I was contacted by author of the "All Corvette Colors", now writing a Fiero book. He is inquiring about Fiero Production grid I posted January 11, 2002. Does anyone know who compiled that grid ? I will send him a link to this post.
I saw your email address on Pennock's Fiero Forum. I am also a Pennock's member. I apologize for the intrusion.
I write to you because you posted a Fiero Production grid for all Fiero years in a January 11, 2002 post to the thread entitled "1988 Fiero Production Numbers."
That grid is very, very interesting (to me, at least). That grid identified the 1986 experimental colors and the 1988 experimental colors. I have the Pontiac production data sheets for those years, and the experimental color totals in the grid are spot-on correct. That grid also identified two (2) experimental colors for 1987. To me, that would indicate that whomever compiled that grid must have had access to a 1987 Pontiac report which broke down specific RPOs. I suspect that the 1987 information on that grid is correct.
A few posts later, in the same thread, you mentioned that you did not compile that grid, but that found it "a few months back."
Did you ever discover who compiled that grid? If so, could you forward their name or other contact information to me? Any lead would help.
I know your post is from almost 16 years ago, but, for me, it's worth contacting you in the hopes that you might know who compiled that grid.
(I am the author of the "All Corvette Colors" series of fact books available on Amazon and I am now working on a Fiero fact book.) Thank you for your help.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Sincerely,
Robert Casey, Los Angeles, California
If anyone know who compiled the list, please post, thank you.
Also check out Mark Corbin's "Fiero Spotter's Guide". (I'm not sure if it's still in production or not. I've had my copy forever.) I don't recall it mentioning any experimental colors, however.
For what it's worth, I have seen a 1985 SE, painted in the 1987 blue metallic. It was a GM experimental car, and the RPO tags reflect that. The car is currently at the Fiero Factory (TFF Auto) in Toney Alabama.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-24-2017).]
Wow. A sincere thank you to you, Dave, for this post. Great responses, interest, and information already!
I have spoken on the phone with Mark Corbin, the author of the Fiero Spotter's Guide. He is more into Corvairs now but he said he'd try to find his original source data. (Really nice man.)
Just today, I called Tim Dye at the Pontiac-Oakland Museum in Pontiac, Illinois. (He had in the past given me some production data about the 3rd Gen Firebird. He and his wife, Penny, are great.) As luck would have it, Fred Bartemeyer was there and I spoke with him about Fiero production data. He is not aware of any other data than what is in The Enthusiast's Guide to the Pontiac Fiero book which he co-authored. However, some of the data totals which have been posted on this forum indicate that there must be other Pontiac Fiero production reports floating around out there.
I have also spoken with John Podziemski, Jim Hallman, and Jim Mattision. They have been helpful, but no additional information was found.
I have two main questions:
(1) Where did the 1988 Coupe/Formula color breakout come from? I surmise that there must have been a Pontiac report with these breakout totals. The Coupe/Formula breakout would be in a Pontiac report entitled, "Option Analysis by Selected UPC Usage," and be subtitled either -W66 or +W66. That is the report I am looking for.
(2) The Fiero production grid (which is linked above to the original thread) correctly indicates experimental color amounts for 1986 and 1988. The grid also indicates an experimental amount for 1987. What report did that 1987 figure come from?
Well, it sure would be great to dig up another Fiero report or two. In today's world of instant communication, taking a photo and texting a photo to a phone or laptop takes only a few seconds.
I also found this, but the only image was of the blue PPG car. “There were six of these specially prepped Fiero GTPs in various experimental PPG pearl metallic colors that made up the PPG Championship Auto Racing Teams (CART) Precision Driving Team,” says Ed York, owner of PPG Fiero GTP No. 6.
Since Autostyle Plastics is no longer in business, we relied upon a brochure, which PPG distributed at track events in 1986 and 1987 to help fill in some details of the cars’ conversions."
Should someone have a copy of that brochure, it may provide the desired information, if the PPG colors were the actual experimental colors for the production Fieros.
Ed and Bart have 2 of the 6 PPG cars, and I believe have that info. The colors of those 2 cars appear to be different, to me. GM was willing to let these cars go, long ago, because GM didn't prep them; they were all PPG interpretations. Several years ago, I ran across a local guy who used to own at least one of the PPG Fieros. I'm not sure there would be any benefit to tracking him down.
To the best of my knowledge the colors were pure PPG and had nothing to do with Oo tics on any of the Pace cars.
I was around the cars in the day and have the folder. I need to re read it but PPG was about promoting their product to the public not Pintiac.
The guy incharge of the cars was in Colorado and may have passed away. My FatherIn Law was friends with his brother Ernie and he introduced me to him yeas ago. I also had met him at Mid Ohio in 1985.
He also got us prime vip tickets to the first Brick Yard race
I think if you want to know anything about experimental colors you need to contact or start with John Schinella do GM. He was over the design and would have known any one all colors.
Robert if you want to contact me send a PM on the site and I can give you contact info.
I have been involved with the car since 1980 and a original owner since 1985. I have a large collection of info.
Not sure what all you want but if I can help I would be glad to.
Fred should pop in here at some point he is the king of info and owns 3 different PPG Fietos. He should be able to help too.
But I would say if you want color info it will need to come from GM or a ex Fiero team member.
I have some 1990 Fiero prototype parts and I was lucky after two years to find someone at GM willing to help or could remember. Since the bail out many are gone and some have passed.
The colors for the Fiero were pretty simple and straight forward. The 1980’s were not an era of specialization. Option packages and standard colors were the rule and GM was not much into building much in one off Fieros or many other cars at this time.
tshark: The GTP cars are very cool. I’ve visited Ed’s site before. http://edsfieros.com/ Very nice. Those six cars were 1985 models, I do believe, and I am focusing on finding the 1987 and 1988 Pontiac production reports, as I have a 1985 Pontiac report and I am good with the 1985 data presented.
However, it would be great to know the PPG paint codes for those six GTP cars. I love that Emerald Green. Were all six colors metallic? I know that Corvette was experimenting with metallic white and black in 1984.
hyperv6: You are correct. PPG typically painted and fabricated panels for Pace Cars or Track Cars on their own, as a way to promote their product. I can remember most of the PPG cars from the 1980s – especially the 1988 Buick Reatta PPG (CART Series) Track Car painted Root Beer Pearl.
I’m not so much interested in the actual colors, but more interested in Pontiac’s RPO Production reports, which will indicate equipment RPOs, color RPOs, including the experimental color RPO 01U. In Pontiac reports, they used the designator UPC, not RPO. There are two formats of yearly Pontiac reports that I am looking for:
(1) “Options & Accessories” report, likely used in 1984 thru 1987,
and/or
(2) “Option Analysis by Selected UPC Usage” report, likely used in 1987 and 1988.
fierofool: That chart you’ve linked is a nice find. I have never seen that chart. However, it seems to mirror the grid information which is linked in the first post above. One may have been the source for the other. But, was the original author using Pontiac production reports?
Let’s focus on 1987. Note that 1987 color production does not equal 1987 unit production – there is a 54 unit difference.
This is an interesting difference, as 54 units were the exact amount of 1988 pilot cars built during 1987 production. Is it a coincidence that both 1987 and 1988 had 54 pilot cars? Or were another 54 cars accidentally subtracted from the 1987 production total? (The 1987 production total which we currently agree upon – 46,581 units – already has the 54 units of 1988 pilots subtracted!)
Further, the 1987 chart indicates two Bright Red cars and two experimental color cars. Were they the same two cars?
No matter which chart/grid was compiled first, I suspect that the original author correctly indicated two units of 1987 experimental color cars from his source document. Why? Because the author uses sources which indicate CORRECT totals for both the 1986 AND the 1988 experimental color totals (this I know from Pontiac data). For 1987, there would be no reason for the original author to deviate from his sources. The author of the original compilation must have had access to a 1987 production report, likely the “Option Analysis by Selected UPC Usage” report from 1987.
That is the report which I am trying to find.
I hope we can uncover some new Fiero information - thanks to all!
Yes the PPG colors and paint were too difficult and expensive for production back in that era.
As for the RPO colors they are shot and listed in various places.
There was a couple cars claimed to have been odd factory paint out there but I have never see documentation to back it. Odds are they were legit but never proven.
I sent Fred a PM, hope he will be able to add some information here.
If anyone can contact our best Fiero historians, please direct them to this post, I'm sure they can add more information that can help. Thanks.
Been searching on line and most production totals do not list the experimental units.
I wish I could remember where I snagged this chart. I'm glad I did, as it may have been lost to us all over the years.
I remember talking with a fellow that worked on the production line, he said Pontiac had painted up a few Fiero's with different colors on each fender and doors to test the colors out. He said they used them on the factory grounds, but not on the public roads. Wonder if these could be part of the experimental cars listed.
[This message has been edited by CoolBlue87GT (edited 11-26-2017).]
The link I posted came from an article in Hot Rod Magazine. It also said that all the PPG cars were painted in a pearl base coat, clear coat, wet on wet application. I think it was a non-isocyanic paint. Maybe not the correct word, but similar to that. My first thoughts of the word was that it didn't have Super Glue in the formula.
All the PPG cars were built from GT's, and not SE's so production numbers may include those vehicles. The GT's were probably chosen due to the aero trim on the sides. Other than trim, the SE's could be identical to the GT.
I did talk to Robert on Saturday. The specific information he is looking for to publish in his book is currently not available. Everyone needs to keep in mind that when Pontiac moved out of the corporate building in Pontiac and went back downtown, they literally cleaned the building out in to dumpsters. People like Jim Mattison were lucky enough to recover the material that he did. But there was so much of it in such a short window that there was no way of retrieving all of it. Unfortunately, most of the information related directly to production for all car lines across Pontiac were lost, especially the 80's and 90's. We were lucky enough to find some production data on Saturday at the museum, but it is not complete enough to specifically know how many of of each model were produced in a specific color.
I am not sure how the PPG Pace Cars got involved in this thread. The special colors that they were painted had nothing to do with production Fieros, but did have a lot to do with PPG who is in the paint business. The significance of the paint on these cars was the experimental stage of the catalyst based urethane formulated paint process that would soon become the DAU Deltron paint used for consumer based refinish products. The pearl additives were experimental also. The pearl additive used on these six cars was a liquid similar to syrup that required a series of additional additives to activate and was sprayed as a separate step before the clearcoat was applied. Unlike the powder added to the clearcoat that is used today.
The only significance to production history is that the Red Turbo and Yellow pace car were Red 85 GT Production Pilot Build cars that were tested at Milford proving grounds. The Blue pace car was a engineering test car that was used for EPA emissions certifications. Instead of being destroyed like most of these types of cars did, Pontiac Motorsports donated the remnants of the cars after testing to support the six car PPG Pace Car Team.
The chart that Cool Blue posted is from one of the former Fiero Clubs and I recall this from the early nineties. I agree to the fact that it is not correct. The entire experimental column is in error. Pontiac made more than those small numbers of experimental and prototype Fieros. The Experimental and Concept Fieros would have not been anywhere near the Fiero Plant and would have no influence on production data. Some of the Prototype cars however could have been produced at the factory with a VIN number. It was just a matter of what Pontiac had in mind for them. Most of these cars did not have an MSO issued on them, so they would have never made it in to the public sector. I have been looking through some of my old FOCOA and FOA newsletters to see if I can find the original.
I continue to search for the coveted production records, but have not had a complete success yet.
A little off topic. Is this the Ultimate Fiero book? I want to buy a Fiero book to help with my research and learning more about the car's design, mechanics etc. Thanks.
Hello, I've been working too many hours and I finally have a chance to respond.
CoolBlue87GT: Yes, Fred and I spoke on the phone, as mentioned in my original email to you and my post of 11-25-17 on this thread (above). Thanks again for your help!
Fred: It was a pleasure to chat with you while you were at the Pontiac-Oakland Museum with Tim Dye, the owner. Very nice man.
Fred, your knowledge and love of the Fiero and the people associated with the Fiero hobby is unsurpassed.
However, we will have to agree to disagree.
You mention that you recall the chart at issue and, "I agree to the fact that it is not correct."
Your sweeping statement about the chart is incorrect. Ninety percent of the production figures in the book that you co-authored agree with that chart.
Further, you mention that, "The entire experimental column is in error." You then discuss experimental Fiero cars.
In fact, the entire experimental column is correct.
You have misread the headings of the lower table. The "experimental" totals are for color, not cars.
I can say with confidence that the chart at issue correctly indicates the experimental colors for 1986 and 1988.
I can also say with confidence that the chart at issue is incorrect about the lack of a 1984 experimental color. In fact, there were two 1984 experimental color units recorded by Pontiac. Fortunately, the lower table correctly indicates 136,842 total units produced for 1984. The chart adds the two units of 1984 experimental colors into the Silver color total (one unit) and the White color total (one unit). Similar to what other GM divisions did with experimental colors, Pontiac did not report the two experimental units in their final production totals. Note that the chart at issue indicates 136,840 units for 1984 on the top table.
Now, I find the "movement" of those two 1984 cars quite interesting. Whoever compiled the chart at issue must have had a production report for the 1984 Fiero which correctly counted the cars produced. Heck, that production report (whatever it was) is better than the Automotive News Magazine with it's Market Data Book issues, which for the 1984 Fiero, is very incorrect for the 1984 total production figure (once the monthly totals are added).
What does this information tell me? Whoever compiled this chart had correctly indicated, in different ways, the experimental colors for the 1984, 1986, and 1988 Fiero.
This forces me to take note of the 1987 experimental color total of two ("2") units indicated on the chart. Why would the person who compiled the chart at issue place that number there?
That person must have had a source document which indicated two experimental cars for 1987.
That document likely indicated much more than just the experimental color Fieros of 1987.
The above is the reasoning behind my search for a 1987 Pontiac Fiero production document. As mentioned, that document would likely be titled, "Option Analysis by Selected UPC Usage."
(Pontiac production reports typically used UPC, not RPO.)
I hope that this 1987 production report can be found. It would certainly serve to promote the Fiero hobby!
The truth is there will never be a complete listing of what all went on.
As Fred pointed out if Jim did not save it then odds are unwell a lost record is recovered the info is gone.
Even when GM had the info it was damn near impossible to find someone willing to find it. It took two years to get my 1990 blueprint with help from some well placed people.
Also much goes on of the record too. Things never documented. Kind of like the G5 ecotec turbo I found at the plant that no one had ever seen or knew about.. it was a product of a undocumented low level decision and was relegated to running parts at the Ohio plant when rejected.
Even many of the people involved do not remember anymore as this was just one job of many cars they worked in. Also they are older and do not recall as much.
Robert please do not discount Fred as you will find while things are not always clear on the info his is the best that is out there. The truth is you can ask 5 GM people and it can result in 5 different responses. Fred’s info also has evolved with time as more info has been found.
What you will find if you dig long enough some odd thing here or there and often it went to the crusher with many never seeing it.
With so much to be written about the Fiero dwelling on a odd color is line swallowing an elephant while choking on a flea.
The real story is the drama of the car and how it was done. The documented items like plastic wheels and 2.9 engines that never made production. The 1990 that many never knew much about other than some obscure colors.
Your only hope for more info may be at the tech center. Might try a Jeff Dennison to see if he might know where to find more info. If he is a dead end then you may be stuck.
Fred knows more about the Fiero than anyone out there. That is accepted by everyone, including me. He has earned this distinction and the respect that goes with it.
I have privately emailed Fred in the past and, as mentioned above, Fred and I had a truly friendly conversation on the phone. I certainly would never discount Fred in any way.
Educated gentlemen will agree to disagree on the silliest of things. (I still laugh when the Duke brothers made their "usual" bet in the bathroom about Eddie Murphy in the film, Trading Places.) We cannot truly know what is out there, as far as Pontiac production reports go. This 1987 Fiero production report is a true needle-in-a-haystack. I believe that it is out there somewhere. That needle-in-a-haystack would benefit the Fiero hobbiest and add depth of knowledge to the 1987 Fiero production numbers. It is not the odd color we are after. We are after the entire report. That report does not simply have color totals, it has a complete listing of ALL of the RPO totals for 1987.
I have worked for years searching for, finding, and verifying legal information from primary source documents. Primary sources are very important. Pontiac reports are primary sources. A book written by me, or anyone other than GM, is a secondary source. While researching, some numbers can indicate that there was another source which must have had more or different information. I see certain Fiero information, and suspect that there are other reports out there with more information than is currently known.
Will that 1987 Pontiac report include the pilot or prototype cars? Maybe. (The 1988 report does!) It might not be earth shattering to have that information, but maybe one of those cars was pushed past security and out of the plant one night, and you happen to find it for sale next week. That would be very cool. What could be learned and documented from that car? What if we found out that there were only 150 units of Silver GTs built in 1987? And you had one?
Football teams win because of teamwork. Hockey teams win because of teamwork. Teamwork is an amazing thing. As a team, we can search for this 1987 Pontiac Fiero report.
We all know that things show up in the strangest places. And sometimes, all you have to do is ask for what you want. That is what I'm doing here. It is a forum to further Fiero knowledge. If we become complacent and stop digging and searching for any further Fiero information, we are doing a disservice to the Fiero hobby.
That report should be titled, "Option Analysis by Selected UPC Usage." Let's keep looking and find it!
To help, I could post an image of the 1988 report, but I do not know how to post photos here.
Fascinating discussion. Are you (the new Fiero book researcher) making plans to attend our gathering in East Peoria, IL to celebrate the 35th anniversary of the Fiero, in August 2018? And additionally, please let us know when your book is published. My guess is there are several of us interested is reading it.
------------------ 1988 GT Medium Red Metallic Manual, Gray Leather K Beck LEDs & StuWipes Frazee: 2011, 2014, 2016
[This message has been edited by Vernon8360 (edited 12-12-2017).]
Check out: www.fiero35.com and I believe there is a thread on this forum dedicated to it, as well. SAVE THE DATE! 35th Anniversary Show is a GO!!! under "General Fiero Chat"
------------------ 1988 GT Medium Red Metallic Manual, Gray Leather K Beck LEDs & StuWipes Frazee: 2011, 2014, 2016
To the gentleman writing the Fiero book. Have you tried the the GM "museum" , The Heritage Center? It is in Sterling Heights, MI. I believe it is on Van Dyke Rd. I could drive you to it. LOL I have been to it many times in the past. Over 36 years in GM sales, I have attended many "new vehicle introductions" at the Center. They have quite the research center there. I would think that would be a good place to get some information.
I have owned this book for some time, now. Although it is quite good, there is one question that I believe remains unanswered...
There were some white 87s. I've seen white coupes, and white GTs. They are fairly common. "87 / white" is even mentioned in the book, but not broken down. Has anyone ever seen a white 87 SE? Does anyone here own one?
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-03-2018).]
Since researching on painting my 86GT hood, deck etc, I thought it was interesting that on the fender tag my car had the 81 code WA8774 of the 86-88 Bright Red but my car was actually the 84-85 WA8553 color Red. Maybe the factory was trying to use up the paint that they had in stock, on the early 86GTs ?
[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 12-03-2018).]
According to the the 1/4 mile performance info on the chart; The 85 super duty 4 with the 4 speed and 4.10 FDR does a 0-60 in 6.3 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 14.7 seconds. That's faster than the 85 GT and Corvette! The bad news is that you had to swap the SD4 engine yourself. Getting back to the book, I would very much like to see an interior picture of the stretched 4 seat GT prototype and how GM did the frame. That's got to be the weirdest Fiero prototype of all.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
