... IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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OBDI or OBDII?IP: Logged |
Deabionni
Member Posts: 3501
From: Kalkaska, MI
Registered: Mar 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
OBDI or OBDII? |
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Towards the end of this thread he said:
...I am using a 98 pcm and it should work just fine. I am using a 2000+ trans with an IMS instead of the Range switch. I reworked both valve bodies, but the weight of the car may cause really harsh shifts. This will be the quickest shift I have ever installed in a 4T80E...
Using a '98 PCM would make it an OBDII.[This message has been edited by Deabionni (edited 12-07-2006).] IP: Logged |
Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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I think Jon was using OBDI controls. I don't think there's much difference in the list of things the PCM talks to, though.IP: Logged |
AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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I started getting into drive-ability and computer controls back in 1988 short time after that I went to work for a speed shop. This was a all out machine shop, Dyno, flow bench, combustion chamber duplicator. We built a lot of nascar tour engines. Greg Biffle work at this shop back then and his cars he ran in the winter heat series. We built a large number of street engines. We learned how to build engines for speed density systems aka MAP and mass/unit time systems aka MAF. We pioneered performance built engines that ran great and idled. We did a lot of tuned port vettes and that helped. Those customers had the cash flow to work with us to correct any problems. I moved to the Midwest in 92 and found out about rust. The extra time to deal with rust cut into my pay so I went to work at a dealership. Newer cars and less rust. In 1994 I was hired by Snap On to teach OBDII and I/M 240 courses at night. I currently work at a Cadillac Dealer and have made many friends at GM. The PCM that I am using could be programed for export. This would eliminate most of the I/M systems. At this time that is not the plan. These PCM's are hackable, but the cost is to much with out having the car finished. Instead I have chosen to foul the pcm into not running the test or installing a simulator in the case of the post O2 sensors. Having the proper training I know that the evap system will not run any test with a full tank of gas. So I install a resistor between the 5V ref wire and the PCM fuel level signal wire so the PCM thinks the car is full all the time. I am using an 99 Seville PASS III module to allow the car to run. Many companies sell class II signal duplicators. Basically you would put the after market module into learn mode and hit the door lock button or turn the key. The module would learn that coded message, so your remote start will work allow not only you to start the car, but the module to also interface with the car and allow the door locks to work off that same single wire. The traction torque message is no problem either.IP: Logged |
Sloshua71
Member Posts: 17
From: Gainesville, FL, USA
Registered: Apr 2005
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| | | quote | Originally posted by AJxtcman:
I started getting into drive-ability and computer controls back in 1988 short time after that I went to work for a speed shop. This was a all out machine shop, Dyno, flow bench, combustion chamber duplicator. We built a lot of nascar tour engines. Greg Biffle work at this shop back then and his cars he ran in the winter heat series. We built a large number of street engines. We learned how to build engines for speed density systems aka MAP and mass/unit time systems aka MAF. We pioneered performance built engines that ran great and idled. We did a lot of tuned port vettes and that helped. Those customers had the cash flow to work with us to correct any problems. I moved to the Midwest in 92 and found out about rust. The extra time to deal with rust cut into my pay so I went to work at a dealership. Newer cars and less rust. In 1994 I was hired by Snap On to teach OBDII and I/M 240 courses at night. I currently work at a Cadillac Dealer and have made many friends at GM. The PCM that I am using could be programed for export. This would eliminate most of the I/M systems. At this time that is not the plan. These PCM's are hackable, but the cost is to much with out having the car finished. Instead I have chosen to foul the pcm into not running the test or installing a simulator in the case of the post O2 sensors. Having the proper training I know that the evap system will not run any test with a full tank of gas. So I install a resistor between the 5V ref wire and the PCM fuel level signal wire so the PCM thinks the car is full all the time. I am using an 99 Seville PASS III module to allow the car to run. Many companies sell class II signal duplicators. Basically you would put the after market module into learn mode and hit the door lock button or turn the key. The module would learn that coded message, so your remote start will work allow not only you to start the car, but the module to also interface with the car and allow the door locks to work off that same single wire. The traction torque message is no problem either. |
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So are you saying that fooling a northstar computer into working properly only requires a resistor in the PCM fuel level signal wire and an aftermarket module to defeat the VATS system?
If so, which year northstar? Is EVERYTHING working perfect including trans control, etc? What systems have to be intact to make this work (ABS, factory trans, which O2 sensors, etc) Can it control engine only with a manual trans?
Thanks ahead for any answers.IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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I won't believe it 'till I see it. Dyno or especially track numbers that show it's not limping around?
| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
If you're using the auto it'll probably start in 2nd gear, have 50 codes, and run in torque reduction mode.
It will feel fast until you take it to a track and it runs mid-14's. |
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AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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Dtc's P0101 - P0103 MASS sensor. No modifcations
Dtc's p0105 - p0108 MAP sensor. No mdifications
Dct's P0111 - P0113 Intake air temp. No modificatios.
Dtc's P0116 - P0118 Engine coolant temp sensor. No modifications.
Dtc's P0120 - P0125 TPS. no Modifications.
Dtc P0125 ECT performance "thermostat". No modifications.
Dtc's P0131 - P0135 bank 1 O2 sensor. No Modifications
Dtc"s P0143 - P0147 Post converter O2 sensor **O2 sim added
Dtc's P0151 - P0155 bank 2 O2 sensor. No modifications.
Dtc's P0171 - P0175 fuel trim system. I replaced the fuel pump
I can keep listing all the code that can be set. If I find a code that will set I read the Condtions for running the DTC description. Like in the case of the evap codes. It list out 6 values that most be met and it can not have any of a list of 28 DTC's. The only value that I can change is the fuel level. To run the any of the EVAP test the fuel level must be between 10% and 89.8%. So then I just set the value to 95%. If I go over 100% it will st a DTC. IP: Logged |
Sloshua71
Member Posts: 17
From: Gainesville, FL, USA
Registered: Apr 2005
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So If I were to run a 96 northstar with factory computer, factory trans, no cadillac key, no secondary O2 sensors, non stock fuel tank, no ABS, no wheel speed sensors. What would I need to do to avoid the reduced torque mode and throwing codes?IP: Logged |
AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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Torque Management:
There are five instances when engine power reduction is used
During trans upshifts and downshifts
Heavy Acceleration from a standing start "more than 16MPH per second"
If Brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle
When the driver is performing Stress-inducing manuvers such as shifting into gear at high throttle "N drops"
Then we have traction control function. this uses a PWM signal that is easy to duplicate, but I don't think I need to I have another theory.IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Please do any extra explaining in another thread... this thread is about the 7730. Thanks,
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Sloshua71
Member Posts: 17
From: Gainesville, FL, USA
Registered: Apr 2005
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
Please do any extra explaining in another thread... this thread is about the 7730. Thanks,
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It sounded like from his original post that simply making the car think the gas tank was full would solve all stock ECM in another car issues. That is apparently far from true. Basically the way to use the stock Northstar ECM is to simulate every input the computer pays attention to. Including, VATS, secondary O2 sensors, ABS, trick the EGR system, transmission solenoids, etc... Doesnt sound like an easy OR cheap solution. Sorry for the threadjack. No more discussion needed.IP: Logged |
1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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bump, I have a '730 lyin around and searchin for a n* as we speak. Drew------------------
1985 GT Fastback 
Low Original Miles at 41,506!!!
01 Cavalier Z24 16" wheels
KYB shocks
KYB struts with coilovers-coming soon IP: Logged |
Dennis LaGrua
Member Posts: 6114
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000
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There are some less expensive aftermarket ECMs like the Accel and Haltech that should be able to run the Northstar. If the unit can monitor and sync RPM.s MAP readings, temps, throttle position, O2 voltage, fuel injector pulses and timing it should work.------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff IP: Logged |
AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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I have my Northstar running. I did run into an issue with the PassKey III, but I have it staightened out. I had a PK3 module that was removed for a long crank time and expected it to work ok. I ended up using it, but it took 8 long hour of doubting myself to make it work the way I originally had it conncted. I have read a lot about the PCM that Ryan is using. He has done a great job with his setup. I work at a Caddy dealer and have the ability to use factory EXPORT calibrations. NON OBDII. If I was to make a decision on a different PCM it would be his setup and the next choice would be an 06 DTS PCM. The 06 PCM would be free to me, but the software to get into it is about $1500+. Ryan has done a great job.IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
There are some less expensive aftermarket ECMs like the Accel and Haltech that should be able to run the Northstar. If the unit can monitor and sync RPM.s MAP readings, temps, throttle position, O2 voltage, fuel injector pulses and timing it should work.
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That's fantastic. Except:
1) You'll be starting from a blank slate, which means you'll have to tune it yourself with no starting point.
2) It won't richen the AFR to save the pistons after 15ish seconds of WOT without compromising power and fuel consumption.
3) It'll end up costing you $1500+
4) It will come with a "generic" harness that won't work with the northstar or fiero
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..
I had a Holley. I ditched it because a $50 GM computer from the 1980s had more features.
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1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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so whats the best year motor for what you are doing? I have the 730 with harness that I modded to work on a tpi maf motor, I want to know what else I would need besides the motor and my ecm? Thanks, DrewIP: Logged |
1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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I may have my n* now, I will let you know soon if I need the chip and diagrams. DrewIP: Logged |
FieroTheCat
Member Posts: 55
From: Bellingham, WA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006
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Bumpity bump bump bcause N* rock
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1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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That engine cover gives me a hardon. I almost have my 1952 Belaire 2dr Hardtop road ready so it can be my DD while the 85 goes under the knife for one of my northstar engines. I have a 98 and a 01 but the 98 is "blown" probably headgasket and the 01 has 500 miles, so its gonna be a hard choice. A build thread will follow along with some pics of the belair. Laters, DrewIP: Logged |
motoracer838
Member Posts: 2129
From: Edgewater Co. USofA
Registered: Jan 2006
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Drew, you have a pm.
JoeIP: Logged |
1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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right back at ya motoIP: Logged |
1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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bumpIP: Logged |
1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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How much is that dizzy for the 00+ n* to make it work with this? If its too much Im just gonna squirt it, but I would like to have someone else do the tuning for me. thats why I want this to work. Let me know, DrewIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 1fastcaddy:
How much is that dizzy for the 00+ n* to make it work with this? If its too much Im just gonna squirt it, but I would like to have someone else do the tuning for me. thats why I want this to work. Let me know, Drew |
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The e-dist? It's like 400.
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1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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Is that all is needed for your ecm? is the crank sensor and all that the same? thanks, DrewIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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No, you'll need to buy/fab/mount a trigger wheel. No different from the megasquirt.
also wanted to mention that using the 99 coil pack would be the cheapest option, but there have been some problems getting the northstar crank sensors happy at the exact angle the module needs.[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 02-02-2007).] IP: Logged |
1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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so theres no fool proof way to use the 00+ engines? Whats everyone else doin with manual tranny 00+ in fieros? ThanksIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 1fastcaddy:
so theres no fool proof way to use the 00+ engines? Whats everyone else doin with manual tranny 00+ in fieros? Thanks |
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Big Stuff 3
Crzyone is using this and has had nothing but problems with it. (and it's still not running well)IP: Logged |
1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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I got my 96+99 blown engine sold to moto. Now I just need to figure out what to do with the ecm. Let me know, Drew[This message has been edited by 1fastcaddy (edited 02-04-2007).] IP: Logged |
1fastcaddy
Member Posts: 618
From: Hays, Kansas
Registered: Oct 2004
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what are the chances that the ford edis that MS uses could be used in conjunction with your chip to work on 00+ engines? if I could get that, could you provide the wiring to get it to work? I dont have the factory cop setup on my engine anyways, so if edis is cheaper, thats what Im goin with. Then you could claim that your chip works with 96+ N*. Let me know, I think I might be gettin somewhere here. Drew[This message has been edited by 1fastcaddy (edited 02-04-2007).] IP: Logged |
gtd88
Member Posts: 22
From: Grant, FL, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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I have a 96-99 Northstar "9" motor on the way, with harness and ECM and accessories. I want to get Ryan's
ECM and harness for this motor - is the old wiring used, or does Ryan supply new/other wiring? I should
have the motor in a week or so, and I'll see how everything looks.
GordonIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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No old wiring is used. It is all new wire and new Delphi connectors.
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gtd88
Member Posts: 22
From: Grant, FL, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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What do I need to provide you to get started on the ECM and harness?
Down payment - any parts at all? Do you need the exact year of
the motor?
Thanks,
GordonIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Transmission choice to set up the speedometer...... that's about it.IP: Logged |
gtd88
Member Posts: 22
From: Grant, FL, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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I'll be using a Getrag 5-spd.
GordonIP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18655
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Just an FYI...
I don't think I'll be making harnesses anymore. I am just too busy right now. That, and I don't think I charge enough for my work. DIY wiring kits will be available, but for now I won't be taking any more harness orders.IP: Logged |
