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New engine area product for the 84-87 free to someone for R&D by Rodney
Started on: 01-21-2017 03:58 PM
Replies: 57 (1489 views)
Last post by: pmbrunelle on 01-27-2017 06:12 PM
steve308
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Report this Post01-24-2017 03:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for steve308Send a Private Message to steve308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


That strut has the upper bushing hat flipped, so it sticks up. This moved the strut shaft about 1" higher and can interfere with the decklid on some of the models. It looks like they cut the protruding strut shaft after the nut to gain additional clearance and welded the nut the shaft so it can't work loose.


Winner winner chicken dinner! Pulled the wheel - it is a Sach / Boge strut - hat is flipped. It appears that was done when the rear was lowered.
No clearance problem with the 308 hatch setup.

[This message has been edited by steve308 (edited 01-24-2017).]

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post01-24-2017 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:

I'm guessing g.m. bent up the lip for strength .. how much you loose with a flat sheet ring..
tin canning the tower tops will lead to cracks and then failure


I'm not sure why the outer lip is rolled, but it's not for strength. The outer lip is not a stressed part of the washer.

As for the effectiveness of a flat sheet ring, 1988 Fieros have the flat sheet ring design from the factory, and it's OK.

The strut-mount nuts on my other MacPherson strut car (Saturn S-Series) don't even have any kind of special washers beneath the nuts at all.

In terms of things that are likely to go wrong with such a product... I think that paint is a bad idea. Mostly if someone would put a heavy coat of paint, tighten the nuts, then some time after, the paint collapses, loosening up the joint.

Since Rodney already sells steel parts with yellow zinc plating, I would suggest that these rings undergo a similar plating process, and then recommend that users avoid paint. The plating should keep the part nice-looking long enough to not require paint (for a while, at least).

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 01-24-2017).]

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Patrick
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Report this Post01-24-2017 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

As for the effectiveness of a flat sheet ring, 1988 Fieros have the flat sheet ring design from the factory...


Ummm... I wouldn't say it's "flat". Have a look at my image from the previous page Here.

I'm not suggesting that the ring needs to be rolled on the edges. I'm just pointing out that the factory ring used on the 88's isn't flat.
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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post01-24-2017 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
PIP seems to be down, so I don't see the pics now.

Nevertheless, thanks for the correction regarding the raised edges of the 1988 ring. I just looked at other photos online.

I still think that a completely flat ring (à la Rodney) in the shape of a 1988 Fiero ring is "close enough" to be considered functionally identical. So if we consider the 1988 ring to have stood the test of time, then Rodney's ring is "close enough" that we have good confidence that it will work just as well.

I'm really not too sure why the original parts have raised edges (84-88). I have two hypotheses:
1. When punching out the part, if the edges become wavy, the part will not sit flat thereafter.
2. Having the edges up and away from the strut tower prevents the risk of a sharp edge scratching the paint on the strut tower; because who wants a brand-new car with scratches?
I don't have enough experience with stamped steel parts to know for sure. But such raised edges seem to be customary with stamped steel parts.

For a low-volume product, waterjet or laser cutting and a completely flat part seems to be the sensible way to go.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 01-24-2017).]

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fireboss
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Report this Post01-25-2017 04:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossClick Here to Email firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
O great here Rodney comes up with something I never thought about needing and now I got to have one......

Dang you Rodney....
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Rodney
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Report this Post01-25-2017 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I still looking for one owner that has a kit car or has removed his rear vent supports. On the 308/328's there is an issue with the steel braces that many 308/328 kits use that bolts to the long stud to support the rear deck lid hinges. So anyone that has a 84-87 308/328 kit that still uses the factory torsion springs would be OK. No special modified rear struts is preferred also. A 355 kit or a Lambo. Any 84-87 that the rear vent brackets are not in use.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
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Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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TXOPIE
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Report this Post01-25-2017 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXOPIEClick Here to visit TXOPIE's HomePageClick Here to Email TXOPIESend a Private Message to TXOPIEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

[This message has been edited by TXOPIE (edited 01-25-2017).]

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Larryinkc
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Report this Post01-25-2017 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LarryinkcSend a Private Message to LarryinkcEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Nevertheless, thanks for the correction regarding the raised edges of the 1988 ring. I just looked at other photos online.


I'm really not too sure why the original parts have raised edges (84-88). I have two hypotheses:
1. When punching out the part, if the edges become wavy, the part will not sit flat thereafter.
2. Having the edges up and away from the strut tower prevents the risk of a sharp edge scratching the paint on the strut tower; because who wants a brand-new car with scratches?
I don't have enough experience with stamped steel parts to know for sure. But such raised edges seem to be customary with stamped steel parts.

For a low-volume product, waterjet or laser cutting and a completely flat part seems to be the sensible way to go.



My thoughts are that the raised edges on the 88 rings are there to stiffen the rings.
GM wouldn't have spent the money to put them there if they weren't needed.

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Report this Post01-25-2017 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Larryinkc:
My thoughts are that the raised edges on the 88 rings are there to stiffen the rings.
GM wouldn't have spent the money to put them there if they weren't needed.


The 88 rings are quite hard... I never liked the vent bracket part, so I started cutting them off years ago... I think the edges were raised so the bracket wouldn't bend as the vent tab was bent upright. Painting them has never caused them to work loose.


To further support that the strut bolts see limited stresses, this bracket is 3/16" thick aluminum and has been in place for 3 years and 36K miles w/o bending or working loose. Granted this isn't a stock setup (88 strut moved 1" inboard), but I am glad to see others focusing on improving the visual impact of the tops of the strut towers.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-25-2017).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post01-25-2017 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes the raised edges were to keep the rings from bending. You can add much strength with a lip like that and also remove a lot of deflection. Also they could use a lighter steel and make it as strong as a thicker heavier part.

Anyone know what the torque specs are for the studs. U have a guess but not the true reading in my head.
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Report this Post01-25-2017 11:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


I believe it was 2016 and Tom Slicks Fiero (we both long hauled our LS4 Fieros). His issue was caused because the lower washer wasn't installed during the coilover build. So the only thing keeping the strut shaft in place was the rubber bushing and its bonding to the strut upper hat. After several years and thousands of miles, the rubber finally let loose and the strut shaft popped up through the vent grill. It had nothing to do with the strut hat bolts.

The bolts on the strut towers having a ring vs. 3 washers is a non-issue. The strut towers are 2 layers of steel and together they are close to 1/8" thick. The strut hat bolts to the bottom side of the strut tower and it is a little under 1/8" thick. On the 84-87s they have an additional 1/8" flat steel spacer plate that mounts under the strut tower, and then you get to the washers on top (84-87) or the rings on the 88's. The overall clamped metal thickness between all these sections is very close to 1/4" on the 88s and over that on the 84-87...


Ok fine, but why did g.m. use the lipped washers.. and not flat plate type?? beancounters and all. and the millions of vehicles they put them on..
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Rodney
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Report this Post01-26-2017 04:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The factory GM oval washers are about .105" thick. My strut top plates are about .160" thick. I can't assume or guess but they maybe be reasonably equal in strength.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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hyperv6
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Report this Post01-26-2017 07:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It it just pure engineering

Body lines son cars today have presses lines in then for added strength.

It is like taking a flat strip of metal vs a tube of similar thickness. The tube has added strength because of the structure.

Now while the rings may be strong enough they would be stronger with a lip. Only testing can show how strong and if it is enough unless you are an engineer with data to work with.

You have factors of not just shape and thickness but steel strength and resistance to deflection and where the force is placed or spaced out to take a load.

Not sure anyone here can sort this out but the odds are good the rings will be fine.

Lest face it the washers worked as independent parts and i thing to bend this place you would snap a stud first.

Also keep in mind the steel GM used is not a real high grade steel so it needs to have help while this one is a more dense steel and needs no extra reinforcement.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 01-26-2017).]

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Rodney
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Report this Post01-26-2017 07:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have seen rear engine braces with some steel rings that look to be maybe 10 gauge steel (.130" thick) and much narrower than my rings (160"thick). I have never seen any failures on those Fiero's. Has anyone ever seen chassis steel failures with those using the engine braces? Those engine braces have been around for more than 20 years now.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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steve308
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Report this Post01-26-2017 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for steve308Send a Private Message to steve308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:


Ok fine, but why did g.m. use the lipped washers.. and not flat plate type?? beancounters and all. and the millions of vehicles they put them on..


I would speculate that it was simply a matter of 'evolution'. The early year FIEROS were a collection of available parts from already in production vehicles assembled on a jig specific to the FIERO. The three oblong washer probably came from another cars strut mount system. In 88 when the FIERO went thru it's first (and last) substantial suspension update the rings were used - probably from the Beretta / Cavalier. I'm sure the mechanics of the day appreciated the change --- harder to drop and lose a single ring therefore, not having to explain to a customer why it had two original oblong lipped washers and one big shiny standard washer when the job was done.

Many of the products we use today are 'reversed engineered' to bring the update look or benefits to older applications. I feel Rodney latest offering is just such an item.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post01-26-2017 09:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
Ok fine, but why did g.m. use the lipped washers.. and not flat plate type?? beancounters and all. and the millions of vehicles they put them on..


Most GM cars of the era did not use the oval washers for the strut studs, it was primarily a Fiero thing. If you look at the 84-87 Fieros the vent support bracket bolts to the top of 1 of the studs and one end is shaped to fit in the hole in the strut tower to keep it from rotating. So they use a single stud attachment and part geometry to help the bracket remain in the proper position.
The oval washer with raised lip that sits under the vent bracket helps minimize the available room for that bracket to defect (front/rear direction). So my "theory" is the oval shape with the raised lip was to help stabilize the vent mount bracket position. The other 2 washers are oval just so GM could stock 1 part for all the strut washers. For the 88's that bracket support is part of the ring so no washers or other funky geometry to help keep its position.
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Rodney
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Report this Post01-26-2017 09:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have an even better theory and I'll talk about this soon. The 3 small holes for the studs around the larger center opening in the steel strut towers are very non symmetrical. Had they made a ring of any kind it would have looked seriously offset and IMO very unprofessional. So using the 3 oval washers eliminated that. One does not generally notice this offset with the 3 oval washers in place.

Yes, my rings are not symmetrical. They look symmetrical to the eye but are also offset to match the offset in the strut towers. My first prototype was symmetrical and when I put it on the shock towers I have here it was like OMG. What the L! That don't fit at all! Why are the small holes so offset to the large center hole??

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post01-27-2017 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
So my "theory" is the oval shape with the raised lip was to help stabilize the vent mount bracket position. The other 2 washers are oval just so GM could stock 1 part for all the strut washers.


Now this idea makes an awful lot of sense.

 
quote
Originally posted by steve308:


I would speculate that it was simply a matter of 'evolution'. The early year FIEROS were a collection of available parts from already in production vehicles assembled on a jig specific to the FIERO. The three oblong washer probably came from another cars strut mount system. In 88 when the FIERO went thru it's first (and last) substantial suspension update the rings were used - probably from the Beretta / Cavalier. I'm sure the mechanics of the day appreciated the change --- harder to drop and lose a single ring therefore, not having to explain to a customer why it had two original oblong lipped washers and one big shiny standard washer when the job was done.

Many of the products we use today are 'reversed engineered' to bring the update look or benefits to older applications. I feel Rodney latest offering is just such an item.


This too. It's silly to think the design was optimized (cost, performance) from the start, considering that the Fiero was refined every year until its last year of production. Thus I question the validity of the beancounter argument.

I think that the ring design would have been implemented to reduce the number of parts (and thus cost). Not only BOM cost, but assembly cost/labor. Even though there would have been special tooling for the job, just aligning the 3 washers so they look right is finnicky. The giant ring is easy to install; place and tighten nuts, no alignment issues.

 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:

I have an even better theory and I'll talk about this soon. The 3 small holes for the studs around the larger center opening in the steel strut towers are very non symmetrical. Had they made a ring of any kind it would have looked seriously offset and IMO very unprofessional. So using the 3 oval washers eliminated that. One does not generally notice this offset with the 3 oval washers in place.

Yes, my rings are not symmetrical. They look symmetrical to the eye but are also offset to match the offset in the strut towers. My first prototype was symmetrical and when I put it on the shock towers I have here it was like OMG. What the L! That don't fit at all! Why are the small holes so offset to the large center hole??


I don't remember this. Anyway, the spring is not genererally concentric with the shock, so if the studs are arranged to fit within the flat area of the spring perch, the center of those three holes may not coincide with the shock rod.
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