Pennock's Fiero Forum
  General Fiero Chat
  Time for a semi-general pardon (unbanning banned members)? (Page 2)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 3 pages long:  1   2   3 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Time for a semi-general pardon (unbanning banned members)? by Cliff Pennock
Started on: 05-20-2020 08:59 AM
Replies: 93 (1618 views)
Last post by: IMSA GT on 06-01-2020 10:16 PM
Raydar
Member
Posts: 38245
From: West GA. Out in the effin' country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (11)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 451
Rate this member

Report this Post05-22-2020 06:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:
...
The contributing members who were worth a damn to the Fiero world all left on their own accord. They weren't banned. People like Madcurl, Troyboy, Infinite Will, and Bloozberry all left because they chose not to deal with the dickheads on here who DON'T get banned.



This. Exactly.

Edit - Since you asked...
(At least) two of the people who were banned were NOT banned due to "popular (or unpopular) demand" - aka "ratings", but due to some indiscretion that was invisible to the rest of us. They have mostly green bars, still visible to this day.

One was accused of "spamming in PMs". (I wonder how that works, but obviously I can't see that), and the other just got into a shouting match with the admin. THAT one seemed particularly petty, as the person in question was one of the most gentle, polite people I have ever known.

Just observations. Sorry. You did ask.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-22-2020).]

IP: Logged
Skatulaki
Member
Posts: 82
From: Green Cove Springs
Registered: Nov 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 01:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SkatulakiSend a Private Message to SkatulakiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wasn't around here long enough to witness any banning, or any banning of someone I might have had rapport with !

However my personal opinion is this: Banning to me is the same as Bullying! Who do you side with? The Bully/Banner, or the Bullied? In the USA , we have a First Amendment right to Freedom of Speech, If you have some people who can't get along to well, rather than ban them, move them into a "Romper Room" until they have agreed to settle their differences. Banning does not settle anything!

No I'm not some snowflake, I grew up the runt, and had to pop a few bullies in the mouth to earn respect!
IP: Logged
jonrev
Member
Posts: 293
From: 60030
Registered: Jan 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 02:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jonrevClick Here to visit jonrev's HomePageClick Here to Email jonrevSend a Private Message to jonrevEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Skatulaki:

If you have some people who can't get along to well, rather than ban them, move them into a "Romper Room" until they have agreed to settle their differences. Banning does not settle anything!



Tried and tested, it doesn't work.
IP: Logged
Cliff Pennock
Administrator
Posts: 10765
From: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 696
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 05:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:

With all due respect, I believe the ad revenue in T/OT has blinded you to how vile it has become


I have no idea where my ad revenue is coming from. That's not something I keep track of. Either way, ad revenue has never been a consideration in how/why/what I moderate or which section to keep or close for that matter. I simply do not believe in not allowing certain topics do be discussed. If people want to discuss politics or religion, that's perfectly fine with me. TO/T will never go way because it serves a purpose in the PFF community. I might make a few small changes so that political/religious threads can be avoided more easily by those who do not want to see them.

But again, TO/T will never go away. And not because of ad revenue since I have absolutely no clue what ad revenue is for TO/T (nor have I actually ever cared). I *am* curious now, but only because you mentioned it and because now I'm curious if there's any section that pulls in more ad revenue than others.

As for "how vile it has become", that's a broad statement for the entire TO/T section. AFAICS, most of the threads are perfectly fine. And indeed, only the political threads get very heated. But really, nobody is forcing anyone to read those threads.
IP: Logged
Cliff Pennock
Administrator
Posts: 10765
From: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 696
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 06:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
PS: I just checked and I have no idea how I can see where ad revenue is coming from. Anyone familiar with AdSense?
IP: Logged
Cliff Pennock
Administrator
Posts: 10765
From: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 696
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 06:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A lot of people don't realize they can actually disable politics and religion:



On idea I have been toying with for some time now is to disable politics and religion by default. Someone has to explicitly turn those sections on to see political and religious threads.

Also, mislabeled threads (so marking a political thread as "general") would then be cause for immediate deletion of the thread. Threads that start out as non-political/non-religious and turn political/relegious will be moved to the appropriate section.

And lastly, this:



Use it, people. I get a lot of complaints I hardly moderate anything but apparently nobody can be bothered to click that button if they see something that needs moderation. So far this year, a post was reported only 8 times. And only by the same three members (you know who you are, and thanks for making an effort!).
IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 544
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Have there never been vacations, meaning temporary bans?
How many people are banned that you've considered allowing to return?
IP: Logged
Cliff Pennock
Administrator
Posts: 10765
From: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 696
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

How many people are banned that you've considered allowing to return?


None. So far I haven't considered anyone yet.
IP: Logged
Quadfather
Member
Posts: 97
From: Oologah, Oklahoma
Registered: Sep 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 10:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for QuadfatherClick Here to Email QuadfatherSend a Private Message to QuadfatherEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Putting an expiration date on negative ratings is a good idea. Old negative ratings should not haunt someone for years.

As for T/OT, if you don’t like what’s posted there, don’t visit it. Instead of asking Cliff to moderate the content or remove the whole section, you can address the situation yourself by not reading the posts.
IP: Logged
IMSA GT
Member
Posts: 8570
From: Patterson, Ca
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 241
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As I mentioned earlier, no need to change anything. I can give you an example of how members that were banned already have new accounts on here anyway.

Right now we have a member in the O/T who has had 4 different accounts on here in the past. Each one of his accounts was banned due to poor attitude, arguing, insulting, and also he posted the same car under each account which pretty much gave him away. Currently, he rarely posts in the O/T but is still present and has a ratings bar that is doing ok.

My point is that people simply create new accounts to replace their banned accounts.

If you want to do something helpful, run a script on the server that auto-deletes accounts that have not been logged into for over a year. Then the existing rating bars will change and be accurate once those dead accounts are off the server.

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 05-23-2020).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 544
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 11:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Quadfather:

As for T/OT, if you don’t like what’s posted there, don’t visit it. Instead of asking Cliff to moderate the content or remove the whole section, you can address the situation yourself by not reading the posts.


Dead horse alert: I understand it's staying and it doesn't impact me since I really don't follow that forum as yet. And realizing you prob weren't speaking to me, but this spring some of the O/T came into one of the other forums where a couple of people were at least trashing one another for their exact positions in there. It's uncommon, but was this year. I suspect there are members in there who never post in the rest of the forums. I'm not a moderator and exercised the option to just overlook it on the regular forum, just as I don't engage in the topics in the O/T forum.

I'm opinionated and not politically correct so this is from experience: everybody surely knows that when people see who believes what it definitely will alter how people will interact with them on other forums. It may be a positive outcome depending on beliefs, but typically people remember those they disagree with first. So it's not a zero sum. Many of the topic headings are provocation and people look at the originator, so just understand you might be limiting yourself from future tech help.

But it's not a topic open for forum votes, and doesn't alter my view of the technical forums either way. Seeing Rodney and the other guy going at each other a good while back on the regular forum pained me to watch. Nothing good was to result.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
fieroguru
Member
Posts: 11171
From: Champaign, IL
Registered: Aug 2003


Feedback score:    (45)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 255
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 11:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:
Seeing Rodney and the other guys going at each other a good while back on the regular forum pained me to watch. Nothing good was to result.


That was nothing... over the years there have been A LOT of dyno/non-dyno, 3800/V8, auto/manual, wheel spacer, kitcar/replica, SBC hating, quarter mile, etc. threads in general and tech.

There used to be a lot more very, very, very creative/talented/skilled/funded members. More often than not, those members also had strong beliefs/opinions/personalities/egos and some even had diagnosed conditions like Asperger that made them exceptional at some things and down tight terrible at others. There were disagreements just about every day to some degree and the Trash Can was a much more happening place to visit to see what went down in the last day or two.

To some degree it pushed the creativity and development of the hobby forward. There were 50+ epic builds being posted about with progress being made, new parts, methods, and what-if discussions were happening all the time. It was truly a great place to see and do some great things and converse with some exceptionally talented people. There are many reasons why we are where we are today, and why some of the highest contributing members are no longer here... but I do miss those days.
IP: Logged
Cliff Pennock
Administrator
Posts: 10765
From: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 696
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 01:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:

If you want to do something helpful, run a script on the server that auto-deletes accounts that have not been logged into for over a year. Then the existing rating bars will change and be accurate once those dead accounts are off the server.



Actually, that's something that is already implemented. It's something I have to start manually though and I haven't done that in quite some time. Will do so later today. Heads up: your ratings may change.
IP: Logged
Cliff Pennock
Administrator
Posts: 10765
From: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 696
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

but I do miss those days.


The problem is of course that back in those days, it required quite a bit of knowledge, funds and other resources to create a forum/website. Nowadays, anyone who thinks they can do better than PFF can get WordPress hosting for a few dollars per month, install free forum software and off they go. And then of course there's social media.

All this creates factions within the Fiero community. People who like/dislike PFF. People who like/dislike social media. People who dislike/like whatever it is they can think of to create their own little corner in the Fiero world.

Now say what you will about PFF. But one thing you can be sure of and that is that its owner (meeee!) is doing everything possible to keep this resource alive and up and running. My main focus is its data. I'd rather have that in a few years time only a handful of members remain but all data since its inception is still readily available, than that it has a million members but there's no data to share. Facebook might be nice 'n all, but it has no historical data. None. PFF has a crap load of gems from the past that should never be lost.

But yeah, I understand where you're coming from when you say you miss those days. Back then we were all part of something special. That unfortunately has all changed.
IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 28968
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 548
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 02:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most came, asked 1 or a few Q then little to nothing. And for no reason wanted free/cheap answers then left. Most have sold or junk their Fiero by now. Worse sold them w/ crap mod's/"upgrades" push by many here to first suckers they could find then some now tries to undo the problems.

Or some like Rodney D mainly only post to Spam PFF for a new product etc.
Then RD left because some few question he's "Fiero God" status. While he does make some good products, business policy over time and some products have problems and when confronted everyone else is a moron and "flame war" resulted.
Others like TL/BTR suck money for illegal "upgrades" then close the whole shop and use a new name again in other markets.

Some used TO/T and other post on other pages as reason to leave but is BS. Many of those got in fame wars then whine blaming others.
Like Years ago some fool can't read MSDS claiming X product had Y chem. It didn't and got called and whined everyone here including me that PFF is full of morons and then "took his ball and went home" kind of fit.

Tony Kania, Jazzman and others where ok to good in other pages and went "nuts" in TO/T at the end. Jazzman even threaten CP w/ © lawsuits etc before was banned. Is Why Jazzman tried to edit every page before final ban.

TK likely Was Not "speed banned" because Even the Small Arrow was not even close to the end of red.

Un-banning won't matter to most Trolls because many Trolls moved to get a better audience.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave

IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 28968
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 548
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Skatulaki:
I wasn't around here long enough to witness any banning, or any banning of someone I might have had rapport with !

However my personal opinion is this: Banning to me is the same as Bullying! Who do you side with? The Bully/Banner, or the Bullied? In the USA , we have a First Amendment right to Freedom of Speech, If you have some people who can't get along to well, rather than ban them, move them into a "Romper Room" until they have agreed to settle their differences. Banning does not settle anything!

No I'm not some snowflake, I grew up the runt, and had to pop a few bullies in the mouth to earn respect!
Funny, in the sad way, that You Claim you're Not a "snowflake" but still have No Clue 1st A Does Not apply to Private Property.
Is Why YT, FB, Patreon and most others have ToS etc that basically saying Can Ban Anyone for Any Reason and been doing so since all where started.
Is Not just Online either. Go to a local Store or Mall and try same thing... Most can and will kick you out at minimum or have you arrested for anything they don't like you saying, wearing, etc. Dare you go to a mall or store wearing Buy Nothing Day on Black Friday or any other day. I know many malls will call cops to arrest you. All say No Soliciting because they Don't want JW, Mormons, and other groups pushing pamphlets etc on their property.
If you think SCOTUS protects your 1st A on Private Property... Wrong.
More, PFF is in NL and EU and their laws don't give a crap on US "Rights."

YT and many more bans more and more people every day w/o reason to anyone. A big reason Why Joe Rogan is moving off of YT and icrap.
Even Twitch is now so Woke has new fake "Trust & Safety Council" crap.
IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 29702
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 439
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Jazzman and others where ok to good in other pages and went "nuts" in TO/T at the end. Jazzman even threaten CP w/ © lawsuits etc before was banned. Is Why Jazzman tried to edit every page before final ban.


Ogre, I suspect I've spent a lot more time in O/T than you over the years... and I've got to speak up in defense of JazzMan. I don't agree with everything JazzMan did at the end of his stay at PFF, but you've got to understand that the poor guy was endlessly harassed by the same political "clique" for years here. JazzMan had a vast knowledge of everything Fiero, which he was pleased to share, but certain individuals rode his ass continually simply because his political views were different than theirs. Over and over and over again, the Posting Rules, as set forth by Cliff Pennock, would be broken. JazzMan (and many of the rest of us) couldn't understand why these rules wouldn't be enforced (specifically the ones regarding being "civilized"). JazzMan eventually snapped (and yes, he was obviously upset with Cliff's inaction), the perpetrators of his misery were no doubt elated, and the rest is history. PFF lost a valuable member, and the Fiero community was the lesser for it. Similar patterns have repeated over the years with other valuable members. It's so frustrating to witness.

Just to be clear, I'm ever so appreciative with what Cliff Pennock has created here... but as with anything and everything else, improvements can be made. Transgressors simply (or maybe not so simply) need to be held accountable when the posted rules here are broken, especially when it's being done repeatedly.
IP: Logged
IMSA GT
Member
Posts: 8570
From: Patterson, Ca
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 241
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

JazzMan eventually snapped (and yes, he was obviously upset with Cliff's inaction), the perpetrators of his misery were no doubt elated, and the rest is history.

.


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Nick request Cliff ban him? I didn't think he was banned by the members on here but directly by Cliff at his request.

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 05-23-2020).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 544
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

...Over and over and over again, the Posting Rules, as set forth by Cliff Pennock, would be broken. JazzMan (and many of the rest of us) couldn't understand why these rules wouldn't be enforced (specifically the ones regarding being "civilized"). JazzMan eventually snapped (and yes, he was obviously upset with Cliff's inaction), the perpetrators of his misery were no doubt elated, and the rest is history. PFF lost a valuable member, and the Fiero community was the lesser for it. Similar patterns have repeated over the years with other valuable members. It's so frustrating to witness.

Just to be clear, I'm ever so appreciative with what Cliff Pennock has created here... but as with anything and everything else, improvements can be made. Transgressors simply (or maybe not so simply) need to be held accountable when the posted rules here are broken, especially when it's being done repeatedly.


That's well said. Forums tend to get a few members who group up just to pile on someone, and they don't care to destroy greater harmony to achieve a goal. A good couple of moderators with proper temperament can squelch that without showing favoritism.
IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 29702
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 439
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Nick request Cliff ban him? I didn't think he was banned by the members on here but directly by Cliff at his request.


Yes, you're correct. Digging back into forum history, the reason that Nick (fierofetish) wanted to be banned was that he admitted to be lacking the willpower to stay away from the forum. And why would Nick wish to stay away? Because he was so frustrated and disgusted with seeing the forum's rules (regarding civilized behavior) being broken time and time again and nothing being done about it. Unfortunately, we've lost a lot of good members due to this issue.

IP: Logged
Dennis LaGrua
Member
Posts: 13313
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 320
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe that any member can get caught up in the rating system and be banned. There were certainly members here that because of their hostility were banned while some of these guys were just obnoxious and annoying. We need to separate disagreement and flaming. I have no problem seeing banned members return as long as they act like civilized people but those that were banned because they used this forum to rip people off or steal, no way. So how do we invite these guys back and insure that they do not revert to bad habits? I would say that the guys that know the banned members should chime in and recommend their return.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Cliff Pennock
Administrator
Posts: 10765
From: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 696
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can't remember exactly why all these people were banned. I do know I have never, ever banned someone because I got butt-hurt by someone. I could not care less if people hate my guts or think I am the worst moderator to ever roam the interwebs. That's simply not how I work. Anyone who knows me personally can attest to that fact.

That said, there is however a lot going on behind the scenes. Stuff that that never meets the public eye of the forum but which most certainly is a factor in the banning of people. There's a lot I do not disclose, simply because I don't think it's in the interest of anyone, and it would simply be enough to remove the person in question from the forum. That's why some people will never return. Even though people might not even understand the reason why they were banned in the first place.

There isn't a single person that has been banned that I hold a grudge against - with the exception of the few people that tried to destroy my business. I'm not sure if people remember, but a long time ago, some "Anti Pennock" persons found my business forum and they PM'd/emailed every single member on that forum with some BS story that all the software I wrote was stolen from them. Now of course, none of my clients believed that story but it did cost me a lot of goodwill with my clients. That actually hurt my business quite a bit. I mean, if that's what they were after, they succeeded. I thought of shutting down PFF at that moment because I was seriously questioning if it was all worth it.

But here we are. 21 years after I started PFF. Not only is PFF one of the oldest car forums around, it's one of the most active to boot. So I guess I'm not doing everything wrong.
IP: Logged
steve308
Member
Posts: 3426
From: Stafford VA
Registered: Jan 2008


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 50
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 05:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for steve308Send a Private Message to steve308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would bet that those who have been banned still visit the forum as guest or have signed up under a different name (and behaved). Those wishing to return should contact Cliff directly and request to be reinstated. No need to reach out to them. If they want back into the group, let them ask.
IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 28968
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 548
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Ogre, I suspect I've spent a lot more time in O/T than you over the years... and I've got to speak up in defense of JazzMan. I don't agree with everything JazzMan did at the end of his stay at PFF, but you've got to understand that the poor guy was endlessly harassed by the same political "clique" for years here. JazzMan had a vast knowledge of everything Fiero, which he was pleased to share, but certain individuals rode his ass continually simply because his political views were different than theirs. Over and over and over again, the Posting Rules, as set forth by Cliff Pennock, would be broken. JazzMan (and many of the rest of us) couldn't understand why these rules wouldn't be enforced (specifically the ones regarding being "civilized"). JazzMan eventually snapped (and yes, he was obviously upset with Cliff's inaction), the perpetrators of his misery were no doubt elated, and the rest is history. PFF lost a valuable member, and the Fiero community was the lesser for it. Similar patterns have repeated over the years with other valuable members. It's so frustrating to witness.

Just to be clear, I'm ever so appreciative with what Cliff Pennock has created here... but as with anything and everything else, improvements can be made. Transgressors simply (or maybe not so simply) need to be held accountable when the posted rules here are broken, especially when it's being done repeatedly.
I just barely skimmed over Jazzman's problems. I liked him and I'm not going to discuss more details here now.
So Yes, some push he's buttons almost to death and goes well beyond political views.
Many have tried to push buttons for others but many of the "victims" simply don't give a F what people say or think.

One big problem was CP refused to have "ToS" type posting rules in "the good old days" made problems. Adding/Changing Rules after for whatever reason and doesn't enforce (real or imaged) made other problems. Now PFF is just another Censored Arm of Google to get Adwords money that wants everything to be PC, Woke and Worse is just trying not to get ban itself again allowing some TO/T threads for "hate speech," "anti-china," etc.
IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 28968
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 548
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

theogre

28968 posts
Member since Mar 99
 
quote
Originally posted by steve308:
I would bet that those who have been banned still visit the forum as guest or have signed up under a different name (and behaved). Those wishing to return should contact Cliff directly and request to be reinstated. No need to reach out to them. If they want back into the group, let them ask.
With the current easy of using VPN TOR etc... Is likely some have gotten around PFF bans.

Many others just don't give a F for different reasons Like Many had a Fiero but not now. Other are just Trolls that want bigger audience that FT FB YT and more provides.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 05-23-2020).]

IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 29702
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 439
Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 09:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

I just barely skimmed over Jazzman's problems. I liked him and I'm not going to discuss more details here now.
So Yes, some push he's buttons almost to death and goes well beyond political views.



Yes, there was more to the story that only long-term members might be aware of... but I agree, there's no point rehashing those details here. However, knowing what we know, it wasn't a total surprise that JazzMan finally snapped from the harassment. Some people are just cruel.
IP: Logged
85fieroguy
Member
Posts: 263
From: Chicago
Registered: Aug 2015


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85fieroguySend a Private Message to 85fieroguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Put some guys on probation, and if they screw up..permanent ban. As for some " notorious" guys..keep them off the site. Once and arse, always an arse.
IP: Logged
85fieroguy
Member
Posts: 263
From: Chicago
Registered: Aug 2015


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-23-2020 10:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85fieroguySend a Private Message to 85fieroguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

85fieroguy

263 posts
Member since Aug 2015
Put some guys on probation, and if they screw up..permanent ban. As for some " notorious" guys..keep them off the site. Once and arse, always an arse.
IP: Logged
Fats
Member
Posts: 4922
From: Wheaton, Mo.
Registered: Jan 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FatsClick Here to Email FatsSend a Private Message to FatsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

... You have got to be kidding.

Some members have been banned for good reason, and should never be allowed to return.

On the other hand, someone like JazzMan was picked on relentlessly by the usual suspects (of that era) until he just snapped and went kind of bonkers... which included him deleting a lot of his very helpful tech posts.



Whoa there buddy. Keep your politically biased views out of this. Jazz was a douche for a long time prior to getting kicked.
IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 29702
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 439
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 01:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fats:

Whoa there buddy. Keep your politically biased views out of this.


Have you bumped your head?


 
quote
Originally posted by Fats:

Jazz was a douche for a long time prior to getting kicked.


Thank-you for your fine contribution to this thread.
IP: Logged
CowsPatoot
Member
Posts: 2788
From: nomadic
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score:    (29)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 02:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CowsPatootClick Here to visit CowsPatoot's HomePageSend a Private Message to CowsPatootEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A couple thoughts from an old member that doesn't come here very often these days....sorry if I go a little off-topic.

 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:
If you want to do something helpful, run a script on the server that auto-deletes accounts that have not been logged into for over a year. Then the existing rating bars will change and be accurate once those dead accounts are off the server.


This concerns me. I probably haven't gone a year without logging in, but only because my computer automatically logs me in when I stop by to search for something. It has likely been several years since I have posted anything...but access to the PMs are important to get in touch with a few people that aren't on social media. My username is important to me....it is the only username I have used on the internet for over 20 years. If I lose it, I will not sign back up under another name.

On the surface, if my account is deleted, I can just sign back up, right? Not so easy. Cliff has never allowed people to sign up with a free email account (like gmail or hotmail). I understand why (eliminate bots and trolls)...but it does cause problems for people. Not everyone has access to a non-free email....especially the less technical people that couldn't set one up if they DID have access. The real issue is that this information isn't mentioned anywhere in the registration....and if you try to sign up with one of the free accounts, you just don't get the registration email. That leaves people without any idea why they can't register...and they assume you simply don't allow new registrations. I know this is happening....I have explained this issue to three people in the last two weeks that have told me they can't get registered. I don't have a solution to offer that wouldn't defeat the purpose of it...but mentioning it in the registration or alerting them when they try to use one would help.

At the end of the day, social media is killing the forum format. The issue isn't unique to PFF. I appreciate the fact that you are trying to keep it alive....it would be devastating to the Fiero community if we lost this resource.

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Cliff Pennock
Administrator
Posts: 10765
From: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 696
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 03:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:

Cliff has never allowed people to sign up with a free email account (like gmail or hotmail). I understand why (eliminate bots and trolls)...but it does cause problems for people. Not everyone has access to a non-free email....especially the less technical people that couldn't set one up if they DID have access. The real issue is that this information isn't mentioned anywhere in the registration....and if you try to sign up with one of the free accounts, you just don't get the registration email.


Actually, that isn't true - at all.

The requirement for "real" email addresses was dropped over ten years ago or so. And back then you were warned before and during registration that free, disposable email addresses were not accepted. In fact, registration would fail with a big ol' in your face error message if you tried.

You can register with any email address you like. Outlook, Hotmail, Gmail, Live, whatever. And they don't fail silently. And that has been possible for over 10 years or so.
IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 28968
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 548
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:
If you want to do something helpful, run a script on the server that auto-deletes accounts that have not been logged into for over a year. Then the existing rating bars will change and be accurate once those dead accounts are off the server.
that won't happen because may affect ads etc for reducing user count plus other problems.

IE "Registered Members: 29833" as of this post with see a huge drop.

You Never see numbers drop from churn @ FB et al for same reason.
Even "dead" AOL etc never show a drop in number from people left or ban by them. Back then AOL and other "dial-up" services would ban anyone for any reason too.

There are still people that may only actually login every few years and loosing accounts will piss off them.
Plus Deletion can cause "Fraud Cases" because other people can "steal" old names intentionally or not. Either way cause problems for searching PFF etc.

And again Total Red vs Green bar Does Not mater.
Only the small arrow matter to "speed ban" system and that arrow moves or even auto reset as you get current pos/neg "points" or none over days to weeks. Most people haven't seen their arrows move off "Zero" for Months even Years. That even for many w/ very big red or green bars.
So if 1 rates neg and another green in same time to few days then arrow will go red then "zero" then green then "Zero" again as timer on each point runs.
IP: Logged
IMSA GT
Member
Posts: 8570
From: Patterson, Ca
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 241
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:

A couple thoughts from an old member that doesn't come here very often these days....sorry if I go a little off-topic.


This concerns me. I probably haven't gone a year without logging in, but only because my computer automatically logs me in when I stop by to search for something. It has likely been several years since I have posted anything...but access to the PMs are important to get in touch with a few people that aren't on social media. My username is important to me....it is the only username I have used on the internet for over 20 years. If I lose it, I will not sign back up under another name.




This is Cliff's reply to me so he's already been doing this, just manually so it look's like you're safe
 
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
Actually, that's something that is already implemented. It's something I have to start manually though and I haven't done that in quite some time. Will do so later today. Heads up: your ratings may change.

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 05-24-2020).]

IP: Logged
IMSA GT
Member
Posts: 8570
From: Patterson, Ca
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 241
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 12:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
......that won't happen because may affect ads etc for reducing user count plus other problems.

 
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
Actually, that's something that is already implemented. It's something I have to start manually though and I haven't done that in quite some time. Will do so later today. Heads up: your ratings may change.


IP: Logged
cvxjet
Member
Posts: 1974
From: ca, usa
Registered: May 2010


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A) I don't see how "Social media" is in any way comparable to what we get here on this forum; I belong to the Glastron and CVX-20 Facebook sites, and have posted some helpful info.....But there is no way you could find that info 6 months later.....On this site I can just scan back or do a search for "How to remove the fonk-culator" and find a thread.

B) I learned long ago that everyone has an opinion.....And they all STINK! (Including my (Gold-plated) ones). If you get into an argument just walk away- it ain't getting you anywhere to argue......Some people have really goofy ideas. I have a whole list of contradictory facts in a file named "Common knowledge is not always right"....I can post one of those (Proven) facts and get 2-3 of you guys to start flaming on me immediately.

I only knew one guy on here that I thought should be banned- He would go on any post and immediately start flaming...I just ignored him and then found out a year later he had been banned. For me, life is too short to argue with people- especially "Argue-mites"......
IP: Logged
CowsPatoot
Member
Posts: 2788
From: nomadic
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score:    (29)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 01:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CowsPatootClick Here to visit CowsPatoot's HomePageSend a Private Message to CowsPatootEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
Actually, that isn't true - at all.


I apologize for basing that off old information. It doesn't change the fact that people are having trouble registering....but obviously this isn't the reason. I don't have further information on where they may be going wrong (I didn't collect that data, because we thought we knew the answer).


 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:
This is Cliff's reply to me so he's already been doing this, just manually so it look's like you're safe


I caught that....I chose to comment on your's because you suggested doing it automatically. If Cliff chooses to delete my account, so be it....it's his web site. I just wanted to point out that an automated system would catch people that probably shouldn't be deleted.
IP: Logged
Cliff Pennock
Administrator
Posts: 10765
From: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 696
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:

I apologize for basing that off old information. It doesn't change the fact that people are having trouble registering....but obviously this isn't the reason. I don't have further information on where they may be going wrong (I didn't collect that data, because we thought we knew the answer).


I'm not sure where you get that information from but AFAICT, there are no problems with registering. I do get the occasional "I've registered but havn't received a confirmation email", but that's almost always because mail from PFF ended up in their spam box.

 
quote

I caught that....I chose to comment on your's because you suggested doing it automatically. If Cliff chooses to delete my account, so be it....it's his web site. I just wanted to point out that an automated system would catch people that probably shouldn't be deleted.


I'm not going to delete old or inactive members. I was talking about purging ratings from members that had been banned.
IP: Logged
CowsPatoot
Member
Posts: 2788
From: nomadic
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score:    (29)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 06:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CowsPatootClick Here to visit CowsPatoot's HomePageSend a Private Message to CowsPatootEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
I'm not sure where you get that information from but AFAICT, there are no problems with registering. I do get the occasional "I've registered but havn't received a confirmation email", but that's almost always because mail from PFF ended up in their spam box.


That is entirely possible. It would also explain why using a non-free email still solves the problem....a large portion of those don't have spam filters. Thanks for explaining...and again, I apologize for bringing up a problem that isn't actually a problem.

To answer the original question.....should people be un-banned....well, you can't re-activate their account because they wouldn't know they were un-banned, and likely didn't keep the login information. You CAN, however, delete the banned accounts which would allow the username and/or email address to be used again...and I would support that. As far as ratings....I agree that many are rated negatively based on things said in TOT. Perhaps just remove the rating feature in TOT? I judge people based on what they say and do....not how others have rated them.
IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 29702
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 439
Rate this member

Report this Post05-24-2020 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:

Perhaps just remove the rating feature in TOT?


Not sure what that would accomplish, besides allowing total free rein to anyone who wishes to raise hell there.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-24-2020).]

IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 3 pages long:  1   2   3 
next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock