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86 2m4 2.5L project by TheDuke
Started on: 09-02-2018 03:01 PM
Replies: 45 (552 views)
Last post by: TheDuke on 09-08-2018 09:01 AM
TheDuke
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Report this Post09-02-2018 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I bought my 11yo son his first car yesterday. 86 2m4 2.5L. He saw it in some really tall grass off the side of the road in someone's yard. As soon as I got home from work he ask if we could go look at it, which we did, and lucked out there was someone there and we did not get shot. After talking to the guy it turns out he is a fiero enthusiast, and agreed to sell it to us for $200. As I said my son is 11, and this will be his first foray into working on cars. I would like to get some input if possible on what to do to pull as much as we can out of the old duke that's in it. We may at some point do an engine swap, but he isn't ready for all that yet. So, any ideas?
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Report this Post09-03-2018 01:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JMTUTClick Here to Email JMTUTSend a Private Message to JMTUTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If the Duke runs ok, I think it's a good starter engine for a new driver as is. I know high horsepower and mods didn't go well with me at 16 for any kind of longevity.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 03:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bjm362Send a Private Message to bjm362Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just going off of vague memory... The Iron Duke was a pretty good commuter car engine. What was not liked about it was it did not like high rpms., What was liked about was it had good torque for a 2.5 L 4 cylinder engine. A quality restoration of the car with that engine set up properly for daily driving would be a very cool first car IMHO. Also your son might learn enough in the process to be able to modify it with a good swap when he is at a more appropriate age to do so.

It sounds to me like you have a great start at a potentially wonderful father and son project! Best wishes to you both!!!


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Report this Post09-03-2018 07:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow, great dad ! That's a wonderful thing you did.
I'd personally hold off on the engine swap idea. I'd start with the basics to introduce your son to automotive maintanence and repair. A complete engine tune up along with the belts to start. Depending on how long the car has been sitting in the grass, theirs also the brakes, suspension, tires, and all rubber parts to take a look at . The list goes on too !
Heres another VERY IMPORTANT factor. Cars that have been parked on the grass for long periods of time can have extensive rust issues on the frame. Check the undercarriage to see if theirs any rust issues there.
I assume you guys have a good set of tools, your gonna need them. Maybe surprise your son with a repair manual too. Their full of exploded diagrams that will better help your son understand how this unusual car is put together.
I reciently bought a ratchet wrench with a double swivel handle. This tool is excellent for getting into those tight areas. I should have bought this 10 years ago and strongly recommend one.
Whatever you do decide to do, have fun doing it together. Good luck on your project and keep us posted.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 07:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

fierofrenzy

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Wow, great dad ! That's a wonderful thing you did.
I'd personally hold off on the engine swap idea. I'd start with the basics to introduce your son to automotive maintanence and repair. A complete engine tune up along with the belts to start. Depending on how long the car has been sitting in the grass, theirs also the brakes, suspension, tires, and all rubber parts to take a look at . The list goes on too !
Heres another VERY IMPORTANT factor. Cars that have been parked on the grass for long periods of time can have extensive rust issues on the frame. Check the undercarriage to see if theirs any rust issues there.
I assume you guys have a good set of tools, your gonna need them. Maybe surprise your son with a repair manual too. Their full of exploded diagrams that will better help your son understand how this unusual car is put together.
I reciently bought a ratchet wrench with a double swivel handle. This tool is excellent for getting into those tight areas. I should have bought this 10 years ago and strongly recommend one.
Whatever you do decide to do, have fun doing it together. Good luck on your project and keep us posted.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 07:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

fierofrenzy

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Double exposure.....why's that keep happening ?
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Report this Post09-03-2018 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlfrariClick Here to visit ltlfrari's HomePageClick Here to Email ltlfrariSend a Private Message to ltlfrariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If it's been sitting in a field the first thing I'd check is how much rust there is (or not) in the trunk area (under the carpet) and under the rear wheel wells up top where you cannot see (take well liners out). The amount of rust elsewhere on the car would be a good indication of what you are likely to find. Also check front cradle mounts (brackets welded to body that the engine cradle bolts to at the bottom of the firewall.
If all that's ok and the front suspension looks ok (body not rotted around mounting point) then everything else is fixable with work (sometimes a lot of work!)
Well done on the father son project, just don't kill each other getting it done LOL
And welcome to the madness.

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Report this Post09-03-2018 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the replies, some useful ideas there. I wish I knew how to add pics, you could see how far we have to go. The guy i bought it from said it only needs a fuel pump to run, and the only rust is the headlights, but since the window is busted out the interior is getting totally replaced. The point was for him to learn to build a motor inside and out, turns out what he will learn is how to retore a whole car inside and out. I think that deserves his own set of new tools. And so mommy doesn't kill me, a set of cover alls to wear while he's working on it.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 04:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What he can borrow from " mommy" is her Palmolive dishwashing liquid. Its such a good grease cutter I use it to wash my hands all the time. Old t shirts make great rags, and you definitely want a can of PB Blaster . Its probably the best rust penetrant on the market. Your gonna encounter a lot of stuborn bolts that just don't want to come loose.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 04:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TheDuke:

I wish I knew how to add pics...


If you're running a Windows PC, use PIP to post images here. Max width - 1024 pixels. Max file size - 300 kb.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 05:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Skull_BanditClick Here to Email Skull_BanditSend a Private Message to Skull_BanditEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TheDuke:

but since the window is busted out the interior is getting totally replaced.


Ive got a set of seats you could have. Could make a road trip to Indiana. They're torn but can be recovered. Most of them are torn. They are "Speaker in the headrest" seats.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 06:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dawn and palmolive are great for washing skin, but I'm more concerned with mommy having to wash greasy clothes in her new washing machine. I grew up tuning wrenches as soon as I could hold it up almost. Mainly because although he told me never to buy one my dad kept buying dodge trucks because they were cheap. Needless to say he also was not paying for gojo wo I used alot of dawn growing up. Washing all the way up your arms always reminded me of the doctors on mash scrubbing up.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How would I do it if I'm using a phone?
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Report this Post09-03-2018 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

TheDuke

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I dont know the web address of a pic on my phone
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Report this Post09-03-2018 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey Duke... send me a txt and I'd be happy to send you a Fiero Store catalog, if you haven't got one already. Theres 131 pages of Fiero parts in there. Your kid will go nuts pagin thru that thing.
732-609-9423. Bob
ttheres 131 pages of Fiero parts in it. Your kid will go nuts pagin thru that thing.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PinecoonSend a Private Message to PinecoonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Iron dukes are pretty reliable, its what I have in my 84 and its a great starter for someone learning how to drive as its not too fast but still manages fine on the expressway. Mine was sitting for about 10 years before i got it running and the biggest problem I had was the brake lines were rotten out and in the fuel system as the gas had turned to lacquer. Ended up having to replace the gas tank, fuel pump, fuel lines fuel filter and I bought a throttle body rebuild kit.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 09:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We are going to do all that as well one so he can learn to do it, and two so we know its reliable and safe.
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Report this Post09-03-2018 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

TheDuke

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Bob I sent you a text with a pic of his car so you can probably tell it wouldn't be a bad idea anyway
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Report this Post09-03-2018 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

TheDuke

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Anyone know of any super duty parts for sale for that?
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Report this Post09-03-2018 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Guys, I just want to let you know, I have perused a few different fiero discussion sites till I found this one. This is the only one I joined, and am seriously considering letting my son join as well. Most of the groups are very combative and not a place I want my son to learn anything from. My wife read all of the comments here and agrees, I really appreciate the atmosphere here, thanks.
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Report this Post09-04-2018 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How much is involved in putting a turbo on the 2.5?
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Report this Post09-04-2018 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for da.slyboyClick Here to Email da.slyboySend a Private Message to da.slyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TheDuke:

Anyone know of any super duty parts for sale for that?


I believe there still are SD parts available in the mall, but realize that most don't fit the stock duke without modification.

How much is involved in putting a turbo on the 2.5?

This is under the same involvement as an engine swap. It can be done, but will take some work as there are no "kits" for it.

[This message has been edited by da.slyboy (edited 09-04-2018).]

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Report this Post09-04-2018 06:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey Duke, You better resend that txt message and the photo if you please. I checked my phone and never received it.
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Report this Post09-04-2018 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sent it again
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Report this Post09-04-2018 06:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

TheDuke

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What kind of modification would the super duty require, crank, pistons? More?
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Report this Post09-04-2018 06:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

TheDuke

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I already plan to replace crank, pistons, cam, port match, exhaust, maybe bore it a little over. Are these good or bad ideas?
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Report this Post09-04-2018 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TheDuke:

Are these good or bad ideas?


At your mention a few posts back of Super Duty parts, I've got to ask... is this car actually a learning tool for your 11 year old, or is it more a toy for the old man?

The reason why I ask is that the Super Duty is a relatively expensive engine option. It really has nothing in common with your existing Duke other than the fact that they've both got four cylinders.

And putting much money into a Duke, especially installing a turbo, is IMO a rather bad idea.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-04-2018).]

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Report this Post09-04-2018 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I dont see any reason it can't be both instructive and fun, as for the super duty I really dont know much about it, never heard of it till recently, but it sounded like same motor with different options from the factory. But I've found it's a good idea to gain information from those who have it so I ask questions before I decide weather to make a huge mistake, lol
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Report this Post09-04-2018 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TheDuke:

I dont see any reason it can't be both instructive and fun...


Never said it couldn't... but you're talking about spending all sorts of money on a boat anchor of a motor before even stripping it down to see what it actually requires. Maybe it just needs rings and a gasket set.

 
quote
Originally posted by TheDuke:

I already plan to replace crank, pistons, cam, port match, exhaust, maybe bore it a little over.




What is it you wish to teach your son? How to properly inspect a motor and replace what's required... or how to spend gobs of money on unnecessary new parts?
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Report this Post09-04-2018 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I guess part of it is I want him to learn how all of it works separately and together, and the other part is probably letting imagination and possibly get the better of me when we are trying to decide what we are going to make of this 5 year mission.(we are both trek fans and he's 11, hence 5 year mission) but that's why I'm asking questions to temper it with reason.
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Report this Post09-04-2018 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

TheDuke

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Also you tube makes it seem like you can just bolt those super duty parts on
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Report this Post09-04-2018 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TheDuke:

...part of it is I want him to learn how all of it works separately and together, and the other part is probably letting imagination possibly get the better of me...


Don't worry, I'm not judging you... just offering my opinion.

I have multiple Fieros, 2.5 and 2.8 powered, and have driven 3800sc and V8 powered Fieros. Rebuilding the duke would be educational for your son, and it's a fine engine for tooting around in, especially with a 5-spd... but at the end of the day you're still just messing with 90 HP, so putting more money than absolutely necessary into it is kind of a waste.

Swapping to a 3800sc or a V8 will give you a whole lot more power to play with, but obviously at much greater expense and difficulty.

IMO, the 2.8 V6 supplies decent performance with these cars. Swapping a Fiero 2.8 (or Camaro 3.4) into your Fiero would offer the best bang for your buck (as long as you don't go crazy with upgrades). It would have more than enough power for your son when he eventually gets his drivers license.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-04-2018).]

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Report this Post09-04-2018 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was reading a "recipe" someone put up on a site to get about 200hp with the 2.5 basically doing crank, bearings, pistons, rods, valves, cam, port matching, honing, exhaust, coil. Maybe I'm forgetting something I'll have to check, but I think all of those would be great to teach him while he's young and he can obsorb more info than us old dads,lol. Maybe overkill for that but I only paid $200 for the car, and to be honest I dont really want him to have more power than that till he's been driving for a while.
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Report this Post09-04-2018 10:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

TheDuke

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I thought when it's time for more power I might put a beretta gt motor in it. Anyone done that?
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Report this Post09-04-2018 11:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TheDuke:

I was reading a "recipe" someone put up on a site to get about 200hp with the 2.5...


Don't believe everything you read.
The more a Duke is tricked up, the shorter its lifespan... and sometimes by a very considerable margin!

 
quote
Originally posted by TheDuke:

I thought when it's time for more power I might put a beretta gt motor in it. Anyone done that?


For these kind of questions, the Search function here is your best bet.
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Report this Post09-06-2018 10:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fiero store parts I know of added up to about $1400
I'm going to shop around to see if those are good prices
Any other suppliers suggested?
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Report this Post09-07-2018 06:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The link at the top for fiero vendors may need updated, I have been thru it one by one and most of the links are inactive or unavailable sites.
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ltlfrari
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For parts etc:
Rock auto for common parts.
Fiero store for a lot of the less common/hard to find special parts (and the amll on here)
Rodney Dickman for some specialist parts and tools.
eBay sometimes!

As for the 4 cyl (and this is just my opinion), it's not worth spending money on to 'tune' it which is not to say don't restore it to a good running condition because it's fine as a motor, especially for a first driver car, not too powerful but good enough) and you'd still get the learning experience.
If you want more power, it's more cost effective to do an engine swap. Anything from the stock V6 to a 3800SC and beyond. You'd probably still need to go over the engine anyway so it's still a learning exercise, plus all the additional fab work to install so your kid would get to learn to weld as well! There's more than enough info on here for even a novice to do a swap (that was me at one time).

Good luck with the project.

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Dave

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Report this Post09-07-2018 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Wraith177Send a Private Message to Wraith177Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First off, congrats on 200! And I would have probably gone mental if my dad bought me a Fiero when I was 11! And what’s remaining in HP on that Duke will be more than enough to get him into trouble. While not a popular engine, they got thrown in the Fiero to call it an economy car. Once you get past the opinions of those who don’t like it(like myself), it is a stable engine that found life in many different vehicles, including the older USPS trucks. Great first engine as long as you’re not wanting to take it to 4000+ rpm. It really doesn’t like it for very long. All the power is under 3, so hopefully as a fellow parent that gives you some comfort that he won’t be redlining it all through town. I digress.
It’s a good car to learn on. And continue further. Rebuilding the duke should be pretty cheap, and the interior, you guys can have some serious fun. I hope you are teaching him proper and it’s a manual.
The best of luck to you both.

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This signature adds .5 bhp.
When in doubt, gun it.
84 2m4 —in progress to— 84 2m8sc
1984 Fiero, LS4, Procharger, F40 6speed

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TheDuke
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From: Clover, SC
Registered: Sep 2018


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Report this Post09-07-2018 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDukeClick Here to Email TheDukeSend a Private Message to TheDukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It is a 5 speed manual, I think everyone should learn to drive on a manual, just my opinion, but it helps teach how to concentrate on more than one thing at a time as a habit like being able to walk talk and chew gum at the same time, without having to think about it. Makes you a better and more alert driver. As for the engine, I'm aware that pretty much everyone on here thinks the duke is not worth it and it's a better idea to swap engines but I am not interested in doing that for several reasons. It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to pull 120hp or so out of an engine already producing 92-98. This will allow me to limit the power he is learning on and at the same time be able to teach him how everything in it works hands on as pretty much everything in it needs modified to get to 120hp. With those skills he should be able to work on just about anything else which is really more the point to me, other than just having something cool to do together. Now I may buy the 88 that was next to it for myself and that is a different story all together. I might drop a H/O 327 in that. Tell me that wouldn't scream.
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