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First start for 86 GT with 4.5 Cadillac by Johns 4.9
Started on: 06-22-2017 09:50 PM
Replies: 21 (552 views)
Last post by: Drewbdo on 06-28-2017 11:57 AM
Johns 4.9
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Report this Post06-22-2017 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Started very first try!

https://www.facebook.com/10...eos/479136032478342/

http://johns49performance.c...n-engine-01_orig.jpg

[This message has been edited by Johns 4.9 (edited 06-23-2017).]

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Spadesluck
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Report this Post06-23-2017 03:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

John, that sounds amazing. I can wait to get back and start my 4.9 project. I have contacted you through email already inquiring about performance bits and pieces for the 4.9. Glad to see you taking part in this forum.

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Patrick
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Report this Post06-23-2017 04:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


Sounds terrific! Next time though, get someone who knows how to hold the phone/camera properly.

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post06-23-2017 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Spadesluck and Patrick,

Thanks for the kind words, I really appreciate it!
If you need some parts help on your swap, Spadesluck, feel free to contact me.

Have a great weekend, Fiero Fans!
John

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-23-2017 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Its always a big thrill when engine swaps start right up. Good job. The 4.9L upgrade is always a possibility. I like these Cadillac engine swaps for their high torque and smooth cruising ability. You can also do them very cheaply so the 20HP and 275 lb lbs of torque is a good value. Should be starting up a new 4.9L swap within a few weeks.
BTW, not to be critical but I believe that EFI would have given you better performance and greatly improved mileage. A friends has a 4.9L swap and reports 30 mpg on the highway.
------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-23-2017).]

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post06-23-2017 08:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Dennis,
Yeah, it is very nice when it starts up first time. I still get a knot in my stomach for first engine start ups! I like the 4.9 engine for the same reasons you have. I am building a test engine right now to really test the limit of what these motors can take before they have parts failure. That should be finished by the end of the summer.

I see you are no stranger to horespower. The description of your two Fieros sounds awesome. Fun toys and good job!

Have a good one,
John

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Raymac85
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Report this Post06-23-2017 09:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thankyou for all your hard work helping me build my dream car John. I couldn't be happier with the motor. It runs insainly good and smooth. You are a master of your craft. Can't wait till she's broke in so I can have some fun this summer👍🏻

------------------
85 SE v6
86 GT 4.5l v8

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post06-23-2017 10:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Raymac85,
Its been a pleasure helping you build your car and you have something to be proud of. I am looking forward to testing your Stage III 4.5 against my Stage III 4.9 engine. I think your decision to go with the shorter stroke 90 4.5 is a good one considering the body weight of the Fiero. I think you are going to smoke me!

These two motors were built identical to each other by myself with exception of the crankshaft and rods. The 90 4.5 was a unique engine because of the rods and pistons and is the only year 4.5 to consider building. With the lighter weight of the crankshaft, the longer connecting rod and the 4.9 piston, you get an engine that wants to rev more that the 4.9 engine. So both engines have the same heads, camshaft, roller rockers, intake, distributor and exhaust system. So this should be a fun contest between torque and revs.

Bring it, Raymac85!

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pHoOl
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Report this Post06-24-2017 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pHoOlClick Here to visit pHoOl's HomePageClick Here to Email pHoOlSend a Private Message to pHoOlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

John, any idea what kind of power and torque you put down with your stage 3?

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post06-25-2017 03:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hi pHoOl,
If I were to guess I would say 300 hp and 350 tq. The engine idles great and pulls from 1500-6000. Its not a drag race motor, its a autocross and road course motor. Big difference. Drive-ability is excellent.
Thank you for your question,
John

[This message has been edited by Johns 4.9 (edited 06-25-2017).]

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Raydar
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Report this Post06-25-2017 08:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sounds wicked.
Posted a comment on your FB thread, too.

Wonder how that would run with an Allante intake and EFI.
(Yeah, I know you don't "speak" EFI. Just thinking out loud...)

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-25-2017).]

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pHoOl
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Report this Post06-25-2017 10:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pHoOlClick Here to visit pHoOl's HomePageClick Here to Email pHoOlSend a Private Message to pHoOlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yep, copy that. I've only got 62k miles so I dont see cutting it up anytime soon, but i like the 4.9 or an lnf/lhu ecotec type idea to stay near stock weight and balance

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post06-26-2017 01:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Raydar,
Thanks for the comments. And actually I really like the Allante intake manifold. I think its a great design and it will out flow all the other intake manifold. I have a few friends who have used with very good success. I make exhaust systems for either carb or EFI and I weld in the O2 bung or bungs for free. One of my customers just purchased and exhaust system from me and plans on using the Allante manifold. I am looking forward to hearing about his results. I plan on using an Allante manifold in one of my up coming projects.
I may not "speak" EFI but I sure like the FiTech Go Street EFI 400HP Self-Tuning Fuel Injection Systems 30003! Its self tuning so I don't have to speak to it. That's really good for me!
I think this EFI system is cool and could see me using one in the future. What do you think about this system as an EFI guy, Raydar? I would really like your opinion.
Thanks,
John

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Spadesluck
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Report this Post06-26-2017 02:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Well John, I can be a test dummy for you becasue I purchased all the Allante stuff already and have it waiting at home for me. I had planned on using your services when I get back stateside. You may not know it but I have already contacted you through email a few months ago about the 4.9 stuff, heads to be specific.

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post06-26-2017 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Okay Spadesluck, I know who you are from the emails. Very cool. All that Allante stuff will make your engine run great. I am looking forward to hearing about you build once you return stateside. As always, feel free to ask any questions. Stay safe.
John

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Raydar
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Report this Post06-26-2017 07:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Johns 4.9:

Hey Raydar,
Thanks for the comments. And actually I really like the Allante intake manifold. I think its a great design and it will out flow all the other intake manifold. I have a few friends who have used with very good success. I make exhaust systems for either carb or EFI and I weld in the O2 bung or bungs for free. One of my customers just purchased and exhaust system from me and plans on using the Allante manifold. I am looking forward to hearing about his results. I plan on using an Allante manifold in one of my up coming projects.
I may not "speak" EFI but I sure like the FiTech Go Street EFI 400HP Self-Tuning Fuel Injection Systems 30003! Its self tuning so I don't have to speak to it. That's really good for me!
I think this EFI system is cool and could see me using one in the future. What do you think about this system as an EFI guy, Raydar? I would really like your opinion.
Thanks,
John


John, I am also looking forward to hearing about the results. (Yours and Spadesluck's.)
I also recognize that the 4.5/4.9 is hobbled by the tiny ports and valves. The "all done by 5K" thing really gets old, especially with the Getrag trans. It really wants another gear. (Not that a higher redline will materially help that, but it will make it "seem better". )

The header/exhaust system that you construct... Would you entertain building one with a crossover that will clear the Getrag shift linkage, and dump out in the stock Fiero position?
Right now I have stock manifolds with a "piece built" crossover, that pretty much does just that. But I have a ton invested in the downstream exhaust system, and am not in a hurry to replace it. It flows very well, and sounds good.

My setup also has the steel Allante rocker supports. I have considered adding LT4 valve springs, and a 7730 ECM (I got a base tune from a friend) but it's way down the list.
A good set of heads would make it much more worthwhile. Maybe some shorter runners on the "folded TPI" Allante intake, to help the top end.

The 4.5 you build... Is it internally balanced? Or does it require a balanced flywheel.
(Seems like the stock 4.5 was externally balanced, but I don't remember, just now, without digging for it.)

Thanks.

Here's what I've got at present...

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-26-2017).]

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Spadesluck
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Report this Post06-27-2017 04:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Raydar, why the 7730 ECM?

I asked about that 7730 working with the 4.9 Caddy from another member and was informed that some items that need to be changed over to make it work.

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Shho13
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Report this Post06-27-2017 05:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shho13Click Here to Email Shho13Send a Private Message to Shho13Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

John this is very exciting to hear it run!

I plan on using your services this winter, I am going to be doing my 4.9 swap next year...

Planning on a set of headers, the engine mount (hopefully you have the dog bone mount available by then too), and the low mount alternator!

I just gotta find someone to make me a harness, It's going to have the Allante intake on it... Super exciting!

------------------
"Discord"
Red 1988 GT under restoration!

Let's Go Mets!

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post06-27-2017 03:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Raydar,

The biggest problem with the heads are the very small valve throats. Larger valves wont do anything unless you address this issue. My heads have big valves and an extreme amount of porting to open up the valve throats. Also the ratio of the two valve sizes, intake and exhaust, has a lot to do with where you want the rpm range to be. I really don't enlarge the intake ports, just clean them up and smooth the small radius section. The exhaust port gets a lot of work to open it up significantly. These changes in the heads physically alter the flow and increase the RPMs, and with a Delta camshaft these motors will really spin!

Your 4.9 Allante system looks great! That system really fits good in the engine bay.

The exhaust system I make has the y-pipe that goes under the car and dumps out in the stock Fiero location. This allow the user to use the Fiero style muffler and tail pipes. http://johns49performance.c...7802_p9_i5_w600.jpeg

The 4.5 engine is internally balanced on the front half and externally balanced on the back half. So it does require special balancing of the flywheel.

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post06-27-2017 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hi Shho13,
That sounds great and I am looking forward to helping you with your 4.9 swap. The Allante intake sure seems to be the hot set up. There are a lot of members in this forum that can help you out with that and help you find a wiring harness. Good luck and feel free to ask any questions.
John

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Raydar
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Report this Post06-27-2017 05:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

Raydar, why the 7730 ECM?

I asked about that 7730 working with the 4.9 Caddy from another member and was informed that some items that need to be changed over to make it work.


Two reasons...
I have a manual trans. The Cadillac PCM was never designed to run with a manual trans.
I did all the required jumpering and "rigging" to make it work, but it still feels "cobbled together".
I want to get rid of the goofy ISC motor, and go with the more familiar IAC. I have a 3800SC throttle body on my bench, but have considered finding a Northstar piece instead.
It also supports a knock sensor, if I decide to go nuts with the tune. (This is really not "a thing", but it's there if I decide I want it.)

 
quote
Originally posted by Johns 4.9:
...
The exhaust system I make has the y-pipe that goes under the car and dumps out in the stock Fiero location. This allow the user to use the Fiero style muffler and tail pipes. http://johns49performance.c...7802_p9_i5_w600.jpeg



Thanks John. By "stock Fiero location", it looks like you mean that it dumps out on the far right rear of the car, so that a "90" will connect it to the Fiero muffler.
I need something that dumps out in the left front (drivers side) corner of the engine bay, so that I can retain my cat and the rest of the system.

Either way... paying attention to this thread.

 
quote
Originally posted by Shho13:
...
I just gotta find someone to make me a harness, It's going to have the Allante intake on it... Super exciting!



There is not a heck of a lot of difference between a regular Fiero 4.9 harness, and one for the Allante setup. It's simple to adapt.
Starting with a regular harness, you will need to extend the IAT wiring (and maybe the MAP sensor) by a couple of feet; you will need to unwrap and reroute the ISC wiring; and you will need to replace the 4.9 TPS connector with the Allante piece.
The TPS is the real "gotcha" because the 4.9 TPS uses the center pin on the connector for the "wiper". The Allante uses one of the end pins for the wiper. It's very easy to mis-wire it. If that happens, the most noticeable symptom is that your automatic tranny (if that's what you have) will shift at funny times.

You MUST alter the tune. The 4.9 IAT is in the lower intake and stays very hot. The Allante IAT is up in the plenum, and is relatively cool. A stock 4.9 tune will cause it to run waaaay rich because of the different sensor operating temperatures.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-27-2017).]

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Drewbdo
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Report this Post06-28-2017 11:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DrewbdoSend a Private Message to DrewbdoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm thinking about putting a V8 into my F-car replica bodied 88 GT. Subscribing to this thread.

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