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Author
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Topic: New ECM option for Northstar swappers
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XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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I dont know what I am talking about either. I am going off of what he told me. Homeboy said he thought the thing has two control modules. He says each bank of coils goes to a box thingy, and then to the ecm. I will see if he can email me some pictures.
He sadi he was gonna run it with a crank trigger wheel he bought with a trigger, and then use a megasquirt for fuel and ignition, using a Ford EDI ignition system. I dont really want to use a Megasquirt, but I will if I have to.
I will go and try to find the book and get the info you need. Hopefully you can get this thing to work.
I havent actually seen the setup. I just want to buy the motor and run it. But I got make sure it can be done reasonably first.------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
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Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Will:
The immediate way to work a Y2K engine is with an external crank trigger, FAST eDist and 7730. |
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That does it reasonably. That's why those components were invented.IP: Logged |
madcurl
Member Posts: 15148
From: In a Van, parked down by the River
Registered: Jul 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
Harness with new wiring with new delphi connectors (no old stuff spliced together), ready to be combined with a fiero electrical system:
Set up for 2 heated o2 sensors (only one active at a time though). 98% plug and play... just wire power, ground, fan, tach, speedo, etc...
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Not bad, not bad at all.
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XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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tell me more about that Fast thing, and how it would all get to work. ------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
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ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fast+edist&btnG=Google+SearchIP: Logged |
neverendingproject
Member Posts: 702
From: Seattle,WA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by XzotikGT:
tell me more about that Fast thing, and how it would all get to work.
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"NOTE: A crank reference signal and a cam reference signal are necessary for proper operation.
* Requires conventional 4X ignition trigger signal"
Is this compatible with the 2000+ Northstar?
Just go with a megasquirt, just because an external crank trigger isn't "elegant" doesn't mean it won't do what you want it to do.------------------
Alan Frazier
'84 2m4 project car
'86 GT-'92 3.4 TDC 5 speed(sold) IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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The Megasquirt is a pile of dung created by two hobbyists that doesn't have 1/4 the features of a GM computer made in the late 80's..
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XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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So, what exactly do you need to know? It seems that the ecm cant control ignition all byt itself unless you mod it alot. I was just hoping to be able to revert so we could get the older setup to work. like if I had a wheel that was the same as the Northstar's setup, and run ignition like that.------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
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ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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Okay, let me explain this as clearly as I can...
You can run a 2000 northstar with this 7730 computer.
The easy way to do it would be to attach a trigger wheel laser cut/copied from a <99 northstar, and run the <99 northstar's ignition module setup. You lose the coil on plug system.
You could also use an external trigger with the E-dist and keep the coil on plug system. Add an extra $200-300 or whatever they cost.
The "best way" (IMHO) would be to find a way to use the crank trigger the 2000 northstar already has. Either with an E-dist, or the <99 ignition module. Or something not yet known. This would probably take a lot of work.
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XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
Okay, let me explain this as clearly as I can...
You can run a 2000 northstar with this 7730 computer.
The easy way to do it would be to attach a trigger wheel laser cut/copied from a <99 northstar, and run the <99 northstar's ignition module setup. You lose the coil on plug system.
You could also use an external trigger with the E-dist and keep the coil on plug system. Add an extra $200-300 or whatever they cost.
The "best way" (IMHO) would be to find a way to use the crank trigger the 2000 northstar already has. Either with an E-dist, or the <99 ignition module. Or something not yet known. This would probably take a lot of work.
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ok, imma get back to you when I do more research on the E-dist system. Neverendingproject brought up the fact that the crank trigger could possibly be the same as the 99. If that's the case you thinking it would be a switch to the older system?
But gimme a minute to read up on it real quick.------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
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XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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Ok, I have a bi more googling to do. But I like the Edist. Can the 7730 work with this? I think that would be awesome. Does the motor already have the necessary sensors to run the setup, or is that waht we are trying to find out?------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
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Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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http://www.fuelairspark.com/Products/Information/ElectronicDistributors.asp
The problem is that the Y2K crank trigger system is NOT the same as the earlier years'.
The eDist takes a 4x (per crank revolution) input, a 1/2x (once per cam revolution) input and a single spark timing input and outputs timed spark signals for 8 coils. Thus it allows ECM's with single ignition outputs (like EVERYTHING GM made before '97) and run COP ignition systems with it.
FAST makes a gizmo called a unversal crank decoder (UCD - it doesn't come CLOSE to living up to its name because it only works with LS1's and new Hemis) that takes the crank signal from the engine and translates it into a 4x signal for an eDist to deal with. Unfortunately, it does NOT work on Y2K Northstars. They don't even have a product page for it on their website, but installation instructions are here: http://www.fuelairspark.com/Base/InstructionFiles/UCD-LS1Crate.pdf
Because we can't readily get a 4x signal from the Y2K Northstar pulse train, we have to create one. This is done by mounting a universal crank trigger, such as the ones from MSD, on the front of the engine. On a Chevy, this could be done by using the factory crank trigger from OBDII LT1 or Vortec 350, but that option isn't available on the Northstar.[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-28-2006).] IP: Logged |
XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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That finally makes sense. ------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
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Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
The easy way to do it would be to attach a trigger wheel laser cut/copied from a <99 northstar, and run the <99 northstar's ignition module setup. You lose the coil on plug system. |
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Running an engine that was built with COP on DIS just seems like a step backwards to me... I'd pay the $300 for an eDist in order to retain the factory COP.
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XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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If It would work with Mr. hess's ecm setup I am game.------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
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Sloshua71
Member Posts: 17
From: Gainesville, FL, USA
Registered: Apr 2005
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
The Megasquirt is a pile of dung created by two hobbyists that doesn't have 1/4 the features of a GM computer made in the late 80's..
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Strong words!
Because some of us considering your system have megasquirt as about our only other option:
Other than being near plug and play, what advantages does your modified GM system have?
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ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Sloshua71:
Strong words!
Because some of us considering your system have megasquirt as about our only other option:
Other than being near plug and play, what advantages does your modified GM system have? |
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I thought you'd never ask!
Please read my post on why aftermarket computers suck:
http://60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=32931
Note that this is my experience with a Holley commander and the northstar. The megasquirt is less advanced than the holley, so I don't think it should even be considered. There are other aftermarket computers that rival the GM computer in terms of features, however they are all over $2000... Which is ridiculous... $2000 to have the features of a GM computer made in the late 80's? Okay, okay... it's easy to tune and has some more features like nitrous timing retard.... But still...  IP: Logged |
Sloshua71
Member Posts: 17
From: Gainesville, FL, USA
Registered: Apr 2005
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Thanks for the promt reply-off to do some reading!IP: Logged |
XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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That was a nice read. ------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
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XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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so, will it work with the edist to control the COP?------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
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Hudini
Member Posts: 3852
From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: Feb 2006
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"Note that this is my experience with a Holley commander and the northstar. The megasquirt is less advanced than the holley, so I don't think it should even be considered."
Ok, I misinterpreted that statement. You are specifically talking about the Northstar. I incorrectly read it as a blanket statement against using it in ANY car. I agree it is a very limited ECM, but it is advertised as such. It has many limitations. However, at $250 where I do the soldering, it is priced just right for my 3.4L turbo conversion. I want to run E85 too.
Now if you can provide a user friendly software package for tuning that ECM you like, you would have alot more folks using it. Right now only folks using your engine setup can use your chips. The aftermarket ECMs come with tuning software, that is why we use them. IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Hudini:
"Note that this is my experience with a Holley commander and the northstar. The megasquirt is less advanced than the holley, so I don't think it should even be considered."
Ok, I misinterpreted that statement. You are specifically talking about the Northstar. I incorrectly read it as a blanket statement against using it in ANY car. I agree it is a very limited ECM, but it is advertised as such. It has many limitations. However, at $250 where I do the soldering, it is priced just right for my 3.4L turbo conversion. I want to run E85 too.
Now if you can provide a user friendly software package for tuning that ECM you like, you would have alot more folks using it. Right now only folks using your engine setup can use your chips. The aftermarket ECMs come with tuning software, that is why we use them. |
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The Megasquirt certainly has it's uses - like sandrails, dune buggies, drag cars, etc... But one of those uses is not a daily driven street car. That's just my opinion, nothing more...
Also, my ECM ships with tuning software, that is quite user friendly, should it be needed. It's interesting that you didn't choose to run a GM computer - because your setup has been done 100x before, on a "$50 junkyard ECM"... Since costs are important to you, you might want to look into it.IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by XzotikGT:
so, will it work with the edist to control the COP?
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yes. with a trigger wheel.
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Hudini
Member Posts: 3852
From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: Feb 2006
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How much for just the tuning software? Does it work only on your chosen PCM?
I would love to use the original computer and tune it for my setup. However, I want more resolution for finer control. And I want to run E85 so I need a wideband O2 with the ability to control the injectors to compensate when I run regular fuel. I am nowhere near your ability to understand the ECM. Probably never will be! lol That is why I tend to like aftermarket ECM's. They come with software and instructions.
BTW, right now I have the original PCM with a custom chip burned by Sinister Performance. It works great so far. As I do not have the software or hardware to burn eeproms, I am stuck with my current setup unless I take the car to them for fine tuning. More $$$$. If you know of a better way, please tell me. IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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That's the single biggest benefit to aftermarket ECM's - they come with instructions.
The software is tunerpro, and it's free.
You can buy an eprom burner on ebay for about $30.
You don't need anything else.
Stop on by http://gmecm.mine.nu for more help with GM computers if you want... plenty of people can help there.IP: Logged |
XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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Or I could bypass all of that, get a trigger wheel, and revert to the 99 setup? With possibility of TURBO?------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/167457/1 IP: Logged |
Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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Bypass all of what? Get a trigger wheel to run what?
| | | quote | Originally posted by Hudini:
I would love to use the original computer and tune it for my setup. However, I want more resolution for finer control. |
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Where and in what capacity do you think you need more resolution?
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darkhorizon
Member Posts: 8312
From: Flint Michigan
Registered: Jan 2006
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| | | quote | Originally posted by ryan.hess:
I thought you'd never ask!
Please read my post on why aftermarket computers suck:
http://60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=32931
Note that this is my experience with a Holley commander and the northstar. The megasquirt is less advanced than the holley, so I don't think it should even be considered. There are other aftermarket computers that rival the GM computer in terms of features, however they are all over $2000... Which is ridiculous... $2000 to have the features of a GM computer made in the late 80's? Okay, okay... it's easy to tune and has some more features like nitrous timing retard.... But still... |
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| | | quote | Originally posted by SappySE107
you are better off learning to tune your OBD1 or get a programmer for OBD2. There are more variables known in the OBD1 computer though so hopefully the OBD2 companies are still working on adding options to their software.
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o really?
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XzotikGT
Member Posts: 871
From: Spanaway, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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I was saing that I could ditch the COP setup, go to the 99 ignition, run a trigger wheel, and use the setup Mr. hess has. ------------------
1987 GT 3.4 DOHC turboed
Updated page 11/3/06
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/167457/1 IP: Logged |
Hudini
Member Posts: 3852
From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: Feb 2006
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"Where and in what capacity do you think you need more resolution?"
The original '87 computer was never intended to run boost so it has a relatively small fuel table. If I have to use one of the tables for boost, then I am taking away from the table originally intended for non-boost. Which means having bigger jumps from cell to cell in all the tables. i.e., instead of 250 RPM jumps, I have to use 500RPM jumps in order to get all the different throttle positions and vacuum/boost covered. Clear as mud? I probably do not know enough about it to even talk (and this is a Northstar ECM thread) so I'll shut up.
Thanks ryan.hess for the info on tuning the PCM for GM vehicles. I know enough to know I don't know enough! And good job on the Northstar. Maybe one day for me too as I like the Northstar.
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hrdwoodpro
Member Posts: 39
From: tallahassee,fl,usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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I recently purchased a car to do a swap on. You guys may have seen me asking questions and tinkering around with the 2.5. More to the point ryan hess has got me sold on the northstar swap and I have dismissed the 3800 supercharged swap totally. So today i found a 95 northstar complete engine harness and everything for super cheap and in the same place i found the 4.0 motor and everything to go along with it. The question is which engine to buy and what do i have to do to get the the pre-fab electronics and wiring to work with the 95 motor. Really i just need opinions on these two motors. The northstar is a y code engine not 9 . Will this also be a setback when trying to use thsi ecm? Let me know and ill snag one of the motors tomorrow.IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Hudini:
The original '87 computer was never intended to run boost so it has a relatively small fuel table. If I have to use one of the tables for boost, then I am taking away from the table originally intended for non-boost. Which means having bigger jumps from cell to cell in all the tables. i.e., instead of 250 RPM jumps, I have to use 500RPM jumps in order to get all the different throttle positions and vacuum/boost covered.
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You're right, this is a little bit off topic, but it's good general knowledge, so I'll post it. GM computers interpolate between cells. So for instance, if you have a 6000 rpm cell, and a 6400 rpm cell, and you're at 6100 rpm... it won't just use the 6000rpm cell. It will calculate the difference between the cells and guesstimate what value between 6000 and 6400 the actual 6100rpm value is. Make sense? So, if 6000 was a value of 80, and 6400 was a value of 100, if your rpm was 6100, it would give you something like 85...
So in that respect, there are "infinite" cells. (actually I think there are 16 steps between cells, so you could say it was about 25rpm resolution)IP: Logged |
ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by hrdwoodpro:
I recently purchased a car to do a swap on. You guys may have seen me asking questions and tinkering around with the 2.5. More to the point ryan hess has got me sold on the northstar swap and I have dismissed the 3800 supercharged swap totally. So today i found a 95 northstar complete engine harness and everything for super cheap and in the same place i found the 4.0 motor and everything to go along with it. The question is which engine to buy and what do i have to do to get the the pre-fab electronics and wiring to work with the 95 motor. Really i just need opinions on these two motors. The northstar is a y code engine not 9 . Will this also be a setback when trying to use thsi ecm? Let me know and ill snag one of the motors tomorrow. |
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The 4.0 will set you back 50hp. There aren't any benefits to going with a 4.0, unless you can get it for 1/2 price or something. The code is optimized for a VIN 9, but will run a VIN Y just fine. It will be rich in a few areas, but nothing that serious. The 4.0 would need tuning across the board.IP: Logged |
hrdwoodpro
Member Posts: 39
From: tallahassee,fl,usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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I live in tallahassee and have family in central florida where are you and would it be possible to meet with you and see your swap?
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ryan.hess
Member Posts: 18658
From: Central FL
Registered: Dec 2002
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PM sentIP: Logged |
el_roy1985
Member Posts: 236
From: Bismarck, ND, USA
Registered: Jun 2004
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This swap is so popular I'm surprised there isn't an aftermarket tuning device like DHP or something. If I could get something like that I would jump on this swap as soon as I could find the engine and harness.IP: Logged |
Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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It's not even remotely close to being popular enough for that.[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-04-2006).] IP: Logged |
el_roy1985
Member Posts: 236
From: Bismarck, ND, USA
Registered: Jun 2004
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Aren't there a lot of other vehicles that use N*s for a swap? I'm not talking about just Fieros. I know it would definately bring in a lot more swaps if it was available. They made a DHP tuner specifically for a 96 Beretta, I'm sure there is just as many or more people that would like to tune a N*IP: Logged |
AJxtcman
Member Posts: 1080
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006
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Why can't you use a stock PCM? I am about 10 hours away from starting my Northstar Fiero. When I start a car it is road ready. It is finished. Full of coolant, oil, all line and hoses connected, ECT. I see no reason to start the car until it is this way. I can pull a northstar in about 45 minutes. I have pulled one tore it down measured cylinder bore tapper and out of round in every cylinder, then installed piston, and reinstalled it had it finished in one work day. This was on a friday and the we close at 6pm. I am using a 97-99 pcm and see no issues.IP: Logged |
Will
Member Posts: 9022
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000
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<yawn> ok.
How can you "see no issues" if you haven't started the car yet?
Using an automatic? That will eliminate most issues with the stock PCM.
I guess you're fine with a stock engine, because you can't do any tuning with the stock PCM.IP: Logged |
