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really poor brakes on an 87 fastback by thrash911
Started on: 05-24-2014 07:03 AM
Replies: 19 (797 views)
Last post by: thrash911 on 05-29-2014 08:27 AM
thrash911
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Report this Post05-24-2014 07:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thrash911Click Here to Email thrash911Send a Private Message to thrash911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ok guys need some help, I live in the uk and own an 87 gt fastback. car is great apart from one problem. brakes. will tell you the problem, bought the car about 18 month ago from an old guy and it hadn't been used much, approx. 100 miles in 3 years. when I got the car the brake pedal was really long and the brakes were very poor, I phoned the old guy and he said just use the car and the brakes will come back and get better, he seemed genuine enough so I drove the car and sure enough after 20 miles or so the brakes were brilliant and no long pedal. great, I parked the car up in nov last year and come to use it again and the same again, long pedal poor brakes. I drive it again for 2 days and it don't get better. so I fit a master cylinder rebuild kit, flush all the brake fluid out and clean the calipers, check to make sure the pistons are pushing out ok and pushing back in using a g clamp, and re grease the sliding pins. rear calipers where cleaned, pistons pushed out in wound back in a few times to make sure they aren't sticking or seized, then the sliding pins regreased. re bleed the brakes, no air in the system, master cylinder was bench bled. car has goodridge type brake hoses not rubber ones. brakes are still the same. with the car on stands if I turn the wheels and get someone to press the brakes all the wheels will lock up and release no problem so I know the brakes are working, the problem seems to be when I start the car and drive it, it seems that with the car running that the pedal goes nearly to the floor and the brakes are poor again, its as if the brake booster is doing the opposite of what its supposed to do. any ideas before I throw more money at the car that I don't need to. or alternatively fit one of the fiero upgraded brake kits from the fiero store or fit other ,better brakes from another gm model, what do people in the good old usa fit, ive heard escalade rears, beretta fronts work.

[This message has been edited by thrash911 (edited 05-24-2014).]

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Report this Post05-24-2014 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
start here
See my Cave, Brake Service

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uhlanstan
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Report this Post05-25-2014 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for uhlanstanClick Here to Email uhlanstanSend a Private Message to uhlanstanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
THE BIGEST PROBLEM WITH FIERO BRAKES IS PEOPLE BUY CHEAP PADS,make sure you have top quality pads on the front
if any doubt replace with top quality , like wagner thermo quiets ,or Fiero store Carbomets
never rebuilt the Fiero master cylinder buy a new one , the bores do not wear evenly they cone, sorry!
read the OGRE brake site,read again take notes
jack up the rear of the car when bleeding, you can avoid bench bleed & do it on the car
fill M/C partially for the first bleed to make sure all dirty fluid is expunged
never screw the rear caliper actuator ajustment screw more than a little bit
if you have screwed the actuator screw in & out good chance the thin seal gasket is harmed
jack up all 4 wheels & make sure the wheels spin equaly,check carefully,a tight wheel is often a bad hose,,rubber hose are great,
use only FIERO STORE calipers if possible
if you have the Haynes manual, you can rebuilt your rear calipers since you are in Britain ,,use extreme care ,rebuild one at a time so you have the other caliper in case of error,, many company rebuilt calipers fail
lay all the caliper parts out on a table .preferably on a light color cloth
if your rear calipers do not leak & the pistons move, leave them alone,,flush them good,real good
back off the Ebrake in cabin & back off main Ajusters along the back frame ,spray with penetrant ,make sure every think is free
check ebrake cables if frozen at bends you can slit sheath to soak cable with penetrant then wrap with electrical tape
make sure the Ebrake cable is properly mounted to the caliper lever
do not ajust E brake untill the brake works proper Ebrake ajustment is critical make sure that each wheel is equal length
the fiero rear caliper & Fiero brake system is a pain in the buttocks to bleed
you have to pump a lot of Fluid thru the fiero system
make sure the Master cylinder fluid looks pristine, there should be no dirty fluid bleeding back in
you must have a firm solid squirt of fluid out the rear bleed valves on each rear wheel,,once you have pedal do not depress pedal all the way to the floor
your booster is not the problem,, very seldom would a booster work , then later not work then work again,but cheak it out
you can spray penetrant into a bottle & add 25% automatic transmision fluid for a better penetrant
if you do not need the Ebrake for inspection ,,buy the grand am/berreta Calipers rotors & pads this is a direct swap for the Fiero rear brakes ,you loose the Ebrake .but this one modification works a miracle in braking & is not expensive
use cheap brake pads with the berreta/grand am rear brake swap to keep braking equilibrium ,so the rear end does not overpower the front brakes
having the berreta brakes on the rear work excellent, I was surprised how great this simple swap worked

Plan on replacing your clutch slave piston ,with a dual seal piston from rodney dickman Fiero parts

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 05-25-2014).]

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thrash911
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Report this Post05-26-2014 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thrash911Click Here to Email thrash911Send a Private Message to thrash911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks for the replies, im seriously considering just buying the fiero store upgraded vented front brake conversion and using something else on the rears, its to much of a headache to fart around trying all these different methods of bleeding and adjustment. there brakes for gods sake, all the other American cars ive owned over the years have never been a problem just the usual wear and tear, even my 59 impala was better than this bloody fiero im starting to think about selling the thing and buying an old truck.any good recommendations on rear calipers, would like something bolt on, and I need to have the e brake working for uk regulations. I can have cables made to length , that's not a problem. thanks again.
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ag9123
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Report this Post05-26-2014 06:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ag9123Click Here to Email ag9123Send a Private Message to ag9123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 89-90 Pontiac Grand Am front rotors/calipers are a direct bolt-on upgrade to the Fiero rear brakes with no other modifications needed.
Make sure you position the bleeder screws in the "up\' position.
For the fronts, the Fiero Store vented kit is the way to go. Bolts right up with no modifications needed either.

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fffttt1
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Report this Post05-26-2014 09:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fffttt1Click Here to Email fffttt1Send a Private Message to fffttt1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After you get all four corners up to snuff, do the $100 vacuum assist upgrade. Best bang for the buck mod I ever installed(Grand Am fronts included).
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post05-26-2014 10:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ag9123:

The 89-90 Pontiac Grand Am front rotors/calipers are a direct bolt-on upgrade to the Fiero rear brakes with no other modifications needed.
Make sure you position the bleeder screws in the "up\' position.
For the fronts, the Fiero Store vented kit is the way to go. Bolts right up with no modifications needed either.



Yes this method will get you better braking action but with the loss of the eBrake. Some brave souls say that the eBrake is not needed but in the event of master cylinder failure or a broken line, its reassuring ( at least to me) to have a back up stopping method. I wish that we could discover a bolt on set of larger calipers that have eBrake capability. Some use the Cadillac Seville units but they are expensive and are not an easy install. That's why I stay with stock calipers and use premium professional quality ceramic pads. They stop the car well but only if IF you have done a meticulous bleeding job in sequence with a MityVac.

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thrash911
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Report this Post05-27-2014 05:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thrash911Click Here to Email thrash911Send a Private Message to thrash911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ok so fiero store fronts it looks like the way to go, rears ive read somewhere that caddy escalade rears bolt straight up, need something with an e brake because of uk regulations. I have a friend who owns a salvage yard so may look for something in there from a European car to see if anything bolts straight on. I don't mind having cables or even mounting brackets made as long as it bolts straight on. I will by something from an American car but being from the uk I don't need the hassle of buying something from the us and paying all the shipping and taxes etc to find it doesn't bolt straight on. thanks for all the replies so far you have been very helpful.
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Csjag
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Report this Post05-27-2014 07:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dennis:

What brand of ceramic pads re you using?
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thrash911
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Report this Post05-27-2014 10:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thrash911Click Here to Email thrash911Send a Private Message to thrash911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
front pads are brand new, called auto extra. got them from a uk American parts supplier. not sure of the rears as they were already fitted, original fronts had loads of life in them but don't know what make they were, I don't think its the brake material it feels more like air in the system, but its been bled on numerous occasions. its got fresh fluid all the way through it, ive used nearly a gallon of new stuff and theres definitely no air in the system and definitely no leaks on any of the calipers or brake lines. hence the reason for just fitting something else and bypassing the shitty fiero set up.
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Report this Post05-27-2014 11:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe that Fiero uses the Chevette front disc brakes, I remember looking at a used Chevy Chevette a long time ago back when they were current. The brakes stand out in my mind as being pretty awful, the pedal went almost to the floor and was mushy.
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Report this Post05-27-2014 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ag9123Click Here to Email ag9123Send a Private Message to ag9123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Make sure that the parking brakes are adjusted properly. if they are out of adjustment/locked up/inoperative, the rear pads will sit too far from the rotors.
The result is far too much pedal travel required to activate the rear brakes. This can give you a "mushy" brake pedal ( as well as the usual suspects
like air in the system, M/C seals bad, 30 year old brake line flex etc.

BTW- You need to activate the parking brake often to keep the adjusting mechanism and cables working to self-adjust the rear brakes
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1984 Indy Fiero

[This message has been edited by ag9123 (edited 05-27-2014).]

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PaulJK
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Report this Post05-28-2014 05:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PaulJKSend a Private Message to PaulJKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fffttt1:

... do the $100 vacuum assist upgrade.



If the problem comes and goes after the car has been sitting and the system has been refreshed, i'd suspect the booster too. Having done this mod a few times, i greatly recommend also using the larger master cylinder. When using the stock fiero MC, i would get resistance from the brake pedal in a panic stop. The pedal wouldn't go down for a second or so. Matching the master cylinder to the booster seems to have solved the problem.
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thrash911
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Report this Post05-28-2014 06:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thrash911Click Here to Email thrash911Send a Private Message to thrash911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ive never heard of the vaccum assist upgrade, can anyone put up a link or a website for it. when I looked on the fierostore website they recommended that the upgraded m/c shouldn't be used with standard fiero brakes. the more info I get the better, before I start using the car for the summer.
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PaulJK
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Report this Post05-28-2014 07:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PaulJKSend a Private Message to PaulJKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i think this is the one you want ("$100 brake upgrade"):

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/072173.html

Don't forget - the last step is to find a deserted area and test
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thrash911
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Report this Post05-28-2014 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thrash911Click Here to Email thrash911Send a Private Message to thrash911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
well after reading that lot im more confused. the problem I have is I cant just go down the scrappy and get an s10 booster as I live in the uk. im seriously thinking of fierostore upgraded vented brake kit, upgraded big bore master cylinder and something to fit the rears that keeps the e brake as I need it for uk regulations, ideally I would like to keep the fiero rotors and just buy a caliper with e brake set up on that will bolt straight on. and I can get e brake cables made or modified to work. ive seen that many different recommendations for bleeding the rears its unbelievable, some say adjust the e brake first some say leave the e brake and adjust after bleeding, some say back the e brake right off then bleed , then adjust back up. that's why I would rarher junk the fiero set up and get something that's less hassle. thanks again for the advice, keep it coming please.
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theogre
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Report this Post05-28-2014 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Keep reading... Some to Many "upgrades" won't pass UK/EU laws. Some are illegal here, like missing parking brakes, but "they" still use them anyway.
Examples:
Delaware Inspection doesn't look at parking brakes but DE Rules says: Parking or Emergency Brake - Must stop vehicle within a distance of 54 feet from a speed of 20 miles per hour. ( http://www.dmv.de.gov/servi...es/v_equipment.shtml )

Delaware and some others, Inspection does look at normal brakes but uses skid type dyno for inspection. This type uses 4 skid pads you drive on and stop. Screen shows results on each wheel. If Screen shows Weak/no brakes on 1 wheel/axle = inspection fails. Official DE Rules? Foot Brake - Must stop vehicle within distance of 20 feet from a speed of 20 miles per hour on dry pavement. Brakes must be adjusted to work evenly on opposite sides of vehicle. (Same page as above)

NY Inspection shops look under the car and even take off wheels looking for brake issues. Worn/Dead/Missing brake parts = inspection fails.

Can be hard to pass OE brakes because of UK brake testing method at inspection. Weak/Dead or missing brake parts can/will fail. Upgrade to booster might help that but won't help your problems now.

Have pressure after pumping MC and no leaks...
MC is bad.
Rear calipers have problem.
Maybe both at same time.
All covered in my cave.

Get good ceramic brake pads. Gives Better brakes and more fade resistance than old semi-metallic types.
Wanger thermoquiet and others.
Avoid "racing" pads. Some suck when use for normal driving.
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ranger stone
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Report this Post05-28-2014 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ranger stoneClick Here to Email ranger stoneSend a Private Message to ranger stoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The fiero store vented front brakes are excellent & you can keep the rear E brake the fiero vented front brake kit comes with every thing you need...the price is a bargain
I worked on my Lotus rebody for 2 years!!aS ADVISED, I started out with just the wagner thermo quiets on the front made a big difference
I had some one helping all the way ,it is a big benifit to have some one who knows Fiero,,Im sure there is a Fiero fanatic in your area to help you a few times...find them, ASK THEM
the best brake pads are not available for fiero,s... if short of cash install the thermo quiets or fiero store carbomets ON THE FRONT ,,THEY WORK! you can go cheap on the engine
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theogre
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Report this Post05-28-2014 08:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ranger stone:
The fiero store vented front brakes are excellent & you can keep the rear E brake the fiero vented front brake kit comes with every thing you need...the price is a bargain

TFS front "upgrade" and Big MC are just parts of GA "upgrade" with same old problems. Problems that's covered here for years.
For Years TFS was selling Big MC to anyone saying is safe and good upgrade for everyone. Only recently they final put that warning to not use it on stock brakes.

Use Search in archives.
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thrash911
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Report this Post05-29-2014 08:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thrash911Click Here to Email thrash911Send a Private Message to thrash911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
well ive got someone interested in buying the car the way it is, so im thinking of just selling it and buying the 65 c10 truck I was gonna buy last year instead. will pass all this info onto the next owner if he buys it, he knows of the fiero brake problems and he is thinking of going the same way I was, upgraded front, different rear calipers. keep all the info coming please.
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