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300hp 2.8? by Mickeymickanthony
Started on: 06-16-2016 10:47 PM
Replies: 26 (875 views)
Last post by: MulletproofMonk on 06-21-2016 04:41 PM
Mickeymickanthony
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Report this Post06-16-2016 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MickeymickanthonyClick Here to Email MickeymickanthonySend a Private Message to MickeymickanthonyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bought an 87GT with only 4000 miles and I don't want to go the swap route just yet.. I've seen turbo'd 2.8s on YouTube but I don't know how reliable they are and what all needs to be done for the turbo. Would love to have at least have 250hp at the wheels

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~Mickey

[This message has been edited by Mickeymickanthony (edited 06-16-2016).]

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Report this Post06-16-2016 11:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Napoleon_TaneriteSend a Private Message to Napoleon_TaneriteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've never tried it, but I did a lot of research on the subject and the consensus seems to be to not waste your time and money trying to make power out of the 2.8. Either appreciate it for what it is, or swap it out.

Think about it this way-- a healthy 2.8 makes 130hp at the crank, so probably right at 100 even at the wheels. A stock 3800 NA makes about 200 at the crank, and the Supercharged version makes 240 or so. By the time you spent the money and did the work to try to get the 2.8 to even get CLOSE to the output of the 3800, you'd be right around the cost and work it would have taken to do an actual engine swap. On top of that, IF you were able to get the 2.8 to make that kind of power, chance are it wouldn't last long.
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Mickeymickanthony
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Report this Post06-17-2016 12:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MickeymickanthonyClick Here to Email MickeymickanthonySend a Private Message to MickeymickanthonyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is the 3800 a direct swap? I've heard you have to move the starter and a whole bunch of other things for that swap? I also have a 350 crate engine that I was going to put in my nova laying around🤔
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Report this Post06-17-2016 12:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Napoleon_TaneriteSend a Private Message to Napoleon_TaneriteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Depends on your definition of a direct swap. It takes new mounts, new harness, re-plumbing coolant and vacuum lines, etc. Just about everything you need is readily available from various vendors, and the swap is very well documented.
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Report this Post06-17-2016 06:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 3800SC, Series 2 or Series 3, is probably the "best bang for the buck" swap there is. The starter is on the correct side for the Fiero installation, since the donors are all FWD vehicles. If the manual trans is wanted, the 3800 will bolt right up, but will require a custom flywheel.
As mentioned, mounts are available. Wiring harnesses are available. PCMs and tuning are available.

Conversely, I built an iron head 3.4 V6 (which is really an evolution of the 2.8). I had $800, just in head work. It had headers, a lumpy cam, all the previously mentioned head porting, etc. It probably made 200 HP. It was a blast to drive, in a Fiero, but certainly not cost effective.

Cheap and dirty is a 4.9 Cadillac V8 (which I have) but there is essentially no aftermarket available.

------------------
Raydar
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Report this Post06-17-2016 08:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
3800's are fantastic. Much more reliable, easy to fix, and modern than the 2.8. The swap is easy. I did my 3800sc swap when I was 17. All the work myself. And a clean setup. For the cost of a 300hp 2.8 you could have a 500hp 3800. That's very reliable and streetable. My goal is 500whp as a daily.

------------------
1987 Fiero GTX 3800 Turbo... My Build, ST3 Cam, Lowered, Wheels, and pics enjoy!http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

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Report this Post06-17-2016 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Napoleon_Tanerite:
I've never tried it, but I did a lot of research on the subject and the consensus seems to be to not waste your time and money trying to make power out of the 2.8. Either appreciate it for what it is, or swap it out.

Think about it this way-- a healthy 2.8 makes 130hp at the crank, so probably right at 100 even at the wheels. A stock 3800 NA makes about 200 at the crank, and the Supercharged version makes 240 or so. By the time you spent the money and did the work to try to get the 2.8 to even get CLOSE to the output of the 3800, you'd be right around the cost and work it would have taken to do an actual engine swap. On top of that, IF you were able to get the 2.8 to make that kind of power, chance are it wouldn't last long.


A stock components 2.8 would definitely not be reliable at 300 crank HP. Stock 2.8 makes about 135-140 at the crank. To make 300 HP on boost, you'red going to need about 17 PSI. The weak oiling system and other components of the 2.8 will probably result in a blown motor well before that.

Now, if you were to fix all the problems with the 2.8, it could probably be done reliably, but it would be very costly. A 3800 would certainly be cheaper, but if you want to boost it, you'll definitely want to start from the supercharged engine. Another option, if you want a slightly more direct swap (will mount using stock mounts), you could go for a 3500/3900 last gen 60 degree engine. They make 200-240 HP at the crank stock, and are a decent swap that can be done relatively cheap.
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engine man
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Report this Post06-17-2016 02:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wonder just how long a 2.8 with 20 pounds of boost would last with water / methanol injection would it be hours , days or even a month and what would fail first
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Report this Post06-17-2016 02:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

I wonder just how long a 2.8 with 20 pounds of boost would last with water / methanol injection would it be hours , days or even a month and what would fail first


Probably head gasket, then piston or rod failure (or both). That's assuming you started with 20 PSI on a stock engine right off the bat, and you could actually spin it up to 20 PSI before it blew up.
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Report this Post06-17-2016 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ahhh you could get it to the 20 pound but you dont want to blink or you will miss it lol
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Report this Post06-17-2016 02:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

ahhh you could get it to the 20 pound but you dont want to blink or you will miss it lol


Yeah. That said though, a small turbo making maybe 7-8 PSI max on a well maintained 2.8 would probably be decently reliable, though it's not going to get you 300 HP. Should be around 200 though.
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Report this Post06-17-2016 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MickeymickanthonyClick Here to Email MickeymickanthonySend a Private Message to MickeymickanthonyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Probably just going to run it stock for a while.. Very low miles, don't wanna get rid of a perfectly good engine. Then I'll probably just get a kit from Archie and swap in my 350. As far as handling goes.. Should I go for coolers? And if so, who's? Im wanting to stiffen it up pretty good..
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Report this Post06-17-2016 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mickeymickanthony:

Should I go for coolers?


Absolutely!


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Report this Post06-17-2016 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is the deal you can make the power with a 2.8 but for less than half the cost you could swap a V8 easily. The 2.8 was not built like todays engines and it will not take a lot of pressure.

There was the miller woods turbo kits but they did not make a lot of power. I think they got close to 200 HP with very low boost. You add much more you blow the head gaskets if you do not O ring the heads. Then you start to break other parts like cranks and rods etc.

I have an ecotec that is right at 300 HP in my HHR and it can see 23 PSI all day but it was built for it with a forged crank, I beam rods better oiling a very strong block and head etc. Lotus, GM and SAAB all worked on this engine to make it durable.

On the 2.8 either leave it stock or swap but if you do want to modify it just make sure you have a lot of money.

Adding a turbo with 300 HP would break a lot of parts. One Fiero guy in the 90's did that and it took several engines before it held up.

Also the issue with heat in the rear and the placement of an inter-cooler is another problem.

One mod I did like was a Supercharger. It was a rotory bolt on that was on the back of the engine with a long shaft bolted on the pulley at the front of the engine. It was in High Performance Pontiac back in the 90's, It made moderate gains no heat issues and he keep the pulley and boost to where it did not break much but again modest gains in power.
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Report this Post06-17-2016 11:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Spiders1Click Here to Email Spiders1Send a Private Message to Spiders1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You could get lucky and get a 3800 series II Monday motor like I swapped and it laid 259hp and 310tq with no mods.

I say 3800 swap.

------------------
86 GT 3.8 SC/ 5 speed FWD Getrag 3.92 gear swap

91 GMC Syclone 20k original miles

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Mickeymickanthony
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Report this Post06-18-2016 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MickeymickanthonyClick Here to Email MickeymickanthonySend a Private Message to MickeymickanthonyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
has anyone dropped in a hemi?😈
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Report this Post06-19-2016 09:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mickeymickanthony:

has anyone dropped in a hemi?😈


Different animal...

You're concerned with "direct swap"?? A hemi would be a "you're on your own, pal" swap...
Not impossible, but never been done and nobody would have any experience to help you with it.

I've been in the "nobody can help me" camp - twice!

3800 S/C is your best bet...
(the one I'd go with if I were "doing over")

------------------
My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 06-19-2016).]

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Report this Post06-19-2016 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierosound:


Different animal...

You're concerned with "direct swap"?? A hemi would be a "you're on your own, pal" swap...
Not impossible, but never been done and nobody would have any experience to help you with it.

I've been in the "nobody can help me" camp - twice!

3800 S/C is your best bet...
(the one I'd go with if I were "doing over")


I went through that when I stuck a 472 Caddy engine in my 66 Chevy 1/2 ton. All I got was "it can't be done". Best day in my life was the first run around the block when I proved them wrong. Drove that everyday for 15yrs.
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Report this Post06-19-2016 11:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:


I went through that when I stuck a 472 Caddy engine in my 66 Chevy 1/2 ton. All I got was "it can't be done". Best day in my life was the first run around the block when I proved them wrong. Drove that everyday for 15yrs.


i know about this with my Audi V8 my Brother in law told me i could never get it to run and it is fun when you get it done and shove it down their throat

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 06-19-2016).]

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Mickeymickanthony
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Report this Post06-19-2016 12:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MickeymickanthonyClick Here to Email MickeymickanthonySend a Private Message to MickeymickanthonyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know nothing is a direct swap.. That last one was just a joke. I'm most likely going to run it stock for a while and then swap my 350.

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Report this Post06-19-2016 06:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwClick Here to Email KhwSend a Private Message to KhwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mickeymickanthony:

I know nothing is a direct swap.. That last one was just a joke. I'm most likely going to run it stock for a while and then swap my 350.


Nice option especially with so much aftermarket support for a 350 still out there. Biggest issue is the cost for the adapter kit but the kit might leave other engine options open in the future if the 350 isn't enough. There have been a lot of different swaps done over the years from VW TDI to Ford SHO V6 to a Nissan 4 cyl (don't remember which engine exactly off the top of my head) and so on. I seem to remeber a Audi or BMW 12 cyl in the works also but I don't know if it was ever finished and a Audi A8 that may not be complete yet. There is or was a VW VR6 but I think the owner was planning to do a different swap and am not sure if it's still around. I seem to recall him offering the VR6 up for sale but I'm getting old and my memory may be failing.

Pretty much just about anything "can" be done it's just a matter of if the cost isn't to extensive for the benefit the owner wants.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 06-20-2016).]

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Report this Post06-19-2016 10:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As pointed out the cost of modifying the 2.8L or the direct fit 3.4L P/R engine to get solid horsepower is not worth the cost. You will never get to 300HP but 225 is possible but with forged pistons, cam/kit, head work, larger injectors, headers, a high performance ignition, larger injectors,lots of machine shop work, and a turbo system with 10-12 psi of boost. A set up like this cost me over $4,500 . Money not well spent.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
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" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-19-2016).]

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Report this Post06-20-2016 12:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I see no prices in this thread thus far... so here are some numbers to consider.

To swap in a 3800 (Arguably the cheapest and easiest of all the swaps to do), it is going to cost you a MINIMUM of $2,000. You need the engine, transmission, custom motor mounts, custom wiring harness, computer with customized programming and tons of little stuff along the way. A closer estimate is around $3,000 to be able to hop in, turn the key, and go.

I am just about at the finish line with my swap. I had done my best to document everything. Have a look at my build thread, starting at THIS POST to get an idea of the process. In THIS POST I have a breakdown of what some of the parts have cost, to get a rough idea what you are in for.
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Report this Post06-20-2016 04:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Perhaps a GM saab engine 2.8 if spins right way with larger turbo could make 300hp. Thinking if it did work someone would have done it.
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Report this Post06-20-2016 12:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Australian:

Perhaps a GM saab engine 2.8 if spins right way with larger turbo could make 300hp. Thinking if it did work someone would have done it.


Don't even need a bigger turbo. Some of them already make 300+ HP stock, and most of the ones that don't, would make it with a simple tune.

bmwguru was swapping one into his car, but I don't know if he's got it done and tuned yet. I expect once he's done, it will be making over 300 HP.
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Report this Post06-20-2016 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
I see no prices in this thread thus far... so here are some numbers to consider.

To swap in a 3800 (Arguably the cheapest and easiest of all the swaps to do), it is going to cost you a MINIMUM of $2,000. You need the engine, transmission, custom motor mounts, custom wiring harness, computer with customized programming and tons of little stuff along the way. A closer estimate is around $3,000 to be able to hop in, turn the key, and go.

I am just about at the finish line with my swap. I had done my best to document everything. Have a look at my build thread, starting at THIS POST to get an idea of the process. In THIS POST I have a breakdown of what some of the parts have cost, to get a rough idea what you are in for.


To be fair, prices can vary quite wildly. A 3800 can be done for much cheaper than what you're into it for, and it can be done for a lot more as well (see the high-HP turbo builds with lots of $$$ in trans upgrades, meth injection, etc…

The cheapest/easiest swap which isn't exactly stock, would be the pushrod 3.4. The later generation 60 degree pushrod engines would probably be next on the list, as far as cost/ease, along with the 3.4 DOHC, as they can still use the stock engine mounts. Then the 3800 on average is probably next in the list; can be a little more costly if you want automatic, more so if you're converting from a manual, and a little less costly if you use a Fiero manual trans. The Caddy 4.9 V8 is probably in similar range cost wise to the 3800, but is much cheaper and easier than almost any other V8. An LS4 is probably the cheapest modern V8 one could do, but is a little bit more work and cost than a 3800.
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MulletproofMonk
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Report this Post06-21-2016 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MulletproofMonkClick Here to visit MulletproofMonk's HomePageSend a Private Message to MulletproofMonkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have built 2 3800n/a's, 1 3800sc (and 1 build in process) and a 4.9L V8. I also purchased a 3800sc.

The 4.9L V8 has the sweet V8 sound and doesn't weigh much more then the stock V6 if you are doing a manual swap. It's power band comes up fast and levels out even faster...

The 3800na was an auto, I never kept my foot out of it and it was very, very fun. Oh, plus it burned 87 octane and got 27-29mpg. This was my daily driver for 2 years until I got rear ended.

The 3800sc I have now is quicker then the 3800na was, but I find that I don't seem to put my foot in it as hard as the 3800na. I personally don't care for the whine of the supercharger and miss the NA, especially when I have to put high octane in it. Doesn't seem like much, but this car only seems to get 23-25mpg.

I agree with JohnWPB, the install will cost you more then people say. Yes, I have seen some of these threads with "I did a swap for $200!"... and I don't buy into it. I have a spread sheet with every penny and bolt/nut part number that I put into my car... of course I made my swap clean and it looked like the motor came with the car...

Not sure where you are in Ohio, but I am south east of Dayton.

------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel
My HUD install thread
Modified stock air canister and base to 3.5 inch for 3800na

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