Well I finally got around to my long planned 4.9L project. Last year I secured a very good condition 68K mile engine and 4T60e. I heard it run and it sounded great but you never know with an old engine. This is the first time that I had the valve covers off and so far so good, They look super clean with no crud or sludge. Decided to replace the water pump as its better to do it now than later but that means also replacing the timing cover gasket. When you pry off an old pump the cover can move. If it does coolant will enter the engine so tomorrow off goes the balancer and timing cover. Also decided to do a clean up and there has been some progress. The challenge is to make the engine look nice as th 4.9L engine can look cluttered. After doing a few 3800SC swaps and another that is prepped and ready in my garage, I decided to try a 4.9L swap. Why. 1. Good engines and transmissions can be found very inexpensive. Paid $600 for this powertrain. Swap parts are also cheap and off the shelf. 2. They make great highway cruisers and can get 30 hwy MPG. 3. This engine will go in my convertible project and since the engine cruises at 65 mph at about 1700RPM it should be quiet on the long distance trips. 4. The engine is way better than stock and I never did the swap Here are a few pictures. Just getting started but as we progress we will post more.
Must say it looks clean in there. Leakdown test reads perfect. I am expecting good things
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-09-2014).]
I've done several 3800's and 4.9's. The 4.9 install can be very uncluttered and well organized. And they drive so well with very little fiddling. Put gas in it, change the oil.......drive. And the torque.....the torque......
What motivated me to try a 4.9L swap after doing a few 3800SC's is to try something that performs different and is inexpensive. I also got a great buy via www.Car-Part.com that I could not resist. Apparently there are many Cadillac owners who are elderly folks that don't drive very much. The cars stay low miles while they age and start looking ratty. Then the cars are junked and a 15 yr. old engine can still have quite a bit of life left in it. After looking inside the valve covers and inside oil pan with a fiber optic camera, everything looks remarkably clean . No sludge anywhere and cylinder leak down readings like a recent rebuild. Guess that the owner took good care of it. While the 4.9L is a much simpler swap than a 3800SC , I have not worked on these engine much and I'll probably end up spending more time than I need to on it. Tomorrow I will be sandblasting the manifolds and painting them with ceramic paint while we wait for the front cover/seal//water pump gasket set to arrive from Rock Auto. I've also got to hunt down some trans mounts from a 4T60. If I cannot find these then I will cut the rubber from the Caddy brackets and adapt/redrill these brackets to fit Fiero auto mounts, . I am aware that the 4.9L is an old design, but I am impressed by its durability record, its hwy mileage stats, the impressive torque and extremely light weight of at least 100 lbs less than my 3800SC. I don't see my fab skills as good as some of you guys, but the install will be neat and hopefully will work well. Comments and suggestions are welcome and appreciated. I will try to keep the picture coming.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I agree that Stickpony is great to work with and his programming for my 4.9 works great in the car. He has helped me with a lot of questions and is now willing to help me with a reprogram.
Making progress and should have more pics later today but ran into a snag. Engine is about 75% painted and prepared to be dropped in. Decided to change the water pump as preventative maintenance but wasn't sure if the integrity of the front cover was compromised so we decided to change the front cover gasket, water pump gasket (and pump) front oil seal and a rear WP housing gasket as well. Pulled the balancer and got to work. Its a bit of a tedious job lining up and sealing three gaskets on the same plate but it all came together in about 2 hours of disassembly, cleaning, painting and reassembly. Now that everything is in place, I treid all of my pulley and balancer installers and none had the right M16 x 2 thread size for the 4.9L crank. Checked around and no one carrys them. Anyone know where I can find a balancer installer w M12-2 threads or some threaded rod where I can make my own balancer puller?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I got mine from Partsource here in Canada on their loan a tool program. I expect you can get a loan a tool at the American car parts suppliers as well.
BTW, the water pump is the right move. I wouldn't remove the oil pan though, you'll have sealing difficulties with the replacement.
Cylinder pressure should exceed 200 psi.
If you can get the chip redone, the engine will perform cleanly to 6k rpm with no problems. It really is the best bang for the buck on a swap.
Made good progress this week. More degreasing, painting, sand blasting of the exhaust manifolds and getting the smaller C130 alternator fastened in place, bolted both sides and rear. New Water pump, front seal, valve cover (1), exhaust manifold (new studs) and front cover gaskets. Its all coming together nicely. Autozone came to the rescue with the loaner harmonic balancer installer. Now have to find the right size O rings for the fuel rail assembly (where the halfs) join together, get the fuel rail in mounted , the A/C compressor and finish the idler/tensioner positioning/fastening to get the drive belt in place. So here we go another venerable 4.9L swap for great torque, smooth operation and VG Hwy mileage.
----------------- " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-23-2014).]
Yours is running my isn't . Must say that being fussy slows one down. Currently waiting for some aluminum pulley spacers to come in so the idlers can be put in place. Using a straight edge on the crank pulley to align everything so that the belt stays in place. Then it gets mounted to the cleaned and painted cradle, the thermostat housing welded up, a MAP bracket and a throttle cable bracket fabricated the exhaust routing (around the engine setup) will need to be figured out. (will try to emulate Neils Y pipe) , the axles installed , and it should be ready to drop in. Maybe its just me, but I am finding this swap far less expensive to do than the 3800 install. A person willing to fabricate and weld his own parts could get this swap done for about $1200-$1500. The salvage market here is flooded with 4.9L engines and since many seniors drive Cadillac's many are low mileage. Its not a race engine or state-of-the-art technology but far torque superior to the 2.8L and it is about the same engine weight.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Making more progress. Got idler pulleys and tensioner in place. Since spacers must be used to position them; must say that alignment is a real issue to get right. Will have more pics later but since I have not found trans mount brackets, I have stripped the Cadillac transmission brackets from the attached rubber mount and will adapt these. Anyone tried this on the auto swap?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Was able to get the tensioner mounted and made a bracket from part of the old water pump housing. Welded in a piece of 1/4 square steel stock for strength, filled the cavity with JB weld (for looks) and painted it. Seems sturdy and I expect that it will hold. Used a 79.5" serpentine belt. Added a new A/C compressor, an additional brace on the 87 Grand Am alternator (smaller C130 for hood clearance and 105 amp output which should be good}, and carefully spaced the idler pulley above the A/C compressor using aluminum spacers cut on my lathe. . Belt alignment was a chore and a straight edge was used on the crank as a reference point. So here we are as of today: [img] [img/]
[img] [img/]
Tomorrow the fuel rail goes on, spark plugs changed, the O 2 sensor and MAP sensor installed, and new MSD wires all around.
BTW, for those looking to do the automatic swap the axles needed are Cardone 60-1114 Drivers Side Cardone 60-1078 passenger side These are exact commonly available drop in axles. They cost about $140 set but they are rebuilt GM units and not the out of balance, easy to break cheap Chinese units that sell for a few dollars less. There is little information on 4.9L axles here so I thought that I would post info when available.
Undecided on the exhaust design for around the engine or straight out back through a Spintek or Magnaflow muffler. Concerned about drone but a friend just used the Magnaflow 18" crossflow and said that it's not deafening like the Flotech Afterburner on my 3800SC. May just go out back but need to locate a manifold exhaust flange. Its an odd size. More coming.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
BTW, for those looking to do the automatic swap the axles needed are Cardone 60-1114 Drivers Side Cardone 60-1078 passenger side These are exact commonly available drop in axles. They cost about $140 set but they are rebuilt GM units and not the out of balance, easy to break cheap Chinese units that sell for a few dollars less. There is little information on 4.9L axles here so I thought that I would post info when available.
Good info, but it might be more accurate to say those are for anything using the 4T60 trans... That would be useful for someone swapping that trans to their 2.8 or with their 3.4, for example.
Good info, but it might be more accurate to say those are for anything using the 4T60 trans... That would be useful for someone swapping that trans to their 2.8 or with their 3.4, for example.
I believe that the 4T60 uses different axles than the 4T60e. I am starting to post more info here on the 4.9L swap than has been posted in the past. Hopefully this can help other planned swaps.The 4.9L is an old engine but the availability is still plentiful. Its an inexpensive swap , a bit easier to do than a 3800, and the performance is way better than the 2.8L.. We also hear reports of 30 hwy MPG so its worth a try.
Got the fuel rails on yesterday, relocated the MAP sensor, mounted the EGR solenoid, new plugs, 8.5mm silicone 50 ohm /ft ignition wires. Now figuring out connections to all vacuum ports and when that is done it will be time to mount the engine on the cradle and attach the harness. Just found out that the air bonnet coupling will fit over a 3 1/2" air pipe and we can attach some 3 1/2" Spectre air hose there. The only problem is that the Fiero air filter box has a 3" flange on it and no one makes a 3 1/2" to 3" coupler. Might have to do some welding there. Beyond that we found a surplus 4T60 trans bracket for the rear mount and will try to adapt the Cadillac front bracket to the Fiero mount. If you detach the Cadillac front bracket from the mount it looks very similar to the 4T60 bracket. A little massaging might do it. Then we will add the front engine mount and be ready for the harness. Here are the updates. Finally coming together after two years
and the work continues.......
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I'm just dealing with a problem with my 4.9L swap...sounds like I damaged the forward rocker arm rail. I am considering replacing the aluminum rocker arm rails with the Allante steel rails. The downside is that my engine is in the car and removing the forward valve cover is tough. I've been told that I may be able to just remove the rear cradle bolts and jack up the rear end to get the clearance I need (still have to disconnect a number of items), but it will still be a big hassle...
Have you considered switching to the Allante steel rails? Since your engine is still out of the car this would be the perfect time.
I'm just dealing with a problem with my 4.9L swap...sounds like I damaged the forward rocker arm rail. I am considering replacing the aluminum rocker arm rails with the Allante steel rails. The downside is that my engine is in the car and removing the forward valve cover is tough. I've been told that I may be able to just remove the rear cradle bolts and jack up the rear end to get the clearance I need (still have to disconnect a number of items), but it will still be a big hassle...
Have you considered switching to the Allante steel rails? Since your engine is still out of the car this would be the perfect time.
My engine is stock and relatively low miles. Don't think its best to fool with the valve train geometry and wear pattern unless I have to. I found the salvage yard bill and the engine actually has 78K miles not 68K as reported earlier. IMO that's still pretty reasonable mileage But the engine is still old!. I've never tried tipping the cradle to gain clearance but if you lower it an inch or two, very carefully you may be ok. A Fiero mechanic from a while back told me that he always gained clearance to work on the front of the engine this way. I would guess that its an acceptable way of doing things but you just got to be careful not to break a hose fuel line or part of the wiring harness. I would lower the rear cradle gradually and just keep an eye on things.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
My engine is stock and relatively low miles. Don't think its best to fool with the valve train geometry and wear pattern unless I have to. I found the salvage yard bill and the engine actually has 78K miles not 68K as reported earlier. IMO that's still pretty reasonable mileage But the engine is still old!. I've never tried tipping the cradle to gain clearance but if you lower it an inch or two, very carefully you may be ok. A Fiero mechanic from a while back told me that he always gained clearance to work on the front of the engine this way. I would guess that its an acceptable way of doing things but you just got to be careful not to break a hose fuel line or part of the wiring harness. I would lower the rear cradle gradually and just keep an eye on things.
My engine only has about 50K miles on it....
It was Fieroguru who told me to lower it that way, so I trust the source. I just wish I'd changed the rails while the engine was out. My understanding is that the rails are identical, just made from steel so there shouldn't be any impact on geometry.
...by the way....your engine looks great!
[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 08-06-2014).]
It was Fieroguru who told me to lower it that way, so I trust the source. I just wish I'd changed the rails while the engine was out. My understanding is that the rails are identical, just made from steel so there shouldn't be any impact on geometry.
...by the way....your engine looks great!
Interesting that you would need a new rocker arm rail/support at 50K but those 4.5L rails are rare and expensive when you can find them. If they came my way at an affordable price I might put them in but I have seen 4.9L engines with close to 200K miles on them with the original aluminum rails. My thinking is that if ain't broke don't fix it .Maybe I am off the mark or maybe not. Time will tell. I think the engine looks OK and thanks for the compliment but I will feel a whole lot better when its installed and running. I work on it part time so its a rather slow process. The objective is to have it in by Sept/Oct.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
