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What setup would you choose ...engine,tranny and axles? by MadProfessor8138
Started on: 11-12-2016 08:13 PM
Replies: 25 (659 views)
Last post by: MadProfessor8138 on 11-22-2016 09:31 PM
MadProfessor8138
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Report this Post11-12-2016 08:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadProfessor8138Click Here to Email MadProfessor8138Send a Private Message to MadProfessor8138Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know this question will probably stir the pot quite a bit with some of the members,but that's not my intentions.
I'm looking for factual information that I can put to practical use on my next car.

The question is this.........
What engine,tranny and axle combination would make a Fiero capable of pulling up next to pretty much ANYTHING on the road and not worry about losing?
And I'm not talking about a combination that is built to the ragged edge and on the verge of destroying itself every time you fire it up.
I'm talking about a daily driver that is a sleeper.
I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest between everyone,please.
I want to know what engine I can pull torque and hp out of,put it to the ground religiously and still have a dependable setup.

I have the following cars:
1. 85 GT with 2.8 as my daily driver.
2. 85 GT with 4.9 that's being finished and will be a daily driver.
3. 87 that is waiting to be built into a sleeper.....weekend play car.

Let's hear everyone's opinions.......
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Report this Post11-12-2016 08:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DLCLK87GTSend a Private Message to DLCLK87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm no expert and not wanting to get into or start a pissing contest either, but I've been doing a lot of reading and am staring one myself so I'm going to be the first to say
3800SC with the stock 4T60E-HD trans.
Why? From what I've found;
It's tried and true. Plenty of info on how to. You can buy the parts needed online. You can work the motor to get more power with off the shelf parts. Good reliability and decent economy.
Now a 3800 turbo may get more power, A 5spd car might be more fun to drive, A 4.9 or N* more impresive, but my opinion would be best bang for your buck, 3800SC/4T60EHD
I really wanted a N* in my Formula but from what i read they can cost much more and aren't as fast.
Now again no expert and every swap has its +'s & -'s and this is just my opinion. Also Remember, you can have 2 of the 3; fast, cheap, reliable, you choose.
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Neils88
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Report this Post11-12-2016 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Unfortunately "...would make a Fiero capable of pulling up next to pretty much ANYTHING on the road and not worry about losing..." isn't a practical goal for a street driven car. Are you looking for the best acceleration, top speed, handling, appearance...? What is your budget? What about skill level? Are you willing to lose "driveability" to gain more power? The end result to achieve these goals won't be a simple plug and play option. You'll need to define your goals clearly and be ready for compromise.
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Patrick
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Report this Post11-12-2016 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MadProfessor8138:

What engine,tranny and axle combination would make a Fiero capable of pulling up next to pretty much ANYTHING on the road and not worry about losing?

Let's hear everyone's opinions...


I don't worry about losing to anyone else on the road with my slightly modded Formula... because I stopped street racing a long time ago.

It might be nice to be a bit more competitive at autocross I suppose, but in all honesty it would probably be a whole lot easier (and perhaps even cheaper) for me just to get something like an older Impreza STI. Then I'd have 280+ HP, AWD, and ABS brakes at my disposal.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-12-2016).]

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viperine
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Report this Post11-12-2016 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for viperineClick Here to Email viperineSend a Private Message to viperineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just install one of these. Cheapest upgrade to do, too!

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MadProfessor8138
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Report this Post11-13-2016 12:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MadProfessor8138Click Here to Email MadProfessor8138Send a Private Message to MadProfessor8138Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You made a valid point Neils88 ...I realize that I asked a question that will have a wide range of possibilities and answers,let me see if I can refine things a bit.
I'm not looking to autocross,top speed runs or to do drag strip runs...to me,those cars are built for a specific purpose and really don't make good daily drivers.
What I'm looking for is the combination that is capable of beating the newer cars....corvette,mustang,camaro...etc.
Those cars are fast right off the showroom floor...and even faster if someone is smart enough to wrench on them.
But that doesn't mean they can't be beat in a red light to red light pull by the old school.
The fiero has several advantages built in...weight transfer and all up weight as examples.
I am very familiar with the SBC, LS,4.9 and 3800sc swaps.....I've read everything that I can find on the swaps.
Here's what I've learned....please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
1. 4.9 .....great low end torque but there's almost no aftermarket at all.
Read all the info I could about doing a turbo or NOS but nobody could determine if either was actually feasible for this engine.
2. 3800sc .....this engine can be built considerably and aftermarket is available.
I've read that sticking with the SC is best and I've also read to dump the SC and go with a turbo.
I've read that you can run NOS on an SC engine and I've also read that the NOS will strip the coating off the rotors if you do.
Nobody seems to be able to agree on how to set this engine up to pull the hp.
3. SBC ....has great aftermarket and can be built...but it's heavy and can get expensive.
4. LS ....see #3 but up the price tag considerably.

Are there other possibilities for engines that I'm overlooking?
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darbysan
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Report this Post11-13-2016 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darbysanClick Here to Email darbysanSend a Private Message to darbysanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For stoplight to stoplight, you might consider the 3800SC with 4T65E-hd, but take the transmission and have the chain drive gears changed from 2.93 Final Drive Ratio to 3.69. This will make it feel like you've added 100+ HP to the engine. Think what a Fiero will feel like with 250hp +100 for the gear feel = 350hp. Hwy revs will be a lot higher ( close to 3000 at 75). Used gears can be found Used Gear Sets for $50, plus maybe $200 to have a shop install them ( can be a DIY). I did something similar to my El Camino (3.08 to 3.73), and it felt like a new engine was installed.

------------------
'87 GT , '00 3800 Series II SC, 4t65e.

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Report this Post11-16-2016 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ls3machSend a Private Message to ls3machEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darbysan:

For stoplight to stoplight, you might consider the 3800SC with 4T65E-hd, but take the transmission and have the chain drive gears changed from 2.93 Final Drive Ratio to 3.69. This will make it feel like you've added 100+ HP to the engine. Think what a Fiero will feel like with 250hp +100 for the gear feel = 350hp. Hwy revs will be a lot higher ( close to 3000 at 75). Used gears can be found Used Gear Sets for $50, plus maybe $200 to have a shop install them ( can be a DIY). I did something similar to my El Camino (3.08 to 3.73), and it felt like a new engine was installed.



I think you are highly over estimating dyno numbers.

What would I know though...360tq with intercoiler, exhaust, headets, intale and I think a cam too. Mated to a 5spd. Oh smaller pulley. I think 2.9".
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Report this Post11-16-2016 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm thinking the old school Toronado trans and a V8.

I'm reading the Toronado at curb weight of 4400 lb, did 0-60 in 9.5 seconds, 500lbs of torque.

Red light to red light without breaking parts. Build the V8 as much power as you like.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-17-2016).]

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Report this Post11-16-2016 06:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Look at what the GTM supercar is doing for a drivetrain, and then turbo it.
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Report this Post11-16-2016 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanClick Here to Email 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
3800 s/c is your best bet for reliable high power/torque with easy mods to gain even more. Engines are plentiful, builds are well documented, and cost is good. In my opinion it's the best if you want an automatic car too.

In my case I wanted to keep my manual trans and 7k rpm shifts sounded appealing to me so I'm going with the 3.4 dohc. With that red line you can get to 70 in 2nd with the getrag instead of the middle of 3rd with a 2.8 making them have a pretty quick acceleration. Also I feel like it's a more rounded package because it sounds great, the rpm range, the engine physically looks slick, it uses stock mounts/trans, and the cool factor of it was what the engine in the fiero prototype.

[This message has been edited by 88cryan (edited 11-16-2016).]

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Report this Post11-17-2016 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakClick Here to Email weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would go with the setup used by Darth, a 3800 with a small turbo. I think that's a 12.2 at 116 setup. 100% streetable.
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Report this Post11-18-2016 08:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I went with an LS4/F40 combo. 382 whp at 6800 rpm and 27-29 mpg on the interstate. I daily drive it 9 months of the year and have put 36K miles on it in the back 3 years.
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Report this Post11-18-2016 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If I was to do another Fiero with a swap, Id prob got with a Gran National 3.8 turbo first choice, then 3800 SC close behind. I tried the V8 route and was disappointed mostly because of the limiting Fiero transaxle. Even beefed up to the max, the T125 monthly either broke the trans or axles...on the street. 4 new trans builds, and 1/2 dozen axles made me just sell the car.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-18-2016).]

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Report this Post11-18-2016 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For stoplight to stoplight, I think the 3800SC with 4T65E setup would be hard to beat. But if you want to do some real racing, then the 3800 with a turbo would be better.
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Report this Post11-18-2016 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

If I was to do another Fiero with a swap, Id prob got with a Gran National 3.8 turbo first choice, then 3800 SC close behind. I tried the V8 route and was disappointed mostly because of the limiting Fiero transaxle. Even beefed up to the max, the T125 monthly either broke the trans or axles...on the street. 4 new trans builds, and 1/2 dozen axles made me just sell the car.



That's why I'm thinking the trans and axles made for the torque is what he is looking for.
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Report this Post11-18-2016 06:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OP wants to reliably beat almost any other car he meets. A 3800 won't cut it.

LS (or direct-injected LT) power is required here.
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MadProfessor8138
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Report this Post11-18-2016 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadProfessor8138Click Here to Email MadProfessor8138Send a Private Message to MadProfessor8138Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My initial thoughts for a drive train setup were:

1. 3800 SC
A. Aftermarket parts are readily avaliable.
B. Turbo can be added for additional power.
C. Information is available.

2. 4T60E tranny
A. I've heard that the 4T60E is stronger than the 4T65E because it has thicker metal in some areas.
B. Don't have to worry about clutch issues.

3. Turbo
A. More power than a supercharger

4. NOS
A. Additional power and help with the turbo lag

I guess my initial question should have been this :
How much hp and torque can you push out and still have the tranny and axles survive?

[This message has been edited by MadProfessor8138 (edited 11-18-2016).]

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MadProfessor8138
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Report this Post11-18-2016 06:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadProfessor8138Click Here to Email MadProfessor8138Send a Private Message to MadProfessor8138Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes,I would like to be able to beat just about anything that I would pull up against on the road...but there are many variables that need to be addressed and I thought some input from everyone might help me decide which way to go for this this car.

What engine can be built for torque and hp?
What tranny will take the abuse?....preferably automatic.
What setup will allow you to put that power to the ground religiously?

All the horsepower and torque in the world is useless if you shred parts or just can't put it to the ground every time you put your foot in it...
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MadProfessor8138
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Report this Post11-18-2016 06:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadProfessor8138Click Here to Email MadProfessor8138Send a Private Message to MadProfessor8138Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

MadProfessor8138

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Member since May 2015
I have found many build threads that have peaked my interest....
PBJ with the turbo 4.9
Dark horizon with his turbo 3800sc
Etc....

I've sent pm's to several members about their build and I haven't heard back from anyone.
So at this point,I guess I'm gonna have to reinvent the wheel and do it the hard way....learn as I go.
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Report this Post11-19-2016 04:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
4.2 V8 Audi with supercharger 12 pounds of boost and Audi 01X 6 speed transmission is what i chose it sounds great it responds great and should produce around 500 HP and over 400 ft lbs of torque
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Report this Post11-20-2016 08:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LunaticClick Here to Email LunaticSend a Private Message to LunaticEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There's fast and there's quick. They are two different things. It cost lots of money to have both. Unless you buy a sportbike that is.

In this day and age, you could spend lots of your hard-earned money to build a sleeper. However, look at what the big three are offering. New cars, with full warranties, emission legal, and making serious power. Look at the Corvette, 650 HP, 650 FT-LB. The Hell Cat, 707 HP. Just to name a few.

I work on Porsche and BMW cars daily. Many of these are quick but they really don't impress me in stock form.

I personally like highly-stressed, small displacement engines that run boost. A lot of boost. With high boost levels, traction then becomes a problem.

Your question was, "What setup would you choose ...engine,tranny and axles?"
Me personally, I would cut the Fiero chassis up and convert it to an AWD setup and reduce as much weight as possible along the way.
After that, a heavily massaged VW 2.0 liter 16 valve ABF engine with a Garrett GTX42 turbo pushing 58-61PSI, a sequential gearbox and sticky tires would be my choice.
With the right parts, you'll be making over 1,100HP.
In an 2,500LB car, that would be crap-in-your-pants quick and fast.
Power to weight = 0.44HP/LB.

[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 11-20-2016).]

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Report this Post11-22-2016 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I dont know any reasonably priced automatic transaxle that will take much torque. Thats why I gave up. We tried special torque converter, 3 different types of bands, and installed up to a 7 disk clutch pack, with a modified valve body...and was still lucky to get it to last 1,000 miles on the street. On a track you might have gotten a few good passes. Each time it was torn down, the band and clutches were fried. Even the stock manuals were hard pressed to stay together. That one gal, Tina I think with a SBC, just counted on replacing her 5 spd every summer.

Olds Toronado or Cadillac FWD transaxle may be the best for the most torque without breaking like already mentioned. They prob have no problem supporting 500 hp...but your putting in a lot of weight.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-22-2016).]

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Report this Post11-22-2016 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MadProfessor8138:

I guess my initial question should have been this :
How much hp and torque can you push out and still have the tranny and axles survive?



 
quote
Originally posted by MadProfessor8138:

What tranny will take the abuse?....preferably automatic.
What setup will allow you to put that power to the ground religiously?

All the horsepower and torque in the world is useless if you shred parts or just can't put it to the ground every time you put your foot in it...


Which is why I focused on which tranny and axle parts.
Old parts yea, but most affordable with a trans and axles that wont break, probably?

Anyway its fun to brainstorm.
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Report this Post11-22-2016 04:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My V8 5 speed car was quick off the line and I would have put it up against most street driven cars up to 60 mph but then its going to run out of gears.
Passing cars going 55 was a most enjoyable experience. The car was a lot of fun, but I never took it over 80.
It was a quick car, not fast. Would snap your neck but quick to run out of gears.
I was getting around 9 MPG ouch
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MadProfessor8138
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Report this Post11-22-2016 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadProfessor8138Click Here to Email MadProfessor8138Send a Private Message to MadProfessor8138Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I see so many guys having clutch issues with the manual tranny's and that's why I would prefer to run an auto trans.
And in general,an auto will beat a manual just about every time if it's set up properly...that's why the drag guys run autos.

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