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Recent events/posts by tshark
Started on: 09-23-2016 03:23 PM
Replies: 79 (1343 views)
Last post by: Jason88Notchie on 09-28-2016 07:25 AM
tshark
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Report this Post09-23-2016 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I''m a fairly recent member, but I see a disturbing trend. Some members (presumably fellow Fiero people) seem to be almost hostile. I'm not pointing any fingers, and this certainly isn't everyone, but that's really how I'm starting to feel about this forum. Frankly, I'm at a juncture where, due to the treatment received here by myself and others, I'm about to just wash my hands of everything to do with Fieros.

It is true that I could just avoid this forum, but how many others have done that, are doing that, or will do that? Why run off members? So we can complain about the falloff in posts? Worse yet, how many potential members have been run off, just because of the posts that we have made? Obviously, some members don't like the tone or content of their own posts being turned back on them.

I had my Fieros long before I joined this forum. I bought my Fieros with enthusiam. I've enjoyed them, but lately, not so much. I really wish I'd never found this forum. I'd probably have more enjoyment out of my Fiero now. Again, it isn't that I haven't met great people, but mostly separate from this forum. When I think of my Fiero, I think of this forum, and it's a depressing thought. I really can't generate much enthusiasm for it. I mean, why bother? I don't mind that I rarely get to drive it; but the only place I can go to talk Fieros is here. If this forum is hostile--whether to me or other members--why come here?

Even when I don't post, I read other's posts. I do post on some topics in which I have an interest. I could visit less often, but then why visit at all?

I've met some great people over the years in connection with Fieros, but I got into Fieros for comraderie. That isn't the feeling I get from this forum. There seems to be a clicque. There are some members who seem to be just looking for arguments, or the opportunity to call out other members for the least little thing. There are members who seem to hover over the ”ban button”.

During my brief tenure here, the hostility here has resulted in the loss of more than a few members.
In trying to get the local Fiero community going again, I encountered lots of people who just want nothing to do with ”the hostility”. Since they actually know a number of the people behind the screen names, I'm in no position to argue. I understand that we can't all agree, but why is it OK for some to post their opinion, but not others? Are some members ”more equal” than others? It's like no one read Animal Farm.

Frankly, if this is representative of the Fiero community, I'm done. Sure, I've been in some spats here, but tried not to be any harder on anyone than they were on me. I don't come here to have someone go off on me because I think and have my own opinions.

Shouldn't we be welcoming new members, and celebrating our differences? Anyway, when people wonder why the Fiero community is dwindling, or why people think poorly of the Fiero community, or why we don't have as many new members as other car groups, remember that out posts here can greatly impact this.

I welcome constructive comments.
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Report this Post09-23-2016 03:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There certainly are a few with a capital "D" for sure, on here that like nothing more than to just argue something. They read something, look it up on Wikipedia and come here to quote what they found just to argue about something. Really sad.....

I do NOT in ANY WAY take this as the majority of the Fiero community, nor how they act. Out of the 100 or so people that I have interacted with at shows, get-to-gethers and such, maybe just 2 of them we did not "click". No arguments or confrontations, just on different levels is all. That works out to a whopping 2% or so.

A good tell tale is to look at the persons ratings bar..... if you see a lot of red, take note, and just move on to another post / thread Those red marks are from fellow users here, and is a direct consensus of how people feel about them.

I will NOT give up my hobby, and the amazing friendships that I have made on here and in person for a couple of people who have nothing better to do than to wait till someone posts, so they can argue about something.

Just ignore the 2%, and enjoy the rest of the great community here and in person.

I do hope you stick around, as I have enjoyed watching your build and posts in many threads.
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Report this Post09-23-2016 03:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for adm927Click Here to Email adm927Send a Private Message to adm927Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I too am fairly new here and to the Fiero community. In my personal experience on here I have had much great information. I personally have not had any hostile comments directed at me. I found that there are many knowledgeable people on here, some even bordering on brilliant. Craftsmen, customizers, designers, tinkerers, etc. I am a mechanic and have been since I was 17yso. I am 43 now so you do the math. LOL! I have always liked Fiero's, and recently decided I needed one. I intend to do a 3.8 sc conversion eventually. I have done lots or reading here and learned tons. Having said that I have noticed some posts do have some hostile comments. Overall I find the forum an excellent place for information. Lots of good people with lots of good knowledge. So I am here to stay. But that is just me, and my opinion.
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Report this Post09-23-2016 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Welcome to the new Future.

The fact is the net and forums are the door we open to our home that lets people in that we would never let in the front door of our home.

I am sad to say that as much as the web has helped it also has some wicked side effects that we just have to learn to deal with.

As forums go this one is more tame than most. Some I have seen can be totally bloody messes as they are not well controlled as it is here.

To survive on the web anymore and in the future the first thing you will need is thick skin. The web is no longer a place for thin skin. Second never argue with idiots. It does you no good and has no effect on them. Third pick and choose your post appropriately. If things are getting stupid don't jump in.

I used to post read here in the past but the forum has changed and it is less about history and how to and more about to install an Allison V12 and should I install thing or that on my car. Nothing wrong with these kinds of topics but just not what I am into. I think much has to do with the age group here just getting younger as our cars are more affordable than most.

The bottom line is we will always have idiots. Not much you can do about them as they are what they are. On the other hand most people are decent and just try to work with them and ignore the fools. It is a lot like life. Life is to short to mess with the fools and if you do too often you become a fool yourself.

Road Rage is much the same.

"Larger the crowd the lower the collective IQ"
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Report this Post09-23-2016 04:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:

I''m a fairly recent member, but I see a disturbing trend. Some members (presumably fellow Fiero people) seem to be almost hostile. I'm not pointing any fingers, and this certainly isn't everyone, but that's really how I'm starting to feel about this forum. Frankly, I'm at a juncture where, due to the treatment received here by myself and others, I'm about to just wash my hands of everything to do with Fieros.

.


Leaving would be foolish IMO.
There are idiots and hostile people in all facets of life.
Some people ran to facebook, hiding behind screen names is the only difference between hostility on here and on facebook.
I never understood saying I'm done.
I cant understand how some jerks in a "community" can somehow mean the community is no good.
We are welcoming new members.
The Fiero community isn't dwindling, its dealing with many different age groups and its also moving from forums and websites to things like facebook, there is a lot of young new blood in the Fiero world and different tastes and viewpoints. Its more like growing pains IMO.
You ended your post well, "remember that our posts here can greatly impact this."
*Yes, be the change, promote the positive and there isn't anything wrong with calling out the bad.
Its not all sunshine and roses, but I find that if one is decent to others they usually get that back.
As for banning, you are against it? How can one be against it yet still say we have too much hostility posted.

These are constructive, and meant to be.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-23-2016).]

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Report this Post09-23-2016 04:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:

There certainly are a few with a capital "D" for sure, on here that like nothing more than to just argue something. They read something, look it up on Wikipedia and come here to quote what they found just to argue about something. Really sad.....

I do NOT in ANY WAY take this as the majority of the Fiero community, nor how they act. Out of the 100 or so people that I have interacted with at shows, get-to-gethers and such, maybe just 2 of them we did not "click". No arguments or confrontations, just on different levels is all. That works out to a whopping 2% or so.

A good tell tale is to look at the persons ratings bar..... if you see a lot of red, take note, and just move on to another post / thread Those red marks are from fellow users here, and is a direct consensus of how people feel about them.

I will NOT give up my hobby, and the amazing friendships that I have made on here and in person for a couple of people who have nothing better to do than to wait till someone posts, so they can argue about something.

Just ignore the 2%, and enjoy the rest of the great community here and in person.

I do hope you stick around, as I have enjoyed watching your build and posts in many threads.


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Report this Post09-23-2016 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trivetClick Here to Email trivetSend a Private Message to trivetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by adm927:

I too am fairly new here and to the Fiero community. In my personal experience on here I have had much great information. I personally have not had any hostile comments directed at me. I found that there are many knowledgeable people on here, some even bordering on brilliant. Craftsmen, customizers, designers, tinkerers, etc. I am a mechanic and have been since I was 17yso. I am 43 now so you do the math. LOL! I have always liked Fiero's, and recently decided I needed one. I intend to do a 3.8 sc conversion eventually. I have done lots or reading here and learned tons. Having said that I have noticed some posts do have some hostile comments. Overall I find the forum an excellent place for information. Lots of good people with lots of good knowledge. So I am here to stay. But that is just me, and my opinion.


Amen!! I couldn't have said it any better my self (except for the mechanic part - while I know how to swing a wrench, I'm no mechanic. But I've learned a LOT from PFF!)

My Fiero would not be on the road if not for this forum. The sheer amount of knowledge here is immeasurable, and greatly appreciated. I might not always agree with some on here, but even if I disagree, it would never cause me to leave. While "I" could survive without this forum, my FIERO could not

My hope is to be able to contribute even a small portion of what I've learned back to others. I can never thank those who have responded to posts with helpful advise and valuable experience enough. And it's given selflessly.

 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
Just ignore the 2%, and enjoy the rest of the great community here and in person.

Very wise advice
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Report this Post09-23-2016 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ITR SOLSend a Private Message to ITR SOLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:
I''m a fairly recent member, but I see a disturbing trend...


I'm sorry that this is how it's become. When I first started here, there were guys that helped everyone and always seemed positive, never really getting into any beefs with anyone. They made all of the other beefs and arguments tolerable. The main problem is, a LOT of those guys moved on. Some got out of Fieros, and some just got tired of this forum. This left a hole, and the more vocal and confrontational members rushed to fill it. Instead of offering helpful advice, it was all about their egos and opinions and insulting anyone that didn't agree with them. It sincerely ran off so many people I lost count. For a while there were "I quit" threads popping up constantly. There's one that's resurfaced in the trash can from like 2012.

The good news is newcomers come in with fresh ideas and more positive attitudes, and it kind of balances some of the negativity out. The bad news is some of the really confrontational people attack them for not listening to their expert opinions, and it eventually causes many of them either get swept up into the drama, or leave because of it.

You can see this in the mall, in general, in certain build threads. If you don't like the constant confrontation you really shouldn't even go into the off topic or trash can areas, they're usually the worst. Like I said, I'm sorry for how things are, and wish it was different. There were feuds going on here long before I joined and I don't see that changing. The issue is now that it's more invasive into the various topics and threads, and people don't seem have the same level of respect and consideration as before largely due to the disproportionate amount of posts by a certain minority of members compared to the relatively silent majority.

I hope you reclaim the enjoyment of your Fieros. I've seen it happen to others here and it happened to me too. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by ITR SOL (edited 09-23-2016).]

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Report this Post09-23-2016 05:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXOPIEClick Here to visit TXOPIE's HomePageClick Here to Email TXOPIESend a Private Message to TXOPIEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When crossing today's high-way system you have to deal with toll's for a lot of roads now a days...in TX we have a digital toll tag system. Now when I started driving there was really very few toll roads in the US and I found the idea kinda absurd... eventually over the years as more and more of them showed up and the system has become as seamless as it has with digital toll tags and auto-pay options...it has just become an accepted part of driving now a days.

Now with that all said...you have to remember that the Internet is an information High-way....but instead of tolls, we have "Trolls"....when they 1st showed up on the net I found them kinda absurd... eventually over the years as more and more of them have shown up on the Internet...people have grown into a worn-down tolerance of them, just as in the "Tolls"...no one really wants to have to deal with either of them, but unfortunately they are both apart of our accepted lives currently.

This is still a great place to learn about the fiero and meet some really nice people that also love Fieros...please just and try and ignore the trolls!
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Report this Post09-23-2016 06:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't let it get to you. Just like any other cross-section of society, there are a small percentage of outspoken, egocentric cretins.
Unfortunately, that small percentage gets 75% of the attention. It's just how they are, and how it works. (For reference, check out any of the internet or TV news sites.)
I also have issues with some of the members here. Including a few of the "totally green bar" crowd. I usually try to stay out of the flame wars, though.
(If or when I finally decide to jump in, it's not pretty. I smash toes. And then I'm done. Hasn't happened in a while, though.)
OTOH, I've learned lots of valuable info, here. Most recently in the "LFX horsepower disparity" thread, and several related threads. People willingly share their knowledge and insight.

Aside from that, I had someone tell me, last weekend, the this forum is much more civilized than another forum they haunt. I was like, "really?!". But yeah.
It's all relative, I suppose.

Hope you stick around.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-23-2016).]

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tshark
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Report this Post09-23-2016 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I appreciate the comments. To my recollection, none of you have been hostile or confrontational toward me, regardless of differing opinions. This isn't meant to be an ”I'm done” thread; rather, I'd like it to be a discussion starter. I'd like to address what I see as an issue. Apparently, I'm not the only one who misses the members who got tired of the hostility and left.

I would agree that the majority of the members here aren't actively part of the problem; however, inaction may be the issue. Yes, the ratings bar can be an indicator, but just as often as hostile, it means that they stood up for themself, or weren't popular. Many of the good members could be termed ”the silent majority”, meaning that they sit quietly by while someone gets run through the mill.

As for the ”ban” button, 2% of 300,000 members can quickly ban any new member. The most annoying thing about that bar is that people hold it over you like that makes them better than you. I even had someone tell me he had a bunch of followers on facebook or something, and that that validated his POV. I'm not on facebook, but I couldn't figure out why that mattered on PFF, which resulted in a lot of name-calling from a member with a lot of green ratings. The problem with the bar is that the trolls are far more likely to read and rate than anyone else, IMO. I don't have a particularly thin skin, but picture this scenario:
You join a group. There are a lot of members in the group, but they're talking with their friends, don't attend, or they leave as you arrive. A few people do speak with you, but most of them say you're too new to have good ideas, or are outright hostile to you or other newcomers. You go through this for a few years, and stand up for yourself to outright hostility, but in general you eventually notice that the hostile communication increases in relation to the civil communication.

Would you keep going? Would you change to a different group? What was Rambo's term, ”expendable”? Suppose you attended a different group, and the first impression was a contrast, such that you felt welcomed, wanted, needed, and valued?

I have been in choirs for more than 35 years. Recently, a choir I was in got a new director, who decided to do all new songs every week. Worse, he decided to do them in Latin. I don't know Latin. The congregation quit singing. Now, my kids were always at practice, and they would sing the songs while at home. One day, I heard them singing the following:
Panis angelimus
Fit panis homofilis
That panis coetis
Figuris terminus
O misurabilease
Man dunking dominate

Paper, paper
Servus humifumus
Paper, paper
Servus homofilis


Not quite the right words, but sure some shockers. I stated that this was too many new songs each week, perhaps 1 or 2, and requested less Latin, because I can't understand it or explain it to my kids. The choir director told the pastor, who said I'm the ”Spawn of Satan”, and no longer wanted or needed in the choir, and may not set foor in the choir loft. A little harsh, I thought. So, I sat with the congregation, and didn't sing. The pastor threatened to sue, and told me that he'd have the police remove me. I laughed, and told him to go ahead. Apparently, the police couldn't find anything wrong with my actions, but I'm church hunting. Obviously, that priest is not Christian. He scared my kids when he was yelling at me. Sadly, this happened over the weeks leading uo to Easter. Anyway, a choice had to be made. Over the last few years, I've noticed that anyone who didn't agree with this pastor was removed. The maintenance guy for stating that the bricks the pastor wanted to put in would not last through a freeze. The secretary for refusing to arrange ”escorts”. The former choir director for using songs with refrains. The finance director for refusing to build a statue of the pastor for $2 million. The parish council was abolished, because they could overrule the pastor. The old folks club because they ”were contrary to the wishes of the people”. There were more. What happened? Well, the number of parishoners dropped. We went from 5 weekend services that were mostly full to 3 sparse weekend services. Sunday collections dropped from $25K to $9K. Did anyone else say anything? Nope. The pastor is now berating the remaining parishoners for poor stewardship. Apparently, the savings is gone, and collections don't cover expenses.

We have to make a decision. Do the trolls dictate this forum? If the majority of interactions are from trolls, yes, I will leave. I spend all day dealing with confrontations. It's part of my job. This is a hobby. It's something I want to enjoy. I don't need this particular hobby. I have many interests. In fact, I've been enjoying some of them more. I almost went to the Heartland Fieros show without my Fiero, because I wasn't really that interested in driving it.
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Report this Post09-23-2016 08:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have enjoyed this forum from the day I found it, which happens to be the day after I bought my first Fiero. I have met many MANY fantastic people, both on line and in the real world through the forum. I have socialized with people from my area, to Georgia, Texas all the way to Minnesota! This is an amazing group of people that would, more than not, give you the shirt off of their backs if it would help you. I have seen Fiero owners stop on the side of the road to change a control arm for a total stranger, another time change a brake caliper on the side of the road, again for a stranger.

I would not have my Fiero if it were not for the online help, knowledge and physical help from this community. I will NOT let some troll deter me from socializing on this forum, or in real life. I am an adult, and I am in control of my life and hobby, not some whining complaining troll.

 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:
Frankly, I'm at a juncture where, due to the treatment received here by myself and others, I'm about to just wash my hands of everything to do with Fieros.


 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:
I almost went to the Heartland Fieros show without my Fiero, because I wasn't really that interested in driving it.


I do not know what to say to these statements.... If a couple individuals have physically prevented you, in the real world, from wanting anything to do with your Fiero, then I am sorry to say this thread is not going to be able to remedy that. If comments made towards you and even others makes you want to "wash you hands" completely of anything to do with Fieros.... that is something I do not think any of us here can help you with.

I do not mean any of this as an insult, but just my opinion from my perspective of things.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-23-2016).]

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Report this Post09-23-2016 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In my opinion, this forum is like any other large gathering of people. Some people I will end up liking, others I will choose to stay away from, and many I won't know well enough to form an opinion. I will chose to spend more of my time talking, helping, and watching the progress of those I like, and ignoring the comments from people I don't like, especially if their actions have zero impact on me. I don't enter with the expectation that everyone will welcome me with open arms, agree with 100% of my thoughts, or that I will be immune to criticism or harsh remarks... that doesn't even happen when I am alone in my garage.

Nearly all heated discussions are because 2 people are trying to convince each other to "think" differently about some topic (politics, religion, engine type, transmission type, difficult of swap, cost of swap, benefit of swap, etc)... Generally speaking, most people tend to refuse to be "convinced" of anything, so things quickly escalate to a waste of key strokes...
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Report this Post09-23-2016 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Click Here to Email css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

Welcome to the new Future.

The fact is the net and forums are the door we open to our home that lets people in that we would never let in the front door of our home.

I am sad to say that as much as the web has helped it also has some wicked side effects that we just have to learn to deal with.

As forums go this one is more tame than most. Some I have seen can be totally bloody messes as they are not well controlled as it is here.



All true.

I'm on the Cobalt SS forum which is often a war zone of pettiness and flame wars. It was at its worst when GM introduced the turbocharged Cobalt and everyone who owned a supercharged Cobalt fought with the newbies and their turbos. But like most forums, postings are way down over the last several years and things have calmed down a lot.

On the other hand, I once answered a poll the wrong way (on a different forum) and some guy wanted to go to war with me. Over a stupid poll!

This forum has had a few people who were at one time helpful and wrote good posts but then they either lost interest or moved on to other cars but they kept coming back here again and again to mock newbies' questions. Totally undoing the goodwill and helpfulness they had built up in the beginning.

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Report this Post09-23-2016 11:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ITR SOLSend a Private Message to ITR SOLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by css9450:
This forum has had a few people who were at one time helpful and wrote good posts but then they either lost interest or moved on to other cars but they kept coming back here again and again to mock newbies' questions. Totally undoing the goodwill and helpfulness they had built up in the beginning.


I find this comment to be an undeniable truth.

For the people that kind of have the "suck it up and walk it off" knee jerk response to this line of questions, that may be part of the issue. When a lot of us joined, it was MUCH more welcoming here, and we are seeing things through those eyes. New members aren't having that same welcoming, and I'd be willing to bet hundreds have been either intimidated into silence or driven off altogether. The forum is not as open and helpful as it once was.

I remember arguing along with certain members against similar behavior that I now see them engaged in regularly. I've seen people who used to go out of their way to encourage people just trounce peoples' ideas now and have absolutely nothing positive to contribute to someone's thread. I see for sale threads end up in the trash can because people who weren't even a potential buyer had to trash things so bad it turned into a flame war, same with build threads. People lying about private messages, quoting other people's posts they actually edited to make it look like they said something they didn't. Seriously, it rivals Facebook bullying that kids get subjected to. It makes it difficult to feel that this place is welcoming, and calling newcomers foolish for feeling that way just contributes to the negatives in my opinion.

[This message has been edited by ITR SOL (edited 09-24-2016).]

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Report this Post09-24-2016 01:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by the Spawn of Satan:

I have been in choirs for more than 35 years. Recently, a choir I was in got a new director, who decided to do all new songs every week. Worse, he decided to do them in Latin. I don't know Latin. The congregation quit singing.

I stated that this was too many new songs each week, perhaps 1 or 2, and requested less Latin, because I can't understand it or explain it to my kids. The choir director told the pastor, who said I'm the ”Spawn of Satan”, and no longer wanted or needed in the choir, and may not set foor in the choir loft. A little harsh, I thought. So, I sat with the congregation, and didn't sing. The pastor threatened to sue, and told me that he'd have the police remove me. I laughed, and told him to go ahead. Apparently, the police couldn't find anything wrong with my actions, but I'm church hunting. Obviously, that priest is not Christian. He scared my kids when he was yelling at me. Sadly, this happened over the weeks leading uo to Easter. Anyway, a choice had to be made. Over the last few years, I've noticed that anyone who didn't agree with this pastor was removed. The maintenance guy for stating that the bricks the pastor wanted to put in would not last through a freeze. The secretary for refusing to arrange ”escorts”. The former choir director for using songs with refrains. The finance director for refusing to build a statue of the pastor for $2 million. The parish council was abolished, because they could overrule the pastor. The old folks club because they ”were contrary to the wishes of the people”. There were more. What happened? Well, the number of parishoners dropped. We went from 5 weekend services that were mostly full to 3 sparse weekend services. Sunday collections dropped from $25K to $9K. Did anyone else say anything? Nope. The pastor is now berating the remaining parishoners for poor stewardship. Apparently, the savings is gone, and collections don't cover expenses.


Geez, anything that has ever happened at PFF pales in comparison to that pastor's inappropriate actions.

I've been here almost since day 1. There have always been disagreements. There have always been bullies. Stay out of O/T and you can avoid 90% of the nastiness here.

No place is immune to undesirable people. Apparently, not even church.
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Report this Post09-24-2016 07:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ITR SOL:

For the people that kind of have the "suck it up and walk it off" knee jerk response to this line of questions, that may be part of the issue. When a lot of us joined, it was MUCH more welcoming here, and we are seeing things through those eyes. New members aren't having that same welcoming, and I'd be willing to bet hundreds have been either intimidated into silence or driven off altogether. The forum is not as open and helpful as it once was.

I remember arguing along with certain members against similar behavior that I now see them engaged in regularly. I've seen people who used to go out of their way to encourage people just trounce peoples' ideas now and have absolutely nothing positive to contribute to someone's thread. I see for sale threads end up in the trash can because people who weren't even a potential buyer had to trash things so bad it turned into a flame war, same with build threads. People lying about private messages, quoting other people's posts they actually edited to make it look like they said something they didn't. Seriously, it rivals Facebook bullying that kids get subjected to. It makes it difficult to feel that this place is welcoming, and calling newcomers foolish for feeling that way just contributes to the negatives in my opinion.



I'll admit I've contributed to some threads heading downhill, but yes, this exactly. If in general, the vibe you get is hostile--even if only to other members--it isn't as enjoyable.

The question is, what could be done to turn PFF back into the welcoming place it used to be?
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Report this Post09-24-2016 07:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Geez, anything that has ever happened at PFF pales in comparison to that pastor's inappropriate actions.

I've been here almost since day 1. There have always been disagreements. There have always been bullies. Stay out of O/T and you can avoid 90% of the nastiness here.

No place is immune to undesirable people. Apparently, not even church.


Careful with that name. That was part of a whole tirade. Even getting kicked out of the choir didn't have as much impact on me. This was a very hurtful and personal experience for me. If it had been someone else, I'd have shrugged, laughed it off, or responded in kind. It would have been like Hulki telling you that you had ruined your Fiero, were a terrible Fiero owner, and any Fiero you were near deprecated in valie.
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Report this Post09-24-2016 08:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:

I do not mean any of this as an insult, but just my opinion from my perspective of things.



Not at all. Honest dialogue, right?

The physical people in the real world have been fine. Understand that, other than one show a year, PFF is really my only contact with Fiero people. If there are Fiero events listed in threads, but after the event, crickets, where is the excitement? If the people who attended the event weren't fired up, how could anyone reading about the event on PFF be interested in attending?

I joined so I could contact Danyl to get LED side markers. Speaking of whom, where is he?

It's about associations. I actually sold a Fiero because of bad associations with it. It had a leak in one side cooling tube. Then some moron tried to take off the thermostat housing, and didn't tighten the screws. I found and fixed that. Meanwhile, my wife had been driving this car everywhere, but started getting stranded. The coolant would boil out of the reservoir. She associated getting stranded with that Fiero, and I always had to go get her. It was parked for a few months. I sold that Fiero, because we would never have the same confidence in it again.

The same thing here. I want to have good associations. I am disturbed when I see posts on PFF actively encouraging one member to bring harm to another member, or rejoicing that someone was banned. Sometimes, I read threads that may have happened before I joined PFF, where someone got banned because of a disagreement. Yes, sometimes I feel guilt that I could've stopped it. A few times, I've tried.

What happened to Dan Damage? Not banned, perhaps. Just...gone. How many just go in silence?

Look through the technical, general, and mall sections. Technical isn't too bad, but won't get anyone into Fieros, and won't keep them on PFF. The Mall is mostly people trying to sell their Fiero, or get out of Fieros, with lots of negative posts. Events is barely worth reading. I'm sorry, but it's no fun at all. General is really the only area to keep someone. And what tone do the posts there have?
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Report this Post09-24-2016 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:
I would agree that the majority of the members here aren't actively part of the problem; however, inaction may be the issue. Yes, the ratings bar can be an indicator, but just as often as hostile, it means that they stood up for themself, or weren't popular. Many of the good members could be termed ”the silent majority”, meaning that they sit quietly by while someone gets run through the mill.

As for the ”ban” button, 2% of 300,000 members can quickly ban any new member. The most annoying thing about that bar is that people hold it over you like that makes them better than you. I even had someone tell me he had a bunch of followers on facebook or something, and that that validated his POV. I'm not on facebook, but I couldn't figure out why that mattered on PFF, which resulted in a lot of name-calling from a member with a lot of green ratings. The problem with the bar is that the trolls are far more likely to read and rate than anyone else, IMO.


This is exactly the problem. The introduction of the ratings bar, and thus mob banning, was roughly the same point when things started going downhill here. Prior to the ratings bar, there was no direct indication that one was about to be banned, and so people were a lot more respectful of the rules. For people with sufficient green on the ratings bar, they think they are untouchable and can do whatever they want; especially since a large majority of those plus ratings are from members who don't even use the forum any more, so it's unlikely they'll be used to warn people that they are behaving poorly, with the newer arrow feature.

While the system has been beneficial in a few extremely rare cases to speed ban obvious trolls and such, it's more harmful to the forum in the general case. This can be fixed, but from previous similar threads, it doesn't seem like Cliff is really interested in doing so. Or at least, that's how it appeared to me. This is how I'd fix it:

- Make a user's ratings bar the only one that user can see, except for moderators (ie Cliff)
- Introduce time-decay of ratings so that ratings slowly return to an average of 0
- Move +/- to be on posts, rather than directly on a user
- Allow users to see what the ratings for their individual posts are (but not allow other users to see that)
- Remove speed banning feature, and change it to mute user for X hours (can log in and PM, but not post on threads, while muted)
- Reset all current ratings to 0

Then, Cliff (or other moderator if we ever get any) can see list of muted users, and links to the posts which resulted in it, and determine if further action (such as a ban) is appropriate. This I think would solve all the problems with the current ratings system, allowing people to see when they're perhaps being inappropriate, and the muting gives them some time to think about their posts without being banned. It also prevents people from collecting ratings from people who are inactive on the forum, and having those sit around forever, and having that be an advantage (or disadvantage in some cases) in the ratings game (yes, I said game, because the ratings system has turned this forum into a sort of game for some people).
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Report this Post09-24-2016 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:

Careful with that name. That was part of a whole tirade. Even getting kicked out of the choir didn't have as much impact on me. This was a very hurtful and personal experience for me.


That pastor needs to be put to pasture. Referring to anyone in the congregation as the ”Spawn of Satan” is a little weird to say the least. Sounds to me like a total nutcase.

 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:

The choir director told the pastor, who said I'm the ”Spawn of Satan”, and no longer wanted or needed in the choir, and may not set foor in the choir loft. A little harsh, I thought.

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Report this Post09-24-2016 05:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nothing will happen to that pastor in consequence. It's a new age. In fairness, I did say that the Latin could be satanic rites, for all I knew.

Anyway, no one can change the past.

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

While the system has been beneficial in a few extremely rare cases to speed ban obvious trolls and such, it's more harmful to the forum in the general case. This can be fixed, but from previous similar threads, it doesn't seem like Cliff is really interested in doing so. Or at least, that's how it appeared to me. This is how I'd fix it:

- Make a user's ratings bar the only one that user can see, except for moderators (ie Cliff)
- Introduce time-decay of ratings so that ratings slowly return to an average of 0
- Move +/- to be on posts, rather than directly on a user
- Allow users to see what the ratings for their individual posts are (but not allow other users to see that)
- Remove speed banning feature, and change it to mute user for X hours (can log in and PM, but not post on threads, while muted)
- Reset all current ratings to 0


Dobey, I can't speak for history, but these ideas sound great. They appear to be thought out and on point.

Somehow, I don't see them bringing back members like Infinitewil. Cliff has fallen on hard times, last I heard. I know there is supposed to be a new site coming, but that may be on hold. I hope any new site supports image uploads from the web page itself, from any device.

[This message has been edited by tshark (edited 09-24-2016).]

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Report this Post09-24-2016 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:
Not quite the right words, but sure some shockers. I stated that this was too many new songs each week, perhaps 1 or 2, and requested less Latin, because I can't understand it or explain it to my kids. The choir director told the pastor, who said I'm the ”Spawn of Satan”, and no longer wanted or needed in the choir, and may not set foor in the choir loft. A little harsh, I thought. So, I sat with the congregation, and didn't sing. The pastor threatened to sue, and told me that he'd have the police remove me. I laughed, and told him to go ahead. Apparently, the police couldn't find anything wrong with my actions, but I'm church hunting. Obviously, that priest is not Christian. He scared my kids when he was yelling at me. Sadly, this happened over the weeks leading uo to Easter. Anyway, a choice had to be made. Over the last few years, I've noticed that anyone who didn't agree with this pastor was removed. The maintenance guy for stating that the bricks the pastor wanted to put in would not last through a freeze. The secretary for refusing to arrange ”escorts”. The former choir director for using songs with refrains. The finance director for refusing to build a statue of the pastor for $2 million. The parish council was abolished, because they could overrule the pastor. The old folks club because they ”were contrary to the wishes of the people”. There were more. What happened? Well, the number of parishoners dropped. We went from 5 weekend services that were mostly full to 3 sparse weekend services. Sunday collections dropped from $25K to $9K. Did anyone else say anything? Nope. The pastor is now berating the remaining parishoners for poor stewardship. Apparently, the savings is gone, and collections don't cover expenses..
So you seem to think church equates to PFF in some way?

 
quote
We have to make a decision. Do the trolls dictate this forum? If the majority of interactions are from trolls, yes, I will leave. I spend all day dealing with confrontations. It's part of my job. This is a hobby. It's something I want to enjoy. I don't need this particular hobby. I have many interests. In fact, I've been enjoying some of them more. I almost went to the Heartland Fieros show without my Fiero, because I wasn't really that interested in driving it.
Worse Flames at PFF is Nice comparing FB, Instagram, YT and Twitter that will degrade and attack anything and everyone. People using them have been killed or committed suicide.
At PFF, We have to do nothing. If you don't like how Cliff Pennock runs PFF then go.

You appear to have no idea how many users are using PFF...
For one, 10,000+ members for PFF is same counting as MS counting Win10 buyers and upgrades... All count Total users not Active/Current users. Same for old AOL and many others. Even FB uses same iffy math to sell ads etc.

  • Many users are not members and use PFF search, google, my cave, etc, to find their answer to whatever problem.
  • Many are just to post a problem or three and gone. Most fix them when they have little or no choice and later Most of them have sold/junk the car for many reasons, like Just want a better/new car, car was wreck, etc. They often stopped using PFF because they're really not interested in fixing old cars and have little or nothing to do w/ other PFF users.
  • Some have old users names and forget passwords etc then created new accounts. Some have done so several times. Main problem here is because PFF never had a way to recover accounts by user and Cliff won't reset passwords. (ETA--> PFF system can reset password but many don't update email when they charge ISP etc.)

    Bans Flamewars etc.
  • Many just to be an "expert" and making many BS claims and when got caught, The same "experts" claim that all "PFF users are morons." Many join to be Trolls and have same result.
  • Some are trying to sell whatever and quickly get a flamewar because Many here have seen many are outright spammers or vaporware that never happens.
  • Many Bans are result of posting in TO/T and generate or add to Flamewars. Example: Posting Political/Religion views are a good way get negative points or banned. (ETA--> Many other forums Do Not Allow any Political/Religion posts for this reason. Most post in TO/T won't be tolerated because outside of focus for the target audience. Example: You can't post general Win10 problems on most gun and car forum.)

    Ratings bar...
    Suggest you read C.P. statements how it works and why.
    Speed Ban was direct result to ban spammers and major trolls fast. Is to give us a way to ban them when Cliff is away.
    Current system w/ little arrow above the bar is direct result of some green users turn bad in a hurry. Jazzman was good at tech but later had problems in TO/T and banned for several reasons.
    Speed ban counts DOES time out and drop to Zero in a few days. If you see the small arrow high (either way) for weeks then you have a lot of point each week or people mad so much even take time to update the points given to you.

    ------------------
    Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
    (Jurassic Park)


    The Ogre's Fiero Cave

    [This message has been edited by theogre (edited 09-24-2016).]

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    Report this Post09-24-2016 08:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by theogre:
    Worse Flames at PFF is Nice comparing FB, Instagram, YT and Twitter that will degrade and attack anything and everyone. People using them have been killed or committed suicide.
    At PFF, We have to do nothing. If you don't like how Cliff Pennock runs PFF then go.

    You appear to have no idea how many users are using PFF...


    I made no comparison to these other social media. They're irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. Since you broight it up, though, do you want things to get like that on PFF? Is it OK to disrespect others here, just because it happens elsewhere?

    I also made no comment on how Cliff runs PFF. I was speaking of the members. Cliff ahouldn't have to force us to be civil.

    And I understand perfectly about the users on PFF. I don't know the relevant numbers for users of the ”ban button” or how many clicks it takes to ban someone.

     
    quote
    Originally posted by theogre:
    So you seem to think church equates to PFF in some way?


    No. I don't. Nowhere did I state that, and that comment served no purpose.

    [This message has been edited by tshark (edited 09-24-2016).]

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    Report this Post09-24-2016 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by theogre:
    Ratings bar...
    Suggest you read C.P. statements how it works and why.
    Speed Ban was direct result to ban spammers and major trolls fast. Is to give us a way to ban them when Cliff is away.
    Current system w/ little arrow above the bar is direct result of some green users turn bad in a hurry. Jazzman was good at tech but later had problems in TO/T and banned for several reasons.
    Speed ban counts DOES time out and drop to Zero in a few days. If you see the small arrow high (either way) for weeks then you have a lot of point each week or people mad so much even take time to update the points given to you.


    I know exactly how the ratings bar works. But that is irrelevant. Knowing how it works doesn't solve the problems which exist simply because the thing exists. It is a poor attempt at trying to solve social problems with a technical implementation.

    Bans do not reset or timeout. The only way one gets unbanned is if Cliff decides you probably shouldn't have been banned, and grants a second chance.

    No, the arrow does not move back to 0 "in a few days." It takes a month, or someone altering their rating, for the arrow to move in the opposite direction. The arrow also doesn't help, because of the aforementioned "clique" problem, and the fact that certain people dole out ratings for the most menial disagreements, and in some cases, the associated clique will follow suit. There may have been good intentions behind the idea, but the way it works in reality is not in line with those intentions.
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    Report this Post09-24-2016 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    I would hope that you don't give up on the PFF- Yes, some of us on here have some strong opinions...That could be expected considering we are driving a mid-engined sportscar- That alone makes us stand out...Then add in that it's US made and NOT a Vette....well, we are just plain nuts!

    I have always enjoyed standing out and disagreeing with the "common knowledge".....A) "You can't ski behind a jet boat!", B) "Jetboats are fuel hogs!", C) "Fieros are crap!", D) "Pushrod engines are old-fashioned and can't compare to a 4 valver!"....I can prove all of these are NOT true.....My favorite is "Japanese quality is better than US quality"....An AMERICAN taught the Japanese quality control! Anyway, the whole point is that sometimes I can PO someone when I tell them my opinion. I'm just stating what I know to be true, but of course...It sometimes sounds like I am calling people dumb or wrong...I have to be more careful with my statements......

    I think anyone on the PFF would help anyone with a Fiero any time they need help, and that is the main reason you(And all of us) are here....We need more people who are cool and mature, not opinionated SOBs like.......well, me....
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    Report this Post09-24-2016 11:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ITR SOLSend a Private Message to ITR SOLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by theogre:
    We have to do nothing. If you don't like how Cliff Pennock runs PFF then go.



    Way to show EXACTLY the attitude that has been running people off Ogre. You're right we don't have to do anything, including being decent human beings to others looking to be a part of our community. I've watched your demeanor sour over the years, along with several other members.
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 12:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by ITR SOL:

    Ogre... I've watched your demeanor sour over the years, along with several other members.


    I can't help but notice you've been actively passing judgment on a number of PFF members since you re-registered here three months ago. It might prove interesting to know some of your history here. How about telling us what your previous username was.
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 12:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ITR SOLSend a Private Message to ITR SOLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by Patrick:

    I can't help but notice you've been actively passing judgment on a number of PFF members since you re-registered here three months ago. It might prove interesting to know some of your history here. How about telling us what your previous username was.


    How about don't be concerned with things that don't concern you. I left of my own volition, having nothing to do with anything other than having personal issues (and also not caring for conduct from certain people here). Once I returned I decided to do so as a clean slate, and didn't intend to interact with anyone other than in the mall and for specific questions. I have this weakness in my character that doesn't allow me to sit idly by as people harass other people though.

    If I decide to divulge more about myself to anyone it definitely wouldn't be you or any of the other habitual antagonists on here. Your demeanor has soured more than Ogre's. That comment I made earlier about arguing on the same side of people against behavior that those same people now do regularly fit you perfectly. Your conduct on here wouldn't lead me to want to ever meet you in person now, and for that reason, I have no intention of sharing anything about myself with you. Sorry, I prefer to have a say in those types of things.
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 12:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by ITR SOL:

    How about don't be concerned with things that don't concern you... etc... etc


    So you were banned eh?
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 12:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ITR SOLSend a Private Message to ITR SOLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by Patrick:

    So you were banned eh?


    vo·li·tion
    vōˈliSH(ə)n/
    noun
    the faculty or power of using one's will.


    I get that you're being rhetorical in your question, but it also proves my point about your demeanor. I know your comprehension isn't the issue, so obviously your spitefulness is the primary reason for your remarks here and in many many other threads.
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 01:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by ITR SOL:

    ...your spitefulness


    My "spitefulness"?

    All you've done since June is bad-mouth one PFF member after another who doesn't appear to meet your lofty standards.

    If you had any integrity at all, you'd let us know your previous username.

    What are you hiding?
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 01:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ITR SOLSend a Private Message to ITR SOLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by Patrick:

    My "spitefulness"?

    All you've done since June is bad-mouth one PFF member after another who doesn't appear to meet your lofty standards.

    If you had any integrity at all, you'd let us know your previous username.

    What are you hiding?


    Creative way of describing the situation. I haven't "bad mouthed" anyone. I've called out bad behavior towards other members. The number of people I've done this with has been low enough to count on one hand, and I have yet to call anyone a name or attack them on a personal level. When I make general statements about behavior on the forum in general, you've taken offense personally. I wonder why that is...? I couldn't care less about what you think integirty is. When you decide to act with a little higher level of integrity in what you post and how you act towards other people, we can then have a discussion about mine.
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 01:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by ITR SOL:

    When I make general statements about behavior on the forum in general, you've taken offense personally.


    Oh really?

    I spoke up when you criticized The Ogre... a valuable PFF member who's been here from day one. I appreciate very much the contributions he's made to this forum.

    You've got a lot to say about how PFF is run for someone who's ashamed of their history here.
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    theogre
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 01:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by tshark:
    No. I don't. Nowhere did I state that, and that comment served no purpose.
    Then Why post the whole paragraph I quote above? You tried to make some point posting all that or that's irrelevant too? Sad Fact: Your story is not new or unique. On it's face, Just a "pastor" and choir director on a power trip but can be a lot deeper. (Sorry but $25k per week/month is allot to many but small change to many regional or national churches.)

     
    quote
    I made no comparison to these other social media. They're irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned.
    Most of PFF is very nice and happy to help but you what to "fix" a problem with no clue what the problem is. Suggest you just read the news in US and others countries above how bad FB et al is and hinds behind laws to shield them for Trolls operating on their networks. Same laws are part of Why Terrorists are using their networks too. The reason they try to stop ISIS now is bad PR and US UK France and other Govmnts leaning on SM companies.

    For the most part, PFF members will push out Trolls and Spammers. In short:
    Speed ban needs X negs in hours.
    Normal ban needs Y negs in days or weeks.

     
    quote
    Since you broight it up, though, do you want things to get like that on PFF? Is it OK to disrespect others here, just because it happens elsewhere?
    No but you trying to push "Can't we all just get along?" that doesn't work in the real world, not even in any church.

    Problem is you can't be bothered finding out how PFF works and even post this thread in the wrong section.
    Now you're trying save us?

    No thanks. I was dealing with "bulletin boards" and forums before Apple IBM etc made PCs and label as "Social Media" and heard all of this many Many times.

    [This message has been edited by theogre (edited 09-25-2016).]

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    ITR SOL
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 01:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ITR SOLSend a Private Message to ITR SOLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by Patrick:

    Oh really?

    I spoke up when you criticized The Ogre... a valuable PFF member who's been here from day one. I appreciate very much the contributions he's made to this forum.

    You've got a lot to say about how PFF is run for someone who's ashamed of their history here.


    In all fairness, I do occasionally see you post something helpful, so it's not like all you do is spout negativity. That said, when you do get that way, you get relentless in your pursuit, kind of like you're trying to do here with me.

    I criticized Ogre's "you don't like it, leave" attitude towards someone who was saying the attitude here has been very unwelcoming. I didn't say squat about him as a person other than his demeanor had soured over the years, which it has. Strange how some of the long term members seem to think they're here for color commentary about everything, and don't care who they offend or how. Just because someone has contributed to the forum, that doesn't give them a free pass on being inconsiderate towards others. It sure doesn't give them a justification for attacking people without just cause.

    I'm not ashamed of anything. If I was, I'd have never spoken out. And what is your common justification when someone asks you why you're speaking about something? Oh yeah, this is a forum, we're supposed to talk here, right? So yeah, anyway, you can go back to arguing with dobey now. I've made my point and am done playing this game. Keep using the tactics I outlined as the negative behavior that some members have resorted to. I'm not here for you, and am not going to be baited further in this conversation.
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    Patrick
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 01:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by ITR SOL:

    I'm not here for you, and am not going to be baited further in this conversation.


    You've got lots to say until someone calls you on it.
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    theogre
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by dobey:
    I know exactly how the ratings bar works. But that is irrelevant. Knowing how it works doesn't solve the problems which exist simply because the thing exists. It is a poor attempt at trying to solve social problems with a technical implementation.

    Bans do not reset or timeout. The only way one gets unbanned is if Cliff decides you probably shouldn't have been banned, and grants a second chance.

    No, the arrow does not move back to 0 "in a few days." It takes a month, or someone altering their rating, for the arrow to move in the opposite direction. The arrow also doesn't help, because of the aforementioned "clique" problem, and the fact that certain people dole out ratings for the most menial disagreements, and in some cases, the associated clique will follow suit. There may have been good intentions behind the idea, but the way it works in reality is not in line with those intentions.
    Yes If you have several to many negs AND no-one adds/changes points then can/will take weeks to 0 out the arrow just for timeout.
    I know that you need + to move to Green... as i read cliff posts... if you have 5 - then get 10 + in a week to a month result is 5 or more Green side of arrow. Arrow will move slow to ten green then to 0 w/o others adding/changes points. I get maybe 1 point a month or less most times and watch the arrow drop to 0 in < a week.

    Yes Cliff can give you a 2nd chance.... Other Forums often Do Not bother. FB and others Do Not remove most bans either. You have to get MSM press to get FB and others to care about ban problems like "Mark Zuckerberg, wants us to forget ?"
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    Rodney
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 04:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by JohnWPB:

    There certainly are a few with a capital "D" for sure, on here that like nothing more than to just argue something. They read something, look it up on Wikipedia and come here to quote what they found just to argue about something. Really sad.....
    .


    Lets start in the beginning with JohnWPB and myself:

    Years ago JohnWPB and I were quite friendly to each other. I even made a web page on my site showing where to go to buy his reproduction stickers. I have several of these on my web page showing where to get a part I do not sell and I am happy to make them for anyone to help them out.

    Many years ago when I had a $10 minimum purchase on my web page Dave(sardonyx247) placed an order for $7.00 with shipping. So I charged him $8 instead of my posted $10 minimum. Dave emailed me and asked why I charged him $8 for his $7 purchase. I told him because my web page clearly stated I have a $10 minimum and I could have charged you $10. So Dave took that as an insult and for the last 15+ years has been posting here and there whenever he can find the opportunity to take a jab at me. Well after 15+ years of enduring these jabs I had enough and decided to fight back and show him what it feels like. So I go in his brake booster topic and start posting negative things about his brake boosters. JohnWPB sees this and instantly hates me for bashing Dave and his brake boosters. So from that day on JohnWPB also rips on me every chance he can find. Where was JohnWPB all these years when Dave(sardonyx247) was taking those jabs at me?

    Many here have met me personally at Fiero shows and such. I've been to like 100+ Fiero shows, club meeting etc in years past. Of all the people here that have met me personally at Fiero shows and such can anyone of you say anything negative about me after meeting me personally?

    I have to say offhand the only people I have had a problem with here is Mera7 (In my opinion a compulsive/pathological liar), Slammed (In my opinion a compulsive/pathological liar) and Dave (sardonyx247). I openly admit I have a serious personal problem with compulsive/pathological liars.

    ------------------
    Rodney Dickman

    Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
    All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
    Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
    7604 Treeview Drive
    Caledonia, WI 53108
    Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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    Rodney
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    Report this Post09-25-2016 06:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    I'll also offer an opinion:

    I've been here since the very beginning. I have certainly witnessed many arguments between individuals. They have generally been between two individuals and eventually one or both get banned or eventually get tired of fighting. The rest of us continue on our merry way generally unaffected by these occurrences.

    But (and this is only my opinion) this all changed recently when this Slammed person arrived and these tail light topics began. Yesterday I went back and read all of the posts from these tail light topics. I see many individuals bashing many other individuals. So now we no longer have two people fighting against each other. We now have a multitude of people fighting against one another.

    I took note of all the screen names that were involved in these tail light topics. I notice that many of these screen names no longer seem to participate on the forum anymore. Years ago one days worth of topics and replies could cover two pages. You look at the forum now and one page covers several days.

    So I'll say it again: In my opinion these Slammed tail light topics caused a lot of damage here. Where do we go from here?

    ------------------
    Rodney Dickman

    Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
    All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
    Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
    7604 Treeview Drive
    Caledonia, WI 53108
    Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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