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Do spoilers make a difference on the Fiero? by Threedog
Started on: 06-25-2017 12:20 PM
Replies: 54 (1170 views)
Last post by: sardonyx247 on 07-03-2017 07:10 AM
Threedog
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Report this Post06-25-2017 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThreedogClick Here to Email ThreedogSend a Private Message to ThreedogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One of the first things I did on my GT was get rid of the spoiler, I hated the way it looked. Ever since then, I have always driven without one.

Just recently, I installed a decklid rack on the back(from a notchback), which has a small spoiler included, and I could swear that on the highway I don't get pushed around by wind half as much. The car feels more planted and stable at 75-80mph.


I am having a hard time believing that this tiny little spoiler does so much for the car. Have other people noticed a difference?


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Report this Post06-25-2017 12:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just drove for 20 minutes at 60 MPH after a downpour left large drops on the Formula wing. The drops just wiggled around; there didn't seem to be much flow over the airfoil - just turbulence.
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Report this Post06-25-2017 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThreedogClick Here to Email ThreedogSend a Private Message to ThreedogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:

I just drove for 20 minutes at 60 MPH after a downpour left large drops on the Formula wing. The drops just wiggled around; there didn't seem to be much flow over the airfoil - just turbulence.



I always noticed my 4th gen Camaro had a "cone" of water directed under the spoiler after rain/snow, I'll have to look at that on the Fiero..
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Report this Post06-25-2017 01:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

I am having a hard time believing that this tiny little spoiler does so much for the car.


So are we.
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Report this Post06-25-2017 02:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThreedogClick Here to Email ThreedogSend a Private Message to ThreedogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

So are we.


Right? I literally just drove it down the highway and again, it felt more stable. I must be imagining it..
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Report this Post06-25-2017 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Supposedly, the rear spoiler improved the Drag Coefficient a bit- I believe from .375 to .35...I can't find where it said that...Probably a R&T test article....

Also supposedly, the car was less aerodynamic without the vents in the decklid but I really don't have a CLUE where I read that....

Aerodynamics is a....slippery subject(Pun intended!)...The biggest improvement in eliminating lift on the front of the 70s TA was the fender vents- not the spats or chin dam.....And I find a lot of people will ram more and more air under the hood of a car- without ever paying attention to.....where it goes after it enters....I have a slight leg up(But am still learning) because I grew up around aircraft and then worked on them...sometimes they were capable of flying AFTER I worked on them....
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Report this Post06-25-2017 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you want to see the air flow, tape some small strips of ribbon all over the deck lid and drive down the road. You will probably be amazed at the number of them that are flowing forward.
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Report this Post06-25-2017 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROPHREKSend a Private Message to FIEROPHREKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

One of the first things I did on my GT was get rid of the spoiler, I hated the way it looked. Ever since then, I have always driven without one.

Just recently, I installed a decklid rack on the back(from a notchback), which has a small spoiler included, and I could swear that on the highway I don't get pushed around by wind half as much. The car feels more planted and stable at 75-80mph.


I am having a hard time believing that this tiny little spoiler does so much for the car. Have other people noticed a difference?


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Funny that you mention this. I recently painted my formula and it seems to float around my lane when I'm traveling 70-80 mph. Never did it before I painted it. The only difference is now I didn't install the wing yet because it was cracked and needs replaced.



------------------

ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

12.3 is faster than a 13.2

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Report this Post06-26-2017 02:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

I must be imagining it.


My cars always seem to run better after I wash them. Funny how that works, eh?

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Report this Post06-26-2017 04:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The wing is required I have mine off for looks but there is a difference. Those that don't notice it are probably taking it pretty easy.
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Report this Post06-26-2017 07:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Supposedly, the rear spoiler improved the Drag Coefficient a bit- I believe from .375 to .35...I can't find where it said that...Probably a R&T test article....

Also supposedly, the car was less aerodynamic without the vents in the decklid but I really don't have a CLUE where I read that....

Aerodynamics is a....slippery subject(Pun intended!)...The biggest improvement in eliminating lift on the front of the 70s TA was the fender vents- not the spats or chin dam.....And I find a lot of people will ram more and more air under the hood of a car- without ever paying attention to.....where it goes after it enters....I have a slight leg up(But am still learning) because I grew up around aircraft and then worked on them...sometimes they were capable of flying AFTER I worked on them....



This is the true statment.

The wing was for just the reduction in drag but no down force. Pontiac stated this to the media in 85 when I bought my car.

The fact is most spoilers do little on the street at legal speeds.

As for the vents in back I have never seen anything stated but I do know first hand that GM scoops up air under the Catrone and vents it or top to increase cooling hence why they were. Added on the V6.

One area that really is an issue is the nose. The coupe will generate lift and at 90 mph the nose begins to lift and you can feel it in the steering. You are not going to flip but the car does feel less stable.

I added an air dam and it went away.

Also the vented hoods do relieve high pressure under the hood and also can add to stability. I did notice a difference there st high speeds and it makes one heck of a bug deflector.

You would not believe how hard it will shot a moth higher over the car.
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Report this Post06-26-2017 07:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

The wing was for just the reduction in drag but no down force. .


Not true. It provides 5 pounds of down force because it weighs 5 pounds.

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Report this Post06-26-2017 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
The fact is most spoilers do little on the street at legal speeds.


That is a design choice, not because it needs to be that way.

Formula SAE cars can get good downforce at low speeds (as in less than 60 mph):
https://www.dhbw-engineerin...GP0498-2560x1696.jpg
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Report this Post06-26-2017 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:


Not true. It provides 5 pounds of down force because it weighs 5 pounds.


Oh man.....I think some milk came out thru my nose....And Rodney hit the nail on the head!

Here is an interesting fact about tail spoilers(Not so much wings)....A lot of people design add-on spoilers to stick up to create more down-force....But they do not pay attention to.....VACUUM.....Instead of tilting it up, let it stick out behind..more horizontal- there is low air pressure behind the car....By putting it on horizontal, you get low air pressure on the bottom without creating drag by having it stick UP in the air stream(On the Fiero, because of the "Cove" rear window, it actually is beneficial to have some increase in pressure on top of the trunk).....My main kernel of knowledge is, consider BOTH low and high pressure when modifying you car.
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Report this Post06-26-2017 12:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been wondering how the cars with the externded wing stands have affected the air flow.
For example some have a stand that looks close to triple as high as stock, and also seem to appear angled a little more at the top resulting in a wing that is tilted up in the back more?

Such as this:





[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 06-26-2017).]

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Report this Post06-26-2017 01:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Australian:

The wing is required I have mine off for looks but there is a difference. Those that don't notice it are probably taking it pretty easy.


I'm not convinced that a factory wing on Fiero does anything significant... and keep in mind that in this thread the OP is actually referring to the piddly little "wing" which is part of a luggage rack.

This is how to create down-force at the rear of a Fiero.

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Report this Post06-26-2017 01:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trivetClick Here to Email trivetSend a Private Message to trivetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

This is how to create down-force at the rear of a Fiero.



This is NOT true!!! That is obviously a DISHWASHER, not a WASHING MACHINE. Everyone knows dishwashers provide better down-force!
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Report this Post06-26-2017 01:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

..and keep in mind that in this thread the OP is actually referring to the piddly little "wing" which is part of a luggage rack.



I don't think he was talking about the luggage rack, but I also wasn't sure what that car had to do with the question...
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Report this Post06-26-2017 01:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

I have been wondering how the cars with the externded wing stands have affected the air flow.
For example some have a stand that looks close to triple as high as stock, and also seem to appear angled a little more at the top resulting in a wing that is tilted up in the back more?
...




I cannot comment on your specific question, but having the TLG lower stands, I do not get any dust on the top of my bumper cover, or in my rear reflectors. I know that I mentioned this before, but questions are being asked. I am meticulous about keeping my GT clean, and after the install years back, I commented about how much less debris collects on the rear of my 1987 GT. With the stock GT wing stands I was battling this constantly.

Even the rear fenders just behind the tires accumulate less rubber. I run summer tires and they shed rubber like crazy. Often leaving a fine rubbery haze on the lower fenders. Not so much after the wing adjustment.

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Report this Post06-26-2017 02:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ummmmm......Doesn't matter if it's a dishwasher or washing machine.....It's all in how you position it....and how full of water it is....Science people....It's all in the science!

((It is just AMAZING what people will do with their cars- sadly, especially, Fieros......))
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Report this Post06-26-2017 03:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trivet:

That is obviously a DISHWASHER, not a WASHING MACHINE. Everyone knows dishwashers provide better down-force!


 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Ummmmm......Doesn't matter if it's a dishwasher or washing machine.....It's all in how you position it....and how full of water it is...


Damn, that would be heavy if it was full of water.

How about converting it to a fuel-cell? Extend the driving range, and keep the rear end planted. Win-win!
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Report this Post06-26-2017 03:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

I don't think he was talking about the luggage rack...


I beg to differ.

 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

Just recently, I installed a decklid rack on the back (from a notchback), which has a small spoiler included, and I could swear that on the highway I don't get pushed around by wind half as much. The car feels more planted and stable at 75-80mph.

I am having a hard time believing that this tiny little spoiler does so much for the car.



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Report this Post06-26-2017 10:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you put luggage on the luggage rack (which will hide the "mini-spoiler" from the wind), and the car still feels planted, then you'll know you felt the placebo effect!

My present Fiero has a luggage rack, whereas my previous one had a wing. I really like how the luggage rack serves as a convenient handle to open/close the decklid.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 06-26-2017).]

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Report this Post06-26-2017 11:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
By the way, Crosswind stability is influenced by area and position of the side of the car....In the old days, it was well known that station wagons were the most stable vehicles in crosswinds...The large surface area at the rear of the car created more lateral thrust at the rear, basically crabbing the vehicle slightly into the wind and counteracting the lateral thrust against the whole car....I would suspect that an 86-88 GT would be slightly more stable in crosswinds than a notchy. It is much more complicated than this because the car is moving thru the wind, not just statically sitting there.
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Report this Post06-27-2017 01:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for liv4GodSend a Private Message to liv4GodEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Double post

[This message has been edited by liv4God (edited 06-27-2017).]

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quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Supposedly, the rear spoiler improved the Drag Coefficient a bit- I believe from .375 to .35...I can't find where it said that...Probably a R&T test article....


Right on with the numbers, its right here in this 85 dealer promo video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb3NOELcmxk (Go to 1 minute mark)
Just so happens that I watched this just the other day and was thinking "Wow the spoiler actually does do something" lol
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Report this Post06-27-2017 07:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by liv4God:


Right on with the numbers, its right here in this 85 dealer promo video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb3NOELcmxk (Go to 1 minute mark)
Just so happens that I watched this just the other day and was thinking "Wow the spoiler actually does do something" lol



Maxwell Smart quote; "Mind....Like a Steel Trap!" (Probably followed by running into a door!)
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Report this Post06-27-2017 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

I beg to differ.



Ah you are correct. Though he earlier said he removed a wing and that it now feels more stable. He did put a rack on too.
Well all the rack would do is disrupt the flow of a smooth lid and make slight turbulence if it did anything, but I don't think it sticks up high enough to even do that.

That's why I wondered about the tall wing, since its up so high, and so big it must be in the flow of air more.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 06-27-2017).]

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Report this Post06-27-2017 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet: ((It is just AMAZING what people will do with their cars- sadly, especially, Fieros......))


WARNING: The following photos will probably make you want to do irrational things.

Once upon a time, I built a roof rack for one of my Fieros, so I could carry cargo on it. The rack was about 8 feet long and 4 feet wide, so I could carry sheets of plywood. It was also tilted slightly forward, so the wind wouldn't try to pull stuff off of the rack. One unintended side effect was that a sheet of plywood placed on the rack would act like a giant spoiler. Even at speeds as low as 35mph, I could feel the car being pushed downward.





Some years later, I built adjustable wing stands for the rear spoiler.



The idea was to be able to "dial in" the downforce, by adjusting the angle of attack of the wing. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to do much for downforce, but did add a significant amount of drag when adjusted all the way up. The added aero drag was quantified by comparing quarter-mile runs with the spoiler cranked all the way up and all the way down. Plus, I could actually feel the difference. With the spoiler cranked all the way up, it felt like there was an invisible bungie cord pulling on the rear end.
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Report this Post06-27-2017 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Theres been a lot of discussions on the Fieros spoiler/wing. In MY opinion is mostly a decorative part and does very little if anything productive. It will move air around enough to keep the rear end cleaner. Station wagons used to have little aftermarket winglets on the rear corners of the greenhouse that prevented a lot of dust and dirt buildup on the rear window and door. They were just enough to affect the dust flow across the rear and did nothing for performance. As to downforce, pretty much none on any car have much effect on handling except over maybe 150 mph. Even the big winged Superbird/Daytona had little effect in everyday driving. It was a bonus near 200 mph in Nascar though. The vertical fins helped stability more than the horizontal wing part. Like mentioned already, lots of things make you 'feel' like your cars running better....placebo effect. I too notice my cars all performed better cleaned and polished. It didnt have anything to do with wax making it slicker.
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Report this Post06-27-2017 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I guess mainly I am wondering if the tall ones are detrimental to handling at all.
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Report this Post06-27-2017 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThreedogClick Here to Email ThreedogSend a Private Message to ThreedogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was talking about the tiny wing on the luggage rack, I bet it is mostly placebo.


Man, we need access to a wind tunnel.
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Report this Post06-27-2017 04:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you look at GM wind tunnel tests with string or ones done by members here, the GT wing actually makes the air move forward toward the rear window. Simple quick test on your own as your driving, watch water move on the deck lid when its raining. It will move to the front. The little thing on the rack does absolutely nothing at all except keep suitcases from sliding off the back of the strips.
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Report this Post06-27-2017 05:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison: ...the GT wing actually makes the air move forward toward the rear window.

The air does that naturally, due to the shape of the Fiero. The GT spoiler actually reduces the amount of air that flows forward across the deck. The spoiler would be more effective in that regard if it were shaped like a NASCAR spoiler instead of a wing. But apparently the GM engineers decided a wing looked better, so they went with that.

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Report this Post06-27-2017 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:
But apparently the GM engineers stylists decided a wing looked better, so they went with that.


Fixed
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fieroguru
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Report this Post06-27-2017 11:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is a good thread with videos by Blacktree
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...110502-2-092223.html
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Easy8
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Report this Post06-28-2017 11:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Easy8Send a Private Message to Easy8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by rogergarrison:

As to downforce, pretty much none on any car have much effect on handling except over maybe 150 mph. Even the big winged Superbird/Daytona had little effect in everyday driving. It was a bonus near 200 mph in Nascar though. The vertical fins helped stability more than the horizontal wing part.


I have a couple of issues with that statement. How many of today cars have cool automatic spoilers that deploy over 60 not 150?? There are a lot. Spoilers do not have to create down force to effect handling... What does spoiler do... it effects the airflow to remove unwanted turbulence. Now all those that talk about water moving forward on the trunk of a GT but notice it less with a spoiler have seen this.

Second, as an F1 fan I can tell you that spoilers and wings make massive difference in the handling of cars at very slow speeds. Now most road cars do not have the aero that an F1 car has but they do benefit from aero. It may not be the simple wing making 300 lbs of down force like most seem to feel they need. It may be a vent on a hood that removes 100 lbs of lift at 60 mph, or a rear lip spoiler that shifts the air up so the turbulent air behind the car is reduced.


On a side note.. some one asked about a high wing vs a low wing. I have one of both and can say I have not really felt much difference.... but let me say this. The low wing is in a bone stock GT, the high wing is on a a chop top with an LT1 in the back. (with a Mustang scoop on the trunk) So the high wing car has a more "Rodney style" down force.. but also has close to twice the horsepower and torque pushing things around. I feel they handle about the same but I do not push the chop that hard. It has 20s on it and I worry about fender rub if the springs compress to much... a project for another day.
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rogergarrison
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Report this Post06-28-2017 12:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Those are pretty much just a gimmick unless you drive the autobahn. It would take a spoiler as big as a door to affect handling at 50 mph. I know a lot of high end cars have that though. A friends Bentley Continental GT has one that comes up at 90 behind the rear window. Ive driven it up to 140 or so. It has no effect even that fast thats noticeable. You dont even know its up or not unless you look in the rear view mirror. The car has superb handling at any speed with/ without it extended. You can turn it on or off to come up or not. I felt absolutely no difference either way...just looked cool. Ive said before Its hard for me to keep a straight face at a car show when a Firebird or Mustang owner talks about how much better the car handles with the wing. Ferrari 308, 328, 355, etc all did just fine with nothing but a very small upturn at the back of the decklid. Some 308/328s had an optional spoiler at the rear of the roof. It did nothing for handling...was there just to keep the sun off the passengers necks and look cool. In fact the angle was such that it would actually cause more lift than downforce at the rear.

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post06-28-2017 07:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Those are pretty much just a gimmick unless you drive the autobahn. It would take a spoiler as big as a door to affect handling at 50 mph.


Spoilers that appear effective at low speed:
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

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andreww
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Report this Post06-29-2017 07:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for andrewwSend a Private Message to andrewwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Spoilers are pretty much useless on factory cars and do nothing but add weight and drag. They are ornamental only. A true spoiler will increase downforce and give better grip in corners but will also cause lots of drag at high speed and cause your top speed to take a big hit. A spoiler on a Fiero is a waste of time because there really is not a lot of horsepower and getting that power to the wheels while cornering does not generally tend to break the back end loose. If you had 600 HP, there might be a need for one.

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