So I've been planning a swap for years. Initially I was going to do a 4.9 just to save some money, thinking it would be "good enough". But I just couldn't ever get any real enthusiasm behind it, so the car sat with no cradle in the garage for about 7 years, driving Lori crazy because she couldn't park in the garage. The time finally came a few weeks ago where I decided I either needed to get my ass in gear and work on the car, or I needed to sell it. It was just sitting there and I felt guilty every time I walked by it in the morning to go to work. I finally accepted that I just didn't want a Cadillac motor. I wanted a 350. I know the Cadillac is a great swap, and would have been plenty for what I intend to do with the car. But I"m a guy who just simply gets a chubby whenever I hear a nicely built small block. And frankly, I'm 55 years old, and this is likely the last build I'll ever do for myself, and I just decided to do what I want. So I put out feelers for a V8 drop out so that much of the fabrication work that I didn't want to mess with would be done. I purchased some swap parts, and then got a lead on this setup-
An 01 block number 350, no idea what it's out of or the year yet. It was apparently purchased by the person who sold it to me, from another forum member who built it. I'm trying to contact the person who built it to get whatever info I can on it. It was represented by the person I bought it from to be a full roller motor (which it is not) but he also stated the motor was probably no good, as it had water in it. The story is that it sat outside covered up and that someone stole the carb off of it and left it exposed. Frankly whether it was a full roller motor or even if it was any good was pretty irrelevant to me, as I got such a great price I just simply can not complain. I was fully prepared for it to be bad. I started pulling it apart today, and sure enough, it had quite a bit of water in it. There was water standing in the cylinders, but the rockers look pretty clean except for a couple, and the top side in general really doesn't look too awful. My thought was that if I needed to I could have the cylinders bored out .030 to .040 and replace the pistons. I cleared all the water from the cylinders and dried them out and applied oil to the walls to keep them from flashing. It looks like there is some visible scarring. so I may have to replace the block. I measured the diameter of the cylinders to see if they had already been machined and it looks like they've already had about .040" removed already, so I may be sol.
The transmission is an Isuzu, and it has what I think is a unique link-less sway bar set up. I'll get more info on that as I go along. Not a lot of photos to share at this point, but once I get it off the cradle and can dig into it further I'll let you all know.
Don't feel bad about picking the SBC over the 4.9. I grew up with SBC's and my first V8 swap in a Fiero was a 1990 4.5 (smaller version of the 4.9). It took about 1 week of driving it to realize I wasn't happy with the engine and moved the 4.5 to the Roadster (the 4.9 is a good high torque cruiser engine) and swapped a SBC into my 88 Fiero.
The 4.9 has a lot of good points to it, but it wasn't for me.
I invested a boatload of money into a good 4.9 setup, which I sold to another forum member when I decided to jump into the SBC. I have no doubt if built correctly with the parts I accumulated that it will be a fantastic swap. But I'm a 70's kid. I've built a bunch of small blocks and I just knew in my gut that I had to have a 350 thumping behind my head, it was the only way I would be happy. It will be old school with a carb and a shaker hood scoop.
The SBC is more work than the 4.9, but an amazing array of options for the build. Tons of choices for every bolt on piece. The big downside with the 4.9 has always been that what you see is what you get. I wanted it for the torque for this particular build, but am also looking forward to my next swap which will be something a lot more unique.
If you've already measured it at 40 over and it's scored, then I recommend you pick up something fresh. Lots of SBCs out there. Are you really going to use the Isuzu? I guess driving style will dictate it's life expectancy.
So I've been planning a swap for years. Initially I was going to do a 4.9 just to save some money, thinking it would be "good enough". But I just couldn't ever get any real enthusiasm behind it, so the car sat with no cradle in the garage for about 7 years, driving Lori crazy because she couldn't park in the garage.
Get rid of the wife or build a garage just for the Fiero ! I got a sister named Lori, what a pain in the ass she has been ! Must be something to do with the name.
Make sure when you build the garage it has a lift, heat, 240 Volt for BIG welders and running water for your shower when she kicks you out of the house !
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 07-14-2014).]
So in checking into the history of the motor I touched base with the person who had the motor before the person I bought it from (both members here, but I'll leave their names out of it just to respect their privacy. They may not care, but I'll let them tell me if they don't) Some of you may piece together who the players are based on my description, and may have some more info on the motor. If so, any insight you have to offer is more than welcome.
Anyway, apparently the original builder passed away some years back. I don't know who that was, so I can't really go back and research it further. But the story I have so far is that the motor/car was on Archie's page for a while and was installed in an F40 kit, and then removed a installed in a non-rebodied Fiero. It presumably has a 400 crank in it, making it a 383. I haven't gotten to the bottom end yet, so I don't know the condition of the rotating assembly, but I know it's been submerged in oily water. I think the fact that it's actually been submerged may be the saving grace, as it's likely never been exposed to air after getting wet. Additionally, I doubt either the pistons nor the rods would be compromised by surface rust, and the crank can be turned down .010 if there is any significant pitting on the journals.
So I started tearing down the top side yesterday. I had pulled the dip stick and there was some surface rust, but it really wasn't all that bad.
Pulled the valve covers to get a look at the rockers-
They actually aren't near as bad as they look in the pictures. Only a couple had rust under the pivot ball, and they may be salvageable. Worst case I'll have to buy 3 or 4, and that's if I decide to reuse these at all. They're only 1.52:1, and I may decide to go with 1.6 or 1.7, depending on the cam I choose. The springs were perfect, although I have a brand new set of Lunati beehive springs, so I'll be using them.
Intake is loose, let's look underneath....
Overall it looks pretty clean underneath. Only a couple of push rods with rust on them, but I also have a new set of Lunati push roods, so those won't be reused either.
Let's pull the plugs now....
Yup. About what one would expect from a motor that's been exposed to the weather with the intake open.... Didn't grab any pics before covering it up for the night, but the heads look fine. Some rust inside the ports as one would expect, but it doesn't appear that the heads have been ported or polished, so any rust will be dealt with during that process, along with shrouding the valves. The pistons don't look any worse for wear, but as I mentioned before, the cylinders above the water line have some corrosion. I'll get a ball hone and see what happens, but if I have to replace the block, I'm still in really good shape overall regarding this purchase. I mopped up all the water in the cylinders and applied a liberal amount of oil to the cylinder walls just in case there's any chance of salvaging the block, don't want it to flash rust. I'm hoping to get into it deeper this week, should have the bottom end apart and the cam out by the weekend.
You should be OK unless it sat full of water in a freezing conditions. Water won't hurt anything unless it sat against cast iron rings for years, causing them to rust into the cylinders. Many, many old tractors engines end up stuck this way. If it turns over by hand, it should be fine.
The casting number on the head appears to be 144022301. That's from 1980 to 86, which makes sense because a carb manifold bolts up plus its not centerbolt valve covers. They are 58cc combustion chambers which means you need dished pistons for regular gas but they are only 1.84/1.5 valves, a little on the small side for what you think could be a 377 cubic inch motor. Any pics of the cylinders?
[This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 07-14-2014).]
The casting number on the head appears to be 144022301. That's from 1980 to 86, which makes sense because a carb manifold bolts up plus its not centerbolt valve covers. They are 58cc combustion chambers which means you need dished pistons for regular gas but they are only 1.84/1.5 valves, a little on the small side for what you think could be a 377 cubic inch motor. Any pics of the cylinders?
Actually, it's a 383 stroker, 400 crank, +.040 bore. I just checked the head casting number and it's a 260, not a 230, which seems to be an 80-86 305. The specs I found indicate that it should have 1.84 intake, however, I measured the valve on these heads and the intake is 1.94 by 1.5 exh. No pics of the cylinders or the chambers. Going to be interesting digging around this motor.
A little more research leads me to believe the heads are actually 305 H.P. heads. The opinions I've read so far suggest that these heads with a 400 crank give 10:1 compression. I'll be cleaning up one of the chambers and measuring the capacity to determine the size and to calculate the true CR. What I've read also states that if properly ported and polished these heads work great on the 350. When I first started reading I was thinking the original builder may have made a poor choice with these heads. Which, strictly speaking, left in their stock form, they are. The CR comes up, but they don't flow as well as the stock 350 heads. Once they get the PP work, they'll be a great choice if the sources I've looked at are at all reliable.
[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 07-15-2014).]
I dont understand why people leave an engine outside exposed. But hopefully this one works out without too much extra work to clean up for ya.
Hi, My name is Fireboss..
And Im DumbAZZ who had this out side ....
It had been covered up and then some one stole the carb and rims as well as other stuff.(it was at my brothers house and he had a fire and wasn't at the residence for awhile} crackhead scrappers!!
It had been covered up and then some one stole the carb and rims as well as other stuff.(it was at my brothers house and he had a fire and wasn't at the residence for awhile} crackhead scrappers!!
So I separated the engine and transmission last night so I could finish tearing it apart. Came apart pretty easy and got it on the stand with no problem. I was surprised to find that Ace hardware actually carries grade 6 bolts. (for mounting the engine to the stand)
I purchased a 80 grit abrasive impregnated nylon brush with a 1/4 arbor and used it with lots of oil to remove the worst of the rust from the cylinder bores. Once I finished with that I tried to turn it over but it still wouldn't budge. There was one piston that was at the very top, and I was pretty sure there was just a layer of rust around the top that was keeping it from moving. So I drained about 3 gallons of water a few quarts of oil from the pan so I could flip the engine over and pull the pan. The plan was to remove as many pistons as I could and hopefully be able to get to the point where I could turn the crank and get to the rest. It was a little scary at first glance looking at the rotating assembly, but what I discovered is that the brown stuff isn't actually rust, it's just sludge from the water and oil. In fact, everything for the most part seems to be in pretty good shape.
You can see in that second picture I have one of the pistons removed and the crank journal is actually in really good shape.
It worked! Once I got about half the pistons out and removed the rod cap from the one suspect piston the crank turned quite easily. I was able to remove the rest of the pistons except the one and then pull the crank which gave me unrestricted access to the bottom of the stuck piston. I was able to knock it back down into the bore exposing the ring of rust along the top. I cleaned that off and it popped right out. All in all, the block looks OK. I'll get a hone in there and see what's left. If there's any pitting after it's honed then I guess I"ll just resign myself to a new block. At least the rotating assembly is in good shape, so i can save the parts needed to keep it a stroker motor.
No rust actually on the crank or the cam (just a layer of goo). I'm going to build a jig to try to get rough measurements on the cam, but I suspect I'll end up replacing it, as I really would like to do a hydraulic roller cam for the snappy RPM ramp.
Yeah, but they don't do well with water in the crankcase. Cleaned the block and ran a hone through the worst cylinders; end result is it's trash. Too much scarring in the cylinders to be usable. So now I'm looking for a new block. Will probably get better heads while I'm at it. All in all, it was still a great deal, and the rotating assembly *is* still in good shape, although I'm going to run the crank up to the machine shop to have them clean it and check the journals and make sure. So I'll get another 350, have it punched out .040' and put the crank and pistons in it. I don't know if this set up was balanced, so I'll probably have the pins pressed out and balance everything since I have this delay in the build.
Punch it out or sleeve it. Don't throw it away. All of the machine work and cleaning and inspecting of another (expensive) 4 bolt block will cost more than a set of sleeves. Do the pistons have the overbore stamped on them? You can easily go .060 over on a 350.
------------------ 1986 SE Aero coupe.
3.4 DOHC swap is complete and running, now just have to finish the rest of the car...
How about going for a new Dart block. At $1500 they are a lot better deal than a used GM block. Bigger water passages, high nickel content and better oiling. All the machining is done except the final bore. The 4 inch and 4 1/8 inch blocks give you all kinds of options for displacement and accept all the regular chevy parts. They are set up to run the factory style roller cam, lifters, retainers and spider. Doing a retro fit on an older GM block to run a roller cam can be quit expensive. If you can find a 350 already freshened up with a roller cam in it, that would be the cheapest way to go. Don't make light of the better cooling design of the dart blocks. In a Fiero the better cooling is a real advantage. My roller cam 427 never runs hot, even in heavy traffic, on a hot, humid day. I can't say the same for the GM 400 it replaced.
Punch it out or sleeve it. Don't throw it away. All of the machine work and cleaning and inspecting of another (expensive) 4 bolt block will cost more than a set of sleeves. Do the pistons have the overbore stamped on them? You can easily go .060 over on a 350.
Ditto... check the pistons... It's a LOT cheaper to bore what you have and get a new set of (floating pin!) pistons than it is to get a new block. Also, your factory 4 bolt block is nice.
Well, this thing is full of surprises. First off, it's not a 383 as first thought. I took the crank to have it worked on and the guy took one look at the numbers and proclaimed that it is in fact your run of the mill 350 crank. Then he put a micrometer on the pistons and it turns out my caliper that I used to measure the cylinder bore was off. The pistons are in fact .060 over. Good grief. So, there's no where to go with the block, and frankly, even if there were, a block is cheaper than a new set of oversized pistons. having the block sleeved will also cost me more than it would to just get a replacement block, as just about every bore is hosed. At this point I got myself so excited about a 383 that I've decided to just pursue that route. The machine shop where I get my work done says he has some 400 rods, I'll reuse the .060 over pistons, and I just need to track down the right crank. I also have a friend who says he has a few 4 bolt blocks laying around and will get me one cheap, and he also says he has some 202 heads, so I'll grab a set of those to go with it. I'll sell off the 305 heads that were holding this motor back, as well as the crank and recover at least a little of my money. I'll give the old block to my friend to recycle.
So, I may not know what engine is in this setup, but I do know it has a very cool anti-sway bar.
First, it's very big-
Second, it uses brackets that have been added to the cradle for the center mounts...(obviously the cradle is upside down for the photo op)
Third, it doesn't use end links- (all the mounting brackets are removed, just the rubber bushings are in place for reference)
Basically, it uses center links on the ends. The bushings are rubber, not poly. I would guess it might be too stiff with anything other than rubber. I do need to modify the ends a bit, probably make some kind of spacer block the lower the end bushings a bit, as they weren't mounted flush with the bottom of the A arm. The rear lip of the A arm interferes with the bar and prevents the end from really being set properly. No idea what this bar is off of. If anyone has any inside info on this setup I'd love to know the story. With the right modifications I can see it as being far superior to the typical Fiero bar that uses heim joints and end links.
Well, this thing is full of surprises. First off, it's not a 383 as first thought. I took the crank to have it worked on and the guy took one look at the numbers and proclaimed that it is in fact your run of the mill 350 crank. Then he put a micrometer on the pistons and it turns out my caliper that I used to measure the cylinder bore was off. The pistons are in fact .060 over. Good grief. So, there's no where to go with the block, and frankly, even if there were, a block is cheaper than a new set of oversized pistons. having the block sleeved will also cost me more than it would to just get a replacement block, as just about every bore is hosed. At this point I got myself so excited about a 383 that I've decided to just pursue that route. The machine shop where I get my work done says he has some 400 rods, I'll reuse the .060 over pistons, and I just need to track down the right crank. I also have a friend who says he has a few 4 bolt blocks laying around and will get me one cheap, and he also says he has some 202 heads, so I'll grab a set of those to go with it. I'll sell off the 305 heads that were holding this motor back, as well as the crank and recover at least a little of my money. I'll give the old block to my friend to recycle.
look for LB9 305 heads, pretty much the same head as an L98 head except with smaller chambers, those or a set of vortecs would be your best bet IMO.
Well, this thing is full of surprises. First off, it's not a 383 as first thought. I took the crank to have it worked on and the guy took one look at the numbers and proclaimed that it is in fact your run of the mill 350 crank. Then he put a micrometer on the pistons and it turns out my caliper that I used to measure the cylinder bore was off. The pistons are in fact .060 over. Good grief. So, there's no where to go with the block, and frankly, even if there were, a block is cheaper than a new set of oversized pistons. having the block sleeved will also cost me more than it would to just get a replacement block, as just about every bore is hosed. At this point I got myself so excited about a 383 that I've decided to just pursue that route. The machine shop where I get my work done says he has some 400 rods, I'll reuse the .060 over pistons, and I just need to track down the right crank. I also have a friend who says he has a few 4 bolt blocks laying around and will get me one cheap, and he also says he has some 202 heads, so I'll grab a set of those to go with it. I'll sell off the 305 heads that were holding this motor back, as well as the crank and recover at least a little of my money. I'll give the old block to my friend to recycle.
If at all possible, get a factory roller cam block. Also, you don't need to worry about 4 bolt vs. 2 bolt. A 2 bolt is fine for any 400 HP build. There are pistons for 383's and 400's with 5.700" rods, so if you get a set of those in standard bore or .030 over, you could reuse your current rods. 400 rods are thinner where the shaft joins the big end than 350 rods. GM built them that way for block clearance, so you may need to notch the bottoms of the bores if you use 350 rods. The 350 rod is stronger than the 400 rod and the longer rod will give you better geometry in your rotating assembly than the shorter one will.
quote
Originally posted by Taijiguy:
So, I may not know what engine is in this setup, but I do know it has a very cool anti-sway bar.
Basically, it uses center links on the ends. The bushings are rubber, not poly. I would guess it might be too stiff with anything other than rubber. I do need to modify the ends a bit, probably make some kind of spacer block the lower the end bushings a bit, as they weren't mounted flush with the bottom of the A arm. The rear lip of the A arm interferes with the bar and prevents the end from really being set properly. No idea what this bar is off of. If anyone has any inside info on this setup I'd love to know the story. With the right modifications I can see it as being far superior to the typical Fiero bar that uses heim joints and end links.
Looks like it's an A-body or X-body front bar.
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
look for LB9 305 heads, pretty much the same head as an L98 head except with smaller chambers, those or a set of vortecs would be your best bet IMO.
Need to evaluate compression ratio with slight dish pistons and those heads... may come out to something too high for iron.
If at all possible, get a factory roller cam block. Also, you don't need to worry about 4 bolt vs. 2 bolt. A 2 bolt is fine for any 400 HP build. There are pistons for 383's and 400's with 5.700" rods, so if you get a set of those in standard bore or .030 over, you could reuse your current rods. 400 rods are thinner where the shaft joins the big end than 350 rods. GM built them that way for block clearance, so you may need to notch the bottoms of the bores if you use 350 rods. The 350 rod is stronger than the 400 rod and the longer rod will give you better geometry in your rotating assembly than the shorter one will.
Given I'm building an early motor (already have all the swap parts) I doubt a factory roller motor is in my future. And yeah, a 4 bolt may be unnecessary for a 400-450 hp motor, but they aren't that hard to come by, and I'll feel better with a 4 bolt. I just picked up a factory forged crank for a 400 that was re-worked by Lunati, so I'll have that ground down for the 350 mains. I'll keep the 400 rods so I won't have to have the rod journals ground down. I consulted a few people on using the 400 rods. and while they may put a bit more lateral pressure on the piston, this isn't a 10,000 rpm motor, and I'm not going to be running it hard for extended periods of time, and frankly, the difference int he ratios isn't all that much. While purely anecdotal, I've read far more stories of people successfully running 400 rods on the street than I have those who have had failures with them.
As it stands I intend to use the +.060 pistons with 400 rods on the crank I just bought. I'll run 202 heads and try to keep the c/r at around 10:1. I may go with a slightly smaller cam but then use high ratio rockers to emulate a steeper ramp, add a couple of degrees of duration, and minimize the possibility that I'll have to clearance the rods for the cam. I also intend to balance the rotating assembly. I'll run the stealth intake that came with the motor, and probably an Edelbrock carb.
There isn't any reason not to use a roller cam block. For about $50 you can use the old style crank in a roller cam block. Many also come with 4 bolt mains (not needed) and vortec heads which outflow your 202 heads.
Larger cube SBCs will run out of air at a lower rpm, so to have a non-truck power band you need to maximize the flow of your heads and run a good camshaft. Using a roller block and vortec heads (or aftermarket equivalent) is a low cost step in the right direction.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-22-2014).]
There isn't any reason not to use a roller cam block. For about $50 you can use the old style crank in a roller cam block. Many also come with 4 bolt mains (not needed) and vortec heads which outflow your 202 heads.
Larger cube SBCs will run out of air at a lower rpm, so to have a non-truck power band you need to maximize the flow of your heads and run a good camshaft. Using a roller block and vortec heads (or aftermarket equivalent) is a low cost step in the right direction.
It seems just too spendy to go through all of that. Especially given I already have an intake and a set of roller rockers from the original motor. I can (will) use a retrofit roller cam/lifter setup, which overall would still be cheaper in terms of added expense. And while the vortec heads may outflow the 202s, it would probably be overkill for my purposes to go to all the added expense. I don't have unlimited funds to throw at this project. I'm already going over budget with the simple plans I have now. I'm picking up a complete 350 with good block and 202 heads for 300 bucks. i don't think I'm going to touch a complete roller block for anywhere near that, if I can even find one.
It appears you have an Archie V8 kit so that means you have a flywheel for the two piece rear main seal so if you were to get a late model block you'd have to go through the expense of buying a one piece seal style flywheel also.
It appears you have an Archie V8 kit so that means you have a flywheel for the two piece rear main seal so if you were to get a late model block you'd have to go through the expense of buying a one piece seal style flywheel also.
I think what Guru was referring to is that they make an adapter that allows you to use a two piece seal and crank in a later block. That would probably suggest you could also use the flywheel. I'm just not gong to go through all of that. I found a nice rebuildable 010 block complete, with 202 heads and all the fixins. In going with a stroker setup I'm already going way outside of my budget with the extra machine work, and getting the externally balanced flywheel and balancer. I'm willing to spend some extra, but I have to be realistic about my cost/benefit. I just want a nice healthy streetable motor, and I think my current plans will make for that. I don't have the inclination to Frankenstein an early/late engine combination just to be able to say I did. It's just too complicated, and not really worth it to me. I can port the heads and shroud the valves and make them flow well enough to suit my needs. I know the vortecs are superior, and would love to run them, but they just aren't in the budget right now. I'll probably have to pull everything at some point to replace the transmission which I'll inevitably destroy. I might decide to switch them out then, when I put in a transmission that will be able to handle the power. I suspect this Isuzu I have won't last too long.
I think you are right about the Isuzu tranny. Seems to me I've read about a number of sbc conversions blowing them up.
It might be a good idea to factor in some money for some tranny work while you are at it.
I went the other way and put in a carb'd 4.9. I'm making 206 at the wheels @245 ftlbs. at the wheels. You should get quite a bit better. Good luck
You know I was doing a 4.9 originally, but I just couldn't get my mind off of the sound of a nicely built SBC. So I decided to just do what I really wanted.
I can imagine these Isuzus don't last long as I'm sure it's almost impossible to keep your foot out of a Fiero with 300-400 horses and just as much torque. I'm just planning to design the whole setup for quick removal should I need to drop the cradle. I'll spend my money on the motor for now, and plan to replace the trans later, and if I feel the need, upgrade the heads and intake.
If you can find an M17 Muncie 4 speed for it with a Spec III clutch you'll have something a little stronger.
I always find that taking it back off the road for breakage is a bit of a PITA ;-)
BTW if you get the kevlar/ceramic disc on the clutch you won't get the chatter and grabbyness
Arn
You know I remember reading a discussion about clutches and chatter on the forum once. My experience has always been that without exception, any kind of chatter is the result of a pilot bearing issue. With this thick adapter plate it's unlikely the transmission pilot is even coming close to the crank. I wonder if anyone has tried to address that with some kind adapter that would extend the bearing to the outside of the crank....like a bearing with a housing that presses or is welded into the crank pilot bearing opening. I think you would need that with a swap using the thick adapter. I actually wondered about that when I pulled this setup apart.
I wondered about the pilot bushing when I did my swap. I looked at the extended bushing used in circle track cars. My Getrag didn't come with a bushing and many folks on the forum said I didn't need one. I used a spec 3+ clutch. I have no chatter or slippage (that I can detect) with my 427. I did resurface my flywheel, even though it was new. It seems you have chosen a path. Best of luck with your new motor. I'm sure it will get the job done.
There is no pilot bushing. FWD style transmissions do not use pilot bushings (at least GM FWD transmissions from the 80s and 90s don't). The input shaft does not extend far enough past the clutch assembly and does not come in contact with the crankshaft.
Originally posted by Taijiguy: I think what Guru was referring to is that they make an adapter that allows you to use a two piece seal and crank in a later block. That would probably suggest you could also use the flywheel.
Correct. My first SBC swap using an Archie kit was a 283. Later I went to a 350 and used the rear seal adapter to run a 2 piece rear main seal crankshaft in a 1 piece rear main seal, 4 bolt main, roller cam block. By doing this way I was able to keep the same Archie flywheel with the later model block.
quote
Originally posted by Taijiguy:
You know I remember reading a discussion about clutches and chatter on the forum once. My experience has always been that without exception, any kind of chatter is the result of a pilot bearing issue.
Clutch friction material type and clutch disk style are much more significant contributors to chatter (as well as style of engine/transmission mounts). The use of a pilot bearing or not has near zero impact. If it did, then every manual Fiero would have clutch chatter issues, when in reality the issue is more isolated to the guys/gals running a 4 or 6 puck ceramic/metallic clutches (Mostly Spec Stage 3 and equivalents).
quote
Originally posted by Taijiguy: With this thick adapter plate it's unlikely the transmission pilot is even coming close to the crank. I wonder if anyone has tried to address that with some kind adapter that would extend the bearing to the outside of the crank....like a bearing with a housing that presses or is welded into the crank pilot bearing opening. I think you would need that with a swap using the thick adapter. I actually wondered about that when I pulled this setup apart.
Fiero transmissions don't use and don't need a pilot bearing. Most RWD transmissions that use pilot bearings only have 1 bearing on the input shaft and are designed for the pilot bearing to support the other end. The Fiero transmissions have 2 bearings that fully support the input shaft. If you add a 3rd bearing to a solid shaft, all 3 must be in near perfect alignment (+/- 0.0005 or one of the bearings WILL prematurely fail. Its not uncommon to see +/- .003" to .008" variation in crankshaft centerline to dowel pin locations from engine to engine (and sometimes even more on older SBC's - yet another reason to use a newer block).
So unless you dial indicate your transmission to the crankshaft adjust it for near zero mis-alignment, then drill and dowel pin the adapter to the transmission and to the block, adding a pilot bearing to a fiero transmission is a very bad idea.
quote
Originally posted by woodyhere:
I wondered about the pilot bushing when I did my swap. I looked at the extended bushing used in circle track cars. My Getrag didn't come with a bushing and many folks on the forum said I didn't need one. I used a spec 3+ clutch. I have no chatter or slippage (that I can detect) with my 427.
See above about the pilot bearing.
The Spec Stage 3+, while it is a ceramic/metallic clutch, is a full face clutch. It has much less of an issue with chatter than the Spec Stage 3 (4 puck and 6 puck versions). Its the only clutch I recommend for cars in the 300 hp to 450 hp range, mainly due to its good drivability.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-23-2014).]
I got a sister named Lori, what a pain in the ass she has been ! Must be something to do with the name. 
