I like my 4 speed muncie for my 86 GT but it seems to be 'stiff' sometimes when shifting it into gear. My gauge shows that im right at 3,000RPM when im doing around 80 on the high way. I would like to do a future transmission swap and I think the F23 is going to be my best bet..... I think?
What car came with the F23? More than that, is there a big difference besides the extra gear between the F23 and F40? I mainly want to do the swap because I want a more refined shifter and I want it to be strong. I've heard good thing's about the getrag but I don't want to search for all the part's. Plus, I've seen many of you say that the other two transmission are better.
Also, has anyone ever tried using a "RPO M49 transmission" which came in the 95 camero's? Im assuming that it would work just fine, but maybe there's a clearance issue?
------------------ Take a corner at 130, and you'll understand the term "dirty."
[This message has been edited by zzzhuh (edited 08-05-2014).]
F23 is a great tranny and wil definitely bring your revs down at highway speed. I'm running one in my '85 3800sc and I run around 2,300 RPM at 65 MPH. When I was running the Isuzu 5 speed with my stock 2.8 I was in the same range, and I think the two transmissions have similar gearing, although I think 1st is shorter on the F23.
[This message has been edited by NetCam (edited 08-05-2014).]
I am hoping it is clear to you why you (almost) can't use a Camaro transmission in a Fiero swap.
One potential problem would be that if you did bolt the T5 M49 to a 3800 located in the stock Fiero engine location the transmission tailshaft would extend out of the drivers side of the car by a foot.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 08-05-2014).]
One potential problem would be that if you did bolt the T5 M49 to a 3800 located in the stock Fiero engine location the transmission tailshaft would extend out of the drivers side of the car by a foot.
Phonedawgs, can always rely on you for great photos. I didn't realize how big the M49 is. What car is a F23 transmission out of? Is it a smooth shifter, and more refined than the transmission's that came with the fiero?
[This message has been edited by zzzhuh (edited 08-05-2014).]
with my f23 , i am turning 2250 rpm at 62 mph .245/50/16" tires .mine came from a cavalier ecotec though .dont know how the gearing is different with the 2200 motors , which is what you need .2001, 2002 cavalier/sunfire with 2200 OHV 4 cylinder came with the f23 tranny that bolts to fiero engines and 3800's etc .
I mainly want to do the swap because I want a more refined shifter and I want it to be strong. I've heard good thing's about the getrag but I don't want to search for all the part's.
You realize that the F23 swap takes a lot of custom parts, right?
The F23 can use the axles that are in your car now. The F40 will require different axles. I don't think there's a bolt-in unit that works for the F40 left axle yet, so that still has to be custom made.
You realize that the F23 swap takes a lot of custom parts, right?
The F23 can use the axles that are in your car now. The F40 will require different axles. I don't think there's a bolt-in unit that works for the F40 left axle yet, so that still has to be custom made.
Average cost for a F23 swap? My plan is to do a 3.4PR swap and have the engine run/look beautifully but I know im gonna want a 3.8SC in there eventually. I know the 4 speed can handle the power but I like to quick shift and drop the clutch, especially in a 3.8.
[This message has been edited by zzzhuh (edited 08-06-2014).]
The F23 is cheaper and simpler to install than the F40, but neither is as easy as upgrading to a Fiero 282 Getrag.
Both F23 and F40 will require: Custom transmission mounts Hydraulic connector for HTOB to Fiero line Custom Shifter bracket at transmission VSS converter unless you are using a 7730 or OBD2 ECM.
F40 specific additional requirements: Modify 4 speed shifter or add reverse lockout to 5 speed shifter (F23 uses stock 5 speed shifter). Getrag Select cable & Isuzu Shift cable - both available through Rodney Custom flywheel - Spec offers a flywheel/clutch/spacer combo for the 3800/F40 application. Intermediate shaft bearing mount - custom (F23 does not need an intermediate shaft, so doesn't need this mount) Axles - for a V6 application where you can shift the engine placement, stock Cobalt SS axles can be used. (F23 uses stock fiero axles)
F23 specific additional requirement: Getrag Select cable & Custom shift cable (F40 can use stock application cables from Rodney) Select lever on the transmission needs cut off and a new portion welded on. (F40 shift mechanism at transmission requires no mods).
A couple months ago, I had two 400+ HP V8 fieros at the house. One with the F23 and one with the F40. The F23 is a much smoother shifting transmission than the F40, but I liked driving the F40 car a lot more. Having the 6th gear for cruising and lowering the engine noise is very, very nice. The F23 car (5.7L) would get about 21 mpg on the interstate and the F40 one (5.3L) would get 29 mpg. Part of this was likely the displacement difference and head design (AFR SBC vs. 243 LS head), but the extra gear does have a significant impact on fuel economy as well.
The F23 handles POWER the F40 breaks under the stock G6 engine. Also the F40 is NOISEY as all hell, they don't even use them anymore, the F23 was behined a boosted Colbalt. The F40 is all about the wow factor "I got a 6 speed" like "I got a V8" and drive like a bi#$@ err I mean grandma as "I don't want to break anything"
Originally posted by fierosound: The F35 is a stronger version of the F23, but I couldn't find specifics on it used in a Fiero.
The F35 only came in the Ecotec bell pattern, so using it with anything other than Ecotec will require an adapter plate, which is why everyone uses the F23 or F40, which were available in the Metric bell pattern.
The F23 handles POWER the F40 breaks under the stock G6 engine. Also the F40 is NOISEY as all hell, they don't even use them anymore, the F23 was behined a boosted Colbalt. The F40 is all about the wow factor "I got a 6 speed" like "I got a V8" and drive like a bi#$@ err I mean grandma as "I don't want to break anything"
The F23 handles POWER the F40 breaks under the stock G6 engine. Also the F40 is NOISEY as all hell, they don't even use them anymore, the F23 was behined a boosted Colbalt. The F40 is all about the wow factor "I got a 6 speed" like "I got a V8" and drive like a bi#$@ err I mean grandma as "I don't want to break anything"
IE: F40 WOW F23 a drivers transmission
Huh?
The F23 by definition does not handle power any better than the F40. The numbers in their naming are 1/10 of their torque rating in Newton-Meters. The F23 was not behind the supercharged or turbocharged engines in the Cobalt SS. That was the F25 and the F35. The F23, that everyone is swapping into the Fiero, came in the 2002-2003 Cavalier behind the non-Ecotec engine. The F40 is still used to this day, in the Buick Regal Turbo, and was used in Saab vehicles for almost 10 years, from 2004 until the end of vehicle production. The noise issue you're referring to is not specific to the F40, and lots of things can cause it to happen in most any manual transmission you would install in a Fiero. The 99 S-10 I used to have, had a similar noise issue in the trans, and the shifter would vibrate in neutral. The noise issue has also been pretty much solved in the later F40 transmissions.
There are other options to get 6 speeds as well. WCF has an NSX transmission with a 6 speed conversion. There are 6 speed conversions for other GM transmissions from Quaife. There are other 6 speed transmissions from GM with the Ecotec bell pattern. There are the 6 speed automatics.
Any of those transmissions can break behind the stock G6 engine, especially in a FWD application. They all handle more power in a Fiero than in their stock applications (with the NSX trans probably being about the same as it was a mid-engine car as well). as there is less shock load being put back into the trans.
The reason people use the F23 over the F40 is that it's smaller than the F40, with being cheaper and easier to install.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 08-07-2014).]
The F35 is a stronger version of the F23, but I couldn't find specifics on it used in a Fiero.
So I would not say the F35 is a stronger version of the F23, I would say it is a complete different transmission. The F35 has more in common with the F40, than it does with the F23.
The F35 only came with the ecotec bellhousing, so its use in Fieros is limited to ecotec swaps.
So I would not say the F35 is a stronger version of the F23, I would say it is a complete different transmission. The F35 has more in common with the F40, than it does with the F23.
The F35 only came with the ecotec bellhousing, so its use in Fieros is limited to ecotec swaps.
I've also heard of guys swapping F23's in where F35's were due to failures and having better luck with the f23.
Originally posted by ericjon262: I've also heard of guys swapping F23's in where F35's were due to failures and having better luck with the f23.
I read that the F35 failures were due to wheel hop and that there was some type of official release from GM or a GM-related authority explaining how to resolve the issue.
Originally posted by fieroguru: So I would not say the F35 is a stronger version of the F23, I would say it is a complete different transmission. The F35 has more in common with the F40, than it does with the F23.
The F35 only came with the ecotec bellhousing, so its use in Fieros is limited to ecotec swaps.
If I recall correctly in my searching long ago, the F35 is also a Saab original and shares the same spline arrangement as the F40 as a result making up the 5 and 6 speed options for the Saab series cars.
quote
Originally posted by pdemondo:
I am driving an 88 GT with a 4.9 and F40. So far ZERO problems including ZERO noise problems.
Has anybody that claims that the F40 is crap actually installed one and driven it for a while?
Repetitive considerably higher than stock rated torque loads and solid clutch parts in place of the dual mass flywheel and the sprung clutch hub will kill an F40. That I have done. Note that certain gears (2 & 4) in the F40 have the highest torque rating. 3 rd is the best pulling gear and where my tranny showed the first sign of quitting under heavy acceleration. I confirmed the solid parts side effects through a Saab Tranny builder/modifier.
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Repetitive considerably higher than stock rated torque loads and solid clutch parts in place of the dual mass flywheel and the sprung clutch hub will kill an F40. That I have done. Note that certain gears (2 & 4) in the F40 have the highest torque rating. 3 rd is the best pulling gear and where my tranny showed the first sign of quitting under heavy acceleration. I confirmed the solid parts side effects through a Saab Tranny builder/modifier.
My F40 is still issue free after 3 years, 23K miles, 12+ 1/4 mile passes and lots of WOT abuse auto-crossing and daily driving. At 382 whp and 325 wtq, it is a moderately high hp/tq combo, but yours is likely higher with the turbo.
My F40 is still issue free after 3 years, 23K miles, 12+ 1/4 mile passes and lots of WOT abuse auto-crossing and daily driving. At 382 whp and 325 wtq, it is a moderately high hp/tq combo, but yours is likely higher with the turbo.
So far no problems with the replacement and 40K+ miles. Yes the first engine install with the turbo was definitely higher than 325 wtq by a good bit, probably as much as 100 lb/ft based on feel alone, compared to the difference in offline accel with a higher duration cam installed at spec, instead of the previous cam that was left advanced via the VVT and with .5 more compression points. So far it's 13 psi and spark blowout limited to 4200 rpm peak at just over 300 wtq on the dyno which I have to fix (spark blowout) in order to retest through the full rpm range.
Just noticed you're in Champaign, I was there for a month back in 06, I really like that place.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-06-2015).]
