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Fiero-Fiasco Article by Fiero Vampire
Started on: 02-28-2017 02:06 PM
Replies: 28 (723 views)
Last post by: 2.5 on 03-15-2017 01:04 PM
Fiero Vampire
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Report this Post02-28-2017 02:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero VampireSend a Private Message to Fiero VampireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Found this Fiero-Fiasco Article while searching the web, didn't find it listed anywhere on the site, so figured I'd post a link here.
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Report this Post02-28-2017 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It is stories like this we really need to get the entire story out on what happened and why in full disclosure and detail.

If the full truth is never documented we will have to live with the half truths and rumors forever.

Fred, Ron we need to get this put together even if it is just on the web.
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Report this Post02-28-2017 03:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

It is stories like this we really need to get the entire story out on what happened and why in full disclosure and detail.

If the full truth is never documented we will have to live with the half truths and rumors forever.

Fred, Ron we need to get this put together even if it is just on the web.




Could speak it at the 35th Anniversary show
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Report this Post03-01-2017 10:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Curtisk1060Click Here to Email Curtisk1060Send a Private Message to Curtisk1060Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Seemed like a fairly straight forward comment as to how many people felt towards the Fiero in general, love my 88GT but the earlier models, not so much...
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FIERO JOHN-WI
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Report this Post03-03-2017 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIERO JOHN-WIClick Here to Email FIERO JOHN-WISend a Private Message to FIERO JOHN-WIEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree Hyper it needs to be told, if IL club can make the Enthusists Guide for Fiero people (past present & Future) to identify a Fiero model and all its options, then it should be easy to make a "correct" book on the history of the Fiero. (I think the IL club should start this endever) they would do a fine job. I think their club seams to take the bull by the horns or should I say wings of the horse (lol) and then you would see many people start to contribute. But you need that person to start it and they would. I HOPE
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Report this Post03-03-2017 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FIERO JOHN-WI:

I agree Hyper it needs to be told, if IL club can make the Enthusists Guide for Fiero people (past present & Future) to identify a Fiero model and all its options, then it should be easy to make a "correct" book on the history of the Fiero. (I think the IL club should start this endever) they would do a fine job. I think their club seams to take the bull by the horns or should I say wings of the horse (lol) and then you would see many people start to contribute. But you need that person to start it and they would. I HOPE


Fred and I have discussed it. I figure with a few of us contributing we could come up with a complete and clear telling of the car with all the good and bad things that went on. It is a story many who worked at GM do not want to touch even after they retire due to the much infighting.

We need to detail how and where the many details about the car not only from a Pontiac perspective but also from others inside GM. Dave McClellan of the Corvette team pointed out the V6 Mid engine transverse car really originated with the GM tech center engineers and was rejected by the Corvette team. They held onto it and offered it to Hulki when he was looking for a way to lower the cowl of the Fiero. He took their preliminary work and made it his own.

This is a very involved story that even today we are still learning many details that few would speak about.

I would be willing to do much of the writing but I would still need help on info and with the proof reading to make sure the details are correct.

We need to address GM's and Pontiac's mistakes as well as Chevy's influence and the Unions dealings in all of this. Too often the Fiero people tend to ignore the fact Pontiac took some major risks and made some major mistakes to get the car build and in the end it caught up with them.

The risk they took to build the car at the Pontiac plant with no other cars for a couple years let them over build the car and flooded the market. They were banking on the GM 80 program to come to the plant and when it died the Fiero died with it. That was all the Corvette people needed to help get the program shut down.

While contributions to the topic are welcomed I still would like to keep this to 3-4 people that really know the story and to keep it simple and on point. Even if it is just to be posted on a web site some where or a wiki that would be fine. The story just needs to be told accurately for once and so it is not lost.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 03-03-2017).]

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Report this Post03-06-2017 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

The risk they took to build the car at the Pontiac plant with no other cars for a couple years let them over build the car and flooded the market. They were banking on the GM 80 program to come to the plant and when it died the Fiero died with it. That was all the Corvette people needed to help get the program shut down.



This GM 80 right?



http://www.gminsidenews.com...irebird-gm80-109375/

https://www.thirdgen.org/fo...drawings-models.html

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Report this Post03-06-2017 04:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd also love to learn how Saturn is related.





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Report this Post03-06-2017 09:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


This GM 80 right?



http://www.gminsidenews.com...irebird-gm80-109375/

https://www.thirdgen.org/fo...drawings-models.html


Yes this was the fwd f body replacement. They also were looking at AWD but only with a V6.

Much of the body is composit.

The plan was to share the Fiero plant to fill out capacity.

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Report this Post03-06-2017 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lorennerolSend a Private Message to lorennerolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

I'd also love to learn how Saturn is related.



My garage holds two fantastic two-seat sports cars built by GM. The Fiero lasted 4.5 years. The Saturn Sky lasted three. Both died, in part (but not entirely), due to corner cutting that caused owner headaches. In a world where Mazda has been pumping out and selling Miatas for two decades, the sales issues both had weren't, in my opinion, inevitable.

Oh, and GM scrapped the hydro-forming dies for the Sky hood. Not entirely dissimilar to them selling the GT tail light molds (which were subsequently lost).

GM....what could have been with these cars. A Sky with an upgraded interior and a next-gen Ecotec...
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Report this Post03-07-2017 07:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lorennerol:


My garage holds two fantastic two-seat sports cars built by GM. The Fiero lasted 4.5 years. The Saturn Sky lasted three. Both died, in part (but not entirely), due to corner cutting that caused owner headaches. In a world where Mazda has been pumping out and selling Miatas for two decades, the sales issues both had weren't, in my opinion, inevitable.

Oh, and GM scrapped the hydro-forming dies for the Sky hood. Not entirely dissimilar to them selling the GT tail light molds (which were subsequently lost).

GM....what could have been with these cars. A Sky with an upgraded interior and a next-gen Ecotec...


The Saturn connection was strictly the use of the plastic body. The Fiero was the test bed for this. In fact the 4 seat Fiero was the start of it all.

As for the Sky. I loved the car but it was build leading into Chapter 11 and Lutz was lucky to even get the car to market.

The real killer was the fact the car was not sold globally. The key to the Mazda is it is sold just about everywhere in the world and you can see it nearly ever country. The Kappa cars were sold here and some limited sales in Europe and very limited in Korea.

Most low price two seat cars never live past 10-15 years as development cost are high and the volumes are very low so profits are limited.

The Miata with global sales can get away with selling 10K cars per market and sell 50K a year as just in America they only average yearly 12K-18k cars over a body style run. Even then they had to sell the new platform to Fiat to screw up and use as their own. If not for that there was a big change it may have gone away.

To be honest the Fiero even if not canceled may not have live more than 5 years more even in the best of conditions. The Kappas even if Saturn had lived as with Pontiac the twins had little future due to the few markets and the low volumes they were sold in. Economics are just tough on low price low volume sports cars.

This is why most 2 seat sports cars are so expensive as that is the only real way to keep them alive and profitable.

Number one rule on low price sports cars. If you want one get one soon as 5-10 years odds are it will be gone.

Also with the Saturn the plastic panels are not just for them. GM used them on several other models in full or limited use. Things did not go as well and they scrapped the program and returned to steel and aluminum.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 03-07-2017).]

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Report this Post03-07-2017 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It looks like the 93 Camaro / Firebird got its roof from the GM80 - and the Saturn got most everything below the roof, visually at least.

Good points hyperv6 about numbers, talking Fiero / Miata.

Annual sales figures for the Mazda MX-5 Miata in the US.
2016 9,465
2015 8,591
2014 4,745
2013 5,780
2012 6,305
2011 5,674
2010 6,370
2009 7,917
2008 10,977
2007 15,075
2006 16,897
2005 9,801
2004 9,356
2003 10,920
2002 14,392
2001 16,486
2000 18,299
1999 17,738
1998 19,845
1997 17,218
1996 18,408
1995 20,174
1994 21,400
1993 21,588
1992 24,964
1991 31,240
1990 35,944
1989 23,052
1988 0

PONTIAC FIERO NUMBERS YEAR TOTAL:
1984 136,840
1985 76,371
1986 83,974
1987 46,581
1988 26,401
TOTAL 370,167

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Report this Post03-07-2017 12:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lorennerolSend a Private Message to lorennerolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
The Saturn connection was strictly the use of the plastic body.


I knew that's what you meant, just couldn't resist tossing in some other similarities. Speaking of which...

 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
As for the Sky. I loved the car but it was build leading into Chapter 11 and Lutz was lucky to even get the car to market.


This also fits: "...and Hulki was lucky to even get the car to market."

But I don't think anyone at GM considered bankruptcy a real possibility when the Kappa production was green lighted in 2004ish.

Kappa (Solstice, Sky, G2X, Opel GT) production:

2006: 21,273 (Solstice only)
2007: 42,950 (Sky, G2X, Opel GT come online, along with the GXP and Redline models with the 2.0 turbo)
2008: 34,100
2009: 9,305 (production ceased in July 2009)
2010: 30 (a handful of 2010s were assembled and later auctioned during the bankruptcy)

I don't think it was Chapter 11 as much as it was the implosion of the economy that did in the car. It was bad...really bad from the September 2008 collapse of Lehman Brothers and the ensuing chaos...a lot of people lost their homes and few had the disposable income required for a car like a Kappa: Two seats and almost no trunk- the Fiero is more practical.

Coincidentally, the plunge in calendar year 2008 Kappa production started one month after the Lehman collapse: In November 2008, 0 (zero) Kappas were built. Same with Jan and Feb of 2009. The Wilmington factory never got back to full time, though there was a bit of a surge from March until July (1/4 to 1/3 of previous monthly production) as the rumors started flying that the previous plan to move Gen II of the car to the Bowling Green Corvette plant had been scrapped along with the entire platform- people who had been sitting on the fence got in.

Regardless, I'm glad to have both in my garage.
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Report this Post03-07-2017 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

It looks like the 93 Camaro / Firebird got its roof from the GM80 - and the Saturn got most everything below the roof, visually at least.

Good points hyperv6 about numbers, talking Fiero / Miata.

Annual sales figures for the Mazda MX-5 Miata in the US.
2016 9,465
2015 8,591
2014 4,745
2013 5,780
2012 6,305
2011 5,674
2010 6,370
2009 7,917
2008 10,977
2007 15,075
2006 16,897
2005 9,801
2004 9,356
2003 10,920
2002 14,392
2001 16,486
2000 18,299
1999 17,738
1998 19,845
1997 17,218
1996 18,408
1995 20,174
1994 21,400
1993 21,588
1992 24,964
1991 31,240
1990 35,944
1989 23,052
1988 0

PONTIAC FIERO NUMBERS YEAR TOTAL:
1984 136,840
1985 76,371
1986 83,974
1987 46,581
1988 26,401
TOTAL 370,167


Those are only the numbers in North America. You get the numbers globally and you will see where the volume is to cover them. Japan and Europe account for much as does the Middle East and Australia. There are a number of South American sales and the big one China.

Take all these markets and add them up and you will find a good number of cars. But even with that number development cost are high.

Just look at the RX7 and MR2. They both had short lives for the most part. The MR2 Died twice. The Honda roadster only lasted how many years?

To be honest the Corvette has been on the bubble several times and was saved. Once it was canceled in the early 90's and only for the manger that ignored the order to kill it is what kept it alive. He paid for it with his future at GM as he never went anywhere after that.

This is why the Corvette people worried about the Fiero as even the small sales it may have taken may have been enough to kill their car.

As for the styling there was much more to it than shown here. The cars really had more styling to them. Some of it was used on the last restyle of the last 3th gen Bird and Formula. They took some of it from a AWD GTO show car that was only shown once. Rumors are it is still in the tech center but no photos have been seen since it was shown in the early 90's. It was canceled by then.

The truth is the 1990 Fiero shared more with the 5th Gen F body than any thing. Take a profile photo of each and you can see they just upsized the car to fit the F body platform.

Might also note the dash gauge panel is almost identical to the F body.

Also the 4th Gen got plastic doors and fenders along with a halo.

There is just so much to this and so many people have never connected the dots.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 03-07-2017).]

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Report this Post03-07-2017 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lorennerol:


This also fits: "...and Hulki was lucky to even get the car to market."

But I don't think anyone at GM considered bankruptcy a real possibility when the Kappa production was green lighted in 2004ish.

Kappa (Solstice, Sky, G2X, Opel GT) production:

2006: 21,273 (Solstice only)
2007: 42,950 (Sky, G2X, Opel GT come online, along with the GXP and Redline models with the 2.0 turbo)
2008: 34,100
2009: 9,305 (production ceased in July 2009)
2010: 30 (a handful of 2010s were assembled and later auctioned during the bankruptcy)

I don't think it was Chapter 11 as much as it was the implosion of the economy that did in the car. It was bad...really bad from the September 2008 collapse of Lehman Brothers and the ensuing chaos...a lot of people lost their homes and few had the disposable income required for a car like a Kappa: Two seats and almost no trunk- the Fiero is more practical.

Coincidentally, the plunge in calendar year 2008 Kappa production started one month after the Lehman collapse: In November 2008, 0 (zero) Kappas were built. Same with Jan and Feb of 2009. The Wilmington factory never got back to full time, though there was a bit of a surge from March until July (1/4 to 1/3 of previous monthly production) as the rumors started flying that the previous plan to move Gen II of the car to the Bowling Green Corvette plant had been scrapped along with the entire platform- people who had been sitting on the fence got in.

Regardless, I'm glad to have both in my garage.


Here is what happened to the Kappa.

Lutz arrived and was given the task to fix GM. Well they told him to do it but you have no money to fix it. He looks at Pontiac and here is a Performance division with no RWD performance car????

So since he had no money the Monaro was his only option for a GTO. His hope was to buy time with it as they worked on the Alpha Camaro and he planned to use it for a longer wheel base GTO.

The truth was they had so little money the hood scoops and true duel exhaust on each side had to wait as there was no money for it.

The Kappa was born much like the Fiero and a parts bin. They had much better parts but many compromises had to happen. Also they tried to keep to the show car as much as they could. That is a mixed blessing as while it looks great it also makes for a car often with issues compromised by the stying. It was heavy and no trunk. The interior was small but it looked stunning.

As for the economy for sure it was part of the issue but so were the compromises of the car. Also the reality was GM knew they were going broke but they hoped to delay it till the bank crisis pretty much pushed them over the edge. They hoped that the new products would help secure loans like Ford got but by the time they needed the money the banks had no money to loan hence the bail out.

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Report this Post03-08-2017 09:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


Those are only the numbers in North America. You get the numbers globally and you will see where the volume is to cover them. Japan and Europe account for much as does the Middle East and Australia. There are a number of South American sales and the big one China.




Yep since Fiero was America sold I figured that list is apples to apples, showing Fiero did well.
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Report this Post03-08-2017 08:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Yep since Fiero was America sold I figured that list is apples to apples, showing Fiero did well.


The problem is they did too well.

They over sold the car and as sales dropped to about where they needed to be the lack of a sister car in the plant kiled them.

Pontiac took a risk to build the Fiero in the plant before a second car was available. To make the plant viable they over sold the car. Then sales dropped.

Even with the second gen sales would continue to decline as they flooded the market with a two seat car that most people drove only on weekends. Most people for one can not live with a daily 2 seat driver so it is a third car. This means they have a low mile car in the garage and few will trade it for a new model. So the primary market would have been saturated.

Some of the GM people I know have said that many inside Pontiac really did not think the Fiero would live forever but they were willing to take the chance. We must remember at this time Pontiac was in worse shape than Olds and was in risk of being removed.

So taking the chance was worth it. The Fiero many at GM feel was responsible for pulling people into Pontiac dealers and helping get the Grand Am discovered that really saved Pontiac where as Olds died from that point on with the loss of the RWD Cutlass.

It is a lot of economics of scale deals here and GM was failing for a long time in many ways. The Fiero is a time capsule of many of the things GM was doing right and what they were doing wrong. Their divisions were their worst enemies not Honda and Ford.
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Report this Post03-11-2017 01:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroLostSend a Private Message to FieroLostEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Gentlemen, the definitive story has already been written, in the top selling book "Crash, the rise and fall of the American Automotive Industry", by Paul Ingrassia of the Wall Street Journal. In fact he dedicated a whole chapter to the Fiero. All of your theories are presented and somewhat validated. The facts and documentation are presented, you can read most of the chapter for free on GoogleBooks. Its demise was a failure of management ineptitude and division infighting, market limitations (economy driven), poor quality control and strained labor relations. Everything was put in context in the book.
Sitting together with your knowledgeable friends, lamenting the demise of the Fiero, without the documentation to back up your theory, only provides a fictional story. Possibly true, but unverifiable. Paul Ingrassia is an automotive business journalist who had the first hand accounts from the players at the time, from management, engineers, designers, and blue collar workers and leaders, about what transpired to bring down the Fiero.
All of your theories are addressed in that chapter, and put into perspective correctly. I have the book and it is riveting.
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Report this Post03-11-2017 09:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroLost:

Gentlemen, the definitive story has already been written, in the top selling book "Crash, the rise and fall of the American Automotive Industry", by Paul Ingrassia of the Wall Street Journal. In fact he dedicated a whole chapter to the Fiero. All of your theories are presented and somewhat validated. The facts and documentation are presented, you can read most of the chapter for free on GoogleBooks. Its demise was a failure of management ineptitude and division infighting, market limitations (economy driven), poor quality control and strained labor relations. Everything was put in context in the book.
Sitting together with your knowledgeable friends, lamenting the demise of the Fiero, without the documentation to back up your theory, only provides a fictional story. Possibly true, but unverifiable. Paul Ingrassia is an automotive business journalist who had the first hand accounts from the players at the time, from management, engineers, designers, and blue collar workers and leaders, about what transpired to bring down the Fiero.
All of your theories are addressed in that chapter, and put into perspective correctly. I have the book and it is riveting.



I am well aware of the book and it is a very good read and t more of the internal story of the car but it only covers some of the whole story. There is still much more to it than the limited space it was given in the book.

Note I would like to get Fred and Ron involved as the three of us have spoke to most main players and have documented the history. This would not be a theory piece but one brought from the many we have spoken to and can speak to again.

Note Fred has recorded many interviews. That being said it is key the right people are involved in this to get the story straight.

Note I do also recommend the book you speak of as it goes farther than most but it like others still falls short of a complete history. That book is only a couple chapters of a complete history.
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Report this Post03-11-2017 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroLostSend a Private Message to FieroLostEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The other book dearest to our heart,

Fiero: Pontiac's Potent Mid Engine Sports Car Hardcover – September, 1987
by Gary Witzenburg (Author)

details the making from beginning to end the Fiero. I'm just skeptical ( though I'm interested ) about what your story could tell, that would be proved factual. Face it, the Fiero was doomed based on the facts as spelled out in Paul Ingrassia's book, was never going to be resurrected or saved. GM was in the business of "making money not cars", and the same goes for all car companies then and now (sadly because of poor executive, were losing money to the tune of billions of dollars annually throughout the 80's). Quotes and interviews from lower level managers and engineers is now just opinion or gossip.

Furthermore, Chevrolet was never going to allow sales of the Corvette and Camaro, to be further eroded by the Fiero, All sports performance cars of that era saw huge drops in sales, the Corvette and the MR2 had less than 20,00 produced in 1988. But, the Toyota MR2 production was exponentially more efficient (and actually made money), and GM could not absorb losses from 2 or 3 competing products within its own organization. Even had the Fiero been a raging success (which it was, except for it's defeating and ultimately death defying warranty claims), the GM and American Automotive Systems cannot absorb 2, 3 or 4 models of 20,000 annual production cars competing against one another with profit margins so slim. This is well documented too. All of the decision makers, from the board room to the executives, have been interviewed first and secondhand, and the Fiero's demise was substantiated based on Ingrassia's rigorous journalistic investigation (he connected the dots, irrefutable). The design and production engineers at mid and lower levels were neutered from interfering in management decision making, and always have been. Quotes and interviews from lower level managers and engineers is just opinion or gossip, does not make what they say true, and will only add to the many myths. Your beating a dead horse. Your story will only be an interesting read, propagating innuendo that cannot undo the facts.

Yet, I can't wait to hear what you have to say

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Report this Post03-11-2017 07:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by FieroLost:

The other book dearest to our heart,

Fiero: Pontiac's Potent Mid Engine Sports Car Hardcover – September, 1987
by Gary Witzenburg (Author)

details the making from beginning to end the Fiero. I'm just skeptical ( though I'm interested ) about what your story could tell, that would be proved factual. Face it, the Fiero was doomed based on the facts as spelled out in Paul Ingrassia's book, was never going to be resurrected or saved. GM was in the business of "making money not cars", and the same goes for all car companies then and now (sadly because of poor executive, were losing money to the tune of billions of dollars annually throughout the 80's). Quotes and interviews from lower level managers and engineers is now just opinion or gossip.

Furthermore, Chevrolet was never going to allow sales of the Corvette and Camaro, to be further eroded by the Fiero, All sports performance cars of that era saw huge drops in sales, the Corvette and the MR2 had less than 20,00 produced in 1988. But, the Toyota MR2 production was exponentially more efficient (and actually made money), and GM could not absorb losses from 2 or 3 competing products within its own organization. Even had the Fiero been a raging success (which it was, except for it's defeating and ultimately death defying warranty claims), the GM and American Automotive Systems cannot absorb 2, 3 or 4 models of 20,000 annual production cars competing against one another with profit margins so slim. This is well documented too. All of the decision makers, from the board room to the executives, have been interviewed first and secondhand, and the Fiero's demise was substantiated based on Ingrassia's rigorous journalistic investigation (he connected the dots, irrefutable). The design and production engineers at mid and lower levels were neutered from interfering in management decision making, and always have been. Quotes and interviews from lower level managers and engineers is just opinion or gossip, does not make what they say true, and will only add to the many myths. Your beating a dead horse. Your story will only be an interesting read, propagating innuendo that cannot undo the facts.

Yet, I can't wait to hear what you have to say


Lost I am not so sure why you are so bent on picking a fight here? With 18 post you may not really know the back ground of the people I stated I wanted in on this project.

Garys book is good as it covers many details but keep in mind it was a book that was the sanitized version according to GM. Hence none of the dirt. Gary had done many books for GM and they are all very interesting but all were to the degree GM wanted. Note Gary was employed by GM as was his wife so he only wrote what they wanted stated.

As for Ingrassia's book I agree most of what you post is true but there were even more dirty details that were left out such as the cancellation of the GM 80 and how Chevy used it as leverage to kill the car. Pauls info is spot on but it is limited as it is only a small part of a very good book.

As for the people I want involved yes they have spoken to the mid level people but people like Fred had spent time with all the main players and gathered the info first hand. He knew Hulki well and also the other main players. He is still in touch with many and he is the best Fiero Historian there is.

Paul also is from Michigan and knew many of the people. As for me I have been lucky to meet and hear many speak first hand. I also have collected documents since the late 70's on the car as well investigated prototype Fiero parts some that I own and have gotten to meet some of the people left over from the original program. One let me read the documents from meeting where they canceled the car. So this is not just here say and opinion. The point of getting a good core group is to provide info that will prevent any more poor info going out as all of us have worked hard to gather info to prevent anymore false storys. God knows we all cringe every time the Lotus fable comes up.

As of now I am trying to get info from Tom Goad the suspension guy. I saw a while back in an interview with him he stated the suspension was all GM design and how proud they were of it. He did say that they did turn the tuning of the second gen suspension over to Porsche Engineering. He stated that they worked on the turn in and scrub radius to tune the feel into the car. GM knew Porsche was good at this since the 911 had a good feel and no power steering. Porsche Engineering did much outside work such as Lotus did for other companies.

Also you may note in Garys book he states about the Porsche Eater 2.9 Turbo cars. They both has Porsche Eater in the tail lamps when the brakes lights came on. They were forced to remove them because according to Gary Porsche was doing some work for GM. Now if you take the time line of the second gen suspension and car it was well in the works by 85-86 and the time line fits the Porsche eater cars. I also can verify based on my engineering prints on a 1990 part the work was well under way in 1985.

Also note that they were working on plastic wheels for the car. In some clay models you can see they had the wheels on the car. They were the silver wheels not the gold. Yes they were plastic as Fred has one of only a couple still around. I am working to get more info on them from someone I know that was directly involved with the wheels.

So lost I really don't have to justify anything to you as we are people that have been at this for more years than the car has been around. I bought my car in 85 and still have it. I also have all the info I collected leading up to the car over the years. I also have accumulated much more since.

The deal with this story is so many things were going on at so many levels it is amazing the car ever got built and with what happened it is no surprise it died. Getting the details that we have learned into a data base where it can be looked at and shared will keep the full story intact vs. just a chapter or two in a good book but one that only covers the high spots.

There are other books and interview in publication I own that also lend to the story.

Dave McLellans book Inside the Corvette he detals the dealing on the mid engine Vette in the 70's. He also shares how the one proposal that was done in the tech center for a mid engine car was turned down by the Vette team but was later offered to Hulki to use and improve.

The puzzle pieces are out there and we can and should put them into one place.

All that you state here is what we already know but inside GM there was many a political infighting and while we know why things happened it was done in channels in much different ways. Pontiac fought back but Losh the new head of Pontiac really did not care.

As stated I have been told by a few they did not expect the car to last long.

The key is it keep Pontiac alive and helped as part of their return to popularity in the 80's and 90's. The car did its job till Pontiac was mismanaged back into cancellation due to no global market and at the end few real performance cars for a division that claimed performance.

There is just too much to cover here.

You can be skeptical if you like but many here can vouch for those I have named that I would like involved. They are well known and as well informed. Even more than some that worked on the program as many have forgotten much as it was just another job for them not a study.

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Report this Post03-12-2017 12:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroLostSend a Private Message to FieroLostEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hyperv6 With all due respect, it is not my intent to pick a fight. I believe skepticism is healthy, I have an opinion, I too am informed, and don't feel that I have to post incessantly to achieve cred on this forum. Yet, I applaud your intent to provide more on the history of the Fiero...how strange is that? In fact, I stated I'm looking forward to what you and the other respected members have to say about the demise of the Fiero.

There is no need for you to get your back up. And yes you don't need to justify or seek my approval to get your story out. Carry on.

But, because someone may be a relatively new registered User, should not imply that one has not used the resources available or followed intently the many interesting threads on this forum prior. I have followed Pennocks since the very early days, and have been a Fiero owner since 1986, having owned 6 in total, and currently own a stock 86GT and a modified 88GT 3800SC 5-speed. Both are showroom mint condition examples of Fieros that were, and could have been. My enthusiasm and admiration for Hulki and what his team achieved in the Fiero is unwaivering.

I too have friends, retired engineers (in fact one was a good friend of one of John DeLoreans brothers) from GM, who acknowledge that Paul Ingrassia's book is the definitive synopsis, unfiltered, of what transpired at GM during the time that included the Fiero story..

My intent writing here was to bring to the attention of the readers of this forum the existence and importance of the book Comeback, The Fall and Rise of the American Automobile Industry, copyrighted 1994. Most everything that you just spoke of is in the book, a book you failed to mention or acknowledge until I brought it to light. Because, what you present can only be an addendum to this book, seeing as you indicate having supporting documentation. I mean no disrespect to you or your cohorts, just wanting to point out that It was this book that exposed in detail the problems at GM.

Your anecdotes and historical artifacts intrigue me, as already you have outlined some interesting tidbits that do need to be corroborated and collated to add to the historical data regarding the Fiero. The infighting and mismanagement was well known and has been documented, and I am again, looking forward to what you have to add that might elaborate further on the discourse prevalent throughout GM at the time.
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Report this Post03-12-2017 07:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroLost:

Hyperv6 With all due respect, it is not my intent to pick a fight. I believe skepticism is healthy, I have an opinion, I too am informed, and don't feel that I have to post incessantly to achieve cred on this forum. Yet, I applaud your intent to provide more on the history of the Fiero...how strange is that? In fact, I stated I'm looking forward to what you and the other respected members have to say about the demise of the Fiero.

There is no need for you to get your back up. And yes you don't need to justify or seek my approval to get your story out. Carry on.

But, because someone may be a relatively new registered User, should not imply that one has not used the resources available or followed intently the many interesting threads on this forum prior. I have followed Pennocks since the very early days, and have been a Fiero owner since 1986, having owned 6 in total, and currently own a stock 86GT and a modified 88GT 3800SC 5-speed. Both are showroom mint condition examples of Fieros that were, and could have been. My enthusiasm and admiration for Hulki and what his team achieved in the Fiero is unwaivering.

I too have friends, retired engineers (in fact one was a good friend of one of John DeLoreans brothers) from GM, who acknowledge that Paul Ingrassia's book is the definitive synopsis, unfiltered, of what transpired at GM during the time that included the Fiero story..

My intent writing here was to bring to the attention of the readers of this forum the existence and importance of the book Comeback, The Fall and Rise of the American Automobile Industry, copyrighted 1994. Most everything that you just spoke of is in the book, a book you failed to mention or acknowledge until I brought it to light. Because, what you present can only be an addendum to this book, seeing as you indicate having supporting documentation. I mean no disrespect to you or your cohorts, just wanting to point out that It was this book that exposed in detail the problems at GM.

Your anecdotes and historical artifacts intrigue me, as already you have outlined some interesting tidbits that do need to be corroborated and collated to add to the historical data regarding the Fiero. The infighting and mismanagement was well known and has been documented, and I am again, looking forward to what you have to add that might elaborate further on the discourse prevalent throughout GM at the time.


Sorry but the couple chapters as accurate as they are do not cover the whole story. You may be fine with the readers digest version but I am not. As for the people I want involved there reputations are beyon question when it come to the car. Question as you like but I would stand behind the info.

As for you you may know things but then again you remain a unknown with only a couple chapters.
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Report this Post03-12-2017 10:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero ViceSend a Private Message to Fiero ViceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hyperv6,

Interesting! What you have said makes sense! I cannot wait until the whole story is completed so I can read it.

If you have drafts that you could share, I'd love to read it.
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Report this Post03-13-2017 06:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Fiero Vice:

Hyperv6,

Interesting! What you have said makes sense! I cannot wait until the whole story is completed so I can read it.

If you have drafts that you could share, I'd love to read it.


No drafts yet I have just been working to get the others on board. I have part of the documentation to reference but the others have much more and to do this right I can not do it alone. We each have collected material and it needs to all be put together to make for a compete story.

I don't see anyone getting a book made as it is difficult even for a real author and often not much money in it to help get it done. I have spoken to several Pontiac authors and most have been reluctant to take on this story.

I know the others have busy lives but I would be willing to do the bulk of the writing just to even get it put on line somewhere save to where it is available to read and used as a point of reference.

I am no Mark Twain but I have written many stories and even got paid for them in some magazines over the years. I think I could get it put together. At least I would give it a try and qualified help would always be welcomed.

The bottom line we just need to get all the info out there.

I have considered even just doing a list of facts and answers to many myths. Just something to get the complete truth and little known facts out. I just worry if it is not done now much of this info could be lost.

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Report this Post03-14-2017 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero ViceSend a Private Message to Fiero ViceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can’t believe no Pontiac authors wouldn’t touch this story. It's a fantastic story to read from all sides. Also, I’m sure it would make a great study case for business schools.

I’m also no writer either, only specialist in taxes, accounting, finance & investment.

I hope someone can push this thru. I would hate to see all those information get lost too.

Have you tried other auto authors? There has to be someone who would be willing to take on this project.

A list of facts & answers is a good start, but would it leave out a lot of information?

I agree we need to get all the information out there! Now is the time! We gotta make it happen!
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Report this Post03-14-2017 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Fiero Vice:

I can’t believe no Pontiac authors wouldn’t touch this story. It's a fantastic story to read from all sides. Also, I’m sure it would make a great study case for business schools.

I’m also no writer either, only specialist in taxes, accounting, finance & investment.

I hope someone can push this thru. I would hate to see all those information get lost too.

Have you tried other auto authors? There has to be someone who would be willing to take on this project.

A list of facts & answers is a good start, but would it leave out a lot of information?

I agree we need to get all the information out there! Now is the time! We gotta make it happen!


I have spoken to several and most are reluctant.

Writing a book today that is not a tell all of someone famous is basically a labor of love. Generally it takes a lot of time and investment and there is little return for the author.

Don Keefe just put out a Pontiac book and much of it is older HPP magazine Project X storied. It is a great book but one he wrote one car at a time over years. But he still has to Hussel and promote it selling it at many events even though it is in stores. The publisher gets most of the reward.

I really thing a publisher would love the story as a case study of what was wrong at GM on many levels. Also it can show what was right but overshadowed at GM.

Either way the info needs to be disseminated somewhere that it can be used as a reference.

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Report this Post03-15-2017 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

I have considered even just doing a list of facts and answers to many myths. Just something to get the complete truth and little known facts out. I just worry if it is not done now much of this info could be lost.
...
Either way the info needs to be disseminated somewhere that it can be used as a reference.


I agree.
As for peoples reluctance in writing a book I would think even after data, facts and knowledge are compiled and hashed out a book is still years out. I wouldn't worry about a book at this point. The knowledge documented is important though.
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Report this Post03-15-2017 01:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

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quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

As for the people I want involved yes they have spoken to the mid level people but people like Fred had spent time with all the main players and gathered the info first hand. He knew Hulki well and also the other main players. He is still in touch with many and he is the best Fiero Historian there is.



I agree.
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