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Need some opinions from the armchair dyno guys. by RayOtton
Started on: 07-26-2014 03:08 PM
Replies: 19 (269 views)
Last post by: RayOtton on 07-28-2014 08:17 PM
RayOtton
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Report this Post07-26-2014 03:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonClick Here to Email RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Talking about a stock '88 2.8 auto Formula.

I've done the following mods.

1 - Ported manifolds
2 - Ported y-pipe
3 - "Dawg Style" upper intake manifold
4 - Steve Monroe 56mm bored throttle body
5 - Rodney's underdrive pulley set.
6 - Hi-flow cat
7 - MSD streetfire coil.
8 - 80 lb weight reduction - A- Optima battery ( -20 lbs )
B - Spare tire delete ( -35 lbs)
C - Cat replacement ( -10lbs )
D - Me ( -15lbs )

So, just for fun, how much HP do you think I've managed to add?
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olejoedad
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Report this Post07-26-2014 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
30 - 35 hp.
The weight reduction will make it feel like more.
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Gall757
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Report this Post07-26-2014 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you loose 100 more pounds you will REALLY feel it....
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RayOtton
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Report this Post07-26-2014 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonClick Here to Email RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

If you loose 100 more pounds you will REALLY feel it....


Yeah but I'd be dead so the only use would be a quicker trip to the cemetery.
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mcguiver3
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Report this Post07-26-2014 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Can you put me in your will?
No one wants that car anyway..............
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RayOtton
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Report this Post07-27-2014 05:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonClick Here to Email RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mcguiver3:

Can you put me in your will?
No one wants that car anyway..............


What the hell, none of the kids want it. They think dad has entered second childhood.


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84fiero123
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Report this Post07-27-2014 08:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:


Yeah but I'd be dead so the only use would be a quicker trip to the cemetery.


Hell no you could be buried in it ! Didn't some guy do that with his motorcycle?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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RayOtton
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Report this Post07-27-2014 09:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonClick Here to Email RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So enough with the cemetery jokes, OK? Make me nervous.

Back to the original subject.

So if I'm now making somewhere between 25 and 35 HP ( Seat of the pants says closer to 25 than 35 ) and it cost me about $600 plus some sweat equity, why is the first response on the forum for suggestions for more HP to "drop in a 3.4"?

Simply that the 3.4 can then be improved even further?
But then you have the cost of the transplant PLUS the aforementioned $600 for the same improvements I did to the 2.8.
And an observation -

Isn't it sad that most of these mods could have been standard if only GM had an actual commitment to their cars. I mean, really, they couldn't have come up a way to manufacture those exhaust manifolds that didn't include blocking about 30% of the flow path?

What I'm trying to say is that back in 1988 instead of a 140HP V6 they could have produced a 165HP V6 by some well placed attention to detail.

Again, just a personal observation after digging around in the engine.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post07-27-2014 09:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe that you need to define your objective. What is it that you wish to achieve? Pouring money and mods into a tired 25 yr old 2.8L engine will have some effect but if you've spent $600 and are possibly on your way to $1000 you will find yourself in an area of diminishing returns. Even with your mods, you are still looking at a 16 or 17 second 1/4 mile car. That's slow by todays standards. If you really want improved performance in your Fiero, you will need an engine swap. Not trying to be hard on you or rude; just telling you like it is.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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RayOtton
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Report this Post07-27-2014 11:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonClick Here to Email RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don' think you're being hard on me. I asked for some opinions and that's what I want.

But here's the thing.

This particular Fiero was a well kept summer weekend car with 45K miles on it. It's not tired. In fact, it doesn't look or feel like it's got even that many miles on it.

I'm very satisfied with the kick in the pants improvements my $600 gave me and that's really all I plan to do. Well, maybe a paint job in the future once I get on Medicare and don't have this monthly health insurance nut.

So why spend $2000 ( ??? ) for 20 HP when I can spend $600 for the same or maybe a little more?

In addition, not that this is a high priority, the car remains stock. About the only thing you can see if you really look for it is the enlarged throat on the underside of the upper intake manifold. Oh and the drop-in replacement Streefire Coil.

Just food for thought for any other owners who don't want to go the full transplant route.

[This message has been edited by RayOtton (edited 07-27-2014).]

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olejoedad
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Report this Post07-27-2014 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The reason for the 3.4 swap is threefold.....
More displacement
Better oiling
Stock appearance
The oiling path in the 2.8 is OK for 140 horse, push it to 180, beat on it, it will spin bearings.
The larger displacement of the 3.4 responds better to mild can upgrades, and if you want to get crazy with compression and can, the oiling system will allow the engine to live long and prosper.
To address the GM could have made more HP observation, back in the day the manufacturers were balancing economy, emissions and longevity. Plus the 'unwriiten rule' of pounds per horsepower that limited performance potential.....
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RayOtton
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Report this Post07-27-2014 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonClick Here to Email RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, good answer on the benefits of the swap, thanks.

I'm still not convinced about the GM lack of effort though. Back in the day, 80's to 90's, I always wondered why foreign car makers seemed in general to have higher HP/ Liter numbers than US car makers.

After taking a look at those manifolds though, it becomes obvious. The accountants who didn't know a manifold from a manikin were in charge.
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Gall757
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Report this Post07-27-2014 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:

The accountants who didn't know a manifold from a manikin were in charge.


They still are....

It's always fun to bash the bean-counters. When I was in the business I hated them too. The front office did not care how efficient the hardware was. They wanted to know that Fieros were a certain level of performance and cost that would not interfere with all their other plans. Remember, there were a lot more 2.8s in pickup trucks than in a Fiero. I think GM made it way into the late 90s before they even worried about overseas competition. Cadillac just hired a guy from Nissan,,, That was a hard pill to swallow.
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Report this Post07-27-2014 02:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, the whole point of business IS profitability.....as GM has so pointedly failed at in the past.
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Report this Post07-27-2014 03:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:
So why spend $2000 ( ??? ) for 20 HP when I can spend $600 for the same or maybe a little more?


If you're spending $2000 to swap in the Camaro 3.4, I hope that's for a freshly rebuilt engine. With careful shopping for an engine, you can do the swap for less than the $600 you spent. And as mentioned it has other benefits over sticking with the 2.8.

For $2000 you can do a 3800 swap and have a ~240 HP engine. And a much better transmission (if you are sticking with an automatic and swap in the 4t65e that the 3800 comes mated to).
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RayOtton
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Report this Post07-27-2014 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonClick Here to Email RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Except that I am still capable of the easy to moderate mods that I listed.

I am past the stage in life where I want to get involved in a complete engine swap. I would have to pay for that service thus increasing the cost.
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Report this Post07-27-2014 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My 2 cents - and I think a few touched on this, most times - when someone is looking to do a swap, it's because the 2.8 (or Duke) has died or is close to dying. The 2.8 is not worth rebuilding - better to pick up a 3.4 and mod it - it will live a lot longer and the costs are about the same. Find the right 3.4 and all you have to do is cam it and do the rest of the mods that you did. With a low mile 2.8, it's worth going the route you took.
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RayOtton
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Report this Post07-28-2014 06:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonClick Here to Email RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thank you. That makes sense.
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Akghandi
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Report this Post07-28-2014 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AkghandiSend a Private Message to AkghandiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have an 86 v6 auto and its pretty peppy but mine was bored .60 over 10:1 pistons a bigger cam ported exhaust and it was fully balanced. Needless to say i have a 3800sc and a 5spd just waiting to go in.

Also i have the recipt from the engine build back in 95' from the previous owner he spent 2k in 95, and that was the third time the engine was rebuilt and the trans has been rebuilt twice. The car has 106k on it.


Modding the 2.8 just isnt worth it. Go the 3.4 route. LKQ had a 3.4 for 700 last i looked
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RayOtton
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Report this Post07-28-2014 08:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonClick Here to Email RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's easy to make the comment "drop a 3.4 in it" but the devil is in the details.

You need to understand, replacing an engine is not something I'm ever going do again. I'm not about to put the thing in myself due to a lack of time, energy and equipment. So the cost to have someone else do it is quite a bit more than adding some go fast parts to the exterior of the engine.

But truly, thanks for the opinions.

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