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New Corvette Looking Like It Will Just Be A New Fiero by DKcustoms
Started on: 01-09-2015 04:20 PM
Replies: 104 (2260 views)
Last post by: tshark on 01-17-2015 01:39 PM
DKcustoms
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Report this Post01-09-2015 04:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DKcustomsSend a Private Message to DKcustomsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Read it and decide for yourself.
Personally, I'm super excited.
Hopefully I'll be able to afford one if my career continues

C8 Vette
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Report this Post01-09-2015 04:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXOPIEClick Here to visit TXOPIE's HomePageClick Here to Email TXOPIESend a Private Message to TXOPIEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



Hmm...has a similar feel to Barbie Re-Active Body a body I PhotoShopped but never built...yet

[This message has been edited by TXOPIE (edited 01-09-2015).]

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Report this Post01-09-2015 04:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It will be nothing at all like the Fiero.
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Report this Post01-09-2015 05:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero VampireSend a Private Message to Fiero VampireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd say closer to 88 swaped Fiero than a 88 C4 vette. Just my opinion anyways.
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Report this Post01-09-2015 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiero Vampire:

I'd say closer to 88 swaped Fiero than a 88 C4 vette. Just my opinion anyways.


It will look more like a Ferrari and Lamborghini smashed into each other and had a baby, than any Pontiac or previous GM vehicle.
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Report this Post01-09-2015 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DKcustomsSend a Private Message to DKcustomsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

It will be nothing at all like the Fiero.


Radiator up front, trunk space behind the motor as well as some room up front, 2 seats, mid engined, a GM car, 4 windows, 2 doors, 4 wheels, 4 tires

I think I just described both a Fiero and the C8 Corvette
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Report this Post01-09-2015 06:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DKcustoms:
Radiator up front, trunk space behind the motor as well as some room up front, 2 seats, mid engined, a GM car, 4 windows, 2 doors, 4 wheels, 4 tires

I think I just described both a Fiero and the C8 Corvette


You're assuming there will be a radiator in the front and a trunk in the rear. And even if they were, it would still be absolutely nothing like a Fiero. If they manage to pull the weight down below 3000, that would be the closest resemblance to a Fiero it would have.

A rear radiator would probably be more effective, and it would allow better aero in the front to reduce drag and improve fuel economy. Exhaust to meet regulations for noise and emissions will pretty much prevent any trunk from being in the rear, and that's assuming it will only have 6.2L of displacement with the LT4. With the return of the LT RPO codes, I'd be more interested in seeing if they bring back the LT5 code, and what it would be exactly. It will probably also be a dry or damp sump oiling system, which means the oil tank has to go somewhere.

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Report this Post01-09-2015 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So will this be built alongside the current corvette or be a replacement?
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Report this Post01-09-2015 06:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mrfred8Click Here to visit mrfred8's HomePageSend a Private Message to mrfred8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

So will this be built alongside the current corvette or be a replacement?



Everything I have read is that it will be built alongside the current vette and cost alot more then the current vette.
All speculation so for though.
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Report this Post01-09-2015 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SourmugSend a Private Message to SourmugEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post01-09-2015 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

It will be nothing at all like the Fiero.


But, but... it will be mid engined and have TIRES!! That's practically identical!
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Report this Post01-09-2015 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
.........

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 01-09-2015).]

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Report this Post01-09-2015 10:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First thing to do is disregard this photo of the red car from Car and Driver.

Yes Chevy will have a new mid engine Corvette C8 offered along side the C7 Stingray but the concept presented here is only a guess. Add to this it was based on a drawing of a designer who did the Ford GT and works for Ford.

If you want a clue on the new car look at the Car and Driver web site and they have 15 shots of the new car dressed with Holden parts to make it look like a Ute. While the nose and tails are just covers the roof and Greenhouse are the real deal and will give you an idea of what some of it will look like. Also the front axle to windshield will also give you an Idea of how low and wide the nose will be.

The only Fiero trait here will be the engine is behind the driver.

If you want a better idea of what to expect check out Motor Trends version in the November edition. It is closer to reality but even it is just an educated guess but it is based on what they have heard. Also I think they based it on the prototype racers too.

I just hope now the people who did not believe me a few months ago that this was a real deal will now accept that this is really going to happen.

It will not be cheap at first as only a top level model will be sold along side the C7 but in time cheaper version will come to market as the mid engine layout expands.

The car will have a pushrod V8 and at some point could be pushed to 1000 HP based on they can already get the LT engine there. The only issue is hooking the car up. They also have plans for a hybrid system and other engines at some point as time goes on. The hybrid could be a 300 HP electric drive in the front to compliment the rear drive gas unit.

I expect to see this car about a year from now at the 2016 Detroit show.

Note the mule photos may be a controlled leak as Ford will announce the new Ford GT at Detroit in a couple weeks. They used Chris Doane. I know him and GM has used him to get the photos of just what they want shown and he makes pretty good money selling them. Leaks like this are rare anymore and they are often controlled. Just like the new Camaro photos that came out about the time the new Mustang was introduced.

I hope most will just sit back and enjoy what is going to happen as it is rare for company like GM to do something like this. To have a car as good as the Z06 and then top it only a few years later and sell both is very special no matter if you agree or disagree with what they are doing.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 01-09-2015).]

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Report this Post01-09-2015 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DKcustomsSend a Private Message to DKcustomsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


You're assuming there will be a radiator in the front and a trunk in the rear. And even if they were, it would still be absolutely nothing like a Fiero. If they manage to pull the weight down below 3000, that would be the closest resemblance to a Fiero it would have.
If you read the article, you would see where they mention the probability of the front radiator and rear trunk. Weight would have nothing to do with "resemblance" because that word has to do with appearances instead of weight. You really can't compare a 30+ year old car with iron blocks to a futuristic modern car with aluminum and 2-4 more cylinders and expect the weights to be identical

A rear radiator would probably be more effective, and it would allow better aero in the front to reduce drag and improve fuel economyyes, but again, the article mentions a front radiator. Exhaust to meet regulations for noise and emissions will pretty much prevent any trunk from being in the rear, and that's assuming it will only have 6.2L of displacement with the LT4. With the return of the LT RPO codes, I'd be more interested in seeing if they bring back the LT5 code, and what it would be exactly. It will probably also be a dry or damp sump oiling system, which means the oil tank has to go somewhere.

[This message has been edited by DKcustoms (edited 01-09-2015).]

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Report this Post01-09-2015 11:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Why is this always being discussed on this forum? We'll have the same guys arguing over nothing for 3 or 4 pages and wasting space. If you want a Corvette, join a Vette forum. It has nothing to do with the Fiero and the 2 cars are worlds apart.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 12:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LornesGTSend a Private Message to LornesGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't know I think Archie and Madcurl designed it.



[This message has been edited by LornesGT (edited 01-10-2015).]

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Report this Post01-10-2015 12:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LornesGT:

I don't know I think Archie and Madcurl designed it.




Thats the only thing in common between the two cars ........Archies V8 conversion kit and a Corvette motor.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 03:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
.... Ugggg when will this crap ever stop...... the fiero it dead.. we love them yes but its dead. Pontiac is dead... This is like saying 90% of ferraries made are just like a fiero.. this is like saying 90% of every Porsches made are like fieros... The closest thing we had to being another fiero was the solstice and even it was not mid engine... Let it go
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Report this Post01-10-2015 10:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:

Why is this always being discussed on this forum? We'll have the same guys arguing over nothing for 3 or 4 pages and wasting space. If you want a Corvette, join a Vette forum. It has nothing to do with the Fiero and the 2 cars are worlds apart.


Because someone really wants the mid-engine C8 to be a Fiero. Dreamers gonna dream I guess.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 10:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by DKcustoms:


If you had read the article you would see all the bit _ifs_ mentioned, and all of the reasons why they are ifs, and come to more logical conclusions.

I get it. You want it to be like a Fiero. But the fact is, it is nothing like a Fiero. If you want a new car that's "like a Fiero" then go look at the Alfa 4C or a Lotus Elise/Exige. Beyond that, these threads about the new C8 are a waste of time.

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Report this Post01-10-2015 11:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Because someone really wants the mid-engine C8 to be a Fiero. Dreamers gonna dream I guess.


Very true.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LornesGTSend a Private Message to LornesGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:


Thats the only thing in common between the two cars ........Archies V8 conversion kit and a Corvette motor.


That could be said about every model change of just about every vehilce ever made, even the corvette.

I don't know why some get so uptight about this, it just fun for some.


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Report this Post01-10-2015 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LornesGT:


That could be said about every model change of just about every vehilce ever made, even the corvette.

I don't know why some get so uptight about this, it just fun for some.



C&D had come out with a new article about the new C8 every month or so for the past few months. We don't need a new thread every time one comes out. C&D has their own web site, which you can subscribe to if you want to follow news on the C8 from them.

Pontiac isn't coming back. The Fiero isn't coming back. The Zora isn't a Fiero. If you really want to discuss the Zora, on this site, then the Other Cars is the right place to do that. Putting "Fiero" in the title doesn't make it about Fieros.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SourmugSend a Private Message to SourmugEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:

Why is this always being discussed on this forum? We'll have the same guys arguing over nothing for 3 or 4 pages and wasting space. If you want a Corvette, join a Vette forum. It has nothing to do with the Fiero and the 2 cars are worlds apart.


Take a pill
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Report this Post01-10-2015 06:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsClick Here to Email drattsSend a Private Message to drattsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


C&D had come out with a new article about the new C8 every month or so for the past few months. We don't need a new thread every time one comes out. C&D has their own web site, which you can subscribe to if you want to follow news on the C8 from them.

Pontiac isn't coming back. The Fiero isn't coming back. The Zora isn't a Fiero. If you really want to discuss the Zora, on this site, then the Other Cars is the right place to do that. Putting "Fiero" in the title doesn't make it about Fieros.


I think that any mid engined GM car is kinda about Fieros, a little bit. Since there are only two they do have something in common.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 06:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LornesGTSend a Private Message to LornesGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And since it upset you so much you should not read the related threads. This will never stop so just accept it. I have no idea why you hate it so much, it just a forum.


 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


C&D had come out with a new article about the new C8 every month or so for the past few months. We don't need a new thread every time one comes out. C&D has their own web site, which you can subscribe to if you want to follow news on the C8 from them.

Pontiac isn't coming back. The Fiero isn't coming back. The Zora isn't a Fiero. If you really want to discuss the Zora, on this site, then the Other Cars is the right place to do that. Putting "Fiero" in the title doesn't make it about Fieros.


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Report this Post01-10-2015 08:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Quad RaiderClick Here to Email Quad RaiderSend a Private Message to Quad RaiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Why so grumpy, dobey? If you're not interested in a topic don't click into the thread. I don't read Car & Driver or MotorTrend but I think this is an interesting discussion and am thankful it was posted.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LornesGT:

And since it upset you so much you should not read the related threads. This will never stop so just accept it. I have no idea why you hate it so much, it just a forum.




Because if you read the rules of the forum which no one ever seems to do, there is a reason why they call it General Fiero Chat and Cliff worked his ass off to edit his software to create the "Other Cars" section. The Corvette is the "Other Car". People seem to think it is cute to add a little cliche in their post about the Fiero and it makes it Fiero related. Just like those people who make multiple threads about the new Alfa Romeo......once again, not a Fiero but because they hear mid-engine, they think it's related to the Fiero.


I own a Fiero so now that I mentioned it, can I post pictures of my remodeled kitchen or my Dodge truck on here? Maybe I'll start a build thread on my Dodge Ram suspension upgrades.

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 01-10-2015).]

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Report this Post01-10-2015 09:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Quad RaiderClick Here to Email Quad RaiderSend a Private Message to Quad RaiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Geez. And some people wonder why activity on the forum is down.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 10:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:
People seem to think it is cute to add a little cliche in their post about the Fiero and it makes it Fiero related. Just like those people who make multiple threads about the new Alfa Romeo......once again, not a Fiero but because they hear mid-engine, they think it's related to the Fiero.


This. I also like the Chevette. It would be really cool if GM brought the Chevette back into the lineup. But I don't go posting on a Chevette forum how much like a Chevette the Sonic and Spark are.

The C8 doesn't mean they're bringing back a Corvair either, just because the engine is in the back.

Like I said, the C8 has nothing at all to do with the Fiero.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Why so grumpy, dobey? If you're not interested in a topic don't click into the thread. I don't read Car & Driver or MotorTrend but I think this is an interesting discussion and am thankful it was posted.


Funny, given I actually posted replies on topic for the thread, and your and Lorne's lack of reading comprehension leads you to think I'm somehow "grumpy" because I pointed out the C8 is completely unrelated to the Fiero. If you're not interested in the topic, don't jump in and comment about how "grumpy" or "angry" someone is for stating direct facts in line with the thread, simply because you wish them to not be true.

We'd all love to see Pontiac and the Fiero return to the market, but a $150K supercar from GM isn't going to make that happen.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by dratts:
I think that any mid engined GM car is kinda about Fieros, a little bit. Since there are only two they do have something in common.


Eh, not really. GM has been looking at the possibility of mid-engined Corvettes almost as long as the Corvette has been around. It has nothing to do with the Fiero, and everything to do with Zora. The C8 has more in common with GM's Indy/CART and Daytona race programs than it does with the Fiero.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Quad RaiderClick Here to Email Quad RaiderSend a Private Message to Quad RaiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Funny, given I actually posted replies on topic for the thread, and your and Lorne's lack of reading comprehension leads you to think I'm somehow "grumpy" because I pointed out the C8 is completely unrelated to the Fiero. If you're not interested in the topic, don't jump in and comment about how "grumpy" or "angry" someone is for stating direct facts in line with the thread, simply because you wish them to not be true.

We'd all love to see Pontiac and the Fiero return to the market, but a $150K supercar from GM isn't going to make that happen.


Right, my supposed lack of comprehension is the issue here, not your desire to play forum cop. I'm sorry, officer dobey. What a happy, joyful life you must lead.
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Report this Post01-11-2015 12:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fastblackSend a Private Message to fastblackEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:

.. this is like saying 90% of every Porsches made are like fieros...


Porsche's are rear engined (assuming we're talking 911's), Fiero is mid-engined. Just sayin'

[This message has been edited by fastblack (edited 01-11-2015).]

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Report this Post01-11-2015 01:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LornesGTSend a Private Message to LornesGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's a Fiero frame under the body. So it is written, so it shall be. Later all, I don't need the forum police either. I can always google to get help on my car. Can you comphrend that dobey or did you smoke to many?

[This message has been edited by LornesGT (edited 01-11-2015).]

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Report this Post01-11-2015 08:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This thread didn't bother me. It made an interesting read. I know there are similar previous threads. It isn't as if this detracted anything. The forum isn't so busy that this pushed out something else. Had the thread been posted elsewhere, I wouldn't have seen it. It's up to us to click on it or not. If you don't like it, don't post and bring it back to the top. The most effective way to kill a thread is not to post in it.
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rogergarrison
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Report this Post01-11-2015 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow, more fighting...and i wasnt even involved. Just shows when you have 25,000 members, a lot will be jerks...law of averages.

done.
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Raydar
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Report this Post01-11-2015 11:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
REBODY!

Heck... I wish I had enough money to buy one.
I'd put Fiero badges on it. Just to poke a stick in the eye of the Corvette guys.
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dobey
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Report this Post01-11-2015 11:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:
This thread didn't bother me. It made an interesting read. I know there are similar previous threads. It isn't as if this detracted anything. The forum isn't so busy that this pushed out something else. Had the thread been posted elsewhere, I wouldn't have seen it. It's up to us to click on it or not. If you don't like it, don't post and bring it back to the top. The most effective way to kill a thread is not to post in it.


It might be interesting. But that's not the point. This is exactly what jscott1 was talking about in his other thread where he suggested reducing the number of active threads. If you have active interest in cars other than Fieros, then the Other Cars section is probably something you should check the topics in regularly. The most effective way to kill a forum, is to keep posting off topic stuff in the wrong place, such that forum itself just becomes irrelevant, because it's harder to find the stuff people might actually need to see in a vehicle-specific forum.

While the hypocrisy of the few people who came in here just to comment on how much think someone else hates the thread, rather than to post anything about the actual topic the thread was created about, is slightly bemusing, it doesn't change the facts about the C8 versus the Fiero, and only proves the point that the thread is off topic.

The C8 has absolutely **** all to do with the development or production of the Fiero platform. It's not a sign from the heavens for the return of the Fiero. Nor was the Ecocat; and it was even made when Pontiac was still cranking out cars, and could have been a viable platform for a compact mid-engined car with a small 4 or 6 cylinder engine. It seems that now Pontiac has been shut down for over 5 years, there's even more wishful thinking about a Fiero return, than there ever was previously on the forum. It would certainly be awesome if Pontiac came back with a vengeance and reintroduced the Fiero to the market, and while the enthusiasm for the car is always good, people need to see reality and the facts too. The car isn't coming back. Take that enthusiasm and put it into a 27 year old Fiero, restore it, and make it what you think it should be if a Fiero were to come out today. The C8 is so far above and beyond what the Fiero was, that trying to associate them simply based on the fact that they both have an engine immediately to the rear of the passenger compartment is just nonsense.

The whole if you don't like it, then don't read it and don't post on it commentary you and a few others bring to threads is just complete :BS:. If that attitude were shared by everyone throughout history, we'd be nowhere near as advanced a society as we are today, and there never would have been any Fieros. There wouldn't be a United States. The pilgrams would have never left the kingdom. But that's not how advancement works. Advancement and learning happen through dissenting viewpoints. The original post for this thread was literally a complete waste. It said here is an article from a magazine on there web site, go read it and decide for yourself. It made no suggestions about how a C8 is related to a Fiero, or even attempt to discuss anything interesting about the car. In fact, the only interesting discussion that has so far occurred in this thread, about the C8-Fiero connection, has been in reply to my post that it has nothing at all to do with the Fiero. Only then did the OP reply and start to point out what he thinks the connections are, and I then replied stating why that is unlikely to be.

But yeah, you're all right. If you don't like it, then don't post. So then, stop posting simply because you don't like my posts.
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Raydar
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Report this Post01-11-2015 12:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
...If that attitude were shared by everyone throughout history, we'd be nowhere near as advanced a society as we are today, and there never would have been any Fieros. There wouldn't be a United States. The pilgrams would have never left the kingdom.
...


"...AND THE ROCKETS' RED GLAAAAAAARE..."

Jeez.

If you're going to go there... The truth of the matter is that many of our ancestors are here because they refused to get along, and play nicely.

Sure this thread is off topic, in some peoples' opinion, but I've seen worse. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't do a lot of harm. It's not like the section is rife with O/T threads. I'm sure Cliff will close/move it if he deems it worth the trouble.

Meanwhile, we keep bumping it. Just let it die, if it chaps your azz that badly.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-11-2015).]

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This thread has been moved here: Totally O/T.
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