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Perhaps irrationally phobic of the Getrag 282 by rednotdead
Started on: 07-12-2018 01:57 AM
Replies: 9 (474 views)
Last post by: Raydar on 07-28-2018 08:00 AM
rednotdead
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Report this Post07-12-2018 01:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rednotdeadClick Here to Email rednotdeadSend a Private Message to rednotdeadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, just as I'd feared, the work done on my Formula a couple years ago didn't hold up. My brother was driving it up to Oregon to help me move and it failed on him right as he made it into Portland city limits. It's been in the shop for a while now as we sort out what to do with it.

It seems that the rear input and rear pinion/output bearings had long gone bad from lack of lubrication and eventually damaged the case and retainer. We are looking at either purchasing another to rebuild, or swap in an F23 with a conversion kit. Originally I'd intended to do the swap - I just have a bad feeling about these 282's now - rare, often damaged (2 bad units in this car, and the ones we've located thus far are in unusable shape), and unavailable parts. On the other hand, I've been recommended by some (including my mechanic) to just go the rebuild route once/if we locate a decent example - a good job should last after all. I'm tired of gambling on 30+ year old 282's.

Any thoughts or insights? I have no plans to swap in another engine anytime soon - the 2.8 runs very well, the F23 is mostly just for the availability and age.

I do have the steel input bearing/seal from Rodney Dickman's installed - they said it looks fine and can be reused. For what it's worth.

Regarding the F23 option:
I understand I will need a "metric (60 degree)" bellhousing that fits with the 2.2L 2200 series engine. So, is it correct to say that any car with any sort of ecotec bellhousing will not work? And that the 2200 bellhousing was not manufactured after 2002? And finally, would I be correct in assuming that, if the internals on the F23 were to fail, any newer F23 gear half would do to replace it?

Thanks guys in advance


EDIT: added pictures

[This message has been edited by rednotdead (edited 07-12-2018).]

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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post07-12-2018 08:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just beware that the gearing in the F23 from a 2200 motor is quite different from the 282 Trans and is better suited to a high revving, 4 cyl engine. I have had both, and much prefer the gearing of the 282

On Rodney's website, there is a link to a shop in Minnesota that apparently does a good job of rebuilding the 282 transmission. What I plan to do is grab one or two spare 282 transmissions and get them rebuilt and store them in case I blow mine up. This way mounts, linkages, etc just work nicely.

There is another gear set available for the Ecotec that is more rare and better suited to the V6- I think it comes out of the supercharged or turbo Solstice cars and you have to split the case and install them into the 2200 bell housing. I never drove one, but apparently it is better. With the F23 trans gearing, I found it revved up far too quickly for a V6 engine, forcing early shifts.

Good luck
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2.5
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Report this Post07-12-2018 10:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rednotdead:
It seems that the rear input and rear pinion/output bearings had long gone bad from lack of lubrication and eventually damaged the case and retainer.



Is this simply caused by someone not keeping the trans full?
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rednotdead
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Report this Post07-18-2018 03:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rednotdeadClick Here to Email rednotdeadSend a Private Message to rednotdeadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Is this simply caused by someone not keeping the trans full?


Yes, that's what they told me. The damage had been accumulating for years, the tranny was bad from the start and my previous shop was negligent in swapping it in.
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Raydar
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Report this Post07-18-2018 05:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Look at a New Venture T-550. It's essentially a 282 with revised (stronger) differential gears, and a hydraulic release bearing. Came in the ~93 Cavalier with the 3.1 engine.
You'll need Rodney's FWD Getrag conversion parts, and probably a Dakota Digital speedo adapter, due to the different VSS. (You'll need the same adapter for the F23.)
All your Getrag brackets will work. You may have to tap a couple of holes for the select cable bracket, but no big deal. (See below.)

I installed one in my 4.9 car.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-1-085296.html

Note... Do NOT use the clutch assembly in the thread. It's too "tall". Use the Cavalier clutch.
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rednotdead
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Report this Post07-19-2018 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rednotdeadClick Here to Email rednotdeadSend a Private Message to rednotdeadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

Look at a New Venture T-550. It's essentially a 282 with revised (stronger) differential gears, and a hydraulic release bearing. Came in the ~93 Cavalier with the 3.1 engine.
You'll need Rodney's FWD Getrag conversion parts, and probably a Dakota Digital speedo adapter, due to the different VSS. (You'll need the same adapter for the F23.)
All your Getrag brackets will work. You may have to tap a couple of holes for the select cable bracket, but no big deal. (See below.)

I installed one in my 4.9 car.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-1-085296.html

Note... Do NOT use the clutch assembly in the thread. It's too "tall". Use the Cavalier clutch.


Thanks, very interesting - this does seem a more cost-effective /straightforwards swap, I'll look into it. Do you know if most internals (aside from the differential) are interchangeable with our 282s (in particular, those rear output/input bearings)? By the way, very nice car in that thread - an understated but attractive color.

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Raydar
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Report this Post07-19-2018 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rednotdead:

... Do you know if most internals (aside from the differential) are interchangeable with our 282s (in particular, those rear output/input bearings)?



I would assume so, but I really don't know. But please don't hold me to it.

Seriously... the tranny is really not much more difficult to install than another 282, and if you can find one that's not been driven into the ground, I wouldn't even bother with a rebuild.
(I believe I saw one with under 100K on it, for ~$250. You'll spend 3-4 times that much to rebuild... either one.)

Thanks for the kind words on my color choice.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-19-2018).]

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rednotdead
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Report this Post07-26-2018 08:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rednotdeadClick Here to Email rednotdeadSend a Private Message to rednotdeadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:

On Rodney's website, there is a link to a shop in Minnesota that apparently does a good job of rebuilding the 282 transmission.


 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
Seriously... the tranny is really not much more difficult to install than another 282, and if you can find one that's not been driven into the ground, I wouldn't even bother with a rebuild.
(I believe I saw one with under 100K on it, for ~$250. You'll spend 3-4 times that much to rebuild... either one.



Slowly, I've narrowed down to three options - cannibalizing a used Fiero Getrag I've located ($500+labor), swapping in one of those "new" ebay Quad 4's ($400 plus conversion parts and labor), or sending it out to the MN shop for a rebuild (about $1000). In my conversations with Rodney, he is skeptical that a normal tranny shop can handle the differential shim adjustment (I dont understand why this is needed). Is that a task that needs to be done everytime a Getrag is overhauled, or something specific to the Quad 4 swap? Is it really unreasonable to expect a shop that specializes in rebuilds to do that work properly?
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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post07-26-2018 08:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rednotdead:
In my conversations with Rodney, he is skeptical that a normal tranny shop can handle the differential shim adjustment (I dont understand why this is needed). Is that a task that needs to be done everytime a Getrag is overhauled, or something specific to the Quad 4 swap? Is it really unreasonable to expect a shop that specializes in rebuilds to do that work properly?


A differential in a Fiero (dunno about autotragic models) is supported by two tapered roller bearings, just like the front wheel bearings on an old-school RWD car.

The differential and bearing cone assembly is slightly longer than the transmission case and its bearing cups; the diff and bearing cone assembly is squished between both case halves

The amount of squish is specified as a certain distance.

There was too much variance in the parts at assembly to simply arrive at the correct squish (preload) randomly. Instead, each transmission was given a shim of just the right thickness so that its differential would be preloaded just the right amount.

If, during the overhaul, any parts that may affect differential bearing preload are changed, then the differential bearing preload must be verified. If the preload is out of spec, then a different shim must be installed in order to meet the preload spec.

I figured it out in my garage with the ebay tool (for a Muncie, but should be similar for Getrag)... so if an actual transmission shop can't figure it out, they should probably close their doors.
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Raydar
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Report this Post07-28-2018 08:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Be careful. Most of the Quad 4 Getrags came with 3.94 FDR. The Fiero and other V6 applications came with 3.61s.
To change the FDR, you'll have to change the differental and the output shaft, (IIRC)
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