hello so zzp is suppose to delete the VATS system
yet i still have no pulse at my injectors
i tested my ICM i have power, ground, and signals going to the ICM from the crank and cam sensors, yet still no pulse.
i just tested my injectors. probably not the right way i did a quick power supply to all 6 then cranked her over and she fired but as no pulse she died just as quick as it started.
I have a 97 GTP engine and the stock 4t65E HD i think that's what the transmission is either way its the stock one from the donor car

I have a aftermarket Walbro 255 fuel pump wired in on a toggle switch on my dash to supply power totally avoiding my fuel pump relays and such, would that be a issue?
i just kind of figured if there was pressure it would work

i have been stuck on this project for a few months now and i have been trying to do it all myself but now i need some advice and some help
Please anyone for the love of auto sports please help me out

I would buy, borrow or befriend someone with a quality scanner. No way to tell exactly what is going on without one. The anti-theft feature can sometimes be hard to disable on the later PCM's. but further evaluation is needed before you can say that it is the problem.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Had exactly the same problem with a 98 GMC. Tried bypass modules, didn't work. Sent the ECM to a shop in Canada. $50 and no more problem. (Deleted VAT)

Two words of advice.....

Sinister Performance

ill try and see if my friend can borrow the genesis 2 from his dealership and see what happens from that
but as for the VAT delete. the Fiero tune from ZZP is supposed to had the VATS deleted. that is the entire reason why i had it flashed by them.
now twice because i thought they did it wrong the first time.

i have read a few discussions on here that have mentioned sinister performance, but i had no clue they existed until after i paid and revived my PCM
if the later ones do not like the VATS delete, would a 2000 harness and ECM work. If so ill have to try and track that down or just pay fuelinjection.com for a new harness.

i wish there was a community of people in my town that could just meet up and help me out. This engine swap is a royal pain.

I can do a 460 big block swap in a weekend. i have been working on this for a couple years now off and on

quote Originally posted by mx3800supercharged: ill try and see if my friend can borrow the genesis 2 from his dealership and see what happens from that but as for the VAT delete. the Fiero tune from ZZP is supposed to had the VATS deleted. that is the entire reason why i had it flashed by them. now twice because i thought they did it wrong the first time. i have read a few discussions on here that have mentioned sinister performance, but i had no clue they existed until after i paid and revived my PCM if the later ones do not like the VATS delete, would a 2000 harness and ECM work. If so ill have to try and track that down or just pay fuelinjection.com for a new harness. i wish there was a community of people in my town that could just meet up and help me out. This engine swap is a royal pain. I can do a 460 big block swap in a weekend. i have been working on this for a couple years now off and on

FieroFlyer on this forum makes harnesses and accompanying PCM for the best price and he is in Canada to boot.
Get a 1998 Grand Prix GTP PCM and it will start and run your car. You may have to get a 98 MAF for the correct AFR and some codes will be present but it will run just fine.

quote Originally posted by nosrac: FieroFlyer on this forum makes harnesses and accompanying PCM for the best price and he is in Canada to boot. Get a 1998 Grand Prix GTP PCM and it will start and run your car. You may have to get a 98 MAF for the correct AFR and some codes will be present but it will run just fine.

thank you for the information, ill track him down and send a PM ASAP

AS for ZZPerformance, Turbo Tim is sending me a third PCM to try out now. I should have it in a week. ill see how this one goes and if it still does not do the Fuel enable i guess ill have to spend the extra cash on the 98 PCM and harness. all i want is for this car to run. then i know it will be worth finishing up.

If your getting frustrated stop by I will take you for a rip in my 3.8sc.... you wont be frustrated anymore.. tim

your not to far from me, might be worth the trip up north one weekend.

none of the grand prix pcm's have any security on them. The 01-03 pcms may stall after running for a few seconds, but it will run fine for that few seconds.

if i decide to go the 98 to 2000 PCM and harness, what about the KR sensor on my 97 PCM, does that just get eliminated??

97 gtp has no security enabled. Period.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: 97 gtp has no security enabled. Period.

from what i read from a lot of other sites the 97 has a passlock system built into the ignition switch itself, when the key is in and turns it sends a magnetic field down to the BCM and from that it sends a signal to the PCM called fuel enable

BCM - pin A3
PCM - C1-55

ICM - D- PURPLE with WHITE stripe wire.
Fuel Injection Control Signal to ECM.

Thats great and all but the pcm itself doesnt care. You can feed that security line anything you want and it will run fine. Its disabled in the code from the factory.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Thats great and all but the pcm itself doesnt care. You can feed that security line anything you want and it will run fine. Its disabled in the code from the factory.

hmmm... I did not know that

so can I just give it a 12V power source to that wire?
or a ground?

can you please explain a bit more??

much appreciated

There is nothing to explain really... you just can ignore any of the security stuff on a 97 grandprix pcm... the input it is looking for is selectable inside of the pcm code between a serial communication.. triangle wave.. or nothing and all grand prixs before 01 are set to nothing.

Either way the failure mode of a security issue is not "no start" it is "start and run great for 3 seconds then shut off"

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-24-2014).]

With that said why am I not getting any fuel pulse?
I drove the car for over a Year before I pulled it out for the swap and it cranks ands has spark just no fuel pulse. That's why I think its the fuel enable from the security. I tested and replaced my ICM, with that said I am getting signals from the crank and cam sensors. Just no fuel pulse.
I tested my injectors and they do work.

If you are getting spark, then you might have a bad connection to the PCM. Would be neat to see what the PCM is doing with a scanner.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: If you are getting spark, then you might have a bad connection to the PCM. Would be neat to see what the PCM is doing with a scanner.

I so agree with you on the scanner part, but the issue with that is my OBD2 port does not work and that is another thing on my WTF list of things.
I did chop out a lot of stuff like the ABS and other stuff I don't need from the harness and I think with that something went wrong there.
when I test the injectors the node light stays on, but no flash when cranking

I read a few times that the 97 does have a VAT system, it sends a signal from the ignition switch with that magnetic field to the Instrument pack, then to the BCM then to the ICM or something like that, are you sure, the 97 actually does not do that


I should probably just invest in a standalone harness from that fuelinjection.com site and just go from there as the port will work and it will be much cleaner.

I have a 1997 3800 ECM from a park ave. I deleted all the codes with a powrtuner and it still quit after 2 seconds. I purchased a module from Baker electronix and it works. Check them out... Yes spelled with x
Wheelie

[This message has been edited by WHEELIE (edited 07-24-2014).]

quote Originally posted by WHEELIE: I have a 1997 3800 ECM from a park ave. I deleted all the codes with a powrtuner and it still quit after 2 seconds. I purchased a module from Baker electronix and it works. Check them out... Yes spelled with x Wheelie

I have a passlock system not a passkey1 or 2 system, it is a bit different, would it still work??
for 35$ its worth a try

I own a 97gtp and drive it regularly but I cant say if the passkey system ever does anything.. my 98 olds 88 throws a security light because I cut the wires going to the tumbler for the ohms check and it still runs fine.

If your scan tool cant connect to the pcm you have a problem... the scan tool needs power ground and 1 class2 data connection... if you dont have that right it would be a great first step of troubleshooting even if it doesnt make your car run.

Remember that even with the most horrible passkey security problems YOUR CAR WILL STILL RUN FINE FOR 3 SECONDS

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I own a 97gtp and drive it regularly but I cant say if the passkey system ever does anything.. my 98 olds 88 throws a security light because I cut the wires going to the tumbler for the ohms check and it still runs fine. If your scan tool cant connect to the pcm you have a problem... the scan tool needs power ground and 1 class2 data connection... if you dont have that right it would be a great first step of troubleshooting even if it doesnt make your car run. Remember that even with the most horrible passkey security problems YOUR CAR WILL STILL RUN FINE FOR 3 SECONDS

so before I try to get any further I should try and figure out my OBD and see why it wont connect, I think I still have that diagram in my stack of papers. when I eliminated some stuff I noticed that some of the wires went to the OBD. maybe I eliminated the ground for it by mistake...
also I never hooked up the security light yet or the check engine indicator light either. i noticed a few people talking about they see the light either flashing or its on steady, for me i have no clue because of that. i have just been focusing on why it wont start.

mine wont even run for the 3 seconds then die like most, it just does not get the fuel at all, and that is what i have been focusing on.
if i cant find my wiring diagram for that would you happen to have a copy for the 97, i really don't want to pay for alldata.com again.

Gmtuners.com has wiring diagrams.

There is no security light on a fiero because there is no bcm. The pcm has no influence on the security system its only function is to turn off after 3 seconds if it doesnt have the input its looking for. Again the grand prix is not looking for any inputs to satisfy the security.

All of your wiring issues will be solved by looking at the pinouts provided at the link that DH provided.
www.gmtuners.com
(Sinister Performance)
The first place to check for solving swap wiring issues.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Gmtuners.com has wiring diagrams. There is no security light on a fiero because there is no bcm. The pcm has no influence on the security system its only function is to turn off after 3 seconds if it doesnt have the input its looking for. Again the grand prix is not looking for any inputs to satisfy the security.

well i am not putting this into a Fiero, its actually going into a 1995 Mazda MX3 presidia. its a mid engine car now with all the custom frame work and hours work to do so. i put it in the rear.
so the GTP harness and all was transferred to the MX3, BCM and all.

but like you said before i should try and figure out my OBD first and scan and go from there
that should tell me whats wrong right.
because it does not run for the 3 seconds then die, like you say it should. it just does not start at

ill look into the OBD port this weekend and let you know what is up from that if i can figure that part out

Mazda, Fiero, whatever, the info is there to solve your problem.
If you know the wiring of the Mazda, its easy to morph the 3800 into it and have it run......

ok so I found the chart on that link you provided

but were it says 18X reference attach to pin c, but I am using the ICM from the gtp. so I never thought that would need to done

I take it you cant just take the wiring harness from the GTP
wire in the ignition bypass to the mazda and be done??
because that's pretty much what I did so far.
it cranks, everything has power it sparks but no fuel.

sorry if I don't seam to understand a few things I am way to new at this **** .
I can build a big block carbureted engine but this is a whole new ball park

You dont need the BCM for anything.

The 18x wires should run from the ICM to the PCM using the factory wiring. You shouldnt have to change any of that.

The main "swap wiring" bits are just:

1. hook up switched power to pink 12+ wires. There are roughly 12 of these in the harness in some form.
2. Hook up grounds.
3. Hook up B+ to the PCM for constant battery power.
4. Hook up gauges, reverse lights, fan controls, fuel pump enable, etc as desired.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: You dont need the BCM for anything. The 18x wires should run from the ICM to the PCM using the factory wiring. You shouldnt have to change any of that. The main "swap wiring" bits are just: 1. hook up switched power to pink 12+ wires. There are roughly 12 of these in the harness in some form. 2. Hook up grounds. 3. Hook up B+ to the PCM for constant battery power. 4. Hook up gauges, reverse lights, fan controls, fuel pump enable, etc as desired.

so just take out my BCM from the harness and toss it, k

all I did for the power part was connect power to my underhood electrical center and hook up the grounds, that I can see noticeably. then I ran the ignition and starter wires to the mazda ignition switch so the 3800 would crank.
so I am missing some other power wires that you are mentioning in step 1.

the B+ to the pcm would that be C1-20 - battery positive voltage (hot at all times)

if you somehow hacked in the grand prix fuse box, then you have the power you need... probably.... Its pretty basic to check all of the 12 volt things.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: if you somehow hacked in the grand prix fuse box, then you have the power you need... probably.... Its pretty basic to check all of the 12 volt things.

yeah I took the entire harness from the GTP underhood center and all, and then wired that into the mazda and ran a main power feed from the battery so that's why I thought that was all I needed to do for the power for everything, then I took all the grounds I could see and attached them to either the frame I made for the new engine cradle I made or if they were near the new battery location I attached them right to the batteries negative post.

does the pcm look for power from the underhoods fuel relays and such to the fuel pump?
reason I ask is that is that I bypassed all that and I put a inline walbrow 255 from the fuel cell wired directly to a toggle on my dash would that have something to do with my issue?

i run my fiero swaps into the 2 fiero "engine fuses" then the ICM to the fiero "igntion" fuse.... So yes you could do something similar to that. At this point in time I might not pull it all apart again, but it wouldnt hurt, and you could clean up the wiring a bit.

I have doubts that your PCM is even turning on. I am not sure how much of it runs to the driver management box, but I believe that it is limited to just switched power, so I would expect that you are not getting positive power to the PCM.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: i run my fiero swaps into the 2 fiero "engine fuses" then the ICM to the fiero "igntion" fuse.... So yes you could do something similar to that. At this point in time I might not pull it all apart again, but it wouldnt hurt, and you could clean up the wiring a bit. I have doubts that your PCM is even turning on. I am not sure how much of it runs to the driver management box, but I believe that it is limited to just switched power, so I would expect that you are not getting positive power to the PCM.

well if I get her running like this, then over the winter ill eliminate the GTP's underhood and tie it in much nicer into the mazdas. I never even thought of doing it that way. as you can tell I am quite new to a pain in the ass engine swap. but that sounds like a much cleaner install. definitely something I would want to do down the road.

so the PCM's main power feed is C1-20 according to that chart you sent me the other day right? so should I back probe that pin location and look for a 12V source?
if their is no power than I would have to trace that and see why, but if there is, it must be some other issue.

ill test that after work tomorrow, I would love to now, but the wife will be pissed, laying new floors in the house today so sadly no car time this weekend.

Backpin everything that doesnt work... Get the scanner working by backpinning it to the ECU, ground, and power... When you have that figured out and it still doesnt work go and pin out the PCM to find out why it isnt turning on.. which it just needs B+ power, switched power and ground.... and continue on from there as you find other stuff that doesnt work.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: 97 gtp has no security enabled. Period.

Not true. Every 1997 GTP PCM tune I have on disk right now DOES have VATS enabled in it from the factory and it will NOT allow the engine to run for more than 2 seconds without a VATS fuel enable signal coming into the PCM on the dedicated VATS fuel enable wire (pin C1-55). I know because I've tried it.

Now you wouldn't know this by working on an actual 1997 Grand Prix GTP car. There's no special ignition key used by these cars to indicate it has VATS (at least there wasn't any used with the GTPs I worked on). But, despite this, the BCM in these cars still sends a fuel enable signal to the PCM on the dedicated PASSKEY 2 fuel enable wire (connecting to PCM pin C1-55). And if that signal is missing, the engine won't run for more than 2 seconds.

A custom PCM tune needs to be made to disable VATS in the 1997 GTP PCM. I know how to do it and I've been doing it for longer than anyone else. 1996 L67 PCM tunes are the same way.

1998-2000 GTP PCM tunes don't have VATS enabled from the factory, at least none that I have on file do. That changed around 2001 model year with the introduction of the PK3 VATS system into some of these cars. By the 2003 model year, all GTPs had PK3 and those stock PCM tunes would not let the engine run for more than 2 seconds missing the fuel enable signal. Again, I know how to disable it in these PCM tunes as well.

That having been said, the engine should still start and run for 2 seconds (giving the injectors pulses for 2 seconds) before the PCM shuts it down due to a missing VATS fuel enable signal. If you aren't getting injector pulse at all, then you have another problem.

It's worth mentioning that if whoever tuned your computer didn't know what they were doing and improperly changed a setting in a failed attempt to disable VATS, they could have corrupted the file which could cause the PCM not allow the injectors to pulse at all.

-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-28-2014).]