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1988 cradle vs the others - kinda confused by hcforde
Started on: 06-03-2014 09:40 AM
Replies: 18 (2047 views)
Last post by: hcforde on 06-12-2014 09:44 AM
hcforde
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Report this Post06-03-2014 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a spare V6 engine and cradle from 1987. Can I put it in a 1988 rolling chassis from what I can tell the front attachment point is .005 different; that is within a margin of error in anyone's book. The rear attachment is the same. I have read about the differences between the 1988, and all the earlier cradles. What else needs to be taken into consideration that I may be missing?

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Rodrv6
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Report this Post06-03-2014 10:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rodrv6Click Here to Email Rodrv6Send a Private Message to Rodrv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The upper strut mounts, which are part of the chassis, are in different locations on the 88. The suspension geometry will not be anywhere near correct because of this. There are adapters available for putting an 88 cradle into an 87 or earlier chassis, but I don't know of any parts available to go the direction you are trying to go........

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hcforde
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Report this Post06-03-2014 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rodrv6:

The upper strut mounts, which are part of the chassis, are in different locations on the 88. The suspension geometry will not be anywhere near correct because of this. There are adapters available for putting an 88 cradle into an 87 or earlier chassis, but I don't know of any parts available to go the direction you are trying to go........



Thanks, I was looking only at the dimensions on a diagram.

I am considering getting a 1988 rolling chassis that can come with a 3800 and the cradle or, without the engine or the cradle. The engine is a hot mess of wires though. I am too much of a noob to want to deal with that much electrical wiring .

I also see you have a R6. My father-in law built one a few years ago, and then went into partnership with a guy to build a R7. That was a bridge too far, a bad partnership. My father-in-law is very meticulous; a contractor by trade that believed in utter perfection. His partner was not of that mindset......and wanted to build a plane. The partially completed plane now sits in a hanger.
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Will
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Report this Post06-03-2014 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The '88 cradle bolts into the earlier bodies.

The only difference is the strut towers. If you bolt '88 struts into an early body, you end up with uncorrectable positive camber (~1.5 degrees or so) unless you install the strut top adapters mentioned above.
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Lou6t4gto
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Report this Post06-04-2014 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
he wants to put a 87 in an 88, not a 88 in a 87.
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Report this Post06-04-2014 07:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 87 cradle uses A-arm rear suspension.


The 88 uses a tri-link rear suspension.

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post06-05-2014 03:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou6t4gto:

he wants to put a 87 in an 88, not a 88 in a 87.


I reread it a few times and untill you said it I missread it too.

Any way,.... Yes you can, No you do not want to. It will fit as I have seen it, but if you have an 88 you want to stick with the 88 rear end/cradle.

what are you missing,.... the e-brake cables are different, the springs are different, the struts are the same, the top hat for the springs is different, the brakes calipers are different, the engine grill mounting point on the top of the strut (car side), is different. all the 'different' things would be needed for the swap to happen.


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hcforde
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Report this Post06-05-2014 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK, the way I see it, there is too much of a difference to mess with trying to do that.

My next question then is this. Do all the Fiero V6 engines have mounts in the same place. I also have a modded 1986 V6(destroked & a hotter cam) I am considering.

Anyone know of an inexpensive 1988 cradle that may be available in my general area?

[This message has been edited by hcforde (edited 06-05-2014).]

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no2pencil
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Report this Post06-05-2014 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilClick Here to Email no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is it practical to replicate the 88 setup on a subframe from previous years?
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hookdonspeed
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Report this Post06-05-2014 03:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
if you wanted that engine, phonedawgz (sp) (and others here, not sure whos still making and not making them, so please don't take offence) will make/sell you a harness that will be neat and plug right into your car, then you can use that engine and cradle, and not have to deal with the wiring.
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hcforde
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Report this Post06-05-2014 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by no2pencil:

Is it practical to replicate the 88 setup on a subframe from previous years?


When I look at the pics, there seems to be too much difference to replicate it economically unless you have the personal skills. Finding a 1988 that you just want the cradle from is hard to find also. People that have them(the 1988's) usually know the value of the parts. Whenever I find a 1988 the cradle is always gone. People also seem to be trying to sell parts and junk Fiero's at a higher price point this year than they did last year, generally much higher. Or so it seems to me. I bought 7 Fiero's last year and my total investment was under $5000 and one of them is a 1988 GT T-Top. 1 was a 1988 Coupe I stripped for parts, but I did not have enough time to take out the cradle and that was one of the main things I wanted.
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hcforde
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Report this Post06-05-2014 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hookdonspeed:

if you wanted that engine, phonedawgz (sp) (and others here, not sure whos still making and not making them, so please don't take offence) will make/sell you a harness that will be neat and plug right into your car, then you can use that engine and cradle, and not have to deal with the wiring.


This car is going to be a long term project. Basically everything is torn out and will have to be built back in. That is good and bad I guess. If I get the frame I then can have the pride of ownership without doing the grunt work of making it a chop-top. I can also put in it what I want and how I want it. Downside is that it will be a long term project. Chop-tops look like what GM should have done to the car in the beginning.

This is why I am freaked about the engine. I do NOT have the skills to sort this out!!


Maybe sometime in the future but not now at my skill level. A man has got to know his limitations!!!
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Patrick
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Report this Post06-05-2014 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hcforde:

Chop-tops look like what GM should have done to the car in the beginning.


For short people maybe.

Sure, they look nice from a distance... but I hate sitting in them.
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fieroguru
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Report this Post06-05-2014 08:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by no2pencil:

Is it practical to replicate the 88 setup on a subframe from previous years?


Not easily. I posted this info in a previous thread, but most of it applies here:

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The 84-87 and 88 cradles are significantly different and not easily interchanged with each other unless you swap in the matching suspension components for the cradle.

88 cradle:


84-87 cradle:


The mounting points between the cradle and chassis are the same between the two cradles, and the transmission mount locations are also very similar (excluding the 4 cyl/125C mono tranny mount), but that is where the similarities end.

The engine mount pad is larger and the mount sits about 1" further further forward on the 88's vs. the 87.

The suspension pockets on the cradles are in different locations as well. A while back I mocked up an 84-87 cradle on my 88 cradle fixture so the differences would be visible. The 1 tubes represent the 88 lateral links. The 84-87 front A-arm pocket is much further forward on the cradle than the 88 lateral links (makes sence because the A-arm must control fore/aft movement where as the 88 has a dedicated trailing link for that).




Here is the location of the 88 trailing link connection to the cradle:


With quite a bit of work, you could gut the side of the 84-88 cradle and build the needed suspension connections to adapt the 88 suspension to the 84-87 cradle... but it is much, much easier to just install the whole 88 cradle.
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ericjon262
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Report this Post06-06-2014 01:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Not easily. I posted this info in a previous thread, but most of it applies here:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fieroguru:

The 84-87 and 88 cradles are significantly different and not easily interchanged with each other unless you swap in the matching suspension components for the cradle.

88 cradle:


84-87 cradle:


The mounting points between the cradle and chassis are the same between the two cradles, and the transmission mount locations are also very similar (excluding the 4 cyl/125C mono tranny mount), but that is where the similarities end.

The engine mount pad is larger and the mount sits about 1" further further forward on the 88's vs. the 87.

The suspension pockets on the cradles are in different locations as well. A while back I mocked up an 84-87 cradle on my 88 cradle fixture so the differences would be visible. The 1 tubes represent the 88 lateral links. The 84-87 front A-arm pocket is much further forward on the cradle than the 88 lateral links (makes sence because the A-arm must control fore/aft movement where as the 88 has a dedicated trailing link for that).




Here is the location of the 88 trailing link connection to the cradle:


With quite a bit of work, you could gut the side of the 84-88 cradle and build the needed suspension connections to adapt the 88 suspension to the 84-87 cradle... but it is much, much easier to just install the whole 88 cradle.
[/QUOTE]

IMO, the better approach would be to design a clean sheet suspension that bolts into an 84-87, as I'm sure that in the 20 years since the fiero was built there have been advances made in suspension design.

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post06-06-2014 08:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
IMO, the better approach would be to design a clean sheet suspension that bolts into an 84-87, as I'm sure that in the 20 years since the fiero was built there have been advances made in suspension design.


Much, much more easily said than done within the physical constraints of the Fiero's rear framework. Besides, GM did a great job with the $30M '88 redesign.
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Report this Post06-06-2014 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DLCLK87GTSend a Private Message to DLCLK87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To OP; I would get that car with the motor and then look for a 88 cradle to transfer it over to. Then as mentioned before, for a couple hundred bucks you can get a plug and play harness and be good to go.
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hcforde
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Report this Post06-10-2014 07:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DLCLK87GT:

To OP; I would get that car with the motor and then look for a 88 cradle to transfer it over to. Then as mentioned before, for a couple hundred bucks you can get a plug and play harness and be good to go.


Looks like the seller has found a 88 cradle so I can now have a rolling chassis. I wish to finish the alterations(interior & exterior) without the engine and trans in the way. This way I can also sandblast & paint the whole car chassis. This may take a good year to do as I wish to modernize the interior also.
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hcforde
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Report this Post06-12-2014 09:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I got a chance to see the actual rolling chassis. When looking at it, I was surprised at how much room there is in the engine bay around the 3800SC compared to the stock 2.8 V6. I think I am beginning to understand why this engine swap is so popular.
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