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GM is cracking down on the use of their Logos by TXOPIE
Started on: 03-16-2015 04:02 PM
Replies: 76 (1467 views)
Last post by: hyperv6 on 03-22-2015 06:17 PM
jaskispyder
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Report this Post03-18-2015 12:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NEVERDONE:

Ive had several things printed with logos, symbols, names, just about anything I wanted with no issues. Hell, the club shirts I designed used the pontiac logo AND the Pegasus. Like I said earlier, come to the darkside my friend! Are you just wanting some even stuff of you trying to make a new shirt for everyone to have?

See what you started opie?!!! Lol!



And the company that produced them made a profit off of GM's work. I know it happens, but that is really what this is about. The shirt company is financially benefiting from someone else's "product", without permission or payment. It seems innocent, but in reality they are stealing money from GM.

So, the Fiero Store is licensed, maybe some of the large t-shirt places are also.
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quote
Originally posted by css9450:

Didn't Dave K. ("Orief" on the forum) run into some issues when he was making the seatbelt pads with the Fiero logo? I think he stopped making them as a result.


As was Rodney Dickman - he was selling products with the logo in the past (spare tire cover, wheel center caps, etc) and was ordered to stop.
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Report this Post03-18-2015 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

I don't know what that club was doing with all the marks being used, and how they were using them, but every possible use is not legal without license or explicit permission. However, some uses are.

I know exactly what I'm talking about.


Just for the sake of the conversation, maybe there are legal documents that can be linked to clear this stuff up.
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quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Are you a trademark lawyer?


No, I'm a software engineer. I have to deal with possible copyright, trademark, and license agreement issues on a daily basis.


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Report this Post03-18-2015 01:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mrfred8:
No, I'm a software engineer. I have to deal with possible copyright, trademark, and license agreement issues on a daily basis.


Are you sure you're not a third grader? Because repeating what the other person says in an argument is what a child does.
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quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Are you sure you're not a third grader? Because repeating what the other person says in an argument is what a child does.


You asked a question. I answered with what my profession is. Yes we have the same profession. Now I am taking a break from this forum.

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Report this Post03-18-2015 01:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
Just for the sake of the conversation, maybe there are legal documents that can be linked to clear this stuff up.


Rogers v. Grimaldi, 875 F.2d 994 (2d Cir. 1989)

vis a vis "trademark fair use" (which is different from fair use re: copyright)
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Report this Post03-18-2015 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by mrfred8:
You asked a question. I answered with what my profession is. Yes we have the same profession. Now I am taking a break from this forum.


No, you copied my exact text word for word, in an obvious attempt to troll.

You are obviously not a software engineer.
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Report this Post03-18-2015 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mrfred8:


You asked a question. I answered with what my profession is. Yes we have the same profession. Now I am taking a break from this forum.


Just take a dobey break.
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Report this Post03-18-2015 01:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

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quote
Originally posted by dobey:

No, you copied my exact text word for word, in an obvious attempt to troll.

You are obviously not a software engineer.


Could you please stop being a reason people leave the forum?
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Report this Post03-18-2015 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
Could you please stop being a reason people leave the forum?


I am not the reason people are leaving the forum. If people are leaving here because of something I posted, then they have deeper issues to resolve that have nothing to do with me.

Why can't people on this forum be respectful and try to understand different viewpoints to their own, along with facts, rather than making childish attempts to insult people, claiming that someone they know nothing about doesn't know what they are talking about, and giving negative ratings for such simple disagreements?

Instead, can we stay on topic instead of having people try to make this another thread about me, because I replied in it, and some people disagree with me, for whatever unfounded reason they have for doing so? The thread is about the use of logo trademarks owned by GM in certain club materials, and the apparent increase of certain shirt printers requiring explicit permission documentation.
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Report this Post03-18-2015 02:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

I am not the reason people are leaving the forum. If people are leaving here because of something I posted, then they have deeper issues to resolve that have nothing to do with me.

Why can't people on this forum be respectful and try to understand different viewpoints to their own, along with facts, rather than making childish attempts to insult people, claiming that someone they know nothing about doesn't know what they are talking about, and giving negative ratings for such simple disagreements?

Instead, can we stay on topic instead of having people try to make this another thread about me, because I replied in it, and some people disagree with me, for whatever unfounded reason they have for doing so? The thread is about the use of logo trademarks owned by GM in certain club materials, and the apparent increase of certain shirt printers requiring explicit permission documentation.


I think you are a reason. I think if you stopped lacing personal insults into responses you would have much better results. I dont know who rates who for what, but your second paragraph is good advice.
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Report this Post03-18-2015 02:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I guess I look at it like if someone did happen to have something going on that was making them think about leaving or taking a break from the forum, due to something like attitudes, our posts can be the ones that pull them back in or push them out.
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Report this Post03-18-2015 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
I think you are a reason. I think if you stopped lacing personal insults into responses you would have much better results. I dont know who rates who for what, but your second paragraph is good advice.


I'm not the one lacing personal insults into my responses. I don't do that. If I want to make a personal insult I will do it directly.

On the other hand, every response in this thread from mrfred8, save for one, was a "laced personal insult" directed at me. And infinitewill jumped in with the assumption that copyright is at issue here, when it is not, and condescended me, attempting to direct the discussion toward copyright, which has nothing to do with the issues presented in this thread.

But of course, I am the bad guy, for trying to clarify and be helpful.
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Report this Post03-18-2015 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

I guess I look at it like if someone did happen to have something going on that was making them think about leaving or taking a break from the forum, due to something like attitudes, our posts can be the ones that pull them back in or push them out.


Perhaps, but people really do need to stop trying to find "attitude" (or emotion) in plain text bland technical statements on the Internet.
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Report this Post03-18-2015 02:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You're not a bad guy, and yeah arguments take at least two sides. Many of us could probably use a little more leeway granted to us.
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quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Rogers v. Grimaldi, 875 F.2d 994 (2d Cir. 1989)

vis a vis "trademark fair use" (which is different from fair use re: copyright)


Exactly, copyrights protects distribution of product, trademark protects items of branding. Copyrights are $30 (from my experience) & trademarks are like 6 figures.

Copyright covers 'copying' software, trademark covers 'methodology' & 'technical'. As I understand it, if someone is pirating software that I hold the copyright to, they are responsible for the cost of the product. If they re-brand the software, they are violating the trademark, if one exists. If it does not, it's a question of code, & good luck proving that in court. It really comes down to distribution rights.

Not sure what an of this has to do with t-shirts...

& cafe-press quality is sub-par anyway, again, just my opinion from my experience.

TXOPIE : You have a PM
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Report this Post03-18-2015 04:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by no2pencil:
Exactly, copyrights protects distribution of product, trademark protects items of branding. Copyrights are $30 (from my experience) & trademarks are like 6 figures.

Copyright covers 'copying' software, trademark covers 'methodology' & 'technical'. As I understand it, if someone is pirating software that I hold the copyright to, they are responsible for the cost of the product. If they re-brand the software, they are violating the trademark, if one exists. If it does not, it's a question of code, & good luck proving that in court. It really comes down to distribution rights.

Not sure what an of this has to do with t-shirts...

& cafe-press quality is sub-par anyway, again, just my opinion from my experience.

TXOPIE : You have a PM


Copyright is for this is the thing I created. If someone else tries to pass off your work as their own, that is a violation of copyright law. Whether distribution of something is a violation of that law or not, depends on whether you've granted any license to do so (this is what license agreements are for in software). The default is all rights reserved to the original author.

Trademark is for this word or symbolic design, which is used to represent other things I created. It is a mark used in the trade of goods (or service mark for services). This also depends on licensing, but in a different way. The ruling of Rogers v Grimaldi is where protection for parody and such, and the Rogers test comes from, when discussing trademark laws.

Patents are for these are the technical details and methodologies of how this thing I created, works. They're even more annoying.

What this has to do with t-shirts, is, if I design a t-shirt for a Pontiac Fiero car show, which has the words Pontiac and/or Fiero, and/or images of the arrowhead and/or the pegasus logos, it's legal to do so, under trademark fair use. The same reason you don't need to get permission from GM to have your hair dresser shave an arrowhead on your head, or to get a tattoo of it. It's why it's legal for me to draw my own version of the logo and use it on a web site or whatever. It starts leaning toward a copyright issue though, if you grab a random image off the Internet, that someone else made, and try to pass it off as your own or that you have the right to use it in some way. It starts getting problematic in the trademark realm, when you cause confusion or misrepresentation/defamation. This last thing is one of the big reasons Ferrari cracked down on all the kit makers for example. It gets into the realm of counterfeiting and fraud.
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Report this Post03-18-2015 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

What this has to do with t-shirts, is, if I design a t-shirt for a Pontiac Fiero car show, which has the words Pontiac and/or Fiero, and/or images of the arrowhead and/or the pegasus logos, it's legal to do so, under trademark fair use. The same reason you don't need to get permission from GM to have your hair dresser shave an arrowhead on your head, or to get a tattoo of it. It's why it's legal for me to draw my own version of the logo and use it on a web site or whatever..


In your explanation why does Cafe Press (for example) deny printing a photo of a car on a Tshirt when the car is owned by the person who wants the shirt, with the name of the car on it, and not even the same font or logo of the car company?
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Report this Post03-18-2015 04:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
In your explanation why does Cafe Press (for example) deny printing a photo of a car on a Tshirt when the car is owned by the person who wants the shirt, with the name of the car on it, and not even the same font or logo of the car company?


I don't know. Have they stated any particular reason for that, if you've tried to do that? They may have some policy where they don't do photos of cars. The trademark issue is one thing, but companies like CafePress have the right to refuse certain types of service as well. It may just be they have some broad policy to CYA, and photos of your personal vehicle fall under that policy.

I tried to find something in their FAQ, but this is the closest thing I could find:

 
quote

If I took a photo of a celebrity or company logo can I use it to make merchandise?

No, you may not and simply taking a photo of a person, company, brand, logo or the like does not afford you the right to sell merchandise featuring that photograph. There are two distinct intellectual property rights in a photograph: (1) the rights in the photograph itself and (2) the rights in the subject of the picture, such as the product or person shown in it. For example, if you take a photo of a celebrity, you only own the rights to the photo, but not the right to use the photo of a celebrity for merchandise sale. In order to sell merchandise with the image, you will need to obtain explicit permission from the celebrity.


I don't know if your question falls under that same policy or not, though. You'll have to ask them for an explicit reason as to why they'd refuse printing your photo of your car.
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[edit]

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 03-18-2015).]

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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


I think you are a reason. I think if you stopped lacing personal insults into responses you would have much better results. I dont know who rates who for what, but your second paragraph is good advice.



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Report this Post03-19-2015 09:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
I don't know if your question falls under that same policy or not, though. You'll have to ask them for an explicit reason as to why they'd refuse printing your photo of your car.


Heres the original thread.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/101650.html
Cafepress said in part:
"For example, if you create a design that looks similar to Mickey Mouse, even if you own the rights to the artwork or drawing, you may not own the rights to utilize the likeness of Mickey Mouse. Therefore the use of Mickey Mouse for sale of merchandise in this example may infringe on the rights of Disney.
...your use of the Dodge Charger image may infringe on the rights of the individual or organization that holds the Intellectual Property rights to the content"
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Report this Post03-19-2015 09:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
g.m. Has to crack down.. Like it or not, if they want to license out names and likeness.. and charge for it, they have to go after those that don't ask to use the "likeness" of their past..
To, us it makes no sense as there isn't a Pontiac anymore, nor a Fiero model car..
The larger places don't want to chance printing out a shirt/hat etc.. and have issues.. it's not worth it to them.. Others will do whatever you want, the smart ones will only do it as a cash job..
It's not so much the club shirts, hats, or a decal.. but you only have to goto flee bay to see why they have to clamp down.. as much listed on it, are coming from other countries, and are not just a few shirts for your local car club..
Sadly they can't pick and choose whom they go to task on and who to let slide by, as the ones they go after will bring up a list of items they didn't go after.. to try to get the case thrown out. or the fine/award lowered..

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Report this Post03-19-2015 10:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
Heres the original thread.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/101650.html
Cafepress said in part:
"For example, if you create a design that looks similar to Mickey Mouse, even if you own the rights to the artwork or drawing, you may not own the rights to utilize the likeness of Mickey Mouse. Therefore the use of Mickey Mouse for sale of merchandise in this example may infringe on the rights of Disney.
...your use of the Dodge Charger image may infringe on the rights of the individual or organization that holds the Intellectual Property rights to the content"


Right, so they're using that policy to CYA and just denying all such requests.
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Report this Post03-19-2015 10:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Right, so they're using that policy to CYA and just denying all such requests.


So.. a photo of ones own car cannot be put on a shirt.
You are saying its because they are using a policy that goes far beyond the law?

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 03-19-2015).]

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quote

If I took a photo of a celebrity or company logo can I use it to make merchandise?

No, you may not and simply taking a photo of a person, company, brand, logo or the like does not afford you the right to sell merchandise featuring that photograph. There are two distinct intellectual property rights in a photograph: (1) the rights in the photograph itself and (2) the rights in the subject of the picture, such as the product or person shown in it. For example, if you take a photo of a celebrity, you only own the rights to the photo, but not the right to use the photo of a celebrity for merchandise sale. In order to sell merchandise with the image, you will need to obtain explicit permission from the celebrity.


If this is true how does the paparazzi take pics of celebrities and then sell them to publications?
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Report this Post03-19-2015 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Right, so they're using that policy to CYA and just denying all such requests.


sounds like a company that's been burned on this once.. and is doing everything to not have a repeat
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Report this Post03-19-2015 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TXGOOD:


quote

If I took a photo of a celebrity or company logo can I use it to make merchandise?

No, you may not and simply taking a photo of a person, company, brand, logo or the like does not afford you the right to sell merchandise featuring that photograph. There are two distinct intellectual property rights in a photograph: (1) the rights in the photograph itself and (2) the rights in the subject of the picture, such as the product or person shown in it. For example, if you take a photo of a celebrity, you only own the rights to the photo, but not the right to use the photo of a celebrity for merchandise sale. In order to sell merchandise with the image, you will need to obtain explicit permission from the celebrity.


If this is true how does the paparazzi take pics of celebrities and then sell them to publications?

EASY, the media can't be forced to reveal the source.. so , lot of leg work to find who shot it..
making a shirt with charle sheen, drunk with the word winning under it, doesn't have that protection

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 03-19-2015).]

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Report this Post03-19-2015 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
So.. a photo of ones own car cannot be put on a shirt.
You are saying its because they are using a policy that goes far beyond the law?


It doesn't go beyond the law at all. But it does make it so they will refuse to print some things which may otherwise be just fine to print under the letter of trademark law.
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Report this Post03-19-2015 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXGOODClick Here to visit TXGOOD's HomePageSend a Private Message to TXGOODEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:

EASY, the media can't be forced to reveal the source.. so , lot of leg work to find who shot it..
making a shirt with charle sheen, drunk with the word winning under it, doesn't have that protection



Good point.
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2.5
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Report this Post03-19-2015 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:

It doesn't go beyond the law at all. .


It seems like that refutes the things you said could be done earlier in this thread.
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dobey
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Report this Post03-19-2015 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by 2.5:
It seems like that refutes the things you said could be done earlier in this thread.


Not at all. Any business has the right to refuse service (which I previously stated). Cafe Press is doing exactly that here. They feel that it may be problematic (even if in reality it would not be), and thus choose to refuse that service.

Whether it is legally viable for them to print a shirt with your personal vehicle in a photo on it, is irrelevant, when they've decided to put it under their own CYA policy and deny printing such photos.
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retroman
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Report this Post03-22-2015 06:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for retromanClick Here to Email retromanSend a Private Message to retromanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by jaskispyder:

The logos/trademarks belong to the company (they produced them, maintained them, etc). They have the legal right to control how they are used. It isn't about GM being mean, it is just good business practice to maintain your "branding".


Very true. A lot of Mustang oriented businesses were under fire from Ford a few years ago for using not only the emblems but the words Mustang, Stang, Pony, and FoMoCo to name a few. What was worse is that Shelby came down harder than Ford, mostly on those selling Cobra kit cars and knockoff parts. It really caused a lot of tension in the Shelby and Mustang community. How is a niche automotive business supposed to tell the world what it's about if it can't even put the cars name in its own name? But in the end it is their right, even if it causes the most loyal of enthusiasts to turn in the keys for a different nameplate.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post03-22-2015 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know on auto parts web sites even if you are selling a part for a Honda you have to jump through hoops to use the name. You have to word it a specific way or they will want to charge you for the use of their name.

Honda has been the most difficult.
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