I made this video because I've seen this topic pop up on a few forums over the years. See for yourself how effective anti-seize is at reducing friction and leading to possible over tightening of your lug nuts. Experimentally I observed a 30% increase in preload with just a dab of anti-seize on the threads. I personally never apply anti-seize to my wheel studs / nuts. It could be quite dangerous!
I still do but only on my truck due to the mess it makes on the wheel.
However, I have a buddy that is really up on DOT laws and he tells me that it is illegal to use. Now he is referring to trucks and I can't remember what the logic was but he said to only use a drop of oil.
My understanding is that it's not a good idea for the reason of over-torquing. Torque specs are based on dry threads, not lubricated. Over-torquing leads to metal fatigue. Kit
My understanding is that it's not a good idea for the reason of over-torquing. Torque specs are based on dry threads, not lubricated. Over-torquing leads to metal fatigue. Kit
I think that may be what my buddy was saying. He said the drop of oil (or a dab of white grease) will keep the threads from rusting.
Also, he said that never-seize dries out and cakes up which is counter productive. He also hates never seize.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 02-22-2016).]
1. Yup. Throw out any Torque specs for bolts and nuts used with ANY lube, Anti-Sieze, or even dirt/rust in the threads. Because you are correct. Lugs and most others, the specs are for Clean Dry threads.
MOST fasteners Never have Wet torque specs because exactly what lube is used can effect the spec. Thread Sealer will act as a lube too. Be very careful when torquing bolts that need sealers. Example: Many Water Pump bolts w/ threads exposed to coolant.
2. Worse. Many will add lube/A-S on the cone of lugs on purpose. Cone are not only to center the lugs but is a locking method so very hard to get loose. IOW Cone interface behave as lock nut. (Lug Centric vs Hub Centric See my Cave, Tires )
Between lubing two areas, Very easy to stress the lugs to the breaking point and Not only the lugs but the wheels and hub too. You can bend/break the wheel, brake rotors/drums, and hub for the overloaded lugs.
Many use A-S on Spark Plugs have same problem. They go Way too tight and often break the plugs (now or down the road) or strip the hole in Al heads. If you really want A-S then you have to guess at torque spec. Engines w/ cone seal plugs like Fiero are very easy to break the plugs etc. (AllData Haynes and maybe FSM is 7-15 ft/lb for clean dry threads.)
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Yep......NOTHING on lug studs...no anti seize, no oil, no grease...no NOTHING. I have put penetrating oil on rusted tite ones, but always spray brake cleaner on them afterward.
No antisieze here on studs. Do know a few that use just a small amount of it between the wheel and the rotor, or drums. Also between hubs and rotors. Naturally only on the contact surfaces. Helps if your not rotating tires or doing brake jobs regularly. Not a problem at our garage.
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 02-24-2016).]
While I agree that clean dry bolt threads would be ideal, sometimes it just isn't practical. For example, here in Florida the humidity is high year-round. And it rains a lot. Keeping bolt threads clean and dry is an exercise in futility, unless you have an air-conditioned garage, and never drive your car.
So this creates a dilemma, have my wheel studs possibly break from over-tightening or have them possibly break from rusted-up lug nuts. I hate dealing with rusty bolts, so I chose the former. I also understood that putting oil on the threads would affect the torque spec. So I did some homework, and figured out a new torque spec. It's been over 10 years, and no problems. Plus, no more rusty wheel studs!
Originally posted by Blacktree: I also understood that putting oil on the threads would affect the torque spec. So I did some homework, and figured out a new torque spec. It's been over 10 years, and no problems. Plus, no more rusty wheel studs!
I am curious about this, for any application, is there a formula or chart for it?
Originally posted by Blacktree: While I agree that clean dry bolt threads would be ideal, sometimes it just isn't practical. For example, here in Florida the humidity is high year-round. And it rains a lot. Keeping bolt threads clean and dry is an exercise in futility, unless you have an air-conditioned garage, and never drive your car.
So this creates a dilemma, have my wheel studs possibly break from over-tightening or have them possibly break from rusted-up lug nuts. I hate dealing with rusty bolts, so I chose the former. I also understood that putting oil on the threads would affect the torque spec. So I did some homework, and figured out a new torque spec. It's been over 10 years, and no problems. Plus, no more rusty wheel studs!
Sorry. Is BS statement for most wheels and lugs. GM lugs w/ plastic covers like Fiero uses seal out allot of problems. Good aftermarket and OE Acorn style lug nuts Seals out allot of problems too.
The Worst problems I seen are steel rim and plain nuts with Wheel Covers. Wheel covers often keep moisture trap under them... moisture + dirt/salt will attack them. (Some covers are very good at keep water out. This depends on the cover used and rim design.)
Fl isn't unique to salt spray etc. Delmarva see same issues because 2 bays and ocean. Allot of NJ and others places gets same for Bays and Ocean. Just 1 example: NJ barrier islands/peninsulas can rot out things fast from salt. MANY states are heavy road salt users and take weeks to months to wash away salt from the roads. Bad winters often means road and cars are never free of road salt. NY and others have salt grass growing next to roads because of high salt use.
Having said that, I admit that I use a very small dab of anti-seize on every wheel lug. I then use a torque wrench and set it for 80 ft lbs. Over the course of 45 years of working on my own cars, I've never found any of my lug nuts getting loose.
Although I agree with every warning we're reading here, I'd hazard to guess that there's a far greater chance of wheel lugs being stretched and ruined from over-tightening lug nuts with an impact gun.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-24-2016).]
A DIY setup using a tension gauge and a torque wrench was used for real-world testing.
Long story short: I decided to reduce torque specs by about 35%. So for example, the one car with a 100 ft-lb torque spec now uses 65 ft-lb with anti-seize. The one with a 80 ft-lb torque spec now uses 55 ft-lb with anti-seize.
Do I recommend other people doing this? NOPE! Try it at your own risk.
Edit to add: I also think it's important to note that you should NEVER put any lubricant on the mating surfaces of the lug nut and wheel, where they touch each other. NEVER. Lube should only go on the threads.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-24-2016).]
living in the rust belt... I never had an issue with getting lug nuts off. Worse case, spray some PB blaster and hit with 12v impact wrench. The thing spins up and hits the nut and frees it. Better than a breaker bar!
Worse case, spray some PB blaster and hit with 12v impact wrench. The thing spins up and hits the nut and frees it. Better than a breaker bar!
I can recall using a breaker bar years ago on lug nuts that had corroded in place. Between the weird vibration and the screaming (not by me ... by the nuts as they were forced to turn), it was enough to convince me to start using a dab of anti-seize. I was convinced at the time that the wheel lugs were about to snap off!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-25-2016).]
I can recall using a breaker bar years ago on lug nuts that had corroded in place. Between the weird vibration and the screaming (by the nuts as they were forced to turn... not by me ), it was enough to convince me to start using a dab of anti-seize. I was convinced at the time that the wheel lugs were about to snap off!
Removed lugs on a 2500 GM truck when a breaker bar wouldn't. Didn't even break a sweat....I was amazed that is worked, seriously. I father bought one at Goodwill and we joked about wasting $5. Afterwards, we said it was a steal at that price.
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 02-25-2016).]
Do they make an allowance for that when torqueing the nuts? That's the key to staying within the designed tensile load of the studs...
All I can tell you is that they've been doing it a hell of lot longer than you & I put together and they've been doing it with tools not slide rules. Working on cars is not rocket science but I've seen people try to apply it.
If people analyzed every move they made on a car it would never get done.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 02-25-2016).]
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: Working on cars is not rocket science but I've seen people try to apply it.
Granted. The average, not particularly well experienced back-yard mechanic is still probably well advised to use the torque values specified in the factory service manuals at least for "important" fasteners.
The integrity of the suspension, steering and braking systems at 80 mph on a busy highway merits consideration.
Original factory vehicle assembly tools are calibrated for their specific applications. It's probably safer to follow suit.
I've been 152 mph and feel safer on the track in something I built without using rocket science, than 45 mph on a local road with other cars that have factory warranties.
Lol! And I suspect you've been at car shows where you were appalled at some of the build quality on display & wouldn't park beside some of the 'home built' vehicles... let alone ride in them Some people possess an appropriate inherent mechanical aptitude, such as you. Others...
Lol! And I suspect you've been at car shows where you were appalled at some of the build quality on display & wouldn't park beside some of the 'home built' vehicles... let alone ride in them Some people possess an appropriate inherent mechanical aptitude, such as you. Others...
I never had a lug nut loosen up in 45 years of driving. When I put them on, on the side of the road I use an X Wrench. At the shop I use air and impact wrench. the only thing I have ever had a problem with is lug nuts freezing because they are of a different material than the rims, Steel lug nut and steel studs and aluminum mag wheels, I try to put a dab of antiseize on the matting surfaces where they come in contact with each other, the part of the nut that touches the rim. It keeps the two dissimilar metals from seizing.
I also carry a cheater pipe in all our vehicles for those times when the X wrench just doesn't cut it, works great for those stuck bolts out on the road. Another trick is to tap the X wrench before even trying to take the nut off, just set the right socket of the lug wrench on the nut and give it a couple of wraps before ever trying to turn them. I check my impact guns torque at different settings on a regular basis and 2 on my impact gun is 80 lbs when ever I check it after preluding the impact gun every time I use it for lug nuts.
edit to add, Ah never mind I forgot.
Oh ya, now I remember,
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Excellent video. Thanks for producing it.
Having said that, I admit that I use a very small dab of anti-seize on every wheel lug. I then use a torque wrench and set it for 80 ft lbs. Over the course of 45 years of working on my own cars, I've never found any of my lug nuts getting loose.
Although I agree with every warning we're reading here, I'd hazard to guess that there's a far greater chance of wheel lugs being stretched and ruined from over-tightening lug nuts with an impact gun.
I have never stripped a lug nut or stud using an impact gun, they have adjustments for how much torque they will apply, that is 2 on mine for putting lug nuts on and 4 for getting them off in most cases, but 2 will take them off most times, I just don't feel like listening to the impact gun banging away for mins. just to get one of the 5 or 6 nuts off.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-26-2016).]
...impact gun, they have adjustments for how much torque they will apply, that is 2 on mine for putting lug nuts on and 4 for getting them off in most cases
And we both know the guy at the local garage has his impact gun set on 10 all the time.
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I have never stripped a lug nut or stud using an impact gun...
Just as a point of clarification, that's not what I'm afraid an impact gun can do.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Although I agree with every warning we're reading here, I'd hazard to guess that there's a far greater chance of wheel lugs being stretched and ruined from over-tightening lug nuts with an impact gun.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-27-2016).]
My first Fiero had to have all its wheel studs replaced, because the lug nuts were severely over-torqued. The wheel studs actually started snapping while I was driving it! The tires had recently been replaced. The kid at the tire shop probably had his impact gun cranked up to 11.
So yes, setting bolt torque to get the proper clamping force *IS* important! Screw it up, and bad things happen. That's why I spent the effort to develop a new torque spec to use with anti-seize.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-28-2016).]
For over 30 years I have been turning wrenches on cars/trucks. Every single vehicle I have ever pulled wheels off of for service have gotten white lithium grease on the studs before reassembly. When I was young I had seen this recommended several times by reputable mechanics which is why I adopted the practice. I have never had a problem, nor have any lug nuts ever come loose on a vehicle that I lubricated the wheel studs.
I never had a lug nut loosen up in 45 years of driving. When I put them on, on the side of the road I use an X Wrench. At the shop I use air and impact wrench. the only thing I have ever had a problem with is lug nuts freezing because they are of a different material than the rims, Steel lug nut and steel studs and aluminum mag wheels, I try to put a dab of antiseize on the matting surfaces where they come in contact with each other, the part of the nut that touches the rim. It keeps the two dissimilar metals from seizing.
I also carry a cheater pipe in all our vehicles for those times when the X wrench just doesn't cut it, works great for those stuck bolts out on the road. Another trick is to tap the X wrench before even trying to take the nut off, just set the right socket of the lug wrench on the nut and give it a couple of wraps before ever trying to turn them. I check my impact guns torque at different settings on a regular basis and 2 on my impact gun is 80 lbs when ever I check it after preluding the impact gun every time I use it for lug nuts.
edit to add, Ah never mind I forgot.
Oh ya, now I remember,
I have never stripped a lug nut or stud using an impact gun, they have adjustments for how much torque they will apply, that is 2 on mine for putting lug nuts on and 4 for getting them off in most cases, but 2 will take them off most times, I just don't feel like listening to the impact gun banging away for mins. just to get one of the 5 or 6 nuts off.
Steve
I guess most of this applies to me too. But I do not use anti-seize on cars. Only on my boat trailer. Also I do not care if lugs are wet, dry etc. But then I do all the work on my cars so I know how to tighten it. Only problem is when I get new tires installed. Sometimes those are a PITA to remove later but the big helper pipe on the wrench will take it off if the impact gun can't. I only hear of broken lugs or loose nuts from people that frequently rely on shops to do their car work.
I only hear of broken lugs or loose nuts from people that frequently rely on shops to do their car work.
Interesting, isn't it, that it's the "pros" who often are the cause of these issues.
Yes, there are certainly highly qualified mechanics who know exactly what they're doing... but unfortunately there also appear to be a great number of unqualified uncaring hacks working in auto repair shops.
One of the few auto repair tasks I can't do myself is mounting and balancing tires. I got tired of dealing with over-torqued lug nuts, so now I take the wheels off the car and bring them in. The techs at the shop don't mind.
One of the few auto repair tasks I can't do myself is mounting and balancing tires.
I solved that problem after a tire "tech" didn't properly install a valve stem when I had some expensive new Michelins installed. The stem fell out at 76 mph costing me another expensive new tire.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 02-28-2016).]
I've been 152 mph and feel safer on the track in something I built without using rocket science, than 45 mph on a local road with other cars that have factory warranties.
It's a wonder it hasn't blown up then, given your apparent hatred of math and logic. How did you ever manage to degree a camshaft without a slide rule (a degree wheel is just a circular slide rule, after all)?
For over 30 years I have been turning wrenches on cars/trucks. Every single vehicle I have ever pulled wheels off of for service have gotten white lithium grease on the studs before reassembly. When I was young I had seen this recommended several times by reputable mechanics which is why I adopted the practice. I have never had a problem, nor have any lug nuts ever come loose on a vehicle that I lubricated the wheel studs.
What torque setting do you use on your Fiero wheels?
Interesting, isn't it, that it's the "pros" who often are the cause of these issues.
Yes, there are certainly highly qualified mechanics who know exactly what they're doing... but unfortunately there also appear to be a great number of unqualified uncaring hacks working in auto repair shops.
First most pros don't have a clue about anything, they are just tire monkeys, anyone ever had the mechanic they trust do any tire work?
No I didn't think so, you go to the tire store, the tire store employees are supposed to know how to mount and dismount and repair tires. Some use those torque extensions on their impact guns that are supposed to work, don't know never used one myself. It is a rarity to see a tire store actually use a torque wrench today.
I did find one place a few years back but that was by far not the norm. But this place did all size tires as well all the way up to farm and heavy equipment, 18 wheeler tires.
... by the nuts as they were forced to turn), it was enough to convince me to start using a dab of anti-seize. I was convinced at the time that the wheel lugs were about to snap off!
Others... 
