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Pro's and Con's on whether to keep my Catalytic Converter by 86 Vintage Fiero
Started on: 07-17-2014 10:09 AM
Replies: 49 (11046 views)
Last post by: rogergarrison on 07-18-2014 12:41 PM
86 Vintage Fiero
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Report this Post07-17-2014 10:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 Vintage FieroClick Here to Email 86 Vintage FieroSend a Private Message to 86 Vintage FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, I know the Catalytic Converter does a lot of good for the environment. But the simple question is it really necessary? I drive the car but not a lot (seems work takes up most of my time). The Muffler shop stated it would be $200 for the converter but the mechanic stated these older cars can go without them, which means $40 for a straight pipe. What will this do to my car if I take it out, will it mess up my sensors? I could use all your knowledge for what might be a simple solution.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 10:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No mechanical harm to the engine. Legally, I don't believe you can remove them (except for off-road use). I don't believe a shop can remove them, legally.

If you remove it, the exhaust will be louder.. a lot louder.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you remove it, the car will run richer, the exhaust will be louder, and it's against the law.

If you have a couple jack stands, cut off wheel tool or hack saw, floor jack, and socket/ratchet set, you can install a universal clamp-in cat for around $50. My guess is that for $200, the shop is probably charging you $100 for labor, and $100 for a cat. You can buy a universal cat on eBay for anywhere between $30 and $80 that is made to clamp on to the diameter of your exhaust. Just cut the old cat out as close to the tube expansion and as straight as you can, slide the new converter in place, and tighten down the exhaust clamp U-bolts.

Depending on the state of the exhaust tubes themselves, you may need to replace more of the exhaust as well. You can also buy your own cat and take it to the shop to save a little money. I took a whole cat-back exhaust with the cat, to a local muffler shop for install, and they only charged me $200 to install it, as it took a couple hours to do. Just remember the any shop is going to be expensive because they charge about $100/hr for labor, and they tend to charge by book hours, and are going to make a profit on any parts they sell you. So selling you an $80 cat for $100 and an hour to install it is going to be about $200.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 12:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for edfieroClick Here to Email edfieroSend a Private Message to edfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd be suprised any legit shop would put on a straight pipe. I tried to get Midas to do it for me and they would not, even though my car is registered as a Classic and is not required to get an emissions inspection.
That said, I put the straight pipe on myself. It is slightly louder, but the difference on a Iron Duke is NOT significant.

[This message has been edited by edfiero (edited 07-17-2014).]

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Report this Post07-17-2014 12:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TONY_CSend a Private Message to TONY_CEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Chances are, if the cat is that old, there is nothing left inside of it anyway. When I took my cat off my 84 and replaced it with a straight pipe, there was nothing left inside of it.

As for emissions checks, it's true a lot of states don't do emissions testing on cars as old as ours but they usually require all the emissions components to be in place. Technically, a cat with nothing in it would pass in NY but a straight pipe would fail.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 01:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't be confused by the lack of emissions checks or classic car requirements for emissions. Noise laws also cover emissions equipment, and removing the cat, or even having it hollowed out, will still place your car in violation of the noise ordinance in your area, even if it would pass an emissions check.

Federal law also requires emissions equipment be installed on any car on the road that was manufactured after a specific date in the 70s, which I don't recall exactly right now. Any cop in the country can perform a visual inspection for the cat and give you a ticket, requiring it to be fixed, and would be completely within the law to do so. Court could also require proof of repair, and if deemed necessary, could order seizure of a vehicle if it is not repaired.

While it is generally unlikely that you will get pulled over for noise or a roadside visual inspection and potential loss of your car, as a result of having a straight pipe in place of the cat on your Fiero, they are still possibilities.

Frankly, $200 really isn't that much cost for something that's going to last 15-20 years, or probably much longer. Heck, a battery is about $100 for a Fiero these days, and that will need to be replaced every 3-4 years.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 01:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ive taken many cats off my cars in the past. I never had one get any louder (at least noticeable) without one. If your required to have an inspection, you need to keep one. Ive also never noticed any difference in performance or mileage taking one out. A brand new 76 van I had ran better without one. I doubt any cop in this century has looked under a car at the side of the road for a cat.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86 Vintage Fiero:

Yes, I know the Catalytic Converter does a lot of good for the environment. But the simple question is it really necessary?


You answered your own question.

Anyone who breathes air (most of us I suspect) should be concerned with air quality. It's pretty easy to identify which cars don't have a cat by simply standing behind them while the engine's running. It stinks. Worse than that, it's harmful to us and every other living creature.

Replacing a cat doesn't need to be expensive. The cat doesn't impair performance. There's no valid logical reason not to replace the cat. This has been discussed many times here previously.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

If you remove it, the car will run richer, the exhaust will be louder, and it's against the law.

If you have a couple jack stands, cut off wheel tool or hack saw, floor jack, and socket/ratchet set, you can install a universal clamp-in cat for around $50. My guess is that for $200, the shop is probably charging you $100 for labor, and $100 for a cat. You can buy a universal cat on eBay for anywhere between $30 and $80 that is made to clamp on to the diameter of your exhaust. Just cut the old cat out as close to the tube expansion and as straight as you can, slide the new converter in place, and tighten down the exhaust clamp U-bolts.

Depending on the state of the exhaust tubes themselves, you may need to replace more of the exhaust as well. You can also buy your own cat and take it to the shop to save a little money. I took a whole cat-back exhaust with the cat, to a local muffler shop for install, and they only charged me $200 to install it, as it took a couple hours to do. Just remember the any shop is going to be expensive because they charge about $100/hr for labor, and they tend to charge by book hours, and are going to make a profit on any parts they sell you. So selling you an $80 cat for $100 and an hour to install it is going to be about $200.


run richer, eh.. please going detail on how it'll make it run richer.. as the o2 sensor that feeds back to the ecu is before the converter .

it is fed law that if you remove an emmissions part they can fine you 2500.00 per part.. so if the factory converter is plugged.. I'd if oyu choose to remove it.. hollow out the converter and put it back on.. I'd not install what used to be called a "test pipe" as that's clearly easy for anyone to see that you've removed the converter.. they tend not to really look now, but that could change at anytime or any officer that stops you..

the converter is a part that makes backpressure..(our cars with pellet flat bed type) removing it. depending on car/engine/ecu may cause issues if the ecu can't make up for that extra flow.. newer cars with an 02 sensor before and after the converter can tell if it's been removed/hollowed.. our ecu with obI will never know it's not there.. car will be louder as the converter acts like a muffler also..

converters by the way don't die, something up stream killed it.. if the converters dead..(blocked, or the core inside melted and is falling apart, or in the pellet type spitting pellets) something else killed it.. find that.. running rich from a faulty o2 sensor, a bad miss firing, dead cyl, bad injector, /etc but the converter die'n is the result you need to find the cause... I say this because you are asking about removal.. and not that the converter isn't cleaning up the emissions and car is failing emission test.. if that was the case.. then you'd replace it as the media in it isn't converting.. and 9 times out of ten it's because the media is coated with carbon.. and can be cleaned... but no shop is going to do that..
the shop that's offering to put a test pipe in.. more than likely will only do so with a cash sale and no receipt.. as they can loose their lic. if caught.. and fines heavily ..

if you choose to remove it, I'd hollow it out(remove the media inside it) and put it back on.. no one is the wiser..
if you replace it.. fine the cause.. otherwise the replacement will die a fast death also..
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Report this Post07-17-2014 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:


run richer, eh.. please going detail on how it'll make it run richer.. as the o2 sensor that feeds back to the ecu is before the converter .

it is fed law that if you remove an emmissions part they can fine you 2500.00 per part.. so if the factory converter is plugged.. I'd if oyu choose to remove it.. hollow out the converter and put it back on.. I'd not install what used to be called a "test pipe" as that's clearly easy for anyone to see that you've removed the converter.. they tend not to really look now, but that could change at anytime or any officer that stops you..

the converter is a part that makes backpressure..(our cars with pellet flat bed type) removing it. depending on car/engine/ecu may cause issues if the ecu can't make up for that extra flow.. newer cars with an 02 sensor before and after the converter can tell if it's been removed/hollowed.. our ecu with obI will never know it's not there.. car will be louder as the converter acts like a muffler also..

converters by the way don't die, something up stream killed it.. if the converters dead..(blocked, or the core inside melted and is falling apart, or in the pellet type spitting pellets) something else killed it.. find that.. running rich from a faulty o2 sensor, a bad miss firing, dead cyl, bad injector, /etc but the converter die'n is the result you need to find the cause... I say this because you are asking about removal.. and not that the converter isn't cleaning up the emissions and car is failing emission test.. if that was the case.. then you'd replace it as the media in it isn't converting.. and 9 times out of ten it's because the media is coated with carbon.. and can be cleaned... but no shop is going to do that..
the shop that's offering to put a test pipe in.. more than likely will only do so with a cash sale and no receipt.. as they can loose their lic. if caught.. and fines heavily ..

if you choose to remove it, I'd hollow it out(remove the media inside it) and put it back on.. no one is the wiser..
if you replace it.. fine the cause.. otherwise the replacement will die a fast death also..


Converters do die. They work by chemical reaction, and over time, the internal elements which cause that reaction, will corrode away. They do not have an infinite life span.

And you answered the question about running rich with your own comment. The back pressure as a result of the cat being there and functional, will affect the O2 sensor reading. Even a hollowed cat will have an impact on the pressure and flow, compared to what a functional cat provides.

People with Fieros who remove the cat, also tend to say how bad it smells without the cat.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

You answered your own question.

Anyone who breathes air (most of us I suspect) should be concerned with air quality. It's pretty easy to identify which cars don't have a cat by simply standing behind them while the engine's running. It stinks. Worse than that, it's harmful to us and every other living creature.

Replacing a cat doesn't need to be expensive. The cat doesn't impair performance. There's no valid logical reason not to replace the cat. This has been discussed many times here previously.


Yup.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 02:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Click Here to Email css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When I bought mine, it had a cat.... But it had been hollowed out by a certain now-defunct central-Illinois Fiero-only shop.

People commented that my exhaust was stinky. Like, eye-burning stinky.

I installed one of the Catco cats Rodney sells. Not only did the stinky complaints go away, the car passed Illinois emissions each time I went until the state eventually did away with inspections for pre-OBD 2 cars. The cat remains. I have no reason to remove it.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:


Replacing a cat doesn't need to be expensive. The cat doesn't impair performance. There's no valid logical reason not to replace the cat. This has been discussed many times here previously.


a ceramic monolith with a honeycomb structure doesn't impair performance, but a flat bed pellet type does big time...
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Report this Post07-17-2014 03:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Converters do die. They work by chemical reaction, and over time, the internal elements which cause that reaction, will corrode away. They do not have an infinite life span. you can clean a converter with a mix of water and vinegar and soak for 48 hours and it'll work as new..

And you answered the question about running rich with your own comment. The back pressure as a result of the cat being there and functional, will affect the O2 sensor reading. Even a hollowed cat will have an impact on the pressure and flow, compared to what a functional cat provides. sorry.. you see the ecu and o2 will adjust to the extra air flow through the engine that would in FACT lean out the a/f not riching it.. the o2 will read the lean out and ad fuel to bring the a/r back into spec.. and we all know more air and fuel= more power

People with Fieros who remove the cat, also tend to say how bad it smells without the cat.

as far as the smell without the cat.. a clean running correct a/r and no miss fires and not burning oil will not smell at all.. when burning fuel with no ethanol.. and those using ethanol blended fuel you are smelling that.. all bets are off engine that are running like crap.. and most can tell car with a converter removed because it was running like crap,killed the converter and was removed, and the owner never addressed the issue in the first place..
converters don't die.. something upstream kills them.. and is why there are vehicles with 800k+ miles on them with the original converter on it. and still passing inspections with very clean emissions..
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Report this Post07-17-2014 03:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 Vintage FieroClick Here to Email 86 Vintage FieroSend a Private Message to 86 Vintage FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
With all the information given I will make the right decision. I did have one other question --Could this be the reason why my check engine light comes on? Now that i think about it -- it usually comes on if I accelerate a little faster than normal, or am I just thinking or hoping that will solve that problem?
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Report this Post07-17-2014 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Don't be confused by the lack of emissions checks or classic car requirements for emissions. Noise laws also cover emissions equipment, and removing the cat, or even having it hollowed out, will still place your car in violation of the noise ordinance in your area, .


False.. first off.. what is the noise ordinance in his state or county?? and have you tested by the D.O.T. standard to know that the db will be outside the ordinance.. ??

and as seen as many showroom fresh 2014 cars exhaust is louder than any 2.5ltr or 2.8ltr fiero's without a converter. I'm going to say.. you are wrong.. as the OEM'S have to pass these D.O.T. testing standards before the model and or part can be sold for use on public highways..
so do you have any data on your claim.. The shop that does my inspection stickers have the db meter and test every car for it. even if not required by state.. this way those with cars that are not just appliances, have the reading, incase they should get pulled over, and if they get a noise ticket.. have the test results to bring to court,
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Report this Post07-17-2014 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

E.Furgal

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quote
Originally posted by 86 Vintage Fiero:

With all the information given I will make the right decision. I did have one other question --Could this be the reason why my check engine light comes on? Now that i think about it -- it usually comes on if I accelerate a little faster than normal, or am I just thinking or hoping that will solve that problem?

the converter issue is from something up stream.. find that.. it might be the reason for the sel but not always... did the shop tell you if the converter is part plugged or media falling apart..

scan the ecu for codes..
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Report this Post07-17-2014 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Click Here to Email css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:

...and those using ethanol blended fuel you are smelling that..


Around here, that's most fuel.

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Report this Post07-17-2014 03:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
False.. first off.. what is the noise ordinance in his state or county?? and have you tested by the D.O.T. standard to know that the db will be outside the ordinance.. ??

and as seen as many showroom fresh 2014 cars exhaust is louder than any 2.5ltr or 2.8ltr fiero's without a converter. I'm going to say.. you are wrong.. as the OEM'S have to pass these D.O.T. testing standards before the model and or part can be sold for use on public highways..
so do you have any data on your claim.. The shop that does my inspection stickers have the db meter and test every car for it. even if not required by state.. this way those with cars that are not just appliances, have the reading, incase they should get pulled over, and if they get a noise ticket.. have the test results to bring to court,


Have you ever even read a noise ordinance? They don't tend to be scientific. They tend to say things like no modification which increases the volume over stock equipment, at least in terms of emissions equipment. So depending on the wording of the exact law one is being charged with violating, a single dB reading isn't enough. You will need the dB readings of a fully stock new car to compare those readings with. Obviously every noise ordinance in every locality may be different. I was merely stating a possibility, not the exact description of the OP's local noise ordinance. It requires more research than arguing about it on a forum, if you want specifics for a specific locality.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 03:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
converters don't die.. something upstream kills them..


Not so:

http://davisconverters.com/Pellet-Converter.shtml
The catalyst container was fitted with one or two beds of ceramic pebbles (pellets) coated with a catalyst. This type of catalytic converter suffered from poor service life due to vibration-induced attrition of the catalytic coating; this also produced additional particulate emissions and the pellet bed caused high exhaust back pressure, resulting in poor engine performance. Pellet-type catalytic converters have been superseded by monolithic converters.

Although far less likely, monolithic converters can also fail by the casing being exposed to thermal shock when exposed to sufficient snow and ice causing a distortion of the case and loosening of the media within the casing. Vibration takes over from there.

 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
as far as the smell without the cat.. a clean running correct a/r and no miss fires and not burning oil will not smell at all..


I disagree. Being the owner of a medium scale car storage facility housing roughly 90 cars where approximately half are pre-1975 (ie pre-catalyst era) and roughly half of those are fully restored, pristine classic cars, I can tell you from experience that the non-catalytic converter equipped cars emit substantially more odour than cars with catalysts. I also have direct experience on Fieros regarding the matter. Having recently rebuilt an '86 Fiero 2.8L with a brand new converter, and having rebuilt an '88 Fiero 2.8L without one, I can tell you from a side by side comparison that there is a noticeable difference in the odour the two cars emit. I can have the owner of the '88 testify to that as well.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:

as far as the smell without the cat.. a clean running correct a/r and no miss fires and not burning oil will not smell at all.. when burning fuel with no ethanol.. and those using ethanol blended fuel you are smelling that.. all bets are off engine that are running like crap.. and most can tell car with a converter removed because it was running like crap,killed the converter and was removed, and the owner never addressed the issue in the first place..
converters don't die.. something upstream kills them.. and is why there are vehicles with 800k+ miles on them with the original converter on it. and still passing inspections with very clean emissions..


No, the AFR changes by removing the cat, in a negative way, and the simple fix is installing a new cat. Also, the ethanol content is irrelevant there. Running pure gas isn't going to make the smell go away. It will smell only slightly different, and still smell bad, and still irritate your eyes.

Yes, converters do die. And yes, problems in the engine that result in contaminants in the exhaust will cause it to die more quickly. Please show me this 800K+ mile vehicle with an original cat though.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by 86 Vintage Fiero:

With all the information given I will make the right decision. I did have one other question --Could this be the reason why my check engine light comes on? Now that i think about it -- it usually comes on if I accelerate a little faster than normal, or am I just thinking or hoping that will solve that problem?


I bet it's the code for the O2 sensor if you can check for the code when it's stored.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Have you ever even read a noise ordinance? They don't tend to be scientific. They tend to say things like no modification which increases the volume over stock equipment, at least in terms of emissions equipment. So depending on the wording of the exact law one is being charged with violating, a single dB reading isn't enough. You will need the dB readings of a fully stock new car to compare those readings with. Obviously every noise ordinance in every locality may be different. I was merely stating a possibility, not the exact description of the OP's local noise ordinance. It requires more research than arguing about it on a forum, if you want specifics for a specific locality.


false they have a db test of x db from so many meters.. and most it's law..
the d.o.t. has one that most states copy/follow.. if what you posted was even close to being true.. every aftermarket exhaust system would be iilegal for sale and use on public highways..
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Report this Post07-17-2014 04:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:


I disagree. Being the owner of a medium scale car storage facility housing roughly 90 cars where approximately half are pre-1975 (ie pre-catalyst era) and roughly half of those are fully restored, pristine classic cars, I can tell you from experience that the non-catalytic converter equipped cars emit substantially more odour than cars with catalysts. I also have direct experience on Fieros regarding the matter. Having recently rebuilt an '86 Fiero 2.8L with a brand new converter, and having rebuilt an '88 Fiero 2.8L without one, I can tell you from a side by side comparison that there is a noticeable difference in the odour the two cars emit. I can have the owner of the '88 testify to that as well.


now, boozeberry take anyone of those pre 75 cars.. any of them.. grab an wideband a/f meter and test it.. now tune the ign and fuel so it runs at the best a/r% for clean power and now stand back and smell.. just because a car is restored back to showroom doesn't mean it's running correctly.. and all this takes is jets and/or needle seats, and a ign spring kit to recurve the timing for todays fuel.. sure a car build back to specs of high lead fuel and that wasn't tuned for mpg.. as fuel was cheap.. will smell when screwed back together as it rolled of showroom floor.. hand that vehicle to any good mechanic to tune up, and get the best power and mpg.. and it'll not even be like its the same car.. our fiero's are EFI.. they keep the a/r close but not perfect.. but close enough that if running non ethanol fuel, and not burning oil. and the ign and efi working correctly, it won't stink.. the stink is unburned hydrocarbons.. something a well running and tuned engine doesn't have many of going out the tail pipe.. those pre 75 cars you talk about, as delivered from the factory.. had huge amounts out the tail pipe.. as there wasn't any reason to bother tuning every unit so they didn't.. but you can.. and many do..
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dobey
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Report this Post07-17-2014 04:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
false they have a db test of x db from so many meters.. and most it's law..
the d.o.t. has one that most states copy/follow.. if what you posted was even close to being true.. every aftermarket exhaust system would be iilegal for sale and use on public highways..


False. The DOT does not control local noise ordinances.

What I posted is close to being true. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted it.

 
quote
ยง 46.2-1049. Exhaust system in good working order.

No person shall drive and no owner of a vehicle shall permit or allow the operation of any such vehicle on a highway unless it is equipped with an exhaust system in good working order and in constant operation to prevent excessive or unusual levels of noise; provided however, that for motor vehicles, such exhaust system shall be of a type installed as standard factory equipment, or comparable to that designed for use on the particular vehicle as standard factory equipment. An exhaust system shall not be deemed to prevent excessive or unusual noise if it permits the escape of noise in excess of that permitted by the standard factory equipment exhaust system of private passenger motor vehicles or trucks of standard make.

The term "exhaust system," as used in this section, means all the parts of a vehicle through which the exhaust passes after leaving the engine block, including mufflers and other sound dissipative devices.

Chambered pipes are not an effective muffling device to prevent excessive or unusual noise, and any vehicle equipped with chambered pipes shall be deemed in violation of this section.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to converted electric vehicles.


This is the Code of Virginia section describing exactly what I stated. It has no mention of dB levels. It only talks about factory equipped noise levels. Anything louder than that, is deemed "excessive" in Virginia. So yes, most aftermarket systems are technically illegal in Virginia. Not to sell, only to install/use on road.
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dobey

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quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
those pre 75 cars you talk about, as delivered from the factory.. had huge amounts out the tail pipe.. as there wasn't any reason to bother tuning every unit so they didn't.. but you can.. and many do..


So did Fieros, because even in the 80s, engines were still not burning fuel as efficiently as they should have been. Which is why you should install a new honeycomb cat on a Fiero.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


No, the AFR changes by removing the cat, in a negative way, and the simple fix is installing a new cat. Also, the ethanol content is irrelevant there. Running pure gas isn't going to make the smell go away. It will smell only slightly different, and still smell bad, and still irritate your eyes.

Yes, converters do die. And yes, problems in the engine that result in contaminants in the exhaust will cause it to die more quickly. Please show me this 800K+ mile vehicle with an original cat though.


you have any taxi services near you.. just stop in..

if the o2 feed back trim is working then the a/r % will not change as the ecu will add fuel to bring it back into line.. p.s. that's why the o2 is there.. even the narrow band type in our fieros will bring it back to spec.. and we'll agree to disagree.. converters die or not..

converter test show that after 250k of use with a correctly running engine in front of it. it looses 0.00009% of the convertion material from new.. unless you have a vehicle with a few million miles on it.. you'll not "wear out" a converter.. materials..
pop off a converter, cap one end and fill with 85% vinegar 15%distilled water.. and shake it every 8 hours or so.. in 48 hours it'll work as if it was built yesterday.. pellet converters once the pellets start moving around the coatings go out the pipe.. but the monolith type that is what's been in use since the pellet type got shown the door, has nothing into that can move.. if the core is moving it's because it overheated from raw fuel passing through it.. that will plug it, and/or break the honeycomb into pieces and one small bump of your hand and you can tell if that's happened..
We contracted for taxis and police cruisers.. many had way over 800k on the converters..
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
now, boozeberry take anyone of those pre 75 cars.. any of them.. grab an wideband a/f meter and test it..


I'm glad you cleared that up for me. But while you were at it, I'm not sure why you didn't try to explain the difference between the two Fieros I mentioned. I'm also interested to know whether I've convinced you that converters do indeed die from reasons other than upstream problems.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


This is the Code of Virginia section describing exactly what I stated. It has no mention of dB levels. It only talks about factory equipped noise levels. Anything louder than that, is deemed "excessive" in Virginia. So yes, most aftermarket systems are technically illegal in Virginia. Not to sell, only to install/use on road.


yes every state has their own laws on noise but the D.O.T. has a standard that is less than the local as the oem's have to be able to meet all of them.. this is common sense..
and fact if you get pulled over for exhaust noise. the officer in all 50 states..has acess to the db meter to test to the federal d.o.t. standards.. and/or local.. they don't just go, well that's not stock. here is your ticket..
sorry buddy.. but even Virginia has a db exhaust limit.. and if that was the case the officers would have to have every vehicles original db spec in a datebase.. and it be different for every model.. and not one v twin would be in that state.. so come on.. every new v8 car sold today would be illegal.. as it's louder than the same engine family in another car/truck..
where do you come up with this stuff..
this is not to say that cop's haven't decided to write tickets because they "think" it's to loud.. but they loose that in court everytime.. only ones that never fight those. know dam well. they are way over the db test limit..
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I suspect that the inclusion of a catalytic converter was mandated by the same corrupt bureaucrats that pass other useless laws. IF the cat is so great why is it that I've had cars pass inspections with gutted units?
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"

False. The DOT does not control local noise ordinances.

What I posted is close to being true. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted it."
__________________________________________________________________

YOU DO KNOW THAT the d.o.t. noise regs are what killed off the Pontiac t/a shaker scoop.. and most open scoops on carb's
and why every air cleaner air box has a muffler..

http://www.semasan.com/page...oise_states&g=SEMAGA
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:


I'm glad you cleared that up for me. But while you were at it, I'm not sure why you didn't try to explain the difference between the two Fieros I mentioned. I'm also interested to know whether I've convinced you that converters do indeed die from reasons other than upstream problems.


if you read my post that said a correctly tuned and running engine. you'd have never posted about some restored to stock pre 75 cars..

and if you read what I posted on converter material erosion after 250k.. it answer the converter dieing part.. that test was done by the E.P.A. by the way..
the fiero, I also addressed in a post, saying that the obI narrow band o2 feed back does a good job but isn't perfect.. now go into the ecu tune and clean up the factory tune and put your nose to the tail pipe..
the fiero ecu is lazy on correction, hightec at the time, but painfully slow . the oem idle tune isn't a lot to be desired, and can be cleaned up a ton..
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

I suspect that the inclusion of a catalytic converter was mandated by the same corrupt bureaucrats that pass other useless laws.


So you're suggesting having a cat installed is in essence "useless"?

 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

IF the cat is so great why is it that I've had cars pass inspections with gutted units?


Depending on a lot of variables (including year of manufacture and jurisdiction), the allowed levels of pollutants vary. For example, it's very easy for a properly running '87 Fiero GT to pass the smog tests here without a cat. But the very same engine in an '88 Fiero GT will not be able to pass the smog test without a cat because the allowed levels of pollutants are lower for '88 and newer vehicles. A functional cat is required to be able to meet those lower levels/higher restrictions.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-17-2014).]

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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

I suspect that the inclusion of a catalytic converter was mandated by the same corrupt bureaucrats that pass other useless laws. IF the cat is so great why is it that I've had cars pass inspections with gutted units?


Because you have such a simplistic world view.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
sorry buddy.. but even Virginia has a db exhaust limit..


LOL. OK. I guess you know the law in a state you don't live in, better than the printed law of that state itself.

You win. Cats are all Obama's fault.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

I suspect that the inclusion of a catalytic converter was mandated by the same corrupt bureaucrats that pass other useless laws. IF the cat is so great why is it that I've had cars pass inspections with gutted units?



back in 74-75 when g.m. started putting them into use engines where very dirty emissions wise/// today.. engines are so clean and so controlled.. they don't do much until you drop the hammer..
it was cheaper to dumb them in the exhaust than to install carbs so perfect to clean up the emissions.. and then keep the carbs air bleeds clean.. and everything in spec... including the timing.. remember mechanical ign and fuel control.. moving parts wear..
and why the ecu controls it all with almost no moving parts..
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


LOL. OK. I guess you know the law in a state you don't live in, better than the printed law of that state itself.

You win. Cats are all Obama's fault.


if there isn't d.o.t. limit why police stations/forces equipped with db meters.. even in that state.. they don't spend money on equipment if they don't need it..
when home I'll look up the epa rules laws... that are all 50 state and started in the mid 70's and why the t/a scoop was closed off..

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 07-17-2014).]

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Report this Post07-17-2014 06:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most noise laws just say 'excessive noise' which is very subjective. What exactly is excessive ? Corvettes offer factory installed cut outs in the exhaust to bypass the mufflers. Its factory, so its legal since its as installed by manufacturer.. What If you put the same ones on your Impala...now its excessive noise ? How do Harley Davidson motorcycles get by any noise laws. I hear them all the time at 2am from usually a mile away...why cant my car be that loud ? If the law states an actual acceptable dbl, either all Harleys should be taken off the street, or I can do anything I want as long as my car doesnt exceed the same levels they do.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 06:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
if there isn't d.o.t. limit why police stations/forces equipped with db meters.. even in that state.. they don't spend money on equipment if they don't need it..
when home I'll look up the epa rules laws... that are all 50 state and started in the mid 70's and why the t/a scoop was closed off..


Maybe you haven't realized but I never said their wasn't a DOT specification on noise levels of exhaust. I'm talking about state and local laws, not the DOT.

Of course also states must follow the Federal regulations as well. But states ARE allowed to be more strict than Federal in such matters. Just ask anyone who lives in California about emissions requirements.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:
Corvettes offer factory installed cut outs in the exhaust to bypass the mufflers. Its factory, so its legal since its as installed by manufacturer..


Are you talking about the vacuum controlled butterfly valves in the tips of the C6? They do not bypass the mufflers. They are after the mufflers. All they do is route the exhaust through both of the outputs on each tip, or only one, which changes the exhaust note and volume.
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