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Pontiac Banshee: Killed by the Corvette by Tony Kania
Started on: 11-24-2015 07:38 PM
Replies: 106 (1891 views)
Last post by: solotwo on 12-05-2015 12:11 AM
Quad GT
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Report this Post11-29-2015 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad GT:

...


Oh my! I have never laid eyes on that. I should have named this "The Awesome GM History Thread".
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Report this Post11-29-2015 01:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Quad GTClick Here to Email Quad GTSend a Private Message to Quad GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


Just saw this gem transported yesterday on a flatbed

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Report this Post11-29-2015 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:


I am well aware of what good cars are, I've owned many. I'm just not brand biased or brand loyal. Especially now that GM killed Pontiac.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on which is truely a better car.

Foot note: I've also personally seen the Corvette being built. After what I saw, GM should cut the price in half.


Well time prove what one has the staying power. You have till next year to appreciate the Viper till it is killed because it is such a great car and sales are off the bottom of the chart. This should make a great collector car though. . It was put together much more buy hand and not always in a good way. If you saw most cars built you would not be impressed. It is not the precision work that you are often lead to believe.

As for the killing of Pontiac get over it. They were walking dead for a long time and part of the issue was with GM but Pontiac made a lot of mistakes too as well the market has changed. Even if GM did things right if Pontiac was not global and had about 3 times the volume or shared with another brand they would have died anyways.

Everyone wants to take a small piece of what happen and put all their chips on it. The truth is it was a chain of events and mistakes buy a number of people and groups along with globalization that killed Pontiac. Plymouth, Mercury, Hummer, Saturn, Olds and other brands have bit the dust and we will see a couple more in the future. With the rise of other MFG, The changing markets and the fact development cost have driven companies to work together or in some cases merge to save money or like FCA just to survive a little longer.

There was a time when a handful of MFGs could go it alone a couple years ago. Today just about everyone and I mean everyone will need a dance partner moving forward. VW was the strongest global company and now with the Diesel issues it could push them to work with another.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-29-2015).]

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Report this Post11-29-2015 02:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:


Oh my! I have never laid eyes on that. I should have named this "The Awesome GM History Thread".



There are some really great books on prototype cars out there and many forgotten GM ones in them. I have always had a passion for prototypes and like revisiting them from time to time.


I am always amazed how many were built and not even shown to the public.

A really good Pontiac Prototype book will be out in March from Don Keefe. He has put together a book from the 30's to 1980 on Pontiac prototypes from his old Project X stories in High Performance Pontiac. He will follow up with a second book 1980 to the end that should have some Fiero stories. He told me my story on the 1990 emblems should make the second book. Not sure what else yet will be in that book.
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Report this Post11-29-2015 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
There are some really great books on prototype cars out there and many forgotten GM ones in them. I have always had a passion for prototypes and like revisiting them from time to time.

I am always amazed how many were built and not even shown to the public.

A really good Pontiac Prototype book will be out in March from Don Keefe. He has put together a book from the 30's to 1980 on Pontiac prototypes from his old Project X stories in High Performance Pontiac. He will follow up with a second book 1980 to the end that should have some Fiero stories. He told me my story on the 1990 emblems should make the second book. Not sure what else yet will be in that book.


I wants those books!

The Vega was a great sleeper--with a small block in it.

[This message has been edited by tshark (edited 11-29-2015).]

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Report this Post11-29-2015 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
I have several copies of a old magazine that shows the mid engine Corvette concept from GM engineering. It was the original basis's that lead to the V6 version and it then lead to Pontiac using it. The drawings I have were of a space frame with a Transverse Mid Engine Big Block in the back. It is laid out just as the Fiero ended up. There was also a Wankel version too.


I'd like to see these, too. I remember that GM had the Wankel engine in the 'Vette, but sold the rights on the engine to Mazda because the engine wasn't efficient & the fuel shortage hit. I've just never seen it.
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Report this Post11-29-2015 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:
I am an avid collector of automotive periodicals. I subscribe to no less than 7 each month currently. No where did I ever read of GM not offering a warranty. There is nothing "different". The information is out there. No need to oppress it.

I merely said it was entirely street legal. Not really sure why you had to comment? But ok.


Again, I never said the car wasn't entirely street legal. "No warranty" has nothing to do with whether something is street legal or not. I said it was a car built for the track, as it is. I was wrong about the warranty. But that doesn't change the fact that the car is not a daily drivable car, even if you spend the $1500 to get A/C.

It is however, not street suitable. If you try to drive it daily, you'll be spending a whole lot on suspension repairs and tires.
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Report this Post11-29-2015 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Again, I never said the car wasn't entirely street legal. "No warranty" has nothing to do with whether something is street legal or not. I said it was a car built for the track, as it is. I was wrong about the warranty. But that doesn't change the fact that the car is not a daily drivable car, even if you spend the $1500 to get A/C.

It is however, not street suitable. If you try to drive it daily, you'll be spending a whole lot on suspension repairs and tires.



Actually the car could be driven daily. The only real compromise are the Tires. They use a very soft compound that is similar to many supercars today. Also the tread is not rain friendly.

Many Z owners have two sets of wheels they use the OE tires for track and will have a second set for street. The car handles nearly as well with the Goodyears from the ZL1 in a test and last for many miles with great wet traction. The Shocks will last a long time and while stiffer all the time than the magnetic shock package they are very street able.

Keep in mind Mark Steilow engineered this car at GM. Mark is one of the guys who developed the Pro Touring concepts in the performance cars. These are cars with race car like traits but fully street able. He has driven many of his older Camaros for different events like the Cannonball lap of America and the like winning it with best time for street and track timed events. I used to work at the same company and he drove his winning cars daily rain or shine.

Even the GT 350R that just came out is a track tuned car but very streetable.

In the past track tuned meant just that but today track tune will mean some compromise but generally still a car you could drive daily with a change of tires. Tires are the one area still lacking win wet or cold grip.

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Report this Post11-30-2015 01:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
With the rise of other MFG, The changing markets and the fact development cost have driven companies to work together or in some cases merge to save money or like FCA just to survive a little longer.



Like Chrysler wanting to merge with GM?

http://www.usatoday.com/sto...er-savings/71445860/
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Report this Post11-30-2015 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Again, I never said the car wasn't entirely street legal. "No warranty" has nothing to do with whether something is street legal or not. I said it was a car built for the track, as it is. I was wrong about the warranty. But that doesn't change the fact that the car is not a daily drivable car, even if you spend the $1500 to get A/C.

It is however, not street suitable. If you try to drive it daily, you'll be spending a whole lot on suspension repairs and tires.


Currently in Motor Trends stable is a Z/28. Absolutely a daily driver. Zero suspension repairs, but two front tires due to camber wear. Just stating facts.

Next...
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Report this Post11-30-2015 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
In the past track tuned meant just that but today track tune will mean some compromise but generally still a car you could drive daily with a change of tires. Tires are the one area still lacking win wet or cold grip.


These days dont you just push a touch screen or button, or turn a dial to "performance/ track" mode for example? Suspension gets stiffer, timing moves, etc?
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Report this Post11-30-2015 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:
Currently in Motor Trends stable is a Z/28. Absolutely a daily driver. Zero suspension repairs, but two front tires due to camber wear. Just stating facts.

Next...


Motor Trend is a person? This person drives it on anything but well manicured pavement on sunny days? Rain, snow, ice? Mountain roads? Random potholes from salt damage and heavy trucks driving on pavement too thin to support them? Steel grates? Grooved pavement?

Sure, in the good parts of LA or Las Vegas maybe one could get by with the Z as a daily driver. More so if one swaps wheels/tires to the real street car tires, rather than the Trafeo Rs which only have just enough tread to pass an inspection; and get custom laser cut valves to fix the force curve of the shocks to be more suited to daily street work.

The Z/28 was not designed or built to be a daily driver car. The ZL1 is the high performance daily driver Camaro. The Z/28 is street legal enough to drive to the track and back. Just stating facts.
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Report this Post11-30-2015 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Eh...
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Report this Post11-30-2015 04:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jason88NotchieClick Here to Email Jason88NotchieSend a Private Message to Jason88NotchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Going to need some conditioner for some of this hair splitting...
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Report this Post11-30-2015 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Like Chrysler wanting to merge with GM?

http://www.usatoday.com/sto...er-savings/71445860/


Well that is mostly an act of desperation.

Deals like how GM has been engineering Transmission that they and Ford both use a version of. Ford shares the cost and GM engineers the product. Not a combination you would have considered a few years ago.

BMW is working with Toyota on some levels to help retain their independence. Honda also is working quietly with GM on some projects too in hopes to develop new technologies and share the cost while remaining independent.

Mazda shared the Miata with Fiat to make the new 124 roadster.

In the end we will see some mergers and some companies just completely vanish. Mitsubishi has been said to be the most likely to go out of business as no one wants to work with them since they have little to offer. Peugeot need help bad and has wanted to work with Fiat. Yes Peugeot is that bad off that they are willing to work with FCA,

FCA is in trouble. Sergio is pushing to merge with GM and that is not going to happen. He as no real help on it other than the money firm he is involved with. GM wants nothing to do with them as they have nothing to bring to the table. The only things they hold of value are Jeep and the Ram Trucks. Sergio is killing the rest of Dodge and Chrysler with so little investment they are really hurting for new product that keeps getting pushed back. Chrysler is down to three models.

Sergio really needed to invest in Chrysler and not so much Alfa and Maserati. He has volume issues and nether will solve that. I expect in time if the Euro economy keeps struggling that FCA will face some tough times and tough decisions. What worries me is that they are run by an Italian who is more loyal to a Fiat and Alfa than Chrysler. Even if it is the wrong choice he may support them if cuts are made.

VW had wanted Jeep and Ram but with their troubles I am not sure if they would be buying for a while.

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Report this Post11-30-2015 05:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

hyperv6

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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


These days dont you just push a touch screen or button, or turn a dial to "performance/ track" mode for example? Suspension gets stiffer, timing moves, etc?


In the ZL1 yes as it has a magnetic shock and strut package that is fully tunable with a switch.

The Z/28 did it with some very complex shocks that are more attune to max performance than adjustability. They are not cheap and state of the art when it comes to dampening for performance. They are light years ahead of Koni's.

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Report this Post11-30-2015 09:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pcarClick Here to Email pcarSend a Private Message to pcarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Anytime someone talks about Pontiac's demise, I like to show them this article from 2009.
Well worth the 5 minutes it takes to read.

http://www.autoextremist.co...e-autoextremist.html
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Report this Post12-01-2015 07:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pcar:

Anytime someone talks about Pontiac's demise, I like to show them this article from 2009.
Well worth the 5 minutes it takes to read.

http://www.autoextremist.co...e-autoextremist.html


I have tried to explain this for years to people that Pontiac today was not what they were years ago. I called the new cars just fancy Chevys and then people who did not even know what a Tri Power was told me I was crazy.

While the new Pontiac had some bright stops there were just not enough of them. When Pontiac lost their V8 they lost the soul of what made them a Pontiac. They became a styling exercise in most cases. while better looking than the Chevy they were not much different than other GM divisions.

I grew up with Pontiac collectors and got to drive most of the famed cars that built their reputation and so I got it.

Too bad Lutz got to GM too late as he got it and just did not have the time or money to fix them.

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Report this Post12-01-2015 09:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for edfieroClick Here to Email edfieroSend a Private Message to edfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hyperv6, If I understood correctly, one of the reasons for killing the Fiero was the lack of TOTAL volume at the Factory where the Fiero was made. Given that, why couldn't they have moved Fiero production to another factory where they could have absorbed its low volume?
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Report this Post12-01-2015 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by edfiero:

Hyperv6, If I understood correctly, one of the reasons for killing the Fiero was the lack of TOTAL volume at the Factory where the Fiero was made. Given that, why couldn't they have moved Fiero production to another factory where they could have absorbed its low volume?


Moving production to another facility would have been extremely costly. If it was an option, it was likely costly enough to be yet another reason to just stop production.
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http://www.chevrolet.com/ca...-z28-track-car.html#

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The legendary Camaro Z/28 is back. Originally introduced in 1967, Camaro Z/28 was designed specifically to compete in the Sports Car Club of America’s Trans-Am 2 class. Lightweight, nimble and incredibly powerful, the original Z/28 was built to rule the road racing circuit. The 2015 Camaro Z/28 track car carries the same racing credentials, incorporating a performance-first design philosophy that takes advantage of state-of-the-art, race-proven technology. Put simply, the Z/28 is designed to dominate the track, lap after lap.

Chevrolet Complete Care is our commitment to ensure your satisfaction with the excellent service and support you would expect when purchasing or leasing a Chevrolet.

We’ve got you covered through comprehensive warranty programs, 2 years or 24,000 miles of included scheduled maintenance† and 5 years or 100,000 miles of roadside assistance with courtesy transportation†.
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Report this Post12-01-2015 08:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GTGeffSend a Private Message to GTGeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Moving production to another facility would have been extremely costly. If it was an option, it was likely costly enough to be yet another reason to just stop production.


The Saturn plant in Tennessee would have seemed the logical place. Didn't one of the mill & drills end up there and they used the same body panel technology. Although I am sure the UAW would have had a problem with it going to a non-union plant. I also thought the UAW had a special contract for building the Fiero in Pontiac.
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Report this Post12-01-2015 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by edfiero:

Hyperv6, If I understood correctly, one of the reasons for killing the Fiero was the lack of TOTAL volume at the Factory where the Fiero was made. Given that, why couldn't they have moved Fiero production to another factory where they could have absorbed its low volume?


Well Pontiac scrambled to see if they could move another model into the plant they were in. There was talk of the plastic vans that were just out and possibly expanded Saturn production but neither held enough volume and both already were set in their plans and deals with the plants and UAW locals. The simple truth was there was no car to move in easily or fast once the GM 80 was killed.

As for moving the plant. The Mill and Drill machine is not just something you toss on a truck and move to Springhill. Also the cost would have been high to reproduce it in TN. Also moving the work from Pontiac where the sold their soul deal was made with the UAW would have been even worse than if they killed the car.

Moving cars is not as difficult today for the most part. As for the Fiero it was not as easy as most even back then due to the special tooling they were using.

Add that to the lack of support of GM. The bad press on the Fires, Recalls and the fact GM was not flush with cash even then it was an uphill battle.

Lets face it few at GM wanted the car outside Pontiac. Once things got ugly many of those at GM that did support the cars lost their support from GM. This deal was seen as a career killer for some up and coming people and they were not going to stick their necks out. A handful of older established people like John Schinella fought for the car because he was in a place where they could not touch him. Others though had to remain silent.

If the Fiero had Strong GM support they could have done about anything but the did not so little was going to be done as Pontiac could not go it alone.

Politics, grudges, fear, sales, unions, so many issues in a Culture Damaged Company. We knew it was bad but only today are we finding out how bad now some people are willing to talk.

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hyperv6

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quote
Originally posted by GTGeff:


The Saturn plant in Tennessee would have seemed the logical place. Didn't one of the mill & drills end up there and they used the same body panel technology. Although I am sure the UAW would have had a problem with it going to a non-union plant. I also thought the UAW had a special contract for building the Fiero in Pontiac.


Few people at GM had the love for this car to build it to start with, Pontiac had to hide it at Entech before it even hit the market. At the end no one at GM would have paid the cost or dealt with all the other issues needed to move the Mill and Drill.

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Report this Post12-05-2015 12:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The super Vega and all the mid engine corvettes are in the Heritage Center. One of the few(very few) benefits of living in Michigan, we have the GM Heritage Center.





[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 12-07-2015).]

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