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Lift-off/snap oversteer by chriswf
Started on: 02-10-2015 11:03 AM
Replies: 27 (1055 views)
Last post by: zkhennings on 02-13-2015 03:15 PM
chriswf
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Report this Post02-10-2015 11:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for chriswfClick Here to Email chriswfSend a Private Message to chriswfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is this really an issue with Fieros?
I've been a LONG time fan of Fieros. ALMOST had a rare blue 87 a few years back but the guy sold it minutes before I got there.
I let go of the idea but not the passion for the cars, and spent (wasted) my money elsewhere.

Back at saving again, more than enough for a Fiero AND a swap.
But... I have a family now. THOUGHT about just keeping the Fiero as a toy or a car I drive to work if I don't have to pick the kid up.
ALSO, thought about just leaving the GTPs engine in a GTP lol.

But something I never read about here, was the oversteering issues that MR cars are supposed to have.

I've seen MR2 videos where they do this, but any Fiero videos I see seem to do pretty good at the track.

Is it a thing for us?
I'm really weighing out the pros and cons here...

Edit: I won't drive on the track, but I do have a heavy foot on the street and turn at higher speeds. I've just never handled a MR car, not sure if I could handle that yet.

[This message has been edited by chriswf (edited 02-10-2015).]

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Report this Post02-10-2015 11:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
GM was worried about oversteer when they sold the Fiero. The stock setups were designed to understeer, but with changes in tires, wheels, suspension over time, a lot of Fieros do not understeer any more. With worn out suspensions and bad tires, oversteer can kill you, so it's good to be careful, and know the particular car well before you push it through a corner. I have never owned a car more responsive to changes in tire quality....You can put on a new set of tires and drive it a block and swear it's a different car. Thats both good and bad.

I should add that my car is an 88, and behaves differently than earlier years I am told, although they were all designed to understeer from the factory.

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 02-10-2015).]

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Report this Post02-10-2015 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lateFormulaSend a Private Message to lateFormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To answer the OP's question: YES the Fiero does suffer from lift off/ snap oversteer. If you are driving down a road with you foot on the gas and then suddenly lift your foot off the gas and attempt an emergency lane change the rear end of the car will let go and spin around on you. It is the basic nature of any mid or rear engined car. If you know to keep your foot on the gas so the engine is still propelling the vehicle along, the Fiero will track well where ever your steer it (within the limits of traction that the tires will provide).

[This message has been edited by lateFormula (edited 02-10-2015).]

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Report this Post02-10-2015 12:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's called drop throttle oversteer, but it doesn't happen quite the way lateFormula described it. For starters, if you're travelling straight and lift your foot off the gas there should be no yaw or change in steering input required unless your suspension is worn. Nor does drop throttle oversteer happen if you lift off the throttle and then enter into a corner or change a lane. It's only once you're in a corner and then lift off the throttle that the tendency of the car is to oversteer, and even then all that happens is that as you lift off the gas, the tail of the car tries to point the nose tighter into the corner. It doesn't "snap" dangerously unless you're near the limit of adhesion, in which case it can spin the car around.

The bottom line is it's never a problem if you drive like 95% of drivers. On the other hand if you're among the 5% who push their cars to the limit, if you find yourself entering into a curve too quickly to hold a line, then don't suddenly lift off the throttle and apply the brakes... that will likely make you spin out. Just ease off the gas and use the throttle to tighten or loosen your line.
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chriswf
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Report this Post02-10-2015 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for chriswfClick Here to Email chriswfSend a Private Message to chriswfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

It's called drop throttle oversteer, but it doesn't happen quite the way lateFormula described it. For starters, if you're travelling straight and lift your foot off the gas there should be no yaw or change in steering input required unless your suspension is worn. Nor does drop throttle oversteer happen if you lift off the throttle and then enter into a corner or change a lane. It's only once you're in a corner and then lift off the throttle that the tendency of the car is to oversteer, and even then all that happens is that as you lift off the gas, the tail of the car tries to point the nose tighter into the corner. It doesn't "snap" dangerously unless you're near the limit of adhesion, in which case it can spin the car around.

The bottom line is it's never a problem if you drive like 95% of drivers. On the other hand if you're among the 5% who push their cars to the limit, if you find yourself entering into a curve too quickly to hold a line, then don't suddenly lift off the throttle and apply the brakes... that will likely make you spin out. Just ease off the gas and use the throttle to tighten or loosen your line.


I drive my car hard. Any car I have. I'm the master at destroying bearings.
My last work car... 6+ bearing replacements. Good year won't even fulfill their warranty with me anymore.
I've been through Timken and North American bearings. I have to MAKE myself corner like a baby.
Driver side bearings are my worst.

My mechanic friends can't believe it, by they all say it has to be my driving. I have ruined bearings in a few cars, as well as suspension components.

That... Makes me nervous. I have lost control in my fwd cars but I can feel the control in the steering wheel. I don't know how to describe it other than it gets kinda loose right before I lose control.

I don't think a fiero will be the same.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 02:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you're lucky you can use Bloozeberry's description of snap oversteer to your advantage. While testing the limits with FieroChild and Raydar on The Tail of The Dragon, I hit a curve too hard in my 87 and was already realizing that the understeer was going to put me into an embankment on a 180 degree switchback. I downshifted and dumped the clutch without match-reving the engine. The front end dipped, the rear lifted and came around and as I began to line up on the other side of the curve, I floored it and continued on our way. If you're going to test it out, I suggest you find a big big empty parking lot or if you have the opportunity to get on a skid pad, try getting at the center of it's radius. Accelerate until your tires start to squeal then put on the brakes or lift off the accelerator. The reason I recommend the center of the radius is so that you have time to get the car back under control before it leaves the pad. The center also gives you a moderate amount of speed as compared to close to the center of the pad. Something I learned during the Professional Driving Xperience at Road Atlanta is to listen to your tires when you're in a turn. When they start to squeal, you are beginning to lose traction. They stressed that if you have enough traction to brake in a curve, you have enough traction to steer and locked up tires do not steer.

I've done 180's twice on snow at about 35 mph and a 270 once at about 70 and that one was really scary since it was in the center of 6 lanes of interstate traffic. Air freshener time.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 02-10-2015).]

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Report this Post02-10-2015 02:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by chriswf:

I don't think a fiero will be the same.


You're right... when you push a Fiero over the limit....the rear end comes around before you can say oops.

Another thing for you to consider: For those who race Fieros, wheel bearing life is an issue.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for chriswfClick Here to Email chriswfSend a Private Message to chriswfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:


You're right... when you push a Fiero over the limit....the rear end comes around before you can say oops.

Another thing for you to consider: For those who race Fieros, wheel bearing life is an issue.


Hmm... I was always told fieros were top notch at handling. Then I learned about the spinning aspect...

And I've been known to burn through Duralast bearings in 2 weeks (in 2 weeks I had drone noise) twice.
That's when Good Year got me North American, and in a couple months I rolled those out. Then they gave me Duralast again and told me I don't have warranty on them anymore.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by chriswf:


Hmm... I was always told fieros were top notch at handling. Then I learned about the spinning aspect...

And I've been known to burn through Duralast bearings in 2 weeks (in 2 weeks I had drone noise) twice.
That's when Good Year got me North American, and in a couple months I rolled those out. Then they gave me Duralast again and told me I don't have warranty on them anymore.

I would say that they do handle excellently for normal street driving.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

I would say that they do handle excellently for normal street driving.


They handle very well for aggressive driving, too, but like any vehicle, there's a limit and once you lose traction, any vehicle can be hard to recover.

A thought about bearing short term bearing failure. I replaced my bearings on my 87 some 10+ years ago, using Timken bearings. Anyone who knows me can attest that I've put it through thousands and thousands of hard curves in those years. Just this weekend, I replaced the front bearings due to a hum or rumble. The only thing available were Chinese made, Mexican made, or Japanese made. I offer that either they are poor quality bearings or they are improperly installed and adjusted or lubed.

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Report this Post02-10-2015 05:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
84-87 w/ iffy rubber cradle bushings alone can steer the car. Manual trans are worse but auto trans can do it too.
Double check all others.
See my Cave, Bushings

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

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Report this Post02-10-2015 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fieros handle fine and have decently high handling limits.

When I first got my Fiero, I was taking this girl for a spin in my new car (I was 18). Driving down main street in my town, there was a light sprinkling of rain. I took a left turn pretty fast onto the road my high school was on and the back end let go because of the rain. Now, IF at the time I knew what I was doing, then "when in doubt, power out" would have applied. It actually let go in a very predictable manner.

However I was heading straight for a minivan in the opposite lane and panicked and hit the brakes while trying to turn the other way. Now I became the victim of snap oversteer when the car changed direction in a heartbeat and spun 270 on me so fast.

Basically, MR can handle very well, the car is very balanced, the nose is light and changes direction fast, and the rear likes to stay planted. As was stated, as the car approaches the limit it lets you know, but when it gets past the limit, it wants to spin very suddenly. As long as you are prepared for this it is fine, it is never a surprise if you know the car.

The only other situation I have found where I do not like MR layout is when you get a tank slapper going. Which is basically when you are coming out of a slide but your front wheels are not pointed in the perfect direction, so the car starts sliding the opposite direction, and it fluctuates like this as you try to get it back in control. It is very easy to lose a tank slapper in the Fiero, sometimes coming out of a slide where the wheels are not pointed perfectly, it will whip the other direction very fast and I have found this to be the hardest to save.

Now I have learned to make sure the wheels are pointing in the right direction. Thankfully there is decent feedback through the powerless steering and you can feel when the wheels are pointing the right direction.

Oh and the entire phenomenon exists because the center of mass is closer to the rear of the car, therefore when the wheels lose grip, they also lose the ability to direct the car's mass, and the center of mass wants to lead. That's why in a car with a weight balance more to the front of the car this does not occur. Because the center of mass is already leading.
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chriswf
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Report this Post02-10-2015 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for chriswfClick Here to Email chriswfSend a Private Message to chriswfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hmm... This is quite strange to say, and NOBODY (especially FB friends) could imagine me saying this. But I might let my deep Fiero dream go.
And by deep dream, I mean like bottomless.
I have no tattoos, and if I had gotten a Fiero, my first might could have been the fiero badge.

I always thought a light weight MR car was for me.

Granted I put 188,000 miles on my car, 99.9999% of that was all done by me (in 4 years, it's a 2010). I can lose control and for the most part always regain it perfectly. But it being FWD and working as a pissed off Foreclosure Inspector, I learned that car quick.

Not so sure I could do the same with a Fiero. Especially with 2-3x as much HP (or more) in the Fiero.
With a heavy foot? In the rain sometimes?
Don't think I could deal with myself if I destroyed a Fiero - no offence to anyone here.

I don't know what to do with myself with that dream gone.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds like a smart decision. This car is not for everyone.....

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 02-10-2015).]

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Report this Post02-10-2015 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have some curvy two lane roads around here in the forest and I can take them at twice the posted speed limit with no problem but I drive according to road conditions, I wouldn't do it on a wet road in any of my cars. My Fiero actually has a better ride than my 07 Mustang convertible.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

My Fiero actually has a better ride than my 07 Mustang convertible.




My parents own an 06' Mustang and it has a ride that doesn't compare to my 86 GT. The seats in the fiero also seem to fit me better than the mustang.

For the OP:

Here is a motor week special im sure many of us have watched before. Within the first 10 seconds you'll see they demonstrate on an 86' GT the lift off over steer. They also explain how it can be avoided.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKxO_fiZO7Y
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Report this Post02-10-2015 07:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
if a Fiero scares you, never buy a 911
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chriswf
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Report this Post02-10-2015 08:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for chriswfClick Here to Email chriswfSend a Private Message to chriswfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zzzhuh:




My parents own an 06' Mustang and it has a ride that doesn't compare to my 86 GT. The seats in the fiero also seem to fit me better than the mustang.

For the OP:

Here is a motor week special im sure many of us have watched before. Within the first 10 seconds you'll see they demonstrate on an 86' GT the lift off over steer. They also explain how it can be avoided.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKxO_fiZO7Y


Yeah I've seen lots of people demonstrate this in mr2s. I looked into it a lot (in a panic) but had to ask again to make sure.

I've heard how to avoid it. Just in a panic or goofy moveyou could mess up bad.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 09:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:

if a Fiero scares you, never buy a 911


Isn't snap over steer what killed Paul Walker?
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Report this Post02-10-2015 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry I wasnt feeling good yesterday and it didnt come out correctly

[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 02-11-2015).]

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Report this Post02-10-2015 09:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for chriswfClick Here to Email chriswfSend a Private Message to chriswfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by solotwo:

sounds like you dont know how to drive. Going through wheel bearings that fast. Hmmm something is wrong.


I've probably put at least million miles under my belt in the 11 years I've been driving. Mostly due to my foreclosure inspecting job (hour to and from my work area, then drive ALL day in that work area).

0 accidents. Not even other peoples fault.

Drive hard; you're going to break stuff.
When you're paid per job, you hustle man.

Edit: that job did have it's perks though, I have like 50+ different fiero pics from just the last few years alone. I used to post them in "have you seen a fiero today?"

[This message has been edited by chriswf (edited 02-10-2015).]

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Report this Post02-10-2015 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jim94Click Here to Email jim94Send a Private Message to jim94Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The fiero does unload so I would try a better set up that will use your sway bars,shocks springs and tires to there full potential. Rodney dickmans end links helped me slowing down the unload of the suspension. No more twitch.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 10:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can get rid of snap throttle oversteer by putting bigger tires in the back .The 86 on GT's came with 205 front 215 back .Not big enough spread to solve the problem .I run 205 front and 245 rear .I can wag the tail with throttle and bring it in by laying off the throttle .A big mistake most people make is they put the same size tires on all 4 corners .Even if you go with much larger tires all the way around , you have made the problem worse .
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Report this Post02-11-2015 07:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does this snap throttle over steer even apply to a street stock Fiero driven at legal speeds or even 5 to 10 mph above legal speeds? I have been driving for 48 years and I have never had a wheel bearing go out on me.

[This message has been edited by Csjag (edited 02-11-2015).]

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Report this Post02-11-2015 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote


The only other situation I have found where I do not like MR layout is when you get a tank slapper going. Which is basically when you are coming out of a slide but your front wheels are not pointed in the perfect direction, so the car starts sliding the opposite direction, and it fluctuates like this as you try to get it back in control. It is very easy to lose a tank slapper in the Fiero, sometimes coming out of a slide where the wheels are not pointed perfectly, it will whip the other direction very fast and I have found this to be the hardest to save.

Now I have learned to make sure the wheels are pointing in the right direction. Thankfully there is decent feedback through the powerless steering and you can feel when the wheels are pointing the right direction.

Oh and the entire phenomenon exists because the center of mass is closer to the rear of the car, therefore when the wheels lose grip, they also lose the ability to direct the car's mass, and the center of mass wants to lead. That's why in a car with a weight balance more to the front of the car this does not occur. Because the center of mass is already leading.


No, matter the vehicle set up, rear engine ,mid engine ,front engine, RWD,FWD, AWD.. drivers That haven't learnt their vehicle are known to over correct And I mean your vehicle not that model. the longer you drive it, the better you get at knowing what the car wants at the limit and past it.. and even if you are not driving a race car, SEAT TIME is king..
The Fiero with it's limited room for anything but two people can make "seat time" even harder, as the car with nothing in the rear trunk, and then putting stuff in the rear trunk changes the way the car will react. the more weight behind the rear axle the more of a pendulum effect it will cause.. and why my tool kit, is in the front,with the spare.
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Report this Post02-11-2015 11:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jim94Click Here to Email jim94Send a Private Message to jim94Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The reason my trunk is empty and yes I raced carts and my friends raced or race dirt modifieds in n.j. too many hours on set up and driving talked about .
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Report this Post02-11-2015 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

Does this snap throttle over steer even apply to a street stock Fiero driven at legal speeds or even 5 to 10 mph above legal speeds? I have been driving for 48 years and I have never had a wheel bearing go out on me.



It could apply in the case of an emergency evasive move, say to dodge a child or animal or vehicle suddenly coming into your path. On surface roads, that might occur at speeds up to 60 mph. Whip to the left to avoid while letting off on the throttle or hitting the brake and 'round you go.

A rear swaybar would probably help on the earlier models.
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Report this Post02-13-2015 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I took my Fiero drifting in the snow all last year, I mean really drifting, not just hitting the gas halfway through the turn, I mean linking every turn and using momentum to swing the car from turn to turn sideways the whole time. This essentially utilizes the lift off oversteer where you lift at the end of the turn to upset the rear and are prepared to point the car where you now want to go before planting the rear when you roll on the gas.

I was spoiled and had access to an abandoned Sam's Club (like BJ's or Costco aka HUGE) parking lot, which would get a sweet track plowed into it probably a 1 minute circuit with around 8 turns, so I got lots of practice.

I have since gotten an 02 WRX and have been having tons of fun with it in the snow the North East has been getting.

Both cars are very fun to drive, but the Front engine AWD is ridiculously forgiving, and I can get off the gas to snap oversteer much less carefully. In the Fiero I would be prepared for the snap, it happens fast and you have to "catch" it as it comes around (that's really what it feels like) or the car would enter the next turn backwards haha.

It honestly just takes a little parking lot time to get used to, also FWD cars lose grip easier I feel since the wheels have to turn the car and provide all the power which is a pulling force, a good recipe to lose traction.

I love driving both cars, I have done high speed maneuvers in both. The Fiero can change direction FAST there is no weight up front so the nose dives in and the heavier rear just follows, it is very fun to own, and if I were you I wouldn't worry about crashing it unless you are truly a bad driver, which doesn't seem to be the case from this conversation.
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