“Last night SEMA announced a pending EPA rule that, in the interest of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, would “prohibit conversion of vehicles originally designed for on-road use into racecars” and “make the sale of certain products for use on such vehicles illegal,” in their words.
Naturally, this sparked a wildfire of controversy in the tuning and racing communities. Suddenly the ability to participate in grassroots racing series like LeMons, Spec E30, AER and more seemed in doubt. But it wasn’t immediately clear, in the pages and pages of regulations and proposed red tape, what the rule change really meant.
The effect of this change, McDonald said, is not only the possible banning of racing parts that don’t meet emissions, but also the act of modifying your car in such a way...
Basically, the EPA wants to make clear that an exemption for turning nonroad vehicles (and engines) into competitive vehicles does not apply to your street car, even if it’s a track-only car.
it could put a meteor-sized dent in the $36 billion parts industry—not to mention grassroots racers everywhere.
The EPA could issue a final rule by July, or possibly longer. After that, it becomes law—no Congressional approval required. SEMA, however, will continue to oppose the effort through lobbying and possibly litigation. http://jalopnik.com/the-epa...explained-1758111546
your link to the petition is screwy. thanks for sharing.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
i keep looking into this and all it says is your car needs to meet some type of emmissions. And most people think to go faster they need to remove their cat. It is pretty easy to leave a cat on a car to meet emissions when your racing due to many of the free flowing cat's that are out there. I dont mind the issue if that is all that they are trying to do. Course i live in california and i have to live with emissions crap. But, a standard emissions level not like in california much much lower could be better across the board for everyone wanting to clean up the air. If you look at most professional racing they all run a cat it is part of the league rules.
there's alot of screwy stuff in there. I don't trust the epa or carb. they're regulations beat around the bush and don't really promote clean cars. if they wanted clean cars, the inspections would be based on what comes out of the tailpipe alone. if it blows clean, it rides. instead there's all sorts of crazy regulations on engine swaps that in most cases make a car cleaner. like putting an LSx in a older car, even without a cat. it's going to run cleaner and more efficient than an old TBI 305.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Originally posted by ericjon262: there's alot of screwy stuff in there. I don't trust the epa or carb. they're regulations beat around the bush and don't really promote clean cars. if they wanted clean cars, the inspections would be based on what comes out of the tailpipe alone. if it blows clean, it rides. instead there's all sorts of crazy regulations on engine swaps that in most cases make a car cleaner. like putting an LSx in a older car, even without a cat. it's going to run cleaner and more efficient than an old TBI 305.
I think it's about time they did this, really.
As for things like putting an LSx in an older car, it won't necessarily burn cleaner, even without a cat. It might be more efficient, but not necessarily emit less. There are way too many variables in play to make such a broad statement as fact. Also, any car which originally came with a cat, is by law, required to have a cat.
The real problem with regulations on emissions and equipment, is enforcement. Most places in the US have at best, a visual inspection. Also, VW pretty flagrantly proved that a simple sniffer test isn't enough.
i keep looking into this and all it says is your car needs to meet some type of emmissions. And most people think to go faster they need to remove their cat. It is pretty easy to leave a cat on a car to meet emissions when your racing due to many of the free flowing cat's that are out there. I dont mind the issue if that is all that they are trying to do. Course i live in california and i have to live with emissions crap. But, a standard emissions level not like in california much much lower could be better across the board for everyone wanting to clean up the air. If you look at most professional racing they all run a cat it is part of the league rules.
That's not what they're stating. Each vehicle sold in the US for use on public roads needs to be certified by the EPA. The certification is done on the entire system, from the fuel tank to the engine, to the electronic controls. Removing or modifying any part of that entire system will void EPA certification unless it's replaced with an OEM or certified replacement part. It's like CARB on steroids. So a 2015 Mustang with a 5.0 was certified with all of its OEM parts. Whatever they declare to be emissions-related (think heads, exhaust, ECU flashing, etc) will be illegal because it changes the conditions under which the original car was tested, and they're not going to test every part and possible combination to ensure compliance.
im all for if it passes the sniffer we are good. if you can get addons that provide more HP and it runs more mpg and cleaner like a 3800 swap over a 2.8. i am all for it. but when it comes to you cannot run a different engine in that configuration and then only have a 2 foot exhaust out the back. That is just not good for the environment. I have a feeling this epa position has a lot to do with what is going on in china and what VW just did with sneaky ecm setups. I dont think the epa wants to stop people from modifying their cars. Just get them to run cleaner than rolling coal....
As for things like putting an LSx in an older car, it won't necessarily burn cleaner, even without a cat. It might be more efficient, but not necessarily emit less. There are way too many variables in play to make such a broad statement as fact. Also, any car which originally came with a cat, is by law, required to have a cat.
The real problem with regulations on emissions and equipment, is enforcement. Most places in the US have at best, a visual inspection. Also, VW pretty flagrantly proved that a simple sniffer test isn't enough.
I would see this as a precursor to OBDIII - or a system that actively monitors the emissions themselves, and possibly cripples or disables the vehicle until problems are corrected. I can see them mandating an onboard sniffer. Right now, OBDII just keeps it in stoich, makes sure the cat's not dead, and monitors EGR and EVAP as a nod toward compliance.
Consider also that such a system could use the CAN bus to monitor BCM, ABS, or any other modules, as well as store VIN and engine serial number data. It's possible to code a PCM to refuse to start the engine if it's not in the right chassis, connected to the right transmission. Of course, hacks will be found, and it will be necessary for the manufacturer to reprogram for replacement engines and transmissions, but it won't pass the most cursory inspection if it's a hack. People will always find ways to skirt the law - it's the nature of hot-rodding. 98% of the population driving Camrys won't care.
[This message has been edited by Gary W (edited 02-10-2016).]
I would see this as a precursor to OBDIII - or a system that actively monitors the emissions themselves, and possibly cripples or disables the vehicle until problems are corrected. I can see them mandating an onboard sniffer. Right now, OBDII just keeps it in stoich, makes sure the cat's not dead, and monitors EGR and EVAP as a nod toward compliance.
Consider also that such a system could use the CAN bus to monitor BCM, ABS, or any other modules, as well as store VIN and engine serial number data. It's possible to code a PCM to refuse to start the engine if it's not in the right chassis, connected to the right transmission. Of course, hacks will be found, and it will be necessary for the manufacturer to reprogram for replacement engines and transmissions, but it won't pass the most cursory inspection if it's a hack. People will always find ways to skirt the law - it's the nature of hot-rodding. 98% of the population driving Camrys won't care.
Rented a Penske 26' truck last year. If it ran out of BlueDef, the engine would shut off. So what you have mentioned above is already happening to some vehicles, but I expect it to expand(like the gov't).
Originally posted by mmeyer86gt/gtp: I dont think the epa wants to stop people from modifying their cars. Just get them to run cleaner than rolling coal....
Exactly. People will always cry wolf about this, and EPA overstepping their bounds, but won't say a single word about how their preferred candidates are seriously overstepping individual rights on subjects like marriage and abortion. The EPA is actually doing what government should be doing, in terms of regulations here. This isn't about individual freedoms. It's about public health.
I highly doubt the EPA will be staking out racetracks with inspection tents. This is just personal opinion, but my belief here is that they are gunning for the aftermarket manufacturers of what can be considered "grey market" parts. Manufacturers like Edelbrock or ZZP, or anyone who makes performance parts are in the crosshairs. Look at the fines. Follow the money. $37,500 fine for each part or component if installed by a shop, $3750 per item if installed by an individual. If someone builds a street racer and a cursory inspection by EPA somewhere incurs $200K in fines, you know the manufacturers will be dragged into a lawsuit. And if they sold parts without confirming that the buyer was not modifying a street car, they are complicit. How many of them will expose themselves to that sort of liability? The performance parts market will dry up, other than sales to established race shops.
It's an attempt to shut down the aftermarket entirely through intimidation. The fed can't enforce state inspections or guidelines - hell, here in Florida you can have raw gas pouring out the tailpipe and nobody cares. They don't like that, and they're going to find a way to shut down the coal rollers, etc.
I just say if you dont have emissions checks where you are, how are they going to know anything. The government is responsible for more foul emissions than anyone else anyhow.
We are being made to believe that government can magically cure all of societies ills. What ever happened to the right to be left alone?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I just say if you dont have emissions checks where you are, how are they going to know anything. The government is responsible for more foul emissions than anyone else anyhow.
They know this, and they know and pretty much state in their clarification that they can't enforce it on individuals. They will never stop hot-rodders from cutting out their cats or disabling EGR, even though any gains from that are minimal at best. What they can do, what they are compelled to do, is legislate. Create more laws and more restrictions and put more power in government hands. That's all they exist for. The fact that this is a clarification of an existing law is a clear sign to me that they want the business of modification to die, so they can say "Look, we took steps to clean up the air!". They will never be able to come after individuals, but they could probably put economic pressure on states to follow federal inspection guidelines.
What is really getting missed here by most is the overstep of a government agency.
The present administration has gone to the point that if they can not pass a law they will use executive order and or reinterpret laws already on the books to fit their needs.
The problem here is the law was written with the intent this would pertain to road cars only. The EPA now says it pertains to all cars period. That was never the intent of the Congress and Senate that passed the original laws.
The danger here is that it is not legal or constructional to change the meaning of a law with out passing a new law through the regulating bodies of the Senate and House.
If it were legal to do this then were does it stop? Whom ever is in charge can just pose their own definitions for laws and basically take control of many of the freedoms we have. This is how many other countries lost their freedoms to dictators and or socialist governments.
Odds are this will be taken by SEMA to the SCOTUS and they will strike it down just as the other moves the EPA and President have done on Coal and other EPA matters.
While I think we all like clean air and water the people in charge now are not using a balanced approach that will not damage lives, jobs or economics. They are for the most bureaucrats that make a lot of money and extreme feelings on anything Green and will not use a balance approach to improve things with out Fn things up for everyone.
The EPA is now using their own redefined Clean Water Act laws to control farms and take property. This too will end up going to SCOTUS and be struck down.
If not for the conservative leaning court we would be in danger of losing some of our constitutional rights.
We are at the tipping point right now and I can see if the wrong people get elected or on the court we could lose a lot of rights in this country we now enjoy.
This is not some Tea Party thing this is a case where there are many who want the government to control every aspect of your life. No one will come in and conquer us as we will give it away a piece at a time to those we elect.
We must remember Hitler and Mussolini were both elected just as Castro was.
When someone promises you everything time to really suspect they are up to no good and they will tax you and regulate you into oblivion being a slave to the state.
The EPA could issue a final rule by July, or possibly longer. After that, it becomes law—no Congressional approval required. SEMA, however, will continue to oppose the effort through lobbying and possibly litigation.
Technically speaking the EPA, which is a part of the executive branch, does not create laws... they only enforce the existing laws. These enforcement actions come and go all the time. Whether or not they stick is the question.
What is really getting missed here by most is the overstep of a government agency.
The present administration has gone to the point that if they can not pass a law they will use executive order and or reinterpret laws already on the books to fit their needs.
The problem here is the law was written with the intent this would pertain to road cars only. The EPA now says it pertains to all cars period. That was never the intent of the Congress and Senate that passed the original laws.
The danger here is that it is not legal or constructional to change the meaning of a law with out passing a new law through the regulating bodies of the Senate and House.
If it were legal to do this then were does it stop? Whom ever is in charge can just pose their own definitions for laws and basically take control of many of the freedoms we have. This is how many other countries lost their freedoms to dictators and or socialist governments.
Odds are this will be taken by SEMA to the SCOTUS and they will strike it down just as the other moves the EPA and President have done on Coal and other EPA matters.
While I think we all like clean air and water the people in charge now are not using a balanced approach that will not damage lives, jobs or economics. They are for the most bureaucrats that make a lot of money and extreme feelings on anything Green and will not use a balance approach to improve things with out Fn things up for everyone.
The EPA is now using their own redefined Clean Water Act laws to control farms and take property. This too will end up going to SCOTUS and be struck down.
If not for the conservative leaning court we would be in danger of losing some of our constitutional rights.
We are at the tipping point right now and I can see if the wrong people get elected or on the court we could lose a lot of rights in this country we now enjoy.
This is not some Tea Party thing this is a case where there are many who want the government to control every aspect of your life. No one will come in and conquer us as we will give it away a piece at a time to those we elect.
We must remember Hitler and Mussolini were both elected just as Castro was.
When someone promises you everything time to really suspect they are up to no good and they will tax you and regulate you into oblivion being a slave to the state.
And even though I am going to be swapping in a newer, cleaner, more efficient engine into my 88 GT (96 3.4 DOHC running OBDii) the swap involves such things as a custom tune, high flow cat, aftermarket mufflers, or God forbid, maybe a high flow air filter.......many of those parts could be considered 'illegal racing parts' and many of the companies that make such things litigated out of business by the EPA under these regulations.
This is not about the microscopic, practically un-measurable impact modified cars and racing has on air quality or the impact on the questionable science of man-caused climate change! This is about government overreach into our lives. It is about an executive branch that not only picks and chooses which laws to enforce, but when those laws do not support their political agenda, create their own in total disregard of the Congress and our Constitution!
Elections have consequences! Engage in the political process! Be informed, register and vote your conscience if you do not already!
Believe it or not, the EPA really wants to do the right thing and simply protect the environment.
If you want to complain about anything, the real problem here is the industry lobbyists. It's not the government or EPA that wants to control your vehicles, it's the manufacturers. Blame Ford/GM/Chrysler/etc… here. It's their lobbyists that created the proposed changes to regulation. They want to create mandatory vendor lock-in, and force you to buy only original equipment parts, whether it's performance parts, or replacement parts.
It doesn't matter who you vote for. The lobbyists aren't elected, and the corporations are going to push for the same legislature regardless of who is in the White House or Capitol Hill.
Absolutely. When you see corporate farms dumping pesticides into the air or animal waste into the water supply and then the EPA starts eyeballing "race cars" there is only one reason that's happening. Because lobbyists for the farms want the EPA to look the other way, and lobbyists for the auto manufacturers want more lock-in with their products. You don't get such insane dichotomy as a result of one person or group with an agenda, you get obviously conflicting activities because two different groups with two different interests are pushing two different agendas with money. Everybody blames the EPA when they legislate old cars off the road, but nobody bothers to consider the other side of that equation: Who stands to benefit when new Heavy Duty emissions laws hit the books? Peterbilt. Because they get to sell all sorts of operators brand new compliant trucks.
The only way we get a government that we can intelligently evaluate and have a real discussion about is by eliminating all the shadowy lobbyists - who are not only totally opaque but also virtually invisible. Nobody sees what strings they're pulling or why they're pulling them. That's a problem.
Absolutely. When you see corporate farms dumping pesticides into the air or animal waste into the water supply and then the EPA starts eyeballing "race cars" there is only one reason that's happening. Because lobbyists for the farms want the EPA to look the other way, and lobbyists for the auto manufacturers want more lock-in with their products. You don't get such insane dichotomy as a result of one person or group with an agenda, you get obviously conflicting activities because two different groups with two different interests are pushing two different agendas with money. Everybody blames the EPA when they legislate old cars off the road, but nobody bothers to consider the other side of that equation: Who stands to benefit when new Heavy Duty emissions laws hit the books? Peterbilt. Because they get to sell all sorts of operators brand new compliant trucks.
The only way we get a government that we can intelligently evaluate and have a real discussion about is by eliminating all the shadowy lobbyists - who are not only totally opaque but also virtually invisible. Nobody sees what strings they're pulling or why they're pulling them. That's a problem.
Believe it or not, the EPA really wants to do the right thing and simply protect the environment.
If you want to complain about anything, the real problem here is the industry lobbyists. It's not the government or EPA that wants to control your vehicles, it's the manufacturers. Blame Ford/GM/Chrysler/etc… here. It's their lobbyists that created the proposed changes to regulation. They want to create mandatory vendor lock-in, and force you to buy only original equipment parts, whether it's performance parts, or replacement parts.
It doesn't matter who you vote for. The lobbyists aren't elected, and the corporations are going to push for the same legislature regardless of who is in the White House or Capitol Hill.
While I am not one to go out of the way to disagree with someone, I feel I must here. Also, I wanted to avoid this becoming a political discussion but I believe it's unavoidable.
First off, your premise that the EPA really wants to do the 'right thing' and protect the environment: While I am sure there are plenty of hard working people at the EPA whose hearts are in the right place, the issue is the leadership. The head of the EPA and other agencies are choosen by the President. They choose people that adhere to their political agenda. Various branches of government have been used by administrations right and left to pick winners and losers, punish and reward. Recent examples include a housing crisis that was created by HUD forcing lenders to make home loans to people they normally wouldn't, then blaim the lenders for profit-taking. How about the IRS being used to unfairly target conservative groups? The list goes on and on, just look around and check other sources of news besides CNN or the big corporate news networks.
I work in R&D for one of the largest car manufacturers in the world. I can promise you that it is one of, if not the most heavily regulated industry in our country. Most of what auto manufacturers do in the development of new vehicles involves meeting and trying to anticipate the never-ending stream of new regulations from one government agency or another. For sake of time and space I will only mention C.A.F.E. standards.
Also, it's important to note that GM and Chrysler are essentially wholly owned subsidiaries of the U.S. taxpayer, but more accurately the Federal government, and both in financial trouble yet again.
I will concede that lobbyists have a big influence on public policy, but they are certainly not the only or even the biggest problem. How about holding our elected officials accountable for caving in to lobbyists against the wishes of their constituents? Reminding them they can be voted out as easily as they were voted in? What about holding the President and the administration's feet to the fire when they misuse and abuse thru the agencies they control?
It just sounds like you are arguing NOT to engage in the process because nothing can be done to stop lobbyists because they are not elected. While I understand the frustration, we still have a voice and a vote. If just one of us uses that voice, it will go unnoticed. But, imagine a million voices rising up and saying we've had enough of all this disfunction!
Originally posted by FastOwen2XLL: While I am not one to go out of the way to disagree with someone, I feel I must here. Also, I wanted to avoid this becoming a political discussion but I believe it's unavoidable.
First off, your premise that the EPA really wants to do the 'right thing' and protect the environment: While I am sure there are plenty of hard working people at the EPA whose hearts are in the right place, the issue is the leadership. The head of the EPA and other agencies are choosen by the President. They choose people that adhere to their political agenda. Various branches of government have been used by administrations right and left to pick winners and losers, punish and reward. Recent examples include a housing crisis that was created by HUD forcing lenders to make home loans to people they normally wouldn't, then blaim the lenders for profit-taking. How about the IRS being used to unfairly target conservative groups? The list goes on and on, just look around and check other sources of news besides CNN or the big corporate news networks.
I work in R&D for one of the largest car manufacturers in the world. I can promise you that it is one of, if not the most heavily regulated industry in our country. Most of what auto manufacturers do in the development of new vehicles involves meeting and trying to anticipate the never-ending stream of new regulations from one government agency or another. For sake of time and space I will only mention C.A.F.E. standards.
Also, it's important to note that GM and Chrysler are essentially wholly owned subsidiaries of the U.S. taxpayer, but more accurately the Federal government, and both in financial trouble yet again.
I will concede that lobbyists have a big influence on public policy, but they are certainly not the only or even the biggest problem. How about holding our elected officials accountable for caving in to lobbyists against the wishes of their constituents? Reminding them they can be voted out as easily as they were voted in? What about holding the President and the administration's feet to the fire when they misuse and abuse thru the agencies they control?
It just sounds like you are arguing NOT to engage in the process because nothing can be done to stop lobbyists because they are not elected. While I understand the frustration, we still have a voice and a vote. If just one of us uses that voice, it will go unnoticed. But, imagine a million voices rising up and saying we've had enough of all this disfunction!
Your first post in this thread was entirely political. So you can't possibly be trying to avoid being political in the thread. 90% of this thread is all politics.
I'm not arguing to avoid engaging in the process. I'm merely pointing out that the constant bi-partisan bickering that exists in this forum is entirely pointless. It doesn't matter if the people in DC are Republicans or Democrats. No matter which of those directions you vote, the outcome is going to be relatively the same. Bitching about Obama doesn't solve things.
Until there is an end to gerrymandering and lobbyists, the real rule of our country falls to the corporations that own the lobbyists. If you really want to fix things, you need representatives and senators that will push to end gerrymandering in your state, push to end lobbying, and actually follow the Constitution and fix all the broken things we've pushed our government to do over the last century.
Amen! Way to much government interventions. I see some you think it is a good idea. You really need to think long and hard and read between the lines. EPA wants to basically ban racing. obuma doesnt like racing. If you still think it is a good idea, sell your Fieros.
To hell with the government and the frickin liberals running it! Time to take back our country.
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
We are being made to believe that government can magically cure all of societies ills. What ever happened to the right to be left alone?
Absolutely. When you see corporate farms dumping pesticides into the air or animal waste into the water supply and then the EPA starts eyeballing "race cars" there is only one reason that's happening. Because lobbyists for the farms want the EPA to look the other way, and lobbyists for the auto manufacturers want more lock-in with their products. You don't get such insane dichotomy as a result of one person or group with an agenda, you get obviously conflicting activities because two different groups with two different interests are pushing two different agendas with money. Everybody blames the EPA when they legislate old cars off the road, but nobody bothers to consider the other side of that equation: Who stands to benefit when new Heavy Duty emissions laws hit the books? Peterbilt. Because they get to sell all sorts of operators brand new compliant trucks.
The only way we get a government that we can intelligently evaluate and have a real discussion about is by eliminating all the shadowy lobbyists - who are not only totally opaque but also virtually invisible. Nobody sees what strings they're pulling or why they're pulling them. That's a problem.
Well, there is certainly two schools of thought here. One is that government is too big, too powerful, and too intrusive into our daily lives. The other is that the true power lies with 'evil' corporations that send all these lobbyists and all this money to Washington, and as such the 'common man' has no real say.
I guess if that is bi-partisan bickering so be it.
But at best this is a circular argument. How do we get rid of corporate lobbyists? For every lobbyist that leaves Washington 2 more take their place. How do we elect representatives that will not eventually become beholden to those lobbyists? Either they become corrupted by the system, or another one friendly to the corporate money train gets voted in. And the wheels on the bus go round and round.....
Here are a few final thoughts:
- The bottom line is the government does not work as it should for John Q. Taxpayer. I think we all agree on that.
- One thing I can suggest, instead of trying to pick from a 'list of politicians who have not caved to lobbyists' as someone said, seek out and support candidates that are NOT career politicians. (We have two very viable candidates running for their party's nomination that have never held public office.)
- Start locally. Run for city council, county commissioner, etc. Have principles and stick to them. Change the system from the ground up.
Well, there is certainly two schools of thought here. One is that government is too big, too powerful, and too intrusive into our daily lives. The other is that the true power lies with 'evil' corporations that send all these lobbyists and all this money to Washington, and as such the 'common man' has no real say.
The "evil" corporation argument is like blaming grocery store for selling beer to someone who ends up driving drunk. The problem is the drunk. There are many places from which the drunk may get his booze.
Likewise, the problem is corruption in government. There are many avenues for money and influence to flow into D.C., but the problem is with those who act on it. I put it that way because corporate lobbyists are just one type of influence on politicians. There are many others. Get rid of one avenue of influence, and the corrupt politician willing to be lobbied is still there waiting to be influenced by another group. Concentrate your attention on the politician, and the lobbyists don't matter.
