Pennock's Fiero Forum
  General Fiero Chat
  Ever get frustrated?

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


next newest topic | next oldest topic
Ever get frustrated? by Tuna Helper
Started on: 02-23-2015 09:46 PM
Replies: 20 (533 views)
Last post by: rogergarrison on 03-08-2015 01:19 PM
Tuna Helper
Member
Posts: 458
From: Ft Wayne, IN, USA, Earth
Registered: Aug 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-23-2015 09:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tuna HelperClick Here to Email Tuna HelperSend a Private Message to Tuna HelperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am still having clutch issues. I posted about it awhile back (probably two years ago) about how my clutch will not disengage. I replaced the master and slave with Rodney Dickman parts and replaced the clutch pedal with no success. Spent three days trying to bleed it. Finally I pulled the cradle and split the engine and trans. (3800c, muncie) I found that the friction disc hub springs had bent/broken/fallen out. Also found that the previous owner who did the swap never cut down the flywheel. It chewed the ribs inside the bell housing, and he added shims between the engine and trans.

I had a new friction disc built, bought a new pressure plate assembly, and had the flywheel cut down to .840. Now that it's back together, the clutch still doesn't disengage. It tries, I can hold the clutch pedal down and start the engine with the trans in gear, but with the motor started I can't put it in gear.

I'm getting about an inch of travel at the slave. I have been tapping on the master all day trying to get air out, and just when I think I've got it, I get more. I've bled the slave as well. I tried to vacuum bleed, pulled about three resevoirs worth of fluid out through the slave. The pedal is at least an inch if not more, above the brake, the banjo is up, and there is just the smallest amount of free play at the top of pedal travel.

Sooo... I thought that maybe, because of what the seller told me, that I may have a mismatched master and slave, but the Muncie and the Isuzu appear to use the same slave, and I haven't found positive info, but it seems to me that the early master and later master have the same bore, so there should be no issue there.

I jacked up the car and checked the flexible section in the front, it's braided stainless and felt fine. There is no flexible section in the back.

I didn't look at the clutch arm while it was out of the car, but I am also reading that they sometimes crack and break. How likely is this? If I pull the pushrod back, the arm feels solid.

I really really don't want to drop the cradle again, but I also don't want to pull the master or even disconnect the line for bench bleeding.

Who has an idea I haven't tried yet?


So yeah, I'm frustrated.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
pontiackid86
Member
Posts: 19600
From: Kingwood Texas..... Yall
Registered: Sep 2008


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 342
Rate this member

Report this Post02-23-2015 10:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
jack the back driver side end of the car up and unscrew the bleeder
IP: Logged
Tuna Helper
Member
Posts: 458
From: Ft Wayne, IN, USA, Earth
Registered: Aug 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-23-2015 10:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tuna HelperClick Here to Email Tuna HelperSend a Private Message to Tuna HelperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Had the back end up, front end up, drivers side up, none makes a difference.


I did read the Archie method, I bled the slave twice, I should have done it 5 times. I'll get back on that in the morning.
IP: Logged
Csjag
Member
Posts: 3170
From: Ocklawaha,Fl, USA
Registered: Dec 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-24-2015 07:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Maybe a tiny hole in the hard line?
IP: Logged
woodyhere
Member
Posts: 399
From: prior lake, MN USA
Registered: Aug 2011


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-24-2015 08:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for woodyhereClick Here to Email woodyhereSend a Private Message to woodyhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As far as bleeding the system, I used a speed bleeder like the ones for a brake caliper. Can't remember which size but it makes bleeding the cylinder a snap - as well as the calipers. Make sure the bleeder screw screws in with resistance. I got one speed bleeder without enough red sealant. It screwed in too easy and let air back into the system. Hopefully someone on the forum will know the part number. I hate hearing about these long term issues. My 87 has been dead since last summer. No revival in sight. Best of luck getting yours going again!

------------------
woodys 427

IP: Logged
Tuna Helper
Member
Posts: 458
From: Ft Wayne, IN, USA, Earth
Registered: Aug 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-24-2015 09:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tuna HelperClick Here to Email Tuna HelperSend a Private Message to Tuna HelperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't see any leaks anywhere. I've been reading every clutch thread I can. When I say I am getting air out, it's through the big hole in the resevoir, which according to this thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/126196.html is the return port.

Something else, I have tried gravity bleeding and it doesn't work. I've had the front up in the air, master way above the slave, and I get nothing at the slave. Maybe the best thing to try next is to get a big syringe and pressure bleed from the slave.
IP: Logged
tebailey
Member
Posts: 2617
From: Bay City MI
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-24-2015 09:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tuna Helper:

I don't see any leaks anywhere. I've been reading every clutch thread I can. When I say I am getting air out, it's through the big hole in the resevoir, which according to this thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/126196.html is the return port.

Something else, I have tried gravity bleeding and it doesn't work. I've had the front up in the air, master way above the slave, and I get nothing at the slave. Maybe the best thing to try next is to get a big syringe and pressure bleed from the slave.


Wrong end of the car, air rises. That will only work for getting the air out of the master, won't get the air out going up to the slave. Jack the back up and try again.

[This message has been edited by tebailey (edited 02-24-2015).]

IP: Logged
Tuna Helper
Member
Posts: 458
From: Ft Wayne, IN, USA, Earth
Registered: Aug 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-24-2015 11:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tuna HelperClick Here to Email Tuna HelperSend a Private Message to Tuna HelperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I did a pressure bleed, forcing the fluid from the slave back to the master. Ran about 4 ounces through that way. Then had my gf come out and we did the Archie method. That got some more air out of the slave. Adjusted the banjo so there is no play. We are now up to 1-1/8 of travel measured on the pushrod. And still!!

Rodney says that some clutches don't like to be pushed all the way, so I tried to shift it with the motor running at different points in the clutch travel, no good.

I don't see any leaks anywhere.

The clutch lever appears ok.

I guess the last thing to do before it all comes out is to bench bleed the master again. I hate to do that and introduce air into the line again.
IP: Logged
crt454
Member
Posts: 292
From: Montana
Registered: Feb 2006


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-24-2015 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crt454Send a Private Message to crt454Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
have you looked at the bracket your slave mounts up to? Rodney sells this, 85-86 V6 4-Speed Steel Replacement Slave Bracket, it fixed the problem on my first Fiero.
IP: Logged
LornesGT
Member
Posts: 1301
From: Granite City, IL
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-24-2015 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LornesGTSend a Private Message to LornesGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you have travel the maybe its not the right throw out bearing. I am no expert but mine did come with the wrong one, 4 speed 2.8.
IP: Logged
Mickey_Moose
Member
Posts: 7292
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: May 2001


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 142
Rate this member

Report this Post02-27-2015 02:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mickey_MooseClick Here to visit Mickey_Moose's HomePageClick Here to Email Mickey_MooseSend a Private Message to Mickey_MooseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you are getting an inch of travel on the slave, then you should have enough travel there - has to be internal (throwout bearing (has to match the transmission, and I too have had the wrong bearing come with the clutch), etc).

You could also be introducing air into the system as you loosen the bleed screw as air can get past the threads. What has worked for me, press clutch pedal and hold, open bleed screw, press slave push rod in and hold, close bleed screw, release slave rod and clutch pedal, press clutch pedal to reseat slave rod, check and fill master, repeat. It may help if the driver's rear is raised a bit, but I have never done so.

Did you use Rodney's double seal slave (or build your own - MR2 rebuild kit IIRC) - those work way better.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 02-27-2015).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
tebailey
Member
Posts: 2617
From: Bay City MI
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-27-2015 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:

If you are getting an inch of travel on the slave, then you should have enough travel there - has to be internal (throwout bearing (has to match the transmission, and I too have had the wrong bearing come with the clutch), etc).

You could also be introducing air into the system as you loosen the bleed screw as air can get past the threads. What has worked for me, press clutch pedal and hold, open bleed screw, press slave push rod in and hold, close bleed screw, release slave rod and clutch pedal, press clutch pedal to reseat slave rod, check and fill master, repeat. It may help if the driver's rear is raised a bit, but I have never done so.

Did you use Rodney's double seal slave (or build your own - MR2 rebuild kit IIRC) - those work way better.



That's pretty much how I bled mine, works great and never had any trouble since.
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41185
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 178
Rate this member

Report this Post02-27-2015 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:
That's pretty much how I bled mine, works great and never had any trouble since.


Me too.
IP: Logged
Mickey_Moose
Member
Posts: 7292
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: May 2001


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 142
Rate this member

Report this Post03-03-2015 01:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mickey_MooseClick Here to visit Mickey_Moose's HomePageClick Here to Email Mickey_MooseSend a Private Message to Mickey_MooseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
BTW - I used a stick cut to length to hold the clutch pedal down (placed between pedal and seat bottom).
IP: Logged
2fiero2
Member
Posts: 54
From: orlando, florida
Registered: Apr 2008


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post03-03-2015 02:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2fiero2Click Here to Email 2fiero2Send a Private Message to 2fiero2Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you did not bench bleed your master when you first installed, air is certainly in there. I would start there just to be sure. I also use the wood wedged between the seat and pedal. It takes time but works, no jacking car up.

Also make sure the clutch arm is not bent. The 4 speed is know to fail because of the stamped steel part twisting. I know because just went thru this with mine. Replaced with a solid one from the Fiero store. While I was at replacing the arm I also changed to Rodney Dickman's slave bracket to eliminate any flex there as well.

Works like new, very smooth.

[This message has been edited by 2fiero2 (edited 03-03-2015).]

IP: Logged
2fiero2
Member
Posts: 54
From: orlando, florida
Registered: Apr 2008


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post03-03-2015 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2fiero2Click Here to Email 2fiero2Send a Private Message to 2fiero2Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can bleed the master with it in the car. Just need an extra fitting to the master attached to a short piece of hose run back into the masters reservoir. Fill with fluid and gently push pedal until air is gone.

IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41185
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 178
Rate this member

Report this Post03-04-2015 08:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:

BTW - I used a stick cut to length to hold the clutch pedal down (placed between pedal and seat bottom).


I used a long 2x4 with the car door open, if you can picture that
IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 14221
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 190
Rate this member

Report this Post03-04-2015 09:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is your clutch arm stamped or cast?
IP: Logged
Tuna Helper
Member
Posts: 458
From: Ft Wayne, IN, USA, Earth
Registered: Aug 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post03-04-2015 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tuna HelperClick Here to Email Tuna HelperSend a Private Message to Tuna HelperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It is stamped. I'm considering ordering the cast one along with a new throwout bearing. Somewhere else Rodney says that 1-1/8 of travel is all there is, so whatever s going on is not the fault of the hydraulics.
And I might spring for a new fork, too.
IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 14221
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 190
Rate this member

Report this Post03-04-2015 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The cast is far superior to the stamped.
Don't be too surprised if that solves your problem.
Do not take the car apart until you replace the arm with a cast unit.
IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49593
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 552
Rate this member

Report this Post03-08-2015 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pre mid 86s had a steel, welded together concoction for a clutch arm. Mine fell apart one day and I couldnt use the clutch at all. I replaced it with the solid one piece one. It was a GM kit when I got it and came with a new pivot shaft. It just presses in and they are different for the one piece and the other. Be sure to install the pivot prelubed with permanent grease as it cant be greased after its installed.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot

next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock