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Electric Cars by 85fieroguy
Started on: 10-09-2016 06:18 PM
Replies: 41 (582 views)
Last post by: tebailey on 10-20-2016 11:43 AM
85fieroguy
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Report this Post10-09-2016 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85fieroguySend a Private Message to 85fieroguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The future of electric racing cars are here, how could I not hear about it. Watching the F-E race on TV from Hong Kong.. They look like F-1 cars, mfg. by Spark Racing Tech., the chassis by Dallara, electric motor by Mclaren, battery technology by Williams Advanced Engr., 5 speed trans by Hewland, tires by Michelin. The electric motor ( engine) develops 250 HP, will do 0-60 in 3 seconds with a max. speed of 140. The generator charges the battery filled with glycine. Man where have I been , they are in their 3rd season.. Big time companies with big time American racing organizations getting into the act, like the Andretti's, Pensky et al. WOW !!!
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Report this Post10-09-2016 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And now Volkswagen is committed to a line of electric cars to save face from the diesel scandal......so they will soon be advertised instead of pickups on football games....
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Report this Post10-09-2016 07:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay I had to edit my post.

These are electric cars, but instead of just posting the wikipedia article you could have explained what these Formula E cars really are.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-09-2016).]

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Report this Post10-09-2016 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can see a future in them racing. A few years ago I laughed at the people thinking they could race diesel cars. Well they put my ideas out of the way. Electrics are fast, the problem I see is range. They cant charge them, and it has to be a hassle to swap battery packs during a race. Races that last even 100 miles or 30 minutes arent going to cut it for fans used to 3-4 hour races or 500 miles.
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Report this Post10-09-2016 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TopNotchClick Here to visit TopNotch's HomePageSend a Private Message to TopNotchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When they perfect graphene batteries, electric cars will be everywhere, including in racing. Also electric boats, electric airplanes, and who knows what else.
A university in Germany and a university in Austria have just figured out a way to create high quality graphene from graphite -- the first step towards cheap graphene batteries.
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Report this Post10-09-2016 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 10-09-2016).]

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Report this Post10-09-2016 11:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

I can see a future in them racing. A few years ago I laughed at the people thinking they could race diesel cars. Well they put my ideas out of the way. Electrics are fast, the problem I see is range. They cant charge them, and it has to be a hassle to swap battery packs during a race. Races that last even 100 miles or 30 minutes arent going to cut it for fans used to 3-4 hour races or 500 miles.


1954 Indy 500 a diesel ran, but dropped out when the intake got clogged with debris.
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Report this Post10-09-2016 11:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

tebailey

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I would love to see those televised here.
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Report this Post10-10-2016 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Batteries are not the only problem with electric cars. If every car had a battery with 300 miles of range the GRID would collapse trying to charge them. And where would we get the extra power plants to generate the electricity? And what fuel would those powerplants run on? The infrastructure that we spent the last 100 years building cannot be replaced overnight. It will take another 100 years to build an electric infrastructure.
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Report this Post10-10-2016 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
The infrastructure that we spent the last 100 years building cannot be replaced overnight.


None of this is happening overnight.
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Report this Post10-10-2016 11:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:

Batteries are not the only problem with electric cars. If every car had a battery with 300 miles of range the GRID would collapse trying to charge them. And where would we get the extra power plants to generate the electricity? And what fuel would those powerplants run on? The infrastructure that we spent the last 100 years building cannot be replaced overnight. It will take another 100 years to build an electric infrastructure.


No worse than having everyone's AC kicking on at the same time in 100 degree weather. Where I'm at right now 1/3 of our power comes from a wind farm, and that's expanding.
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Report this Post10-10-2016 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've been tooting the electric/hyrid horn for some time now.
I went into a Tesla story in Santa Monica, CA a week and a half ago:
https://www.facebook.com/lo...59395966?pnref=story

A lot of tech pioneered in racing ends up trickling down into production vehicles...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 10-10-2016).]

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Report this Post10-10-2016 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:


No worse than having everyone's AC kicking on at the same time in 100 degree weather. Where I'm at right now 1/3 of our power comes from a wind farm, and that's expanding.


Wind power is an illusion. For every megawatt of wind power there has to be a powerplant on standby with the turbine running at full speed ready to produce a megawatt of electricity. You see the grid can't store electricity. When it's needed it has to be available right now. So if the wind stops blowing guess what? That oil or coal fired plant has to supply the power. The only reason they are built at all are the tax credits that the power companies get from the government.

And you are wrong about the a/c. I live in Houston Texas, we have more a/c than probably any city in the US. I have TWO 3 Ton units that consume over 20 kW of electricity. At that rate of consumption after about an hour and a half you would have the equivalent to a gallon of gasoline. Even a small car has a 9 gallon tank and to fill that up would require far more energy than an a/c unit kicking on. It would basically require as much energy as my entire house uses. In other words, my electricity use would double. All that energy would have to come from somewhere.

So you see the only thing that makes electric cars even possible are the puny batteries that they have. If all electric cars had huge batteries the grid would collapse.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-10-2016).]

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Report this Post10-10-2016 10:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


Wind power is an illusion. For every megawatt of wind power there has to be a powerplant on standby with the turbine running at full speed ready to produce a megawatt of electricity. You see the grid can't store electricity. When it's needed it has to be available right now. So if the wind stops blowing guess what? That oil or coal fired plant has to supply the power. The only reason they are built at all are the tax credits that the power companies get from the government.

And you are wrong about the a/c. I live in Houston Texas, we have more a/c than probably any city in the US. I have TWO 3 Ton units that consume over 20 kW of electricity. At that rate of consumption after about an hour and a half you would have the equivalent to a gallon of gasoline. Even a small car has a 9 gallon tank and to fill that up would require far more energy than an a/c unit kicking on. It would basically require as much energy as my entire house uses. In other words, my electricity use would double. All that energy would have to come from somewhere.

So you see the only thing that makes electric cars even possible are the puny batteries that they have. If all electric cars had huge batteries the grid would collapse.



This isn't quite true. There are plenty of energy storage facilities around. Decentralization also helps, with people installing solar panels and small wind turbines or geothermal generators on their own properties.

Yes, the power grid where you are can mostly deal with the whole metro area turning on their A/C systems, now. It wasn't always that way, and it isn't true in all localities. Local providers tend to try to optimize production and routing, based on previous year over year statistics. Back when A/C was much less common, the power grid in fact wasn't capable of handling so much energy usage, and the devices were perhaps not as efficient in terms of electric usage as they are today. With climate change, there are plenty of areas where A/C usage in summer or heat in winter was much less necessary, but now with hotter summers and colder winters, some areas are seeing greatly increased energy usage, and it does result in disruptions in supply.

No, it won't happen overnight, but it's not as dramatic a problem as you seem to make it out to be, either. Really, what we need is significantly fewer vehicles on the road, regardless of what method of energy conversion is used, and more and better public transport.
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Report this Post10-11-2016 12:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


This isn't quite true. There are plenty of energy storage facilities around. Decentralization also helps, with people installing solar panels and small wind turbines or geothermal generators on their own properties.

Yes, the power grid where you are can mostly deal with the whole metro area turning on their A/C systems, now. It wasn't always that way, and it isn't true in all localities. Local providers tend to try to optimize production and routing, based on previous year over year statistics. Back when A/C was much less common, the power grid in fact wasn't capable of handling so much energy usage, and the devices were perhaps not as efficient in terms of electric usage as they are today. With climate change, there are plenty of areas where A/C usage in summer or heat in winter was much less necessary, but now with hotter summers and colder winters, some areas are seeing greatly increased energy usage, and it does result in disruptions in supply.

No, it won't happen overnight, but it's not as dramatic a problem as you seem to make it out to be, either. Really, what we need is significantly fewer vehicles on the road, regardless of what method of energy conversion is used, and more and better public transport.


The problem is that it will take dramatic improvement across the board to solve the problems we have. The tiny baby steps we are taking now will take far more than 100 years to see dramatic change.

Don't get me wrong, I am an engineer, no one wants new energy sources more than me, but those sources don't exist.

Electricity is just a way to transport energy. It's not a source of power. That it can be generated multiple different ways makes it very useful because if we did have an all electric car fleet then we would be more insulated from the ups and downs of oil prices and availability.

Yes we have huge wind farms in Texas, but show me a wind farm energy storage solution. Maybe Tesla is working on it, but it's in it's infancy. There are some pumped hydro plants that can store energy, but not any of those around where I am. For the most part wind only generates power when the wind is blowing. It's only useful for filling in the peaks and valleys of energy demand. And it's a tiny, tiny percentage. There is a lot of interest in grid energy storage but for now it's mostly talk. It's very difficult to deal with the losses and cost of storing the energy and then releasing it into the grid at a profit. The reason it's not done is because it's not profitable.

Over 67% of the electricity in the USA is generated from Fossil Fuels. Doubling the electricity usage of the country would probably drive that more in the direction of fossil fuels.

No one can predict the future but we as a nation are clearly on an unsustainable path, with that I agree there are too many cars. But cities like Houston would not exist without oil for multiple reasons. Number one half the oil refined in the USA comes from here. And number two it allowed a metro area to evolve that is over 100 miles across from one end to the other. Electric cars would be tough here. Even if I had a 200+ mile range car, many days it would come back exhausted and my house would have to pump a lot of energy back into it overnight. Now imagine the summer when the a/c is cranked up, (even at night here we need a/c) and cars are recharging, it would be tough on the grid.

Yes that didn't happen overnight and conversion to electric is not going to happen overnight either. Maybe an infant born yesterday will live to see an all electric fleet of cars in the USA, but at my age I don't expect to see it. For now, all the limitations of electric cars will restrict them to niches. Even in California where they are favorable for a lot of reasons it's only like 1% of the cars are electric. In places where it's hot like Texas or cold like in the northeast, you won't see a tenth as many. I still say at something more than 10% adoption of electric cars the grid would collapse.

My main point is the crappiness of current electric car batteries is the only reason they are feasible at all. If we all had electric cars that could recharge in minutes with huge batteries, they would demand 50 kW or more and the grid would melt.
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Report this Post10-11-2016 12:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopClick Here to Email jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:

Batteries are not the only problem with electric cars. If every car had a battery with 300 miles of range the GRID would collapse trying to charge them. And where would we get the extra power plants to generate the electricity? And what fuel would those powerplants run on? The infrastructure that we spent the last 100 years building cannot be replaced overnight. It will take another 100 years to build an electric infrastructure.


I can buy what is needed right now to to go off the grid and it would only take 10 years to pay for itself without factoring in the amount saved charging my electric car vs buying gas. 100 years is a farce.

Wind and solar are ready for the grid but the key to eliminating the grid or micro grids is storage and as battery tech gets cheaper, (partly thanks to electric cars) you'll see the popularity of electric storage solutions increase.
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Report this Post10-11-2016 12:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay so as not to sound too overly dramatic, the adoption rate of electric cars will be slow and allow the grid time to grow and adapt.

Perhaps the one way it will grow we are not going to like. For example we here were forced to buy smart meters. In addition to having to pay for them, it also allows the power company to monitor and control your energy usage. Note that I said control. So they already are accepting volunteers to let them control your thermostat. So on a hot day when everyone is cranking up their a/c the power company will nudge your thermostat to reduce your a/c. In return they give you some kind of discount, but the precedence is set that you can REQUEST electricity and the power company will decide if you can have it or not. What could possibly go wrong in that scenario?

But to make this Fiero related here is an example of wind power in Texas.

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Report this Post10-11-2016 01:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopClick Here to Email jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

We are getting to a point where electric cars are affordable(mine was under 10k) and technology is almost to the point where we will be able to finance our electricity generation instead of grid/centralized poduction/billed electricity.

I don't see electric vehicles replacing gas but I can see them becoming more popular.

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 10-11-2016).]

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Report this Post10-11-2016 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is another storage method, I don't remember what country was doing it but I heard about a few years ago. During the day they use solar/wind. Excess power is used to convert water to hydrogen. At night the hydrogen is used to power fuel cells. Our power plant here sits right on one of the great lakes, plenty of water there. I know right now that it's $$$$, but it is an option and it also works to clean the lake water.
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Report this Post10-11-2016 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:


I can buy what is needed right now to to go off the grid and it would only take 10 years to pay for itself without factoring in the amount saved charging my electric car vs buying gas. 100 years is a farce.

Wind and solar are ready for the grid but the key to eliminating the grid or micro grids is storage and as battery tech gets cheaper, (partly thanks to electric cars) you'll see the popularity of electric storage solutions increase.


I disagree. Maybe one person can go off the grid with a 10 year payback but not everybody. Not everybody lives where wind and solar are practical. And where is the capacity to manufacture all that solar going to come from? Are we talking lead acid batteries or lithium? Where is all that lithium going to come from? It's easy to say it's possible, but far more difficult to prove it. If it was as easy as you say we would have done it already. Why haven't you already bought what you need and go off the grid if it's such a great idea?

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-11-2016).]

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Report this Post10-11-2016 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:

There is another storage method, I don't remember what country was doing it but I heard about a few years ago. During the day they use solar/wind. Excess power is used to convert water to hydrogen. At night the hydrogen is used to power fuel cells. Our power plant here sits right on one of the great lakes, plenty of water there. I know right now that it's $$$$, but it is an option and it also works to clean the lake water.


Most anything is possible, but making it economically practical is far more difficult. With any conversion there are losses. There are losses in the conversion from water to hydrogen and there are losses in converting the hydrogen back to electricity. And fuel cells are still an experimental expensive item. They require a lot of platinum that is expensive. The bottom line is that the electricity they release back into the grid would cost far more than anyone would be willing to pay which kills the idea right there.
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Report this Post10-11-2016 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fuel cell technology has been around for 50yrs, and they are replacing batterys in electric industrial equipment. There are losses with any energy conversion, however with wind power if the energy generated when the wind is blowing isn't used it would be wasted unless stored, that would be used to make hydrogen. As I said in my original post it's not cheap, and right now only a few companies are using the technology.
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quote
Originally posted by tebailey:

Fuel cell technology has been around for 50yrs, and they are replacing batterys in electric industrial equipment. There are losses with any energy conversion, however with wind power if the energy generated when the wind is blowing isn't used it would be wasted unless stored, that would be used to make hydrogen. As I said in my original post it's not cheap, and right now only a few companies are using the technology.


Many technologies have been around for 50 years, that are still experimental and expensive. Can I walk into Wal-Mart and buy a fuel cell? No because they are still expensive and experimental.
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quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


I disagree. Maybe one person can go off the grid with a 10 year payback but not everybody. Not everybody lives where wind and solar are practical. And where is the capacity to manufacture all that solar going to come from? Are we talking lead acid batteries or lithium? Where is all that lithium going to come from? It's easy to say it's possible, but far more difficult to prove it. If it was as easy as you say we would have done it already. Why haven't you already bought what you need and go off the grid if it's such a great idea?



http://large.stanford.edu/c...s/2010/ph240/eason2/

Keep in mind I'm not expecting the electric car to replace ICE cars, but I do think they have the potential to become more popular, very quickly.

Right now I'm waiting on a few things, I'd like to move and I'd like pay cash for a system. I'd also like to do less engineering myself. I'll probably start with solar on my next house, then start looking at storage solutions. People are already using Tesla packs and salvaged 18650 packs to build their own banks. I'm curious to see how the Tesla gigafactory impacts lithium ion battery prices and what Tesla's price will be on energy storage.
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Report this Post10-12-2016 12:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

Right now I'm waiting on a few things, I'd like to move and I'd like pay cash for a system. I'd also like to do less engineering myself. I'll probably start with solar on my next house, then start looking at storage solutions. People are already using Tesla packs and salvaged 18650 packs to build their own banks. I'm curious to see how the Tesla gigafactory impacts lithium ion battery prices and what Tesla's price will be on energy storage.


I'm not picking on you, but ideas are cheap and easy... implementing them is hard and expensive. The government doesn't have money to invest in solar, (tried that an it failed miserably). Companies are not going to invest in solar unless there is a quick return on investment. Ten years is an eternity in business. They think in terms of three month quarters. Very few people want to invest in solar because the payback is still too far in the future if ever. Unless oil and gas jumps way up in price there will not be a huge conversion to solar.
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Report this Post10-12-2016 02:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopClick Here to Email jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


I'm not picking on you, but ideas are cheap and easy... implementing them is hard and expensive. The government doesn't have money to invest in solar, (tried that an it failed miserably). Companies are not going to invest in solar unless there is a quick return on investment. Ten years is an eternity in business. They think in terms of three month quarters. Very few people want to invest in solar because the payback is still too far in the future if ever. Unless oil and gas jumps way up in price there will not be a huge conversion to solar.


I know your an engineer and I apreciate the responses. Since this is off topic, we should probably take it to private messages.

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Originally posted by jmbishop:


I know your an engineer and I apreciate the responses. Since this is off topic, we should probably take it to private messages.


Or......the dreaded O/T
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quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


Many technologies have been around for 50 years, that are still experimental and expensive. Can I walk into Wal-Mart and buy a fuel cell? No because they are still expensive and experimental.


No, but you may find one of their forklifts powered with one.
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dratts
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Report this Post10-13-2016 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsClick Here to Email drattsSend a Private Message to drattsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There was a system that used electricity to push a train car up a hill for storage and then let It
come back down the hill for generation.
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Report this Post10-17-2016 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:


No, but you may find one of their forklifts powered with one.


Really? I'd like to see one of those, seriously.

Edit - Some googling revealed that it's still experimental and very much in a beta stage. I appreciate the enthusiasm for electric vehicles, but really it's still not ready for prime time.

 
quote
Cellex had four fuel cell power units in operation for two weeks and Wal-Mart was so impressed, the company has decided to support Cellex's Beta field trials and commercialization process of fuel cell power systems for electric lift trucks. Cellex Power Products supplied Wal-Mart with 14 fuel cell vehicles for the trial. The vehicles are successfully running two shifts a day and being fueled indoors by lift truck operators.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-17-2016).]

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lou_dias
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Report this Post10-17-2016 11:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Over the past 2.5 years, I've piece-mealed together is small solar farm. Right now I'm producing 1.3 kW each hour the sun is up.
I bought a 10x10 flatbed trailer and parked it in front of my yard. I mounted 4 100w solar panels and a 500w grid-tie inverter as a test and plugged it into a 20A outlet in my basement using a grid-tie inverter. They just plug into a normal A/C outlet.
2 years ago I left the house at 1pm and had nothing on and I decided to look at my meter and it was trickling backwards. So I then bought 2 150watt panels and another grid-tie inverter along with more 2->1 MC4 cables...
I ran a 50 foot extension cord to an outlet on the back of my house so then I had 700W...
Then 9months later I bought a 300watt 24v (others were 12v) and stuck that on the roof of my house along with a 10A 24v 300W gridtie inverter and plugged it into an outlet inside my garage to feed additional power back into my house via the underground wire going to the garage.

Finally I bought a couple more 12v 150watt panels at the beginning of the summer and mounted them on the front of my house and had a hole drilled to run to another 250w grid tie inverter sitting in a spare unused bedroom. I replace one of the 100w panels on the trailer with a 150 and that way I was at 750w on the trailer, 300w on the garage and 250w on the front of the house.

In May, my electric bill was $39 despite running a high powered computer and the rest of my appliances. My meter even runs backwards during the day on weekends when I'm home on the computer just more slowly.

If you buy everything yourself, you can take a 30% tax credit on it. I did. It lowers the break-even point to 5-7 years.

It's expensive to pay someone to install it on your roof. Yes, I still pay for electricity but my bill has gone down year over year as I keep upgrading the system. I have been thinking about how to add another 700w but it'll have to tie into the 30A connection I have going to my hot tub...but I'm running out of space for ideal sun coverage... If I can get it done...and don't use my hot tub, there will be months where I don't have a bill.

I bought everything off of Amazon: panels, grid-tie inverters, MC4 cables, 2->1 MC4 cable adapters and mounting brackets. You don't need an electrician when you use grid-tie inverters. They just plug into an A/C outlet.
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Report this Post10-18-2016 08:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Over the past 2.5 years, I've piece-mealed together is small solar farm. Right now I'm producing 1.3 kW each hour the sun is up.
I bought a 10x10 flatbed trailer and parked it in front of my yard. I mounted 4 100w solar panels and a 500w grid-tie inverter as a test and plugged it into a 20A outlet in my basement using a grid-tie inverter. They just plug into a normal A/C outlet.
2 years ago I left the house at 1pm and had nothing on and I decided to look at my meter and it was trickling backwards. So I then bought 2 150watt panels and another grid-tie inverter along with more 2->1 MC4 cables...
I ran a 50 foot extension cord to an outlet on the back of my house so then I had 700W...
Then 9months later I bought a 300watt 24v (others were 12v) and stuck that on the roof of my house along with a 10A 24v 300W gridtie inverter and plugged it into an outlet inside my garage to feed additional power back into my house via the underground wire going to the garage.

Finally I bought a couple more 12v 150watt panels at the beginning of the summer and mounted them on the front of my house and had a hole drilled to run to another 250w grid tie inverter sitting in a spare unused bedroom. I replace one of the 100w panels on the trailer with a 150 and that way I was at 750w on the trailer, 300w on the garage and 250w on the front of the house.

In May, my electric bill was $39 despite running a high powered computer and the rest of my appliances. My meter even runs backwards during the day on weekends when I'm home on the computer just more slowly.

If you buy everything yourself, you can take a 30% tax credit on it. I did. It lowers the break-even point to 5-7 years.

It's expensive to pay someone to install it on your roof. Yes, I still pay for electricity but my bill has gone down year over year as I keep upgrading the system. I have been thinking about how to add another 700w but it'll have to tie into the 30A connection I have going to my hot tub...but I'm running out of space for ideal sun coverage... If I can get it done...and don't use my hot tub, there will be months where I don't have a bill.

I bought everything off of Amazon: panels, grid-tie inverters, MC4 cables, 2->1 MC4 cable adapters and mounting brackets. You don't need an electrician when you use grid-tie inverters. They just plug into an A/C outlet.


Leaving out labor as you did most of it DIY, what was the cost.. leaving the tax credit off the table as that isn''t a rebate.. the government giving money they took from you isn't a credit.

what is the total.. to get to a 39.oo electric bill and is that 39.oo with or without a/c or/and electric heat..
a computer and basic fridge/freezer doesn't ue much energy.. nor does a t.v.
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lou_dias
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Report this Post10-18-2016 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've done the year over year math now and I produce roughly 250 kWhours of electricity per month. A/C or heat doesn't matter because you get to compare historical data. One month of May I was at 450 kWhour usage and two years later I was at 199 kWhours... Different months showed similar results. How much you save is based on your actual rate so yours would be different than mine.

One August I used over 930 kWhours and this August I was in the low 700's with more hot tub usage...and 2 air conditioners on 24/7...

A tax credit is a tax credit. I would have owed $7000+ but when I added in $7000 of costs I got 30% of that off the top...so roughly $2500 less is what I owed.
My accountant had to look up on how to apply it.

You can buy 100W panels now for 20-30 dollars less per panel than I pair 2.5 years ago right now:
https://www.amazon.com/Mono...rds=100w+solar+panel
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Report this Post10-18-2016 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
so you don't think electric heat or a/c etc is worth comment and you are out 7000.oo
what was your bill before the solar?? 39.00 now.. but before was?? this will tell you how long it take to break even.. and will the equipment be safe at that age point..
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Report this Post10-18-2016 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:




http://www.nuvera.com/
We have a plant near here using these.

[This message has been edited by tebailey (edited 10-18-2016).]

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Report this Post10-18-2016 02:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:

so you don't think electric heat or a/c etc is worth comment and you are out 7000.oo
what was your bill before the solar?? 39.00 now.. but before was?? this will tell you how long it take to break even.. and will the equipment be safe at that age point..

You seem to be missing the point. No one invests in solar for short term. I already told you what my bill was for 199 kWh = $39. It would have been almost double that at 450kWhours. So I know I was saving around least $30/month before my latest upgrade.

If you want to talk yourself out of it go right ahead. By my math, my break even point with tax credits is 5 years...and I'm 2.5 years into my initial 400watt system. Considering they last about 20 years, that's not a bad investment.
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Report this Post10-18-2016 03:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After reading some of these post it is no wonder the parties run the people they do for office.

Then they take your lunch and eat it too.
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Report this Post10-18-2016 06:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

You seem to be missing the point. No one invests in solar for short term. I already told you what my bill was for 199 kWh = $39. It would have been almost double that at 450kWhours. So I know I was saving around least $30/month before my latest upgrade.

If you want to talk yourself out of it go right ahead. By my math, my break even point with tax credits is 5 years...and I'm 2.5 years into my initial 400watt system. Considering they last about 20 years, that's not a bad investment.


no one installs solar for the short term.. yes I know but if the equipment needs to be replaced before or at the time you break even, it does not make sense..
That is a problem.. and why I asked..
neighbors house the panels needed replacement after ten years,, the storage every 5.. at time of needing panels the supporting parts and work was not still "code" and all needed to go..
They had another 6 years before breaking even.. and never made it to that 16th year.. the 25k update pushed that back another 12.. and they were told the rest of the panels most likely never make it that long and be efficent .. that puts them at 70k .
doesn't seem to make sense
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lou_dias
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Report this Post10-19-2016 12:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We have net metering here. I store nothing. Basically, my meter runs backwards during the day and then it runs forward when the sun goes down. I get billed on my net usage.
When you start "Storing" power, then the costs go up...until battery prices come down. However, I may consider recycling old car batteries for $5 to jimmy-rig some storage down the road...but that's when I attempt to go off-grid...
I would also consider a Tesla Powerwall at that point as well... There are other storage solutions out there...

I'm just showing anyone that solar isn't rocket science and you don't have to spend all the money at once. Having to buy a brand new trailer to mount my first solar panels added $1600 to my costs. However, when I build my new house, I'll be able to resell it or repurpose it.

Solar is complete DIY when you realize grid-tie inverters just plug into an open A/C outlet...

Back to semi-On-Topic:
Heck, you can mount a couple of panels on a car and along with a battery-charge controller, you can have it replace an alternator during the day... I'm thinking about this for my race car. The alternator is robbing 8rwhp and 11 ft*lbs (proven on a dyno) from my race car. A fully charged battery can run a Fiero for 45 minutes during the day. Supplement some solar power and I can drive it to the track and race for a half hour then drive home.

Back in 2012, when my alternator was essentially dead and acted like a pulley, I race on 2 batteries in parallel and that's how I was able to document the drag of the alternator.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 10-19-2016).]

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