Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  84' Fiero SE suddenly will not start

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


next newest topic | next oldest topic
84' Fiero SE suddenly will not start by mckaymotoworks
Started on: 05-29-2014 08:49 PM
Replies: 24 (741 views)
Last post by: mckaymotoworks on 06-13-2014 01:45 PM
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2014 08:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have replaced all sensors during my restoration. Car ran fine a few days ago, the next morning it turns over but will not crank.
I checked the battery, 12.3VDC, checked my new coil, 12.3VDC, fuel sprays, had a new IAC on hand, popped that in.

Has all new wires, plugs etc. Also replaced fuel filter a few weeks ago, again fuel is making it to injector. PO had replaced the fuel pump within the last 8 months. Fuel tank is full. I do smell the faint smell of gas when I am attempting to start it. I checked the butterfly, had some fuel but wasn't pooled up. Out of ideas in this humidity.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17011
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 290
Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2014 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Open up the distributor. Pull off the rotor. Look for a crack.

Check for spark at the end of the spark plug wires.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 05-29-2014).]

IP: Logged
bobace455
Member
Posts: 65
From: Cedar Falls, IA, USA
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2014 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Open oil fill cap and see if valves are moving - busted timing gear?
IP: Logged
84fiero123
Member
Posts: 29950
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 325
Rate this member

Report this Post05-30-2014 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm going to ask a stupid question, I am famous for those here and elsewhere.

You did replace the plug wires ONE at a time right? Please tell me you did, because when I was working nights at GM and hadn't gotten to sleep until like 6 in the morning a friend of mine called me a 8 in the morning because he had pulled all the wires at once and just put them on willy nilly and needed the firing order.

just a guess but I bet you made the same rooky mistake, just get the firing order out of the manual or from here and redo the wires.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 05-30-2014).]

IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-30-2014 10:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh yeah, learned that long ago. Has ran well for.the last few weeks since upgrades.
The other two suggestions seem highly plausible and I will check those this evening.
IP: Logged
84fiero123
Member
Posts: 29950
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 325
Rate this member

Report this Post05-30-2014 10:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks:

Oh yeah, learned that long ago. Has ran well for.the last few weeks since upgrades.
The other two suggestions seem highly plausible and I will check those this evening.


Glad to hear that you wouldn't believe how many people do that and can't understand why the car won't run.

check the plugs for fire,
check the valves for movement,
timing belt is a royal pain in the ass to replace I hope that isn't it.
but it could also be the ICM under the distributer cap, have it tested or just get a new one and plug it in, these cars are 25 years old and sh!t happens and that is one of the more common parts to go without any warning.

oh ya don't forget to put the jelly under the module when you replace it, or you may end up replacing it again very soon, heat is its enemy. a lot of guys carry a spare one just in case in their tool box just for this reason.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 05-30-2014).]

IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-30-2014 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just replaced the IAC yesterday while trying to troubleshoot this since I had one on hand. I hope it's not the gear either, I need to sell this project as I don't have time for it.
IP: Logged
84fiero123
Member
Posts: 29950
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 325
Rate this member

Report this Post05-30-2014 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks:

I just replaced the IAC yesterday while trying to troubleshoot this since I had one on hand. I hope it's not the gear either, I need to sell this project as I don't have time for it.


How did the pickup coil look when you had the cap off? was all the white coating still over the copper windings, you said it was humid that can affect that and cause what's happening, but usually that is intermittent. not a no start situation. I had to replace mine as it was running like crap the more humid it got or when ever it rained. a pain to replace as you have to pull the distributer to replace it but still a lot easier than a timing chain.

but go with the easiest things first and cheapest, and test don't just replace parts, that can get expensive and cost a crap load of money in parts that didn't need to be replaced. start where the other guys suggested and go from there. a timing chain can slip enough to cause a now fire problem, one way to check for that is loosen the hold down bolt under the distribute and turn it, slowly while someone is cranking the engine over, if it starts then you are going to have to replace the chain, or chain the timing via the distributer. but that will only be a temp fix as the chain will slip again if the plastic coating has worn off.

Steve
IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-30-2014 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had all the parts on hand since I was originally going to restore the car. I will inspect both this evening.
Just received the M19 transmission with all parts needed for manual swap, but time to let it go.
IP: Logged
Purple86GT
Member
Posts: 1592
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Mar 2012


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 62
Rate this member

Report this Post05-30-2014 10:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Purple86GTClick Here to Email Purple86GTSend a Private Message to Purple86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
2.5L has a timing gear (plastic). Not an interference engine but not that fun to fix... Lets hope that's not it.

If you see fuel in the TB.. then spark and or timing is your issue.

IP: Logged
84fiero123
Member
Posts: 29950
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 325
Rate this member

Report this Post05-30-2014 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks:

I had all the parts on hand since I was originally going to restore the car. I will inspect both this evening.
Just received the M19 transmission with all parts needed for manual swap, but time to let it go.


it is possible the new ICM is bad, do any of the local parts stores test those for you? some can some can't and there is a test procedure for it, but for the life of me I can't remember it now. maybe someone else can tell you, I got to go rebuild yet one more carburetor on some lawn equipment that has had gas sitting in it for way to long. getting to be a yearly problem as I never remember to drain the gas and run the carbs dry when I put them away for the seasons.

good luck, I hate having to find a problem, I would rather be able to see a broken part than have to test all sorts of crap to find the problem.

Steve
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-31-2014 09:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tries starting to inspect the valve movement, how much should I see?
And crap, smoke started from under dash, that's new. I'll get under there with light to inspect.
Did not see anything off hand, but the large harness that has yellow and orange wires included in it by steering column was warm.
IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2014 12:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Inspected under the dash, no visibly burnt wires. Heavy burnt electrical smell still in the cockpit.
Tried starting it again, I see the valves move though just a little, no more smoke. I am guessing some module or else burned up hence the lingering smell. What ignition component is under the dash?
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17011
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 290
Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2014 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
None under the dash. ECM in the arm rest. There is a voltage spike suppressor in the ECM that will burn up if exposed to a too high of voltage.

It's the big red thing. If it looks all burnt up then that was it.


Do you get a check engine light, key on engine off? You should
Do you hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds when you first turn the key on? You should. Note this test assumes the key has been off for at least 45 seconds. Cranking the engine and hearing the fuel pump run doesn't count.

If the answer to the above two questions is no, then you should look into the ECM or at least smell it.

If your ECM is bad I can sell you one for $45.00 shipped to US locations. - paypal me at gofast@reddevilriver.com if you are interested.

----
Are you getting a fuel spray during cranking? If so your ECM can't be totally toasted.

Is the tach raising to 200 RPM during cranking and then falling back to zero after cranking? It should. A lack of the tach raising indicates problems with the primary ignition system. What happens when the key is off means nothing btw.

----
Also the usual definitions for cranking and turning over are the same. The engine turns while the starter is engaged.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-01-2014).]

IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2014 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'll check the above tonight, but yes, the injector was spraying prior to burning smell/smoke. Have not checked since, but will this evening.
As I said though, the smoke and smell came from under the dash, though I see nothing visibly burned or wires without coating/shorts etc.

Unless the smoke traveled through the console skeleton/tunnel area, which seems feasible if the ECM did indeed commit suicide.


IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-07-2014 01:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fuel pump turns on with key, no cracks in distributor and no codes with steady "12" code as expected.
Checking ECM now.

How do I test my new coil? It's the one thing that was recently changed in the weeks before this?

[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 06-07-2014).]

IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-11-2014 01:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After testing, I determined the new coil was defective. Once replaced, the car fired right up, made the commute to work without issue.
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41397
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post06-11-2014 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One other thing on smoke smell, make sure your blower motor resistor up in the front compartment is not sitting in a mouse nest smoldering.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 06-11-2014).]

IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-11-2014 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

One other thing on smoke smell, make sure your blower motor resistor up in the front compartment is not sitting in a mouse nest smoldering.

I assume you checked fuses already too?



Yes, blower is brand new ( though it blows way less than original), I cleaned that area good with vacuum. No blown fuses.
That smoke and smell is still a mystery, picking up a small fire extinguisher until I know for sure.

IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-11-2014 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It did the same twice this evening, was able to get it started after a few light halfturns of the key. The coil did not arc when I tested it on.

Could it be the key switch or this:ignition starter switch
IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-11-2014 08:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Appears to be the key switch. I noticed if turned all the way, all the dash lights black out, if you half turn stopping short of a full turn, it cranks everytime..

[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 06-11-2014).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-13-2014 09:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After reading this informative thread and comparing symptoms, I have a feeling this will be happening one weekend soon, if not sooner.
How to install an ignition switch (Archives)
IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-13-2014 01:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Since I will before summers end swap the auto for the M19, will I again have to replace this switch as there are different part numbers for the automatic w/tilt and manual w/tilt?

I'd hate to have to do double the work.
IP: Logged
TopNotch
Member
Posts: 3537
From: Lawrenceville, GA USA
Registered: Feb 2009


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 59
Rate this member

Report this Post06-13-2014 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TopNotchClick Here to visit TopNotch's HomePageSend a Private Message to TopNotchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hotwire it for now, and replace the switch when you change the transmission.
IP: Logged
mckaymotoworks
Member
Posts: 521
From: Nashville
Registered: Jan 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-13-2014 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TopNotch:

Hotwire it for now, and replace the switch when you change the transmission.


So it will have to be swapped? I spoke with Fiero store, they just have one with tilt and one without.
How do you "hotwire" it? That makes me nervous as I already had smoke from that area if you look above.

Never did find any burnt/melted wires, but it did come from under the dash. I haven't had much feedback on my thread lately.

I did find this thread: How to install an ignition switch.

read over some others, and does sound like that's my issue. How can I test to be certain so I do not waste time chasing the wrong thing.
As I said, if you turn the key too hard, the dash, especially the check engine light, blacks out. So that would tell me some position in the process does not communicate correctly with ECM. Even though the car is still turning over but never fires.
IP: Logged

next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock