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When does a fiero stop being a fiero? by Red98422
Started on: 10-02-2018 11:10 PM
Replies: 27 (627 views)
Last post by: Red98422 on 10-28-2018 09:21 PM
Red98422
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Report this Post10-02-2018 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Red98422Send a Private Message to Red98422Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just wondering because of the amount of mods, cutting/stretching, engine swaps, body kits etc. that folks do to their cars, at what point does it stop being a Fiero? Not meant to start a flame fest. Just genuinely curious on everybody’s opinions on this.

[This message has been edited by Red98422 (edited 10-02-2018).]

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Report this Post10-02-2018 11:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The only way you can lose the "Fiero" name is to lose this:
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olejoedad
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Report this Post10-02-2018 11:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When it's crushed....
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Report this Post10-02-2018 11:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroMaster88Click Here to Email FieroMaster88Send a Private Message to FieroMaster88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah I’d say when it’s crushed, melted down and formed into something else.

------------------
88 Coupe: 2.0L Turbo 4 Cylinder, W2A, T25 Turbo, water/meth injection
84 Indy #64: Restoration Project
84 IMSA wide body SE: Restoration project
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Red98422
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Report this Post10-02-2018 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Red98422Send a Private Message to Red98422Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So as long as it was born a fiero eh? IT WILL LIVE FOREVER!!!!
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olejoedad
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Report this Post10-03-2018 08:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The heart of the Fiero is it's unique spaceframe design.

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Report this Post10-03-2018 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In my opinion, first and foremost, if you strip the Fiero of its visual appearance, then you took away most of the personality of the car. What do most people know the Fiero from? That unusual little plastic mid engine sports car that Pontiac made.
Engine mods are OK. Most evey car of interest involves that. Lambo, Ferrari, and other kits may look good, but then most all of the character the car was designed to have has been striped away.

Read most of the first time Fiero owners posts on here. Someone saw a Fiero, or knew of someone who had one, and just had to have one of their own. The Pontiac Fiero….neet little sports car right out of the box, wouldn't you say ?
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Report this Post10-03-2018 09:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In my opinion, first and foremost, if you strip the Fiero of its visual appearance, then you took away most of the personality of the car. What do most people know the Fiero from? That unusual little plastic mid engine sports car that Pontiac made.
Engine mods are OK. Most evey car of interest involves that. Lambo, Ferrari, and other kits may look good, but then most all of the character the car was designed to have has been striped away.

Read most of the first time Fiero owners posts on here. Someone saw a Fiero, or knew of someone who had one, and just had to have one of their own. The Pontiac Fiero….neet little sports car right out of the box, wouldn't you say ?
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Red98422
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Report this Post10-03-2018 09:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Red98422Send a Private Message to Red98422Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What happens when someone puts and engine in the front though? I would be pretty hard pressed to call that a fiero
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fierofrenzy
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Report this Post10-03-2018 09:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I doubt that ever happened RED. And if anybody ever did go thru the trouble to do something like that, I think they should be put away, if you know what I mean : )

I think there may have been 1 or 2 drag cars back in the day that were converted to front engine racers, but I pay little attention to something that completely ruins the original design of our beloved little car.
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Red98422
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Report this Post10-03-2018 09:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Red98422Send a Private Message to Red98422Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You are probably correct in that. From what I understand only one that Ive read about was actually built on an original Fiero, while the others were tube chassis “clones” (not a fact just things I read on the inter webs).

I personally think that a lot of kit style cars usually get referred to as the original car in a derogatory sense. For instance you take a very well done Lamborghini kit, the nay sayers would likely refer to it as “oh....it’s just a fiero”. I do however believe they aren’t a fiero anymore but fall into the “customs” category
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Report this Post10-03-2018 09:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Like genuine imitation leather the well done Lamboghini kit would be genuine imitation Lamborghini. or "Lamborghini-like", styling.

Underneath it would still be a Fiero. It wouldn't be a Lamborghini. The title would still be a GM VIN from a Fiero in most cases. If not, it still wouldn't be a Lamborghini. It wouldn't be a replicar either if it isn't true to Lamborghini design throughout.
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Report this Post10-03-2018 10:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Opinions differ.

One thing to note

A Fiero based lambo or Ferrari, or other...would be easier to maintain and more reliable than a real one

At shows most of the Lambo Fieros (for example) are in a class called rebody.
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Red98422
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Report this Post10-03-2018 10:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Red98422Send a Private Message to Red98422Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

A Fiero based lambo or Ferrari, or other...would be easier to maintain and more reliable than a real one


Of this I have no doubt!!!!
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Report this Post10-03-2018 06:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88FingersClick Here to Email 88FingersSend a Private Message to 88FingersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree witcha! Fairly new to posting but a follower of the forum since 2005. Here I am with my '88 GT in the garage that I bought new and believe it or not still have the original washer fluid in the tank!
Don't get to drive it much (never did) but love the hell out of it, and the very idea of it. The '88 GT just did it for me and still does.
Now, because I have a bucket list I have gone and gotten another one. Fairly decent shape too for around $6K Canadian.
Plan to run the 1600Km Targa Newfoundland race in a few years in what else? You guessed it, performance enhanced of course thanks to the advice of many great builders on the forum but still looking like the '88 Fiero GT. Nothing against the major body modifiers but just love the original so much for its uniqueness and cool factor.
Long Live all Fieros and their owners!!
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Report this Post10-04-2018 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KMFDMFANClick Here to Email KMFDMFANSend a Private Message to KMFDMFANEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ah, yes. The old philosophical thought experiment known as the "Ship of Theseus" (maybe Fiero of Theseus? Car of Theseus in this case?)

In short it is all about identity. I'm para-phrasing the Wiki article here...

Suppose that the famous Fiero driven by the hero Theseus in a great race has been kept garaged as a museum piece. As the years go by some of the car parts begin to rot and are replaced by new ones. After a century or so, all of the car parts have been replaced. Is the "restored" Fiero still the same object as the original?

Second, suppose that each of the removed pieces were stored in a warehouse, and after the century, technology develops a cure to their rotting (rusting) and enable them to be put back together to make a (another) Fiero. Is this "reconstructed" Fiero the original car? And if so, is the restored Fiero in the garage still the original Fiero too?

It scrambles the mind...

[This message has been edited by KMFDMFAN (edited 10-04-2018).]

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Report this Post10-04-2018 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KMFDMFAN:


...As the years go by some of the car parts begin to rot and are replaced by new ones. After a century or so, all of the car parts have been replaced. Is the "restored" Fiero still the same object as the original?




Also can they still win highest miles on the car at a Fiero show?
Because the odometer shows 350k on it, even though everything has been replaced...

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Report this Post10-04-2018 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KMFDMFAN:

Ah, yes. The old philosophical thought experiment known as the "Ship of Theseus" (maybe Fiero of Theseus? Car of Theseus in this case?)

In short it is all about identity. I'm para-phrasing the Wiki article here...

Suppose that the famous Fiero driven by the hero Theseus in a great race has been kept garaged as a museum piece. As the years go by some of the car parts begin to rot and are replaced by new ones. After a century or so, all of the car parts have been replaced. Is the "restored" Fiero still the same object as the original?

Second, suppose that each of the removed pieces were stored in a warehouse, and after the century, technology develops a cure to their rotting (rusting) and enable them to be put back together to make a (another) Fiero. Is this "reconstructed" Fiero the original car? And if so, is the restored Fiero in the garage still the original Fiero too?

It scrambles the mind...



The human body is some 70% water.

As you urinate and sweat, you lose your body to the environment. You think replenish "your" body by drinking water again... but you're not constituted of the same atoms as the day before.

The same goes for your tissues, your skin which wears away, and is replaced by materials found in the food you eat.

I found this... was interesting:
https://www.reddit.com/r/as...human_body_replaced/

For humans, we don't change names once a certain percentage of our atoms have been replaced.
After we undergo body modifications, such as surgeries, tattoos, piercings, our identities do not change.

If a person loses an arm in an accident, but a doctor reattaches it to the body, the patched-up human retains the same name.

I would propose that a Fiero remains a Fiero, as long as it follows the "Fiero" template. Once most (vague, I know) of the spaceframe (the core of the Fiero) no longer looks like that of a Fiero spaceframe, that is where I would say the Fiero ceases to be a Fiero.

Putting a front-engine and tubing the rear end is not sufficient to lose the Fiero identity. R Runner's yellow car is not a Fiero. The line lies somewhere between these two examples.

However, we can consider the matter more simply if we consider the identity of the car to be attached to the VIN.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 10-04-2018).]

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Neils88
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Report this Post10-27-2018 01:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My Aventador's Fiero content is less than 50% of a Fiero spaceframe, the seat frames, the steering rack, the gas tank and most importantly the VIN. Everything else has been replaced. It also has more than $15k of OEM Lamborghini parts on it so far. But even though the real Lamborghini content far exceeds the real Fiero content I have no illusions that this is a Lamborghini.... but I long stopped calling it a Fiero...
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Report this Post10-27-2018 05:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88Fingers:

I agree witcha! Fairly new to posting but a follower of the forum since 2005. Here I am with my '88 GT in the garage that I bought new and believe it or not still have the original washer fluid in the tank!
Don't get to drive it much (never did) but love the hell out of it, and the very idea of it. The '88 GT just did it for me and still does.
Now, because I have a bucket list I have gone and gotten another one. Fairly decent shape too for around $6K Canadian.
Plan to run the 1600Km Targa Newfoundland race in a few years in what else? You guessed it, performance enhanced of course thanks to the advice of many great builders on the forum but still looking like the '88 Fiero GT. Nothing against the major body modifiers but just love the original so much for its uniqueness and cool factor.
Long Live all Fieros and their owners!!


Hey Fred! Any pics? How many km? What keeps you from driving it?

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88Fingers
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Report this Post10-27-2018 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88FingersClick Here to Email 88FingersSend a Private Message to 88FingersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey David, you have got 3 beauty's there! I drove the original a fair amount when I first got it and had a job that was very short days and all weekends off. I had never intended to use it too much anyway for preservation sake but still did some back-road burning on nice summer weekends. Wanting to keep it pristine I just never took it out on rainy days and always garage stored it for winters. I know it sounds crazy but I really love this car and couldn't bring myself to modify it for the Targa so I found a decent one up in Bolton that was also never winter driven for a good price and am currently restoring and modding it for the the Targa as I don't feel the emotional attachment. Crazy eh? I work 6 days a week now usually at least 10 hours and 6 on Saturdays so not much energy to go back-road burning like 25 years ago. Targa will be my last stand for Fiero Glory I believe.LOL
Hoping to do a nice job on the latest one with FieroGuru, Rodney Dickman and Fiero Store parts and advice from these forums. So far so good but I just started and this will be a 2 year project I believe. Cam-A -Lot has already offered some help so that is great. I would post pics but there is always an issue with sizing. Thank you for asking and we should get together at some point for Fiero's sakes!....Fred W
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Report this Post10-27-2018 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88FingersClick Here to Email 88FingersSend a Private Message to 88FingersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey David again, forgot KMs. The original Red one with Gold Wheels/Tan Interior has around 60K and the latest one, White with Black Wheels/Grey Interior has around 155K so in miles for our American friends around 40K and 96K.
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Report this Post10-28-2018 02:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for F50MODClick Here to Email F50MODSend a Private Message to F50MODEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hope I can spend some time on this one to get it on the road.





[This message has been edited by F50MOD (edited 10-28-2018).]

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88Fingers
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Report this Post10-28-2018 07:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88FingersClick Here to Email 88FingersSend a Private Message to 88FingersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey F50MOD, spend the time my friend! Get 'er on the road. That is some cool work right there!
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Report this Post10-28-2018 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very cool car F50MOD! I would hit absolutely everything around here with a car that low! ha
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Red98422
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Report this Post10-28-2018 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Red98422Send a Private Message to Red98422Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
F50mod: very nice car! Truly looks like a lot of work went into that! So what are your thoughts on the subject at hand? Do you consider your car to be a fiero still?
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Report this Post10-28-2018 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for F50MODClick Here to Email F50MODSend a Private Message to F50MODEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Red98422:

F50mod: very nice car! Truly looks like a lot of work went into that! So what are your thoughts on the subject at hand? Do you consider your car to be a fiero still?


Still titled as a 1988 Fiero for now., definitely a Fiero at heart. I bought it already modified years ago from FL but here in NC the DMV will have to inspect it and the title will be change to a Replica vehicle and will be titled as the make and year of model intended to be replicated. Every state is different on the way they handle their titles. The car still has the stock V6 on a stretched chassis and the frame/chassis is an 88 Fiero GT but the rest is gone. This is not a identical match to a Ferrari F50 and it will never be a Ferrari but I do not have an extra 1.5 Million to pick one up with. I consider it an affordable tribute car for a F50 fan. First time I drove it I saw lots of arms sticking out of car windows holding cell phones pointing my way.
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Red98422
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Report this Post10-28-2018 09:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Red98422Send a Private Message to Red98422Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As each state has their own laws on registration and identification, we as enthusiasts also have our own opinions on the “soul” of the car. As the majority of posters above seem to say that a fiero is a fiero so long as the space frame is still there. Some would say that a vehicle like yours though not an F50 would be something else in and of itself. Some would also argue like you have said that it is still a fiero at heart. But not in the typical derogatory sense I have heard my own car referred to as.
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