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3800sc vs SBC by Burly1
Started on: 04-06-2015 08:49 PM
Replies: 55 (1326 views)
Last post by: dobey on 04-16-2015 12:35 PM
zzzhuh
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Report this Post04-13-2015 06:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

They both blow. N/A FTW


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engine man
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Report this Post04-13-2015 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ok one thing i disagree with is the is that the M122 is gong to use way more power to turn due to you don't need to turn it as fast because the bigger blower moves more air per revolution and this also results in lower intake temps. to really find out you need 2 engines that put out the same power one with a blower the other with a turbo then you can do a true comparison but you cant take a engine with a blower that the blower will only move enough air to make 400 hp then compare it to a turbo that can move enough air to make 650 HP it is apples and oranges
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LFiero67
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Report this Post04-13-2015 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
But you said you want to move more air, so it has to turn as fast or faster than the m90 to make similar power to turbo setup. M122 is only 35% bigger, compared to approximately 60% more power on my turbo setup. Plus the rotors are longer, and heavier, it takes more power to spin the bigger blower just due to mass. At some point the inlet of the blower becomes a restriction to flow, causing more pressure ratio and more heat. Stepping up to a TVS or whipple changes things, but comparing Mxxx series blowers, the gains just aren't that easy. ZZP once made a kit to install m112 rotors in a M90 case, the minimal to no gains didn't justify the cost so they stopped making it. It is also easier to fab up a turbo setup that mounts off engine than a adapter or manifold to mount a bigger blower. It has been done, but few have been successful.


The blower setup is a pile of fun on a street oriented vehicle, and a well setup M90 Fiero will surprise a lot of people on the road, but around 300 whp, the turbo setup starts to make more sense dollar per hp wise. I loved my M90 setup, but I wouldn't go back in this car. Might build a street cruiser one day, manual transmission and M90 is a blast, and easy 12 second car.

------------------
10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

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zzzhuh
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Report this Post04-13-2015 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LFiero67:


The blower setup is a pile of fun on a street oriented vehicle, and a well setup M90 Fiero will surprise a lot of people on the road, but around 300 whp, the turbo setup starts to make more sense dollar per hp wise. I loved my M90 setup, but I wouldn't go back in this car. Might build a street cruiser one day, manual transmission and M90 is a blast, and easy 12 second car.



300WHP?

I've read on the Grand Prix forums and maybe even some people here that claim the 3.8SC series 2 WAS putting out around 300HP but, Pontiac decided to say in the official press release it produced 240HP to keep insurance cost's down. I would have to dyno my 2000GTP to see if that is true but mine has some mods done. None the less, even at 240HP you could easily get 300WHP with minor mods and it would be cheaper than a turbo set up. Mainly because you wouldn't have to convert it to run a turbo.
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LFiero67
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Report this Post04-13-2015 08:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Gtp make 195 to the wheels stock, so I'd say 240 crank is pretty accurate. Fiero with manual and free flowing exhaust, with 3.4 pulley are usually around 230-240 whp.

300 is relatively easy and cheapish, but beyond 300 whp the mods required to make more get more and more expensive. I made 374 whp on a mustang dyno, I know what it costs. If my goal was 300 or more from the get go, I would seriously consider turbo over m90, especially since everyone's goals seem to creep higher and higher over time. I was once building a 13 second car, kind of funny looking back now.

------------------
10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

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zzzhuh
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Report this Post04-13-2015 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LFiero67:

Gtp makes 195 to the wheels stock, so I'd say 240 crank is pretty accurate. Fiero with manual and free flowing exhaust, with 3.4 pulley are usually around 230-240 whp.



I'll have to dyno mine and get back with you on that.

On the other hand, I feel like anything over 300HP on a Fiero is over kill.

I realize we all want the Corvette killer (even Hulki stated they blew the doors off of corvette on early versions of the car

But I guess once you have good horsepower, you just want more
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California Kid
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Report this Post04-13-2015 10:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by zzzhuh:


I'll have to dyno mine and get back with you on that.

On the other hand, I feel like anything over 300HP on a Fiero is over kill.

I realize we all want the Corvette killer (even Hulki stated they blew the doors off of corvette on early versions of the car

But I guess once you have good horsepower, you just want more


I hope you realize that the Hulki statement takes into account that the Corvette was an absolute dog, 16 second 1/4 miles were normal at that time.

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zzzhuh
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Report this Post04-14-2015 02:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by California Kid:


I hope you realize that the Hulki statement takes into account that the Corvette was an absolute dog, 16 second 1/4 miles were normal at that time.


... Right.
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Report this Post04-14-2015 08:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaClick Here to Email Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think that any motor that puts the Fiero in the 13s will make it feel pretty quick and fine for most people and be a lot of fun to drive. Faster than that you will start to quickly understand why newer cars come with traction control. You better know what you are doing. Specially wen wet.
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Report this Post04-14-2015 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by zzzhuh:
Actually, turbo's cost more:

http://www.topspeed.com/car...hargers-ar98210.html


This is pretty much complete nonsense. You can find the m90 or other similar OEM Eaton blowers for cheap, yes. But after market blower kits are very expensive. The Edelbrock and other blower kits for LSx engines for example, are all in the $5000-6000 range. Even the Paxton or Vortech superchargers are $3000-8000 on average. You can go turbo on most LSx vehicles for less than half that, and make more power over a broader range.


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Report this Post04-14-2015 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
to tell you the truth both 3800 and SBC are good engines and are more than capable of pushing the car down a drag strip as fast as you want to go so it just matters how much you want to spend to go fast and how you want to go about doing it
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Report this Post04-14-2015 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FFIEROFREDClick Here to Email FFIEROFREDSend a Private Message to FFIEROFREDEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You get what you pay for.
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Report this Post04-15-2015 09:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by FFIEROFRED:

You get what you pay for.


One of the worst sayings ever. Unless of course you are looking to get taken.
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Report this Post04-15-2015 11:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jediperkSend a Private Message to jediperkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For the OP: I think you have to clarify SBC: Are we talking all alluminum lightweight fuel injected LSx or old heavy iron block carb'd SBC? B/C if it's the latter you will probably be happier going 3800. With either platform you can make ridiculous power, it's finding a drivetrain to stand up to the ridiculous power where the real fun begins. If starting from scratch I would get that figured out before worrying about what engine you are going to put it to the test with...
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Report this Post04-16-2015 11:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROPHREKSend a Private Message to FIEROPHREKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by jediperk:

For the OP: I think you have to clarify SBC: Are we talking all alluminum lightweight fuel injected LSx or old heavy iron block carb'd SBC? B/C if it's the latter you will probably be happier going 3800. With either platform you can make ridiculous power, it's finding a drivetrain to stand up to the ridiculous power where the real fun begins. If starting from scratch I would get that figured out before worrying about what engine you are going to put it to the test with...


I think that is what scares people away from built SBC swaps. They are afraid the trans wil let go no matter what they do. Carbs aren't dead yet but with EFI systems like F.A.S.T.'s EZEFI there really is no reason not to go FI unless you are lite in the wallet.

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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

12.3 is faster than a 13.2

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Report this Post04-16-2015 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by FIEROPHREK:
I think that is what scares people away from built SBC swaps. They are afraid the trans wil let go no matter what they do. Carbs aren't dead yet but with EFI systems like F.A.S.T.'s EZEFI there really is no reason not to go FI unless you are lite in the wallet.


If you don't want to spend money, an SBC in a Fiero isn't the way to go, no matter how much power it makes. And a "built" SBC isn't going to be cheap by itself either. Then there's getting the trans "built." If you go auto, getting a 4t65e built to handle lots of power is going to cost up to $6000. Whether you go SBC or 3800. If you go manual with an F40, the cryo and LSD for that will be another $3000 on top of the trans itself, and the extra stuff needed to even install an F40.

Making power costs money. It doesn't matter what engine you use. If you are planning to make power, expect to spend a lot money, and break some parts. It will happen.
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