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A list of Fiero truths for your amusment by cvxjet
Started on: 01-26-2017 10:57 PM
Replies: 26 (759 views)
Last post by: hyperv6 on 01-31-2017 12:05 AM
cvxjet
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Report this Post01-26-2017 10:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I run into a lot of people who ask if my Fiero has burst into flames lately, how can I keep that pile-o-junk running, etc....So I have decided to type up a truth page for us to print out and carry in the car....At car shows, at least, put it in the window so maybe some people will actually know the truth about our car.

So the Fiero has a really bad reputation with most car nuts......some of it is deserved....but a lot of it is misconceptions.

Number 1; The Fiero is a parts bin car....Well, yes and no.....Yes, it had suspension pieces from the Citation and the Chevette, but it was built as an affordable car...Quickly developing a clean-sheet design is very expensive...My 1985 SE V6 cost $12,000.....half the price of a Vette.....For $24,000 they could have built a full-on exotic....But I would not have been able to afford it.....oh, and the Chevette spindle(The main functional piece of the front suspension) was also used on Lotus Esprits......I don't see anyone complaining about how that car handles......

Number 2; The Fiero is a big old pile-o-crap American car.....No. It is not; the Fiero had very high quality for the time...and there is a reason for this; It was the first American car built under the Deming TQM process. Who is this Deming guy? He is the AMERICAN who taught the Japanese quality control- YES! an >AMERICAN< taught the Japanese about quality....They actually have a "Deming award"...And all cars- Honda, Toyota, GM and Ford, are built under some version of the TQM process.

Number 3; The Fiero is a death trap that catches fire at the drop of your keys! Wrong in so many ways! The NHTSA has tested the Fiero and it basically is one of the safest cars ever built- it's roll over and side impact strength is still better than the standards we have TODAY...>30 years< after it was designed! As for the fire problem, it is true that 5000 of the first year production of 103,000 had the basic flaws that could lead to an engine bay fire; weak rods, small oil capacity and an improperly marked dip stick- They have all been fixed, and while GM has a record of 260 fires, the NHTSA only has 176 listed...and that makes the Fiero's fire record BETTER than the average for all cars (Believe it or not, the PInto actually has a better record, too...But everybody "Knows" American cars are crap, right?

Number 4; The Fiero was an under-performing piss-poor "wanta-be" sports car! The Fiero was the first car to beat the RX-7 in GTU, winning the full title in 1987...and, tho all the magazines tore it up when compared to the MR2, BEFORE the MR2 came out, both R&T and MT raved about the V6 GT in 1985....Their line changed so drastically in later years that it begs the question as to how much money they were receiving from who...? And tho the MR2 was a slightly better light-weight sports car, the Fiero actually compared very favorably to the Nissan 300ZX and the Mazda RX-7...And the magazines never complained about the MR2s DTO until suddenly in 1989, when they started talking about it's dangerous propensity to swap ends if you cut the throttle in a turn.

Number 5; The Fiero is overweight!.......Hmmm, yes, if you compare it to the wil-o-the-wisp MR2, CRX and X1/9, it is heavy......But go get in an accident in one of those cars and let me know how you make out....I have read a few accounts of people getting into bad accidents in Fieros...and they come out basically unscathed....Check out the doors on a 1st gen MR2....I have had trashcan lids that are stronger! The Fiero actually was lighter than the 300ZX and weighed the same as an RX-7...My 1985 SE V6 weighs 2600 lbs....how many cars today weigh only that much? Especially sports cars...And now they all have ALUMINUM engines and suspension arms.

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 01-26-2017).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post01-26-2017 11:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nothing was used on the Lotus.

It was a parts bin car but so were many cars of tha era.

Yes many do complain on the handling of the 84-87 models. They are very prone to understeer and bump steer. Fun to drive for sure but you really have to work for it vs other cars or even the 88.

Not a pile of crap but they did have some major issues. This hurt the rep. Not bad but not perfect.

Fires were over played but the dramatic nature intrigued the media. Oil leaks and plastic bodies are a problem.

It was not under performing for the era but it as not king of the hill. The GTU was a full on race car with only the tail lamps being stock factor pars and the steering wheel. It was a Huffaker racing tube chassis.

It was not light and the other cars were not death traps. But compared to today cars the Fiero is a ultra low weight car. Crash standards today are much greater and it has added a lot of weight.

I would recommend really digging into some of the history and brush up on some info. You have the basics but some details need work. Also there were issues and it is important to learn them and be honest about them. This is important to credibility.

I have been at this for over 30 years and have heard it all.

Like I stated in the other thread the truth i of the Fiero story needs to be told as so few know he gritty details. Much of the story was never told you the public and is very interesting. There are things many would love to hear and there are thing many will hate to hear.
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Report this Post01-27-2017 09:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't get many of those comments anymore. Now I get comments like "you don't see many of those around anymore" or "wow, you put a lot of work into that car".

Maybe people forget? Or maybe it's because my Fiero is so heavily modified, they focus on that. I don't know. But it sure is a relief.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 01-27-2017).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post01-27-2017 10:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I don't get many of those comments anymore. Now I get comments like "you don't see many of those around anymore" or "wow, you put a lot of work into that car".

Maybe people forget? Or maybe it's because my Fiero is so heavily modified, they focus on that. I don't know. But it sure is a relief.



There are some that still have some odd wrong ideas but nothing like it used to be.

When I bought my car new I was a superstar. You got all sorts of attention and became a celebrity where ever you went. Then it turned dark with lots of hate and misguided ideas.

As time has gone on most people are cool again. They will tell you I used to have one or I always wanted one. You get one nut job now and then but they get in their gutted Honda and leave soon after.

That is one thing most long term Fiero owners can say many other collector car owners can not say. Owning the Fiero has brought a full spectrum of angulation and abuse few other owners ever experience.

Pontiac Builds Excitement!
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sardonyx247
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Report this Post01-27-2017 11:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes it used Citation parts, BUT they were Citation X-11 parts. The race version of the Citation.

You can add another to the fire count, I/My mom had an 84 catch fire, tried to drive it self away on fire, and burnt to the ground. With all the power wires coming off the starter and with the exhaust wraping around them, they melted together caught fire and engaged the starter.

I NEVER heard once the Fiero was overweight, I ALWAYS heard the opposite from onlookers.

Again the whole Lotus thing is a myth.

Edit to add: You can add that the real Indy had the fastest lap times to date (in 84) beating out cars like the Crovette

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 01-27-2017).]

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Report this Post01-27-2017 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ummmm....The first gen Lotus Esprit used an Opel upright.....The Chevette was/is an Opel....The two spindles are the same.....The big difference between the Fiero and the Esprit is that a company that knew what it was doing TUNED the suspension of the Esprit.

Quotes from Wiki; "The front suspension of the S1 and S2(Esprit) came from the Opel Ascona." "The original Esprit was lauded for its handling and is said to have the best steering of any Esprit."

All of the car mags back in the 80s compared the Fiero to the X1/9 and proclaimed it "Overweight"....One magazine actually claimed that if the Japanese made a mid-engined car theirs would be 400 lbs lighter.....The MR2 came out the next year and was 200 lbs lighter but did not have the straight-line performance of the V6 Fiero.

And 2 out of 3 people who say anything about my Fiero(Even now) say they are a fire hazard.

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 01-27-2017).]

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Report this Post01-27-2017 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As with many of their cars, Lotus used parts from other cars to cut down development costs. Esprits before 1993 have many British Leyland parts and after 1993 have many GM (Vauxhall, Opel) parts. G Esprits have Citroën gearboxes as found in the Citroën SM and Maserati Merak, while S Esprits have Renault UN1 gearboxes, with the exception of the North American Esprit Turbo which retained the Citroen gearbox for 1988 only.[40] The door handles come from Morris Marina / Austin Allegro and were kept until the S4 model in 1994 when instead GM Calibra door handles were used. Early models used a Momo steering wheel, later ones had the same as the Pontiac Trans Am. S1 Esprits have Fiat X1/9 rear light units. S2 and S3 Esprit used Rover SD1 rear light units. On Esprit S4 until 2002 it had rectangular rear lights borrowed from the Toyota AE86, later replaced with the same round light as the Lotus Elise II. Headlight lift motors came from the Pontiac Fiero. The aerial mount and whip on the S4 and V8 is the same as the GM Calibra and Tigra. The side mirrors are from the Citroën CX. Non SE foglamps from about 1989 are GM Astra MK1. The fan motors come from the Ford Fiesta Mk2. The alternator on the V8 models is a standard GM unit also found in the V6 Opel Omega B and the earlier Lotus Carlton/Omega which also provides many of the interior plastic fittings such as door handles and steering column. The clutch slave cylinder on the 98 onwards models is the same as a series 2A Land Rover from Girling as is the master cylinder.[41] The front suspension of the S1 and S2 came from the Opel Ascona. Front GT3 Brake Pads (Brembo) are the same as on a Fiat Coupe turbo or a Peugeot 406 3.0 V6. The Fuel Pump of SE is salvaged from Renault Fuego cars

Double wishbones were used at the front, which was based on Opel Ascona parts. From the start. This was a J platform not a T Chevette Or Kadett platform. Not the same as the Fiero. Also the T platform was a Opel but also Isuzu platform too.

There was as listed above later on the Lotus did use the Fiero motors for the lamps as did the later TA.

The Fiero as I pointed out is not over weight. Back then yes there were lighter cars but today as we look back it was a light car and not heavy considering what it was.

As for fire hazard that may be where you live and or your car. Today many people never bring it up anymore.

The Lotus over its history used many different parts from many cars and the later ones used many GM parts since they were owned by GM at the time.
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Report this Post01-27-2017 01:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

Yes it used Citation parts, BUT they were Citation X-11 parts. The race version of the Citation.

You can add another to the fire count, I/My mom had an 84 catch fire, tried to drive it self away on fire, and burnt to the ground. With all the power wires coming off the starter and with the exhaust wraping around them, they melted together caught fire and engaged the starter.

I NEVER heard once the Fiero was overweight, I ALWAYS heard the opposite from onlookers.

Again the whole Lotus thing is a myth.

Edit to add: You can add that the real Indy had the fastest lap times to date (in 84) beating out cars like the Crovette



The Citation parts were not really race. They were offered in the Chevy Performance book and were called the HO heads and cam. They were a little larger valves and a little better cam. I would call it a performance part but not race.

They did offer a 2.8 Aluminum block and heads at one time but most were used in sprint cars as they were light but every expensive.

The Lotus had nothing to do with the Fiero but it is interesting that there was another automaker that did.

Tom Goad the GM Pontiac suspension engineer and racer did claim in an interview that Porsche Engineering did do the tuning on the 88 Front suspension. He said GM designed the suspension but Porsche did tune the turn in and scrub radius for feel for GM.

Note too at that time Pontiac had two Turbo 2.9 Fiero's that had tail lights that lit up to say Porsche Eater. It is reported back then that Pontiac had to remove the lights because GM was doing work with Porsche. This is in the Fiero book. Gary never said what they were doing but they were tuning the 88 suspension in 1985.

There also was work at the time on plastic composite wheels. They were looking to them in 16" for the new suspension but the program was killed in 1985. I never got why but they were not light and I assume the expense may not have been cheap either.

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Report this Post01-27-2017 01:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A little more acceptance of the Fiero by GM management and the development could of led to so many innovations...and a much better car. Any time a new platform comes out, it takes time to figure out it's strengths and weaknesses....

A lot of people don't understand the importance of chassis tuning, nor how the different parts interact; I was a Mustang fanatic in HS and so basically found out about this early on; The Shelby mod- where the upper A-Arm inner mounting point was lowered 1" to create better geometry was simply amazing...The change in the car's dynamics from a few hours with some wrenches and a drill were all out of proportion....And this is one of the few things I find admirable about Porsche....Although I never have liked the rear engine 911, they have worked and changed every part on the car at one time or another to improve and tune it...The biggest innovation was the "Weissach axle" rear suspension- instead of trying to just eliminate unwanted deflection, you make deflection work FOR YOU......Brilliant!
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Report this Post01-27-2017 02:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

A little more acceptance of the Fiero by GM management and the development could of led to so many innovations...and a much better car. Any time a new platform comes out, it takes time to figure out it's strengths and weaknesses....

A lot of people don't understand the importance of chassis tuning, nor how the different parts interact; I was a Mustang fanatic in HS and so basically found out about this early on; The Shelby mod- where the upper A-Arm inner mounting point was lowered 1" to create better geometry was simply amazing...The change in the car's dynamics from a few hours with some wrenches and a drill were all out of proportion....And this is one of the few things I find admirable about Porsche....Although I never have liked the rear engine 911, they have worked and changed every part on the car at one time or another to improve and tune it...The biggest innovation was the "Weissach axle" rear suspension- instead of trying to just eliminate unwanted deflection, you make deflection work FOR YOU......Brilliant!


The 88 suspension was what they wanted in the first place and was in the works before they even released the 84 model. GM should have better funded them but they didn't and the toxic culture inside GM was apart of that. Chevy wanted the most rule and Pontiac fought for everything they got. This was nothing new as it went back to the 60's.

Even if they had the right suspension Pontiac made a fatal error too. The fact was they had put the Fiero in a plant that could build 250K cars a year. Well that was going to be ok as they were working to put the GM 80 platform in the same plant. This was a FWD/AWD F body replacement. This was at the time the Probe was going to be the new Mustang.

With sales of the Fox body still strong the FWD Mustang was moved to be the Probe. Well this set GM to move to cancel the GM80. This left the Fiero plant way under capacity.

The reality was Pontiac over sold the first two years of the Fiero. They had only expected to sell 25K units a year but with it being the only car they had to sell many more to justify the plant till they could get another platforms help.

By 1988 Chevy and Corvette pointed out the plant was way under capacity and unprofitable. Chevy wanted the car killed and no matter what Pontiac offered and plans they had at the last meeting they were dead when they walked in. Mike Losh of Pontiac had just come to lead Pontiac and had no skin in the game and was going to follow GM's orders.

So with nothing for the plant the car really was going to be in trouble as few 2 seat cars sell very long at 25K or more units. There are only so many people in the market for a car with 2 seats and if you flood the market it is hard to continue sales. Mazda sells the Miata globally and limits the sales in each market. Here they sell 12K-18K on average and offer many special paint and trim editions to keep it fresh.

If you look at most 2 seat cars outside the Corvette and Miata most live 10 years or less. They are expensive to update. The profits are low on the low cost low volume models. If they are not sold globally they are difficult to sell in any volume and keep it up over time.

The Corvette is an icon and cult car so they have something most never reach. But cars even like the RX7, MR2 x 2 and Datsun Z cars they all had limited lives.

The Fiero may have gone on to a second gen but with nothing coming to the plant short term kind of sealed its fate.

Now the 1990 Fiero did live on as they needed new styling for a new RWD F body so they used the 1990 Fiero as the basis for the 4th gen F body. They adapted the styling over. John Schinella the lead designer at Pontiac stated the styling was too good to throw away. John also was one of the few who fought for the Fiero from the time it came around to the very bitter end. He I believe still owns his 88 GT.

This was the Readers Digest version of the story as there are many more details to this and side problems that also came in play. But this was the meat and potatoes of what happened.

Even the Solstice was done much like the Miata but even then sales staggered after a couple years and it living on was pretty shaky even if Pontiac had lived.

As for the suspension the original was what it was. They had to work with what they were offered or not build the car. They had intent on what we got in 88 but had to wait for the money to come to finish it. We saw the same thing on the 04 GTO where it lacked a hood scoop and duel exhaust on both sides of the car. They just did not have the money.

What GM did was a great job on the 88 but the other issues were just too much to overcome. Also the Corvette team was in an aging C4 that needed to make a business case like any other car at GM. If sales were lost to Pontiac that could put them on the bubble to kill the car.

What is unknown to many the Corvette was ordered killed by GM in the early 90's. If not for a manager ignoring GM the car would have died. He paid for it with his career but the car is alive today because of him. This story came out just about a year ago. He is seen as a hero in the Corvette community today.

The problem on the FIero 84-87 was the rear control arms would deflect and change the toe out. Also the 84 rear tie rods needed their mounts moved as they did in 1985. This produced the deflection that created bump steer.

The understeer was mostly due to the lack of a rear bar. I have it fixed on my by Pontiac engineer Herb Adams and his sway bars. It only takes a one inch front and 1 1/4 rear at to make it neutral. But it is what it is.

While the Fiero is a fun car to drive it is not an easy car to drive fast over uneven surfaces. A well tuned car you can go fast and it is easy. The 911 is like that as well as my other car where you feel like you are doing 60 MPH and you are really 30 MPH+. Good tuning makes it feel like you are going slower but you are really going faster.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 01-27-2017).]

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Report this Post01-27-2017 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GTGeffSend a Private Message to GTGeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

O'boy another new take on the Lotus suspension that I had never heard.

I thought the whole Lotus suspension issue had been put to bed after Hulki's Q&A at the 20th Anniversary in 2003. They were interested how the Lotus paint jobs were near perfection and they came to find out someone was hand re-finishing.
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Report this Post01-27-2017 02:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for andrewwSend a Private Message to andrewwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All I know is that in all the old car mags I have in my basement and all the 1984 TV reviews of the 84 Fiero that you can find on YouTube, they rave about the handling and praise the power as being very respectable. They didn't start ragging on Fieros until it became cool to do so.
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Report this Post01-27-2017 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by andreww:

All I know is that in all the old car mags I have in my basement and all the 1984 TV reviews of the 84 Fiero that you can find on YouTube, they rave about the handling and praise the power as being very respectable. They didn't start ragging on Fieros until it became cool to do so.


Well you also have to put things into perspective too.

At the time the 1984 Vette had shocks that were so stiff in the Z51 you would lose a filling. The Camaro and Firebird were all sway bar and stiff springs. The Mustang was not yet the handling car it later became.

Also all these cars were thought of as fast but looking back most 4 cylinder basic compact cars today have as much or more power than they had.

We thought we had it good but hind sight is 20/20. The truth is coming out of the late 70's the 80's were an improvement but compared today we have cars that makes anything from the 80's look much weaker than what we originally thought. To be honest what we have today was unthank able back then.

Today I have a Turbo 4 with 300 HP 315 FT LBS and can do 24 PSI on pump gas all day. It is amazing what we have today in the V6 and 8 cylinder cars today too. 600 HP and more is nothing anymore to buy from a dealer.

So while the stories say how well these cars were keep in perspective what we were coming from and what we had before made them shine. Technology has gone much farther and while these older cars are still cool we really have moved on to cars today that are more the equal of what was only a race car in the past.

The early Fiero on a smooth track is ok but a lot of understeer. It was still fun to drive.

Now to the credit of these older cars they are often more fun to drive on street as they have lower limits and are much easier to reach. The new cars today are not much of a challenge to drive on the street as you can not reach the limits on the road with out committing a felony.

Kind of like an old MG. Not the fastest car best handling car but still a blast to drive and at times can be a challenge.
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Report this Post01-27-2017 04:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One thing that I think is missing to some extent today, is economical small sporty cars....Not as small as the Miata, but not as big as the newer 370Z.....A car that you can enjoy driving on a back road without going 80-120 mph. The only car I see fitting in this slot is the BRZ/FR-S twins.....And quite simply, I would say that 75% of drivers on the road should not be on the road....let alone driving 3-500 hp cars. (Whoops! I should have read your whole post Hyper!)

The biggest change I made to my 85 SE V6 was installing the 88 rear suspension.....basically, no more squiggles over dips and such in turns...I also have done some odd things with the stabilizer bars, but most people tell me I don't know what I'm doing. But my car will tear up a parking lot gymkhana.

And the Lotus connection- The Fiero had nothing to do with Lotus..or vice-versa....But the Espirt and the 84-87 Fieros both happen to use the same- basically Opel- front spindle....But the Lotus A-arm geometry was done right while the Fiero was not. When I get time, I plan on lowering the inner mounting point of the upper A-arms.....Same as the Shelby mod for Mustangs- but more involved....Gotta weld in new mounting tubes.....Hopefully I won't burn my garage down.....

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 01-27-2017).]

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Report this Post01-27-2017 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

One thing that I think is missing to some extent today, is economical small sporty cars....Not as small as the Miata, but not as big as the newer 370Z.....A car that you can enjoy driving on a back road without going 80-120 mph. The only car I see fitting in this slot is the BRZ/FR-S twins.....And quite simply, I would say that 75% of drivers on the road should not be on the road....let alone driving 3-500 hp cars. (Whoops! I should have read your whole post Hyper!)

The biggest change I made to my 85 SE V6 was installing the 88 rear suspension.....basically, no more squiggles over dips and such in turns...I also have done some odd things with the stabilizer bars, but most people tell me I don't know what I'm doing. But my car will tear up a parking lot gymkhana.

And the Lotus connection- The Fiero had nothing to do with Lotus..or vice-versa....But the Espirt and the 84-87 Fieros both happen to use the same- basically Opel- front spindle....But the Lotus A-arm geometry was done right while the Fiero was not. When I get time, I plan on lowering the inner mounting point of the upper A-arms.....Same as the Shelby mod for Mustangs- but more involved....Gotta weld in new mounting tubes.....Hopefully I won't burn my garage down.....



Problem today is the cost to develop a rwd coupe like the twins is not cheap. Also the twins. Are and have been a sales disappointment. A Hyundai also has disappointed. Even selling globally they are probably not long for the market.

Even a Ford and GM are moving to send the Mustang and Camaro to overseas markets to keep volume up.

Then cars likable the RS done right can run $42k. In years past a performance model was just a econo car with a Corvette engine. Today it is a complete package of its own and often shares few parts.

Sad but .reality of today market.

Even my HHR SS will drive circles around my Fiero as it is a complete package done right. Even with the fwd.

As for you Lotus claim you are over reaching. Yes the Lotus used a Opel part but not one shared with a Fiero.
Many cars used a similar part but it is still not the same part.

Lotus also came with Goodyear Eagles as did the Fiero but they were not taken from one for the other.

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cvxjet
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Report this Post01-28-2017 12:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Everything I see points to the spindle being the same across the Opel line...to the Chevette....I admit that I have yet to see a side by side comparison....But, the suspension tuining can make a huge difference; I wrote C&D about their "Lightning lap" testing....I was intrigued with the fact that the same basic chassis is used for the 2006 Mustang GT and the 2012 BOSS 302 LS...The lap difference was 3:20 vs 3:03.....For the same basic chassis that is a huge change in lap times. What I wanted them to try doing was to test the two side by side, then swap just the tires/wheels, test again, then swap the springs/shocks/stabilizer bars and test again....Obviously, there is a HP difference (305 vs 444) so what this would basically show is how much of that faster lap was because of newer tires vs suspension tuning vs power. To me, that would be a very interesting test.
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Fiero Vice
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Report this Post01-28-2017 02:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero ViceSend a Private Message to Fiero ViceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by cvxjet:

Number 4; And the magazines never complained about the MR2s DTO until suddenly in 1989, when they started talking about it's dangerous propensity to swap ends if you cut the throttle in a turn.



Out of curious, what does DTO stands for? Google couldn't find anything related to DTO in sports car world.

Thanks,

[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 01-28-2017).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post01-28-2017 01:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Everything I see points to the spindle being the same across the Opel line...to the Chevette....I admit that I have yet to see a side by side comparison....But, the suspension tuining can make a huge difference; I wrote C&D about their "Lightning lap" testing....I was intrigued with the fact that the same basic chassis is used for the 2006 Mustang GT and the 2012 BOSS 302 LS...The lap difference was 3:20 vs 3:03.....For the same basic chassis that is a huge change in lap times. What I wanted them to try doing was to test the two side by side, then swap just the tires/wheels, test again, then swap the springs/shocks/stabilizer bars and test again....Obviously, there is a HP difference (305 vs 444) so what this would basically show is how much of that faster lap was because of newer tires vs suspension tuning vs power. To me, that would be a very interesting test.


Today that is not unusual. Todays platforms are all pretty good and very tune-able. The HP is a big difference as is tires. Even shocks today can play a big roll.

Back in the day of the old F41 suspensions on Chevys they just slapped larger tires and bars on with stiffer springs and got big G numbers. That is all and fine for marketing but you need to match the parts and tune it to the needs of the real world.

Today they tune for uneven surfaces and bumps where before they used the black lake at Warren just to tune the cars. Today they work to set up for the Ring in Germany because it contains about anything you will run into in the real world. If it works there it works well anywhere. Yes some still get it wrong but GM has learned the trick.

The trick is often less is more. Not as much spring and shock can deliver not only a better ride but a better car to drive in the real world. GM learned this with the GM Performance group and they shut it down and put the people directly into the development of each and every car from the start now vs. fixing them after they were built.

People like Mark Stielow are now engineering these cars from the start so the base model is good and the upper levels are even better.

So when building a car just because it is bigger does not always mean better. I see it at work all the time people buy too large of cam, carb and exhaust and wonder why the car does not run. They have no clue a 750 DP is way too much for their small block unless they are running 7000 RPM.

Setting up a suspension today is more computer if you have the data but if you do it yourself it often is testing and trial and error. The key though is to get the springs not too heavy and not get too silly on the bars and tires to a point help but after that the unsprung weight decreases faster than any gain.

As for the Opel claim a lot of cars use a similar set up. It is a very common set up. I would just let it go as there already a large falsehood on Lotus tuning the Fiero in the first place. While techincally you have a point it is not a direct point and just a common of a similar part that neither party worked on to bring about.

In the end The Fiero got what it got due to the lack of funding and they did what they could. GM screwed Pontiac and Pontiac made some fatal mistakes and to be honest the car was in trouble from the start. But it did what it was intended to do and draw attention to Pontiac to save them from the fate of Olds as Pontiac was on the chopping block at the time. The Fiero was credited for helping to get people to notice the Grand Am and it saved the division from failing like Olds. Yes Pontiac failed later and even the Solstice could not save them this time. The lack of global sales finished them in the end.
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Report this Post01-28-2017 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Fiero Vice:


Out of curious, what does DTO stands for? Google couldn't find anything related to DTO in sports car world.

Thanks,



Sorry- I was out laying under my car most of today....(And not because I bumped my head on the car, then the concrete, then the car, then the.....)

DTO is Drop throttle oversteer.....You enter a turn a little too quick, so you cut(Drop) the throttle, and, with weight transfer and suspension deflection, the tail end swings out...It happens on most rear-drive cars, but the more tail-heavy, the more pronounced...The old 911s are very dangerous because of this...later ones used that wessiach axle, where the suspension deflects to toe in the tires under deccel.

To make these kind of cars "safer", a lot of companies just tune the suspension so the car understeers (Pushes) more....The Fiero was tuned that way, while the MR2 was more edgy....But a novice driver will tend to get himself in trouble with a large amount of DTO. I have mounted my Stabilizer bars to help the situation; I have very good turn-in, but after, as I exit the turn, the car has settled back to a more understeer balance, and so I can hit the throttle very hard out of turns.

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1MohrFiero
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Report this Post01-30-2017 06:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1MohrFieroSend a Private Message to 1MohrFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Blacktree:

I don't get many of those comments anymore. Now I get comments like "you don't see many of those around anymore" or "wow, you put a lot of work into that car".



When I hear this one, I usually say something like, "Really, I see one everyday."
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E.Furgal
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Report this Post01-30-2017 10:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
hyper is not going to stop till you say he is right. so you might as well..
in 30 years in the aftermarket and parts still fit like crap.. but he is the pro.. so don't question him.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post01-30-2017 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by E.Furgal:

hyper is not going to stop till you say he is right. so you might as well..
in 30 years in the aftermarket and parts still fit like crap.. but he is the pro.. so don't question him.


Well if you got anything better that could benefit us all provide it and back it up.


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2.5
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Report this Post01-30-2017 03:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by cvxjet:

And 2 out of 3 people who say anything about my Fiero(Even now) say they are a fire hazard.



Remember to mess with their heads and say on only the green ones, and if they question it, you can say yeah its why you hardly ever see a green one
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Report this Post01-30-2017 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by hyperv6:


At the time ...


I always enjoy reading your input.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post01-30-2017 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by 2.5:


I always enjoy reading your input.


Thanks.

I have been lucky to be a part of this for a long time and just trying to share and keep the record straight even if some of the Trolls may not appreciate it.

Not a matter of being right just a matter of keeping the facts as they were given by Pontiac.
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Report this Post01-30-2017 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by hyperv6:


Well if you got anything better that could benefit us all provide it and back it up.



Why.. every time I have you tell me, I'm wrong.. even while looking at the piece in my hand..
I said my piece..
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hyperv6
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Report this Post01-31-2017 12:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by E.Furgal:


Why.. every time I have you tell me, I'm wrong.. even while looking at the piece in my hand..
I said my piece..


Hmmm,,,,,,,,,,Small hands?

You really need some psychological help!

Pathetic but very sad.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 01-31-2017).]

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