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Pontiac Banshee: Killed by the Corvette by Tony Kania
Started on: 11-24-2015 07:38 PM
Replies: 106 (1909 views)
Last post by: solotwo on 12-05-2015 12:11 AM
Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post11-27-2015 09:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The discussion is very interesting but it needs to be remembered that 2 seater cars are still being produced today and if we reference the Corvette, its been in production since 1953. I do not believe that a car like the Fiero could have a run like that but just improving the suspension while nothing else offered little more than the Fiero always had. Point is that GM didn't want to keep the brand going and except for the Corvette, the company doesn't like 2 seat cars. The 3.8L Buick Reatta that came later didn't last long and the Pontiac Solstice met the same fate.
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Thunderstruck GT
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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Face it....

Pontiac as a whole was well respected by many, except GM.
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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

I am not any smarter than anyone else on the Fiero but I have been at this much longer than many here have been alive. I was a Fiero fan with my first magazine on it in Sept of 1980 when it was called a little GTO on the cover. I bough my Fiero 29 1/2 years ago and still have it. I was just lucky to have been there when the car was build, I went to the races and saw it win and got to meet most of the principal people involved with the program along with some other key people at GM. Lets just say I have a little more experience and a damn good library of info. Though I have had a hell of a time trying to fins the Goad Story again. I know it was late 90's and I have the issue some where but I have so many other magazines on the Fiero it is in that mess some where.

So anyhow I am just trying to share what I learned over time and know what is true. This is why I would love to get a book together on the car just to document the truth as there is so much BS out there. The record need set straight on many things on the car. Some things Fiero people will like and some they may not like as the car while good was far from perfect and if we document it correctly with have to show the warts as much as the roses to be creditable.


I appreciate the info you do share. As for the book idea (good idea!) I recommend you just start writing it, others can eventually add or edit or review and compile.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:

Face it....

Pontiac as a whole was well respected by many, except GM.


It was not really that GM had no respect it was more to the point that many in charge at GM did not understand how to handle Pontiac. Keep in mind Pontiac was really prime to be an enthusiast division but many at GM wanted in the later years make it a be all division for all people. Hence the G3, G5 G6 none with what you would call a real performance option.

Lutz arrived and said how can Pontiac be the Performance division if they do not even have RWD car?

Pontiac has had a history of being the lost brand at GM. In the Sloan era it was seen as a step up from Chevy. Later on people jumped from Chevy to olds and Buick and Pontiac gained a rep as an old mans car. There was talk of killing the brand in the 50's till Bunkie Knudson arrived. He brought in Delorean and the two set about to remake Pontiac into a performance division.

After Bunkie and John moved on there was a mix of leaders some good many not so good. As the Imports clogged the market it made the market much more competitive and GM did not need to do 4 different versions of the same car. This really hurt Olds and Pontiac as they really had lost their identity over the years. They lost their engines and engineering. For all intents most Pontiac's were fancy Chevys with Red dash lights and better styling. In the old days being a Pontiac was a different engine and options you just could not get on a Chevy. Also they offered engineering in ways Chevy never did either.

The fact is Pontiac died a long slow death due to miss management. There were glimpses of hope from some of the engineers who were brave enough to stick it out there but even that faded in the later years as the market caught up to Pontiac and made them expendable.

I know many want to blame the president. Trust me I am no fan of his but I can not even pin this on his people. What happened was the right thing as it would have taken multiple Billions to fix them and even then they would have only sold in North America and see limited sales.

Performance may make the covers of magazines but it is only a small part of the market so it is seen as add on profits not prime income.


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Formula88
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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've never understood why the Corvette is GM's darling.
Virtually every other model is sold under multiple brands with various rebadging. Heck, they even did it with the Corvette platform with the Cadillac XLR.

If they're so worried about cannibalizing sales, then GM should cancel all brands other than Chevy.

2 seater sales were dropping in the late 80's. Without something else to use the extra production capacity at the plant the Fiero was doomed. Miata didn't even come out until 1989 so there was no way to predict the success of an as yet unreleased car.

GM's biggest problem IMO is how rarely they're honest about what a car is supposed to be. Fiero was either a sports car or a commuter depending on who you talked to. A horribly inefficient design for a commuter and a woefully inadequate design for a sports car. If the '84 had started out where the '88 was and if GM brass was serious about the car it would have been far more successful. They were trying to build a Corvette on a Chevette price tag. That's not a recipe for long term success.
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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

The discussion is very interesting but it needs to be remembered that 2 seater cars are still being produced today and if we reference the Corvette, its been in production since 1953. I do not believe that a car like the Fiero could have a run like that but just improving the suspension while nothing else offered little more than the Fiero always had. Point is that GM didn't want to keep the brand going and except for the Corvette, the company doesn't like 2 seat cars. The 3.8L Buick Reatta that came later didn't last long and the Pontiac Solstice met the same fate.



The Corvette is different as it has hit Icon status much like a Harley. There are better V twins out there but Harley is still the leader.

The Miata has lived on as it is a very popular configuration and was marketed very smartly by Mazda. They never over sell the car and limit sales in the US market. They offer many limited editions to keep it fresh much like how GM is doing with the Camaro now. Also they sell it globally.

Most other low cost 2 seat cars do not get the investment to keep them alive due to the fact they are limited in profits. They are more a Halo car than they are a profit car. Low volumes normally require higher prices to make them profitable.

One of the hardest cars to build and make money on is a sports car under $30K. There is just little meat on the bone. Now a Ferrari that sells for $269K has so much meat they can sell 2K a year and make a killing.
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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

Keep in mind Pontiac was really prime to be an enthusiast division but many at GM wanted in the later years make it a be all division for all people. Hence the G3, G5 G6 none with what you would call a real performance option.

Lutz arrived and said how can Pontiac be the Performance division if they do not even have RWD car?

There were glimpses of hope from some of the engineers who were brave enough to stick it out there but even that faded in the later years as the market caught up to Pontiac and made them expendable.


Hence my earlier statement.............

 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:

If I recall, wasn't it around 2000 or 2002 that GM said that they were going back to the days when each brand was going to have its own identity again?

That apparently was short lived because I missed it.

As far as the Pontiac faithfull losing interest in the brand.... Like I said, you can only build the identical car for so many years. GM not spending a dime in 10 years on R&D all but killed enthusiasm to buy a new Pontiac. It also didn't help that the Quad 4 was a ticking time bomb and many Pontiacs had them. And don't even get me started about putting that Northstar in the Bonneville.


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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thunderstruck GT

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quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

I've never understood why the Corvette is GM's darling.
Virtually every other model is sold under multiple brands with various rebadging. Heck, they even did it with the Corvette platform with the Cadillac XLR.


The only connection between the Corvette and the XLR were the frame rails and that they were built in the same plant.
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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They prefer Chevrolet, but almost any Buick, Oldmobile or Pontiac was better than comparable Chevys. Chevy is GMs Yugo, most are just cheap junk that tries to look pretty. Pick any year after WWII, and told I could have ONE, and Ill take the Buick, Olds or Pontiac over the Chevy any day.
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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

They prefer Chevrolet, but almost any Buick, Oldmobile or Pontiac was better than comparable Chevys. Chevy is GMs Yugo, most are just cheap junk that tries to look pretty. Pick any year after WWII, and told I could have ONE, and Ill take the Buick, Olds or Pontiac over the Chevy any day.


I agree with all this except you'll never see me in a Buick unless I become Chinese.

[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 11-27-2015).]

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Report this Post11-27-2015 10:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Banshee pics











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Report this Post11-27-2015 11:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

They prefer Chevrolet, but almost any Buick, Oldmobile or Pontiac was better than comparable Chevys. ...
Pick any year after WWII, and told I could have ONE, and Ill take the Buick, Olds or Pontiac over the Chevy any day.


I'm with you there.
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Report this Post11-27-2015 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for davylong86Send a Private Message to davylong86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


I'm with you there.


Same here. I still miss my 77 Cutlass

[This message has been edited by davylong86 (edited 11-27-2015).]

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Tony Kania
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Report this Post11-27-2015 12:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:

... Curious about the sentence in blue though?

... In another case of GM Corvette-paranoia the 1968 Banshee II was later renamed the Fiero. ...
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Report this Post11-27-2015 12:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for davylong86Send a Private Message to davylong86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony Kania:

... Curious about the sentence in blue though?

... In another case of GM Corvette-paranoia the 1968 Banshee II was later renamed the Fiero. ...
[/QUOTE]
Curious also? Does that mean they where working on a Fiero long before the late 70s and early 80s our was the name just floating around the Pontiac division until the got a car to carry the name.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post11-27-2015 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

They prefer Chevrolet, but almost any Buick, Oldmobile or Pontiac was better than comparable Chevys. Chevy is GMs Yugo, most are just cheap junk that tries to look pretty. Pick any year after WWII, and told I could have ONE, and Ill take the Buick, Olds or Pontiac over the Chevy any day.


The Yugo comment is a bit extreme.

The Chevy division is their value volume division. Their main goal is to provide as many different types of vehicles as a price that most auto buyers can afford [Yes I know they all are expensive]

Pontiac, Olds and Buick were all set to progress the customer to a higher level and to a higher priced vehicle. I am sure you are familiar with the Slone logic. Well that worked when the only difference was a long wheelbase and short wheelbase cars offered in Coupe, Sedan and Wagon. For the most part there really was little difference other than content and price. A V8 or I 6 was the choice of what you could afford in most models unless it was a Buick with an I 8 or larger Cadillac engine.

Just look at the 55 Chevy for example. They offered many different versions of the same car, a Corvette and a Truck line. That Changed in the 60's and has evolved every since.

Ford, Dodge, Toyota, Honda, Chevy are all value prices volume brands. The MFG needs to sell more than 100K units at the lower price.

Today most MFG have a value leader division and a Luxury division., Luxury is key today as even at low volumes they can make 50% of all their car profits from these models. This is what Saved Cadillac and to this point Lincoln as at one point they were going to kill them off.

VW for example make from what I have been told 60% of their profits from their high end cars that only reach a fraction of their total output. This is why they added so many classic names to their corporation.

What really hurt the later years at GM is the difference of say a Buick to a Chevy became much less. Compare the Fleetwood that was converted from what originally was conceived as a Caprice and you can see that the differences were not all that great as vs the early years at GM. Compare a 32 Cadillac to a 32 Chevy and there is no comparison.

Later on compare a Regal and a GP or Lumina and only some trim and tuning was the greatest difference. This was badge engineering gone bad. Platforms will need to be shared but there is a right way and wrong way. Look at the Alpha that was built as a Cadillac and trickled down to a Camaro. I has given us the most refined Camaro ever as it for once is not based on a Econo car or someone elses cheaper model.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-27-2015).]

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Report this Post11-27-2015 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Banshee pics












Note in the photos all the different parts from other GM cars. The seat belts were Cadillac etc.

This was far from a finished show car but it was well finished for a proof of concept car. If the car did get approved a lot of work still needed to be done. I know someone who has driven both cars and he said both are drivable but not really for the real world by anymeans.

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Report this Post11-27-2015 01:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

hyperv6

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quote
Originally posted by davylong86:

Curious also? Does that mean they where working on a Fiero long before the late 70s and early 80s our was the name just floating around the Pontiac division until the got a car to carry the name.


What he was getting at is the later 1969 version that was based on the 1968 Firebird Fiero Concept. Fiero then mean Fi rebird aERO concept. I know they like to claim they found it in a book after long meetings but I still don't buy that line. What are the odd someone would just happen to come up with a name GM already owned and used on a previous car with a different meaning. But that is an argument for another day.

Anyways it was restyled in 1969 and Called a Banshee and was just another of many Banshee concepts Pontiac built over the years.

It was a front engine 2 seat car based on the first gen F body.

http://www.bing.com/images/...66aaa90o0&ajaxhist=0

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Report this Post11-27-2015 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:



No I agree with most of what you said but it is even more complex than that. If you dig into the history and get the back stories known now it really adds even much more to what you said and adds even more issues.

GM was like a hand that all the fingers just did not work well together because of poor or ineffective leadership. They had the engineering and ability to out do anyone but failed because the lack of ability to adapt and change.

Case in point. When Lutz arrived he asked the engineer that was in charge of the sheet metal stamping why they could not match the panels on a Hyundai when showing the new prototype of the 08 Malibu. He told Lutz that he could. Well Lutz asked why did he not do it. Well he said I was not told to. He has no authority to do it on his own and he had no authority to ask to do it. Lutz told him do it and he has no need to ever ask just do it on all models. Hence for some new dies for $250.0000 the new Malibu got world class panel gaps.

What we outlined here before are symptoms of a damaged culture. Today that is being repaired and we have already seen many changes and more are yet to come. The Damage Culture did in GM and prevented them from doing and being all they could be.

For decades we only got peaks a the culture and today we are seeing changes we never thought we would see. Case in Point Cadillac pretty much given the ability to operate outside GM control for the most part. We will start to see cars and engines we never though GM would let them build. The move to NYC was mostly to get them away from those of the old school from interfering.

While their turn around has been slowed in the next 5 years you will see some amazing changes there. The present CT6, CTS and ATS are good cars but the present leadership at Cadillac has said it is not good enough. That would never have happened 10 years ago or even 2 years ago.
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Report this Post11-27-2015 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:


I agree with all this except you'll never see me in a Buick unless I become Chinese.




Be careful of what you say as Buick has not shown much of anything new since the bail out. Buick was the last to get the new product and as of now we have only seen one post Chapter 11 new model that being the new 2017 Lacrosse. The rest of the cars were done before the bail out or taken from Opel so nothing really new.

Now Buick has started on a new project and they call it White Space. This is where they can do cars in smaller volumes and make more interesting cars that they will share and sell globally with Opel, Holden and Vauxhall. These will be some interesting an very non Buick like things we have seen Opel and Holden do in the past but with the new money from GM

I would not be surprised to find a GTI killer in the mix as well as more AWD performance models. With the globalization they will be able to do these products in small numbers but yet sell them globally to keep profits up and prices down.

Duncan from Buick said to watch the White Space as some really suprising things will come. At the Buick price point they should be things that we have been wising for. Lets face it Many have cried for Cruze SS like the Cobalt. In a Buick they can do it and do it right where the Chevy would be limited by price. Lets face it how much would you pay for a Cruze ? Ford right now is trying to push AWD Fusions for $42K That is nuts.
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quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:


Despite all the contrary conjecture, declining sales killed the Fiero.
It wasn't 'special' enough to command a high enough market price at the quantities being produced for continued feasibility.
The bean counters pulled the life support plug.
1984: 136,168
1985: 76,371
1986: 83,974
1987: 46,581
1988: 26,402



It's not like the Corvette sales numbers were knocking it out of the park either:

1984 - 51,547
1985 - 39,729
1986 - 35,109
1987 - 30,632
1988 - 30,632

http://www.vettefacts.com/C4/C4Main.aspx


 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:
(snip)

Then came the '88 GT with its Lotus suspension.......

(snip)




 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:

Like I said, take it however you like but there is more than 1 person that has/had an inside track to some GM info.



That is interesting since Hulki was asked about this at the 20th and he basically said it was BS - if anyone, he should know.

skip to about 41:20

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 11-27-2015).]

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Report this Post11-27-2015 02:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:


That is interesting since Hulki was asked about this at the 20th and he basically said it was BS - if anyone, he should know.

skip to about 41:20




Mickey the Corvette also was selling for much more and the real key was it was in a plant tailored for its capacity. To be honest those are great numbers for a 2 seater car.

The Fiero had been expected to sell around 30K units with a shared production in the plant. The GM 80 was canceled and this left them in a plant that could make 250K cars and only around 30K built. Pontiac could not keep up the pace of the first two years and if anything it damaged the later years. You over build in a limited segment and in the end demand drops in the latter years.

The Corvette just a couple years ago got to 12K units and they really had to push the C7 to higher abilities as if they did not regain production to around 25K they were in trouble.

Even in 1997 the Corvette was ordered killed and only the manager saved it buy ignoring the order.

As for the Lotus point I think we are all on the same page now.
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Report this Post11-27-2015 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Corvette sales during Fiero production years were 55% higher than the previous 5 year average and 65% higher than the 5 year subsequent average. Want to sell more Corvettes? Offer Fieros! Lol! Cross shopping threat? Hmmm...

.........Corvette
1979: 53,807 (sales record)
1980: 40,614
1981: 40,600
1982: 25,407
1983: ........0
avg: 23,966

....... Corvette...........Fiero
1984: 51,547........136,840
1985: 39,729..........76,371
1986: 35,109..........83,974
1987: 36,632..........46,581
1988: 22,789..........26,402
avg: 37,161..........74,034

....... Corvette
1989: 26,412
1990: 23,646
1991: 20,639
1992: 20,479
1993: 21,590
avg: 22,553

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David Hambleton
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Report this Post11-27-2015 09:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
GM divisional cross-shopping potential is part of the GM business model, if history is any indication:
'X' cars: Chevy Citation, Pontiac Phoenix, Buick Skylark, Oldsmobile Omega.
'A' cars: Chevy Celebrity, Pontiac 6000, Buick Century, Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera.
'U' cars: Chevy Lumina APV, Pontiac Trans Sport, Oldsmobile Silhouette.

One of the biggest 'rivalries': Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra.

One of the 'most attractive' rivalries: Pontiac Aztek, Buick Rendezvous.

Dozens more comparisons could easily be made from any era.

Currently, the top model Camaros rival Corvette performance. What's up with that?
That's a potential Corvette threat if ever there was one...
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Thunderstruck GT
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Report this Post11-27-2015 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Corvette is the pampered child of GM

Frankly, I'd rather have a Ford GT or a Viper
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dobey
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Report this Post11-27-2015 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:
GM divisional cross-shopping potential is part of the GM business model, if history is any indication:
'X' cars: Chevy Citation, Pontiac Phoenix, Buick Skylark, Oldsmobile Omega.
'A' cars: Chevy Celebrity, Pontiac 6000, Buick Century, Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera.
'U' cars: Chevy Lumina APV, Pontiac Trans Sport, Oldsmobile Silhouette.

One of the biggest 'rivalries': Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra.

One of the 'most attractive' rivalries: Pontiac Aztek, Buick Rendezvous.

Dozens more comparisons could easily be made from any era.

Currently, the top model Camaros rival Corvette performance. What's up with that?
That's a potential Corvette threat if ever there was one...


The Z/28 is not a street car though. It's a factory track car, and it's $75K. It has no warranty.

The base C7 Corvette is cheaper, has more features, and a warranty.

The Z/28 is not a threat to the Corvette, save for cases where people were buying a Corvette to only use for the track. The Z/28 is probably a better option for that. If you want something that can do daily driver duty too, though, the Corvette is the better option.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post11-28-2015 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:

Corvette is the pampered child of GM

Frankly, I'd rather have a Ford GT or a Viper



Well they stopped making the GT and the new one will be around $400,000, As for the Viper if you ever drove one vs. a new C7 you would realize what car is better very quickly. It was a very unique car but for the most part a crude machine compare to the others. Also it dies very soon too as sales have tanked.

the Vette is not pampered. It has to make a Business case every year. It has to make a profit, It also does not get a break from GM on MPG as it is required to get big numbers and is not given a free pass.

The Vette also has been on the chopping block several times the latest was 1997.

The Corvette has been one of the most effective tools since they finally got the car right globally. It has given GM some visibility in other Markets like Europe and other places they struggled.

As long as it makes money odds are great the Vette will survive. It has hit Icon status just as a Harley and the 911 an achievement few products ever reach. You can not design that or build it you have to earn it.
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Report this Post11-28-2015 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


The Z/28 is not a street car though. It's a factory track car, and it's $75K. It has no warranty.

The base C7 Corvette is cheaper, has more features, and a warranty.

The Z/28 is not a threat to the Corvette, save for cases where people were buying a Corvette to only use for the track. The Z/28 is probably a better option for that. If you want something that can do daily driver duty too, though, the Corvette is the better option.


The Z/28 is legal for the street. There is nothing about it that is not legal. The tires will not last long but it is fully functioning and can even be optioned with AC.
But I agree the Z/28 is not a threat.

What many here discount is that the Camaro and Corvette both will increase performance. The Camaro has only shown the SS model and it already matches the Mustang GT35R. The next performance model will be fully street legal and will take the level of play even higher. The Corvette will have a C8 model sold along side the C7 soon. It will take the Z06 performance to a higher level. From what I was told the Corvette team was testing over 1,000 HP but will only use what they get to the ground. So they are working to find ways to do this.

To this point we have not see anything yet. Add to this mix the CTS and ATS. V series. GM has a good mix of RWD performance vehicles that are world class. Now I would like to see them take on cars like the GTI and other FWD performance as well as a few AWD models to fill out the line up.

As for the Corvette and Camaro competing they do attract much different buyers. Both sell in good numbers today and both compliment each other.

As for price they are not cheap but for the cars they compete against they are performance bargains. The real deal is the Camaro as the V6 is now a 13 sec car and the Turbo 4 with out a tune will be 14 sec and should realize 13-12 seconds with a easy to apply tune.

Right now I am interested in the Buick White Space and what this could mean for them in Performance. They have yet to address it but we will see some things there. I suspect they will attack Audi and VW like performance cars.

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Report this Post11-28-2015 08:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

hyperv6

5481 posts
Member since Mar 2003
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:

GM divisional cross-shopping potential is part of the GM business model, if history is any indication:
'X' cars: Chevy Citation, Pontiac Phoenix, Buick Skylark, Oldsmobile Omega.
'A' cars: Chevy Celebrity, Pontiac 6000, Buick Century, Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera.
'U' cars: Chevy Lumina APV, Pontiac Trans Sport, Oldsmobile Silhouette.

One of the biggest 'rivalries': Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra.

One of the 'most attractive' rivalries: Pontiac Aztek, Buick Rendezvous.

Dozens more comparisons could easily be made from any era.

Currently, the top model Camaros rival Corvette performance. What's up with that?
That's a potential Corvette threat if ever there was one...


That is what is good about GM today as they have eliminated much of the cross shopping. The GMC, Chevy truck thing is there but with the high profits of GMC they would be nuts to change that. The Denali models are pure profit. Also It gives the Buick dealers the profits and SUV models to make them happy too.

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Report this Post11-28-2015 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Click Here to Email css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:

Corvette sales during Fiero production years were 55% higher than the previous 5 year average and 65% higher than the 5 year subsequent average. Want to sell more Corvettes? Offer Fieros! Lol! Cross shopping threat? Hmmm...

.........Corvette
1979: 53,807 (sales record)
1980: 40,614
1981: 40,600
1982: 25,407
1983: ........0
avg: 23,966



LOL I see what you did there...

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Tony Kania
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Report this Post11-28-2015 02:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


The Z/28 is not a street car though. It's a factory track car, and it's $75K. It has no warranty.

...

...


It comes with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty just like any other car.

It is street legal in every way.
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Report this Post11-28-2015 03:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:
It comes with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty just like any other car.

It is street legal in every way.


All the reviews I saw when it came out last year, said no warranty. Maybe that's different now.

And I never said it wasn't street legal. I said it was a car made for the track.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post11-28-2015 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


All the reviews I saw when it came out last year, said no warranty. Maybe that's different now.

And I never said it wasn't street legal. I said it was a car made for the track.


May have been a bad web story but he is correct it has a full warranty and was fully street legal.

I just saw one yesterday at the dealer and it was gone today. A new owner some where waiting for no rain I would assume.

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Report this Post11-29-2015 10:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

As for the Viper if you ever drove one vs. a new C7 you would realize what car is better very quickly. It was a very unique car but for the most part a crude machine compare to the others. Also it dies very soon too as sales have tanked.

the Vette is not pampered. It has to make a Business case every year. It has to make a profit, It also does not get a break from GM on MPG as it is required to get big numbers and is not given a free pass.


I have drove a Viper.

I wasn't referring to the mid-life crisis, gold chain'er that wants the "hey look at me" car with the cushy ride.

The Viper from the first time it was on a sketch pad was designed to be a race car first and a street car second. Right from the start, the Viper was designed with the Shelby Cobra in mind. No one ever questions the Cobra's ride or fuel economy.

The Viper is more race car, the Corvette is not. If I'm going to own that class of vehicle, it won't be a Corvette.
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Report this Post11-29-2015 11:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Quad GTClick Here to Email Quad GTSend a Private Message to Quad GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There was a 2 seater based off the Vega around 1972/73
It looked like a cross between Vette/X19 and Fiero
Called XP-898

I have an old Road and Track copy which I can scan if anyone is interested in reading more about it

http://deansgarage.com/2011...-two-unique-designs/
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Report this Post11-29-2015 11:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


All the reviews I saw when it came out last year, said no warranty. Maybe that's different now.

And I never said it wasn't street legal. I said it was a car made for the track.


I am an avid collector of automotive periodicals. I subscribe to no less than 7 each month currently. No where did I ever read of GM not offering a warranty. There is nothing "different". The information is out there. No need to oppress it.

I merely said it was entirely street legal. Not really sure why you had to comment? But ok.

------------------
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.
Fieroking Customs

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hyperv6
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Report this Post11-29-2015 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:


I have drove a Viper.

I wasn't referring to the mid-life crisis, gold chain'er that wants the "hey look at me" car with the cushy ride.

The Viper from the first time it was on a sketch pad was designed to be a race car first and a street car second. Right from the start, the Viper was designed with the Shelby Cobra in mind. No one ever questions the Cobra's ride or fuel economy.

The Viper is more race car, the Corvette is not. If I'm going to own that class of vehicle, it won't be a Corvette.


You really need to understand that ruff rides and harsh handling is not the way a good race performs let alone a good street car.

A well tuned car race or street has a compliant suspension and makes going fast heady not one you have to work for. I have driven the Viper and Autocrosse a Z06 and the engineering of the Corvette makes for the complete package and enhances the driver with out the expense just adding stiffer springs and more bolt on wings.

Back in the day the Shelby did not win on handling. It won for two reasons it was light and it had power. The handling was ok but the power and less weight gave it an advantage. Chevy did the same with the Grand Sport Corvette but it also handled better. Shelby till the say he died said the Grand Sport was a major concern to him till GM pulled the plug on Zora. In hind site they were going to have aero issue at the faster tracks as Penske found out with the nose. They did not understand down force so much then.

Just to note the basis for a great handling car is chassis stiffness. You can not have great handling with a flexible chassis. Note the Cobra with the 427 would twist so much that the doors at times would come open. Now to over come that they could power down the straights on the engine and take the corners about the same and the lower powered cars. The Cobra dominated on power not handling. Also the lack of any real compaction was a great advantage too. What other Major MFG was involved in that era? Benz gone, GM out, Chrysler was in NASCAR, Porsche was in a lesser class due to smaller engines. Ferrari with a limited number of fragile cars that either won or broke. Jag was limited in their racing at the time too.

I love a Cobra as much as anyone but handling was not its prime reason to winning. Durability of the engines and power is what got them through.

The long and short of it is the Viper is like doing surgery with a Hammer while the Vette is more like a Scalpel today. You can dispense with the crude stereo types as the C7 has proven its rightful place in the sports car market. No gold chains needed anymore.

The fact many people think some of these crude cars are great sports cars is because many have never driven a well tuned sports car. The Viper is like my idea of making pigs fly. With enough velocity you can make a pig fly but for how long? Take a street version of the Z06 and the Street version of the Viper and you will find the Z is the much better engineered and tuned car. It is the one that will give consistent lap times over the short and long run.

Both are interesting cars for sure but if you think the Viper is better then you are clearly not sure what a superior sports car is.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-29-2015).]

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Report this Post11-29-2015 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad GT:

There was a 2 seater based off the Vega around 1972/73
It looked like a cross between Vette/X19 and Fiero
Called XP-898

I have an old Road and Track copy which I can scan if anyone is interested in reading more about it

http://deansgarage.com/2011...-two-unique-designs/



Thanks for posting this. I remember this one.

I have several copies of a old magazine that shows the mid engine Corvette concept from GM engineering. It was the original basis's that lead to the V6 version and it then lead to Pontiac using it. The drawings I have were of a space frame with a Transverse Mid Engine Big Block in the back. It is laid out just as the Fiero ended up. There was also a Wankel version too.

Like with many of these concepts while most were never built GM still would rob some ideas or concepts from them and carry them to a later model. Like I say they never really throw anything away at GM.

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Report this Post11-29-2015 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


You really need to understand that ruff rides and harsh handling is not the way a good race performs let alone a good street car.

Both are interesting cars for sure but if you think the Viper is better then you are clearly not sure what a good car is.


I am well aware of what good cars are, I've owned many. I'm just not brand biased or brand loyal. Especially now that GM killed Pontiac.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on which is truely a better car.

Foot note: I've also personally seen the Corvette being built. After what I saw, GM should cut the price in half.
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Report this Post11-29-2015 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Quad GTClick Here to Email Quad GTSend a Private Message to Quad GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Check out January 1973 Road and Track and January 1971 for mid engine Vette
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