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LS4 Wiring - VSS by jschatte
Started on: 11-27-2014 11:53 AM
Replies: 23 (1407 views)
Last post by: jschatte on 08-10-2018 11:30 AM
jschatte
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Report this Post11-27-2014 11:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey guys,

I am doing a LS4 swap in my delorean and am needing some guidance, in terms of wiring.

I am using a 2006 LS4 with an E40 ECM (Gen 3).

I want to retain the DoD and cruise control.

I will be flashing my ecm with the 2005 bin. This enables dedicated pins for the cruise control on the ECM and dedicated tach output. These were moved to the data feed in 2006+ . So From there I can just hook up a universal cruise switch and my stop lamp input.

Where I run into trouble is both DoD and Cruise rely on a VSS, which I do not have. The engine is being mated to a 70s 5-speed Renault gearbox (UN1) so I do not have a VSS and ISS as most transmissions do. I can certainly fabricate an external VSS but I would need to determine which sensor and tooth count for the reluctor to use. I am not sure if the absence of an ISS would be ok. Furthermore, I see in the schematics that the VSS connects to the TCM (2 wires) then one wire is fed to the ECM. I really do not want to install a TCM, so hopefully there is a way around this. This is where I am looking for guidance.

This is also based on the assumption DoD and cruise requires a VSS. Im 99% sure they do but if they don’t it would save the hassle of this whole predicament.

I have all the wiring diagrams, I can post them up to refer to the exact pins and schematics I am referring to.

Also, for the tach I am assuming I can just hook it up to my tach (V6 was in the car originally) and adjust the pulses to suit with HPTuners. Please correct me here if I am wrong.

Thanks,
Josh
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Fiervette
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Report this Post11-28-2014 01:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FiervetteClick Here to Email FiervetteSend a Private Message to FiervetteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Josh -

I think you are doing a really cool swap. I have an LS1 swapped Fiero and I love it. Deloreans are awsome cars so I applaud what you are doing.

So, I see you changed your mind about megasquirt and decided to go with the factory PCM. I agree that is a much better choice.

I hope reflashing will enable the cruise, I can't say for sure if it will work or not.

Have you read this guy's blog - it might help

LS1 Delorean swap

He did an LS1 swap, and there are several differences, but most of it would be applicable.

I was able to get cruise and the tach working on my swap. Forget about DOD, I will explain later

For the cruise, you do need a VSS. ISS is only needed for an auto trans, has no applicability for manual trans. I used the VSS my trans, but you need an aftermarket solution. There are 3 choices.
1. Mount several magnets or a reluctor wheel on your CV joint and hook up a pickup from an ABS system.
2. Buy a inline speedo cable pickup. Several are on the market for GM applications, I don't know how hard it would be to adapt to the Delorean cable.
3. Buy a GPS enabled speed sensor. They really do make them for this type of engine swap. That would be the easiest but most expensive.

It is not critical for any of these to have the correct tooth count. The speedo input can be adjusted with HP tuners. I had to re-flash mine about 5 times to get my speedo to agree with GPS speed, but I did get it quite accurate.

For the tach, yes you can reprogram with HP Tuners to output for 6 cylinder output. You may need a 4k ohm pullup resistor connected to +12V to make it work, as that is what I did.

I don't have a good story for DOD. As far as I know, no one has ever gotten it to work for a manual trans swap. It has been tried without success. In order for it to work, it has to have a BCM and TCM installed and reporting many things such as ISS, gear selection, and brake booster vacuum. You can google DOD inhibit criteria and the list is very long. I would highly recommend that you don't pursue that function as it will likely end in heartache. In fact, I would recommend you disable DOD plus do a non-DOD cam and intake swap before you put the engine in.

On that note, as far as I know, no manufacturer has ever offered DOD (or whatever they call it) in a manual trans car. There must be a reason.

I don't want to discourage you but this is a big job. You will need to design & build a custom bellhousing adapter, custom flywheel, custom intake, custom exhaust, custom starter mount, custom engine mounts, custom cooling pipes, custom transmission mounts (will need to be moved forward), custom shift linkage, custom pilot bearing (Fieros don't need one, but you will), and custom wiring. You will need to upgrade radiator and brakes. You will realize the brake upgrade the first time you take one of your buddies for a ride, and have to stop from triple digit speeds. Not that I would ever do that !

I had V-8 Archie to supply many of the custom parts, but I will had may jobs to do, and much welding. I did take me about 6 months, but it was worth every moment. I really enjoyed doing it and the pride I felt when I got it done can't be described.

I wish you luck.
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Report this Post11-28-2014 01:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiervette:

Josh -

I think you are doing a really cool swap. I have an LS1 swapped Fiero and I love it. Deloreans are awsome cars so I applaud what you are doing.

So, I see you changed your mind about megasquirt and decided to go with the factory PCM. I agree that is a much better choice.

I hope reflashing will enable the cruise, I can't say for sure if it will work or not.

Have you read this guy's blog - it might help

LS1 Delorean swap

He did an LS1 swap, and there are several differences, but most of it would be applicable.

I was able to get cruise and the tach working on my swap. Forget about DOD, I will explain later

For the cruise, you do need a VSS. ISS is only needed for an auto trans, has no applicability for manual trans. I used the VSS my trans, but you need an aftermarket solution. There are 3 choices.
1. Mount several magnets or a reluctor wheel on your CV joint and hook up a pickup from an ABS system.
2. Buy a inline speedo cable pickup. Several are on the market for GM applications, I don't know how hard it would be to adapt to the Delorean cable.
3. Buy a GPS enabled speed sensor. They really do make them for this type of engine swap. That would be the easiest but most expensive.

It is not critical for any of these to have the correct tooth count. The speedo input can be adjusted with HP tuners. I had to re-flash mine about 5 times to get my speedo to agree with GPS speed, but I did get it quite accurate.

For the tach, yes you can reprogram with HP Tuners to output for 6 cylinder output. You may need a 4k ohm pullup resistor connected to +12V to make it work, as that is what I did.

I don't have a good story for DOD. As far as I know, no one has ever gotten it to work for a manual trans swap. It has been tried without success. In order for it to work, it has to have a BCM and TCM installed and reporting many things such as ISS, gear selection, and brake booster vacuum. You can google DOD inhibit criteria and the list is very long. I would highly recommend that you don't pursue that function as it will likely end in heartache. In fact, I would recommend you disable DOD plus do a non-DOD cam and intake swap before you put the engine in.

On that note, as far as I know, no manufacturer has ever offered DOD (or whatever they call it) in a manual trans car. There must be a reason.

I don't want to discourage you but this is a big job. You will need to design & build a custom bellhousing adapter, custom flywheel, custom intake, custom exhaust, custom starter mount, custom engine mounts, custom cooling pipes, custom transmission mounts (will need to be moved forward), custom shift linkage, custom pilot bearing (Fieros don't need one, but you will), and custom wiring. You will need to upgrade radiator and brakes. You will realize the brake upgrade the first time you take one of your buddies for a ride, and have to stop from triple digit speeds. Not that I would ever do that !

I had V-8 Archie to supply many of the custom parts, but I will had may jobs to do, and much welding. I did take me about 6 months, but it was worth every moment. I really enjoyed doing it and the pride I felt when I got it done can't be described.

I wish you luck.


Thanks for the detailed reply sir! Definitely gets me going in the right direction! Fieros and Deloreans are alike in quite a few ways

I was really on the fence about MS, but the end the GM ecm is much more powerful to put it in short. And I am very excited to learn another tuning software; not excited for the price of admission (HPTuners)

I am fairly confident about the cruise, I just xrefed the 2005 gxp ecm to the 2006 impala - same P/N. Should be a straight forward flash. The car will run either way, its just enabling those few pins.

Im glad to see you read up on Nick's blog, I am in close contact with him. He has helped me out ALOT so far through the build. Just for perspective, I bought the engine at the start of Oct, hoping to have a running driving car in the spring.

OK, so the VSS and ISS question is answered. Thank you very much!
That is neat you can input the VSS through a gps module!
I did some brainstorming a few weeks back and it looks like I can mount a reluctor wheel on the drivers side output shaft. I can also use the stock VSS to keep things cheap and simple. Weld up a little mount to get it aimed properly.

OK, tach answered! I stumbled on another thread here using a pullup resistor with a power feed and cap to calibrate things. Seems do-able.

Thanks for your words on DoD. I think this will be a more long term effort, as the car will run fine without it. I closely followed Fieroguru's LS4 swap thread and noticed it was dependent on other systems, thanks for clarifying them all here. Im starting to consider the idea of a 'dummy' TCM. Very clever what he did tricking it to think it was in gear. It also seemed like hope was lost for the e67 ecm (gen4, 2007+) but there still may be hope for the e40. Hopefully I can get ahold of him and see if he has info on what he did with the TCM.
Interesting note on the availability of DoD. Never thought of it only being used on autos, but that is a valid point. Something to consider.

As for the fabrication, I am making some progress. I attached a few pictures to show what I have fabbed up so far! Custom flywheel to come in a month or so, all drawn up, just waiting to be machined!
A brake upgrade will be a must, I believe you. Unvented discs all around has a little to be desired especially when you have over twice the stock power.

Once again, thanks for your help i appreciate you taking time to share your experiences and knowledge!






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Report this Post11-28-2014 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
On the LS4s (both E40 & E67) wire the VSS to the TCM direct and the TCM sends the speed input to the ECM.

On the E67 the dedicated tach output pin on the trailblazer calibration also works with the LS4 calibration. But this didn't work on the VSS side (manual calibrations have the VSS worked direct to the ECM).

So there may be options with the E40 to wire both direct using the input pins from the E40 manual applications, but if you want to keep DoD you have to keep the TCM as there are 3 DoD enable criteria that originate at the TCM and pass through the high speed data lines.

Not sure with the E40, but HPTuners doesn't have access to the needed transmission codes (like the ISS sensor error and the P/N error from hardwiring the TCM to D4). Good news is Ryan Gick can turn them off with tuner cat.

My build thread in the construction zone here has lots of info, but feel free to PM me any questions.

I am slowly working on an E40/LS4/F40 swap and will attempt to get DoD to work on it. If it does work, it will not be as smooth working as the autos loosen the torque converter on engage/disengage. The unknown is how harsh the cycling will be. Will it be like an old a/c compressor cycling or will it be worse.

I forget his screen name, but there is one guy with an LS4/4t65 swap using the E40 ecm and got DoD to work w/o the BCM and I think he mentioned that cruise worked too.
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Report this Post11-28-2014 05:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jims88Click Here to Email Jims88Send a Private Message to Jims88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think it was RONT4.9

In this thread, http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/092262-2.html

 
quote
Originally posted by RONT4.9:


Evidently the older E-40 ECM (05,06) Doesn't need a BPP signal to enable the CC to operate. I was able to wire mine directly to the ECM and it works fine.
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Report this Post11-28-2014 11:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FiervetteClick Here to Email FiervetteSend a Private Message to FiervetteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Josh - I saw your earlier thread obviously but I had no idea that you were this far. I wish we lived closer so I could check it out. Are you documenting this build somewhere? I am really impressed with your workmanship.

I am really intrigued by this, so I want to ask some questions. Are you not going to implement AC? I guess it doesn't get that warm in Canada, but from what I hear about the Delorean, it is a necessity in most climates. What starter solution are you going to use? That seemed to be one of Nick's headaches. What clutch package?

I hate to be pessimistic but I still contend that DOD will never happen for you or Fieroguru. The Thread referred was only to enable cruise. DOD was disabled. It does validate your cruise solution though. I still contend that DOD cannot be implemented in any reasonable manner for a stick shift car. It would require a complete new binary to be developed or a complete transmission emulator to fool the TCM. This emulator would need to mimic line pressures, Fluid temp, PRND input, ISS output, Vss output, shift solenoids, range signals, TCC and all of the other signals and commands for the trans. Since the ISS would mismatch the engine RPM during shifting, the ensuing error code would prevent it from working even then. The BCM would also have to be installed and connected to everything like brake booster, brakes, locks, etc. I just think the engineering to develop this would exceed the effort and cost of the rest of the project. All this would be gain a possible 12% increase in mileage. No figures are available for what it would really be for a manual, as it has never been done. I suspect it would be less than that, or all of the automobile manufacturers would use it. I also did some research on some other LS swap forums, and I could not find a single one that stated they could get DOD/AFM to work, usually because of no BCM. Besides this forum, I have never even seen anyone try on a stick. I am just trying to save you some heartache.

I have some tips for flashing the ECM, some things to note. Remove all torque management. It is in several places and if you leave any of it in, you will have all kinds of problems. It is setup for an auto, and will behave weirdly in a stick. Also, I am not sure with the E40 ECM, but the older PCMs like my 2000 require a "Transmission Segment Swap" when going from auto to manual. If you do not, it will think it is a automatic car that is in Park and will not rev over 3000 rpm. It is something that HP tuners will do for free for customers via email. I learned this lesson the hard way. Again, I am not sure if this will apply to this ECM, but you might want to check it out. I assume you already are planning to disable VATS and all of the DTCs that don't apply.

One other suggestion - if you take my advice and disable DOD, buy a used LS1/LS6 intake manifold and a more powerful non -DOD cam. Since I assume you are using headers, you can gain at least another 100 HP with this setup after tuning. This could all be done from ebay and Jegs or Summit for less than $500 bucks. If you insist on keeping DOD, I wouldn't bother as the limited gains from a much more expensive DOD compatible camshaft are not cost effective.

I really do wish you luck. If you do not have a build thread elsewhere, please post pictures of your progress occasionally. If you do, send a link.

James
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Report this Post11-29-2014 02:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

On the LS4s (both E40 & E67) wire the VSS to the TCM direct and the TCM sends the speed input to the ECM.

On the E67 the dedicated tach output pin on the trailblazer calibration also works with the LS4 calibration. But this didn't work on the VSS side (manual calibrations have the VSS worked direct to the ECM).

So there may be options with the E40 to wire both direct using the input pins from the E40 manual applications, but if you want to keep DoD you have to keep the TCM as there are 3 DoD enable criteria that originate at the TCM and pass through the high speed data lines.

Not sure with the E40, but HPTuners doesn't have access to the needed transmission codes (like the ISS sensor error and the P/N error from hardwiring the TCM to D4). Good news is Ryan Gick can turn them off with tuner cat.

My build thread in the construction zone here has lots of info, but feel free to PM me any questions.

I am slowly working on an E40/LS4/F40 swap and will attempt to get DoD to work on it. If it does work, it will not be as smooth working as the autos loosen the torque converter on engage/disengage. The unknown is how harsh the cycling will be. Will it be like an old a/c compressor cycling or will it be worse.

I forget his screen name, but there is one guy with an LS4/4t65 swap using the E40 ecm and got DoD to work w/o the BCM and I think he mentioned that cruise worked too.


I was hoping you would chime in sir!

Like I said I read your build, as well as your new one with the e40. I was kind of bummed out you put all that time into the DoD with no result. I must say though even without it you are getting some great MPG numbers. Expecially at 350ish hp. Very impressive. Im shooting for the high 20s for my build, I put on alot of highway miles such as yourself.
Thanks for the info on the info on the Tach and VSS.


 
quote
Originally posted by Jims88:

I think it was RONT4.9Evidently the older E-40 ECM (05,06) Doesn't need a BPP signal to enable the CC to operate. I was able to wire mine directly to the ECM and it works fine.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks! That is the thread I came across, nice to know the possibility is there. Looking at the schematics it shouldnt be too bad to hook up so long as i have the VSS hooked up properly.

 
quote
Originally posted by Fiervette:

Josh - I saw your earlier thread obviously but I had no idea that you were this far. I wish we lived closer so I could check it out. Are you documenting this build somewhere? I am really impressed with your workmanship.

I am really intrigued by this, so I want to ask some questions. Are you not going to implement AC? I guess it doesn't get that warm in Canada, but from what I hear about the Delorean, it is a necessity in most climates. What starter solution are you going to use? That seemed to be one of Nick's headaches. What clutch package?

I hate to be pessimistic but I still contend that DOD will never happen for you or Fieroguru. The Thread referred was only to enable cruise. DOD was disabled. It does validate your cruise solution though. I still contend that DOD cannot be implemented in any reasonable manner for a stick shift car. It would require a complete new binary to be developed or a complete transmission emulator to fool the TCM. This emulator would need to mimic line pressures, Fluid temp, PRND input, ISS output, Vss output, shift solenoids, range signals, TCC and all of the other signals and commands for the trans. Since the ISS would mismatch the engine RPM during shifting, the ensuing error code would prevent it from working even then. The BCM would also have to be installed and connected to everything like brake booster, brakes, locks, etc. I just think the engineering to develop this would exceed the effort and cost of the rest of the project. All this would be gain a possible 12% increase in mileage. No figures are available for what it would really be for a manual, as it has never been done. I suspect it would be less than that, or all of the automobile manufacturers would use it. I also did some research on some other LS swap forums, and I could not find a single one that stated they could get DOD/AFM to work, usually because of no BCM. Besides this forum, I have never even seen anyone try on a stick. I am just trying to save you some heartache.

I have some tips for flashing the ECM, some things to note. Remove all torque management. It is in several places and if you leave any of it in, you will have all kinds of problems. It is setup for an auto, and will behave weirdly in a stick. Also, I am not sure with the E40 ECM, but the older PCMs like my 2000 require a "Transmission Segment Swap" when going from auto to manual. If you do not, it will think it is a automatic car that is in Park and will not rev over 3000 rpm. It is something that HP tuners will do for free for customers via email. I learned this lesson the hard way. Again, I am not sure if this will apply to this ECM, but you might want to check it out. I assume you already are planning to disable VATS and all of the DTCs that don't apply.

One other suggestion - if you take my advice and disable DOD, buy a used LS1/LS6 intake manifold and a more powerful non -DOD cam. Since I assume you are using headers, you can gain at least another 100 HP with this setup after tuning. This could all be done from ebay and Jegs or Summit for less than $500 bucks. If you insist on keeping DOD, I wouldn't bother as the limited gains from a much more expensive DOD compatible camshaft are not cost effective.

I really do wish you luck. If you do not have a build thread elsewhere, please post pictures of your progress occasionally. If you do, send a link.

James


Thanks again for the detailed response James.

I keep my build most up to date on Facebook (Josh Schattenkirk). I also have a thread going on dmctalk.org.

It gets pretty warm here in the summer. Granted we do not have the humidity the southern states experience, but A/C is still good to have. The belt routing pictured was just a quick mock up, i just threw on an old idler and alt. The A/C compressor will be mounted sooner or later. I am using a mini sbc starter. Meshes perfect with the 148t s10 ring gear im using on my custom flywheel. I need the mini starter as the motor is "remote" mounted so it does not interfere with the block. The LS4 does not have a starter mounting provision like the LS1 and I am using a smaller ring gear to make things trickier. The starter will bold directly to the bellhousing adapter. Its all designed and drawn, just need to get the parts cut and welded up. I will be using the regular delorean clutch and pressure plate. The transmission has a weird input shaft spline size so there are really no other options without making a custom input shaft. Nick is using this clutch and it is holding fine.

I am debating the whole DoD implimentation. I was off an on about it for the last month and really thinking about it for the last day or so. I think i may prevent future headaches and just scrap it. No TCM then. I just want to hit high 20s on the highway and after seeing Fiero guru's build it seems do-able. I will have to swap out my o/d for a taller ratio gear set but that is just some money and a phonecall away

About the auto transmission stuff - Noted! Thanks for telling me now so im not scratching my head as much when it happens.

I currently have a LS1 intake and I will be installing some hugger headers with some high flow mufflers. not much room for anything else really. So it will indeed flow in and out much nicer.

If I do go the non-DoD route is mechanically eliminating it necessary? For now i would like to stray away from any internal work to the engine. So the cam will stay. Assuming the deactivation solenoids are normally closed and I eliminate the DoD connector from the harness it will run just as any other 5.3l v8? The only thing I would need to do DoD related is install the oil pressure relief valve (#6 in the picture) in my oil pan (had to use a different pan to clear the frame) to work with the high volume oil pump. Hopefully this is a straight forward swap. As for the tray I have my intake on backwards of any LS4 so it installed without any modifications to the tray so it can stay for all that I care.




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Report this Post11-29-2014 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jschatte:
I am debating the whole DoD implimentation. I was off an on about it for the last month and really thinking about it for the last day or so. I think i may prevent future headaches and just scrap it. No TCM then. I just want to hit high 20s on the highway and after seeing Fiero guru's build it seems do-able. I will have to swap out my o/d for a taller ratio gear set but that is just some money and a phonecall away

About the auto transmission stuff - Noted! Thanks for telling me now so im not scratching my head as much when it happens.

I currently have a LS1 intake and I will be installing some hugger headers with some high flow mufflers. not much room for anything else really. So it will indeed flow in and out much nicer.

If I do go the non-DoD route is mechanically eliminating it necessary? For now i would like to stray away from any internal work to the engine. So the cam will stay. Assuming the deactivation solenoids are normally closed and I eliminate the DoD connector from the harness it will run just as any other 5.3l v8? The only thing I would need to do DoD related is install the oil pressure relief valve (#6 in the picture) in my oil pan (had to use a different pan to clear the frame) to work with the high volume oil pump. Hopefully this is a straight forward swap. As for the tray I have my intake on backwards of any LS4 so it installed without any modifications to the tray so it can stay for all that I care.


Before you scrap the TCM, you need to figure out if you can wire up the VSS direct to the ECM or swap front timing covers and run the LS2 E40 Manual calibration. The LS4 is essentially a small displacement LS2 with restrictive intake and exhaust.

If you follow my thread and wire up the TCM the way I did it, and have Darth Fiero turn off the auto transmission codes, then you don't have any of the issues mentioned above with a manual transmission.

Unless you want to spend more $$$ up front and do more work to remove DoD, you can just swap in a DoD compatible camshaft/pushrods/valve springs and call it a day. The lifters will never cycle, so they can last a long time. My swap has about 130 hp more than a stock LS4 with a DoD compatible camshaft and I spin it to 7K rpm quite often. You can get more power (or better drivability at the same power level) with a non-DoD camshaft, but don't think you have to eliminate DoD to get more than 100 hp from stock.

If you keep DoD you will need the oil bypass valve installed in your new pan. Never looked to see if it was press fitted into the pan or if is bolts in, but it will need to be there.
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Report this Post11-29-2014 03:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Before you scrap the TCM, you need to figure out if you can wire up the VSS direct to the ECM or swap front timing covers and run the LS2 E40 Manual calibration. The LS4 is essentially a small displacement LS2 with restrictive intake and exhaust.

If you follow my thread and wire up the TCM the way I did it, and have Darth Fiero turn off the auto transmission codes, then you don't have any of the issues mentioned above with a manual transmission.

Unless you want to spend more $$$ up front and do more work to remove DoD, you can just swap in a DoD compatible camshaft/pushrods/valve springs and call it a day. The lifters will never cycle, so they can last a long time. My swap has about 130 hp more than a stock LS4 with a DoD compatible camshaft and I spin it to 7K rpm quite often. You can get more power (or better drivability at the same power level) with a non-DoD camshaft, but don't think you have to eliminate DoD to get more than 100 hp from stock.

If you keep DoD you will need the oil bypass valve installed in your new pan. Never looked to see if it was press fitted into the pan or if is bolts in, but it will need to be there.


This was a concern of mine. It looks like the LS2 takes a VSS high and low signal on C3-45 and C3-44 respectively. The LS4 takes a buffered signal on C3-45. I have seen a setup where someone just connected the vss high to C3-45 and grounded the low externally but no report back on if that worked. I am assuming the LS2 has a slightly different rank sensor then if your recommending a timing cover swap. I dont want to bother swapping the timing cover. It may be looking like I will have to stick with the TCM either way... hmm. In which case I may just try and get the DoD working. I am kind of willy nilly on this decision so Im getting pulled back and fourth! haha.

I did see the portions in your thread where you were wiring up the TCM, but I didnt see any specific schematics. Could you point me to those or pm them to me? Thank you very much sir.

To make my intentions clear... I do not want to mechanically remove any DoD hardware. Regardless of the direction I go. I dont want to change out the camshaft, lifters, or pushrods. It seems like everyone is assuming I want to upgrade the cam? I am fine with the power the engine is putting out as is! Increasing the horsepower with an intake and exhaust will just be a side effect of switching to an intake and exhaust that better fits my application. I am glad to hear the DoD lifters and camshaft arent as bad as everyone thinks they are.

As for the bypass I need to take the LS1 oil pan off the engine and compare with the LS4. It says the valve is a serviceable part in the tech documents so it can be pulled out and even rebuilt. So it shouldnt be an issue removing it.

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Report this Post11-29-2014 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Page 13 of my build thread lists all the DoD inhibitors as well as shows all the pinout details for the E67, T42 TCM, 203 & 500 connectors.

Any place where I mention a bulb, I ended up using a 1k resistor and eventually wired up the pressure solenoid.
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Report this Post11-29-2014 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jschatte:
As for the bypass I need to take the LS1 oil pan off the engine and compare with the LS4. It says the valve is a serviceable part in the tech documents so it can be pulled out and even rebuilt. So it shouldnt be an issue removing it.


You shouldn't even need to remove the pan. You just pull the bypass cover off, that is right above the oil filter. The LS1 cover has an oil temp sensor boss as well. Not sure if you want or need that. The LS4 cover has no sensor boss.
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Report this Post11-29-2014 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Noted. Thanks guys.

Looks like i would have to work in a brake booster vac signal sensor as well.
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Report this Post11-29-2014 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by jschatte:

Noted. Thanks guys.

Looks like i would have to work in a brake booster vac signal sensor as well.


Yes. You can use a step drill on your stock booster likely, and use the sensor for the Grand Prix GXP.
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Report this Post06-30-2018 12:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey guys,

Long time no see! The car has been done for several years now, lots of miles on it. Everything works great. So much so that im back to visiting the small stuff again.

I had the chance to have my car on RCR, too! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7f9eZCQc4M

Back to the VSS issue.
I recently purchased and installed a Speedbox, a motorized gps speedometer to run the stock mechanical speedomenter. Works great. https://www.speedhut.com/Speedbox.html

It has a VSS output, so I figured I would tap it into the ECU. The idea is I could log with speed, and enable the cruise control. E40 ECU, flashed as a 2005 grand prix.
The VSS ouput gives off 4000ppm, one wire connection. I tried hooking it straight up, and then with a 12v pullup, both with no result to pin c3-45.

I am a bit defeated at this point, there was some talk that this may work. It just simply is not giving off the right signal. In the stock configuration the VSS feeds into the TCM (2 wire) then it is fed into the ECM with 1 wire to C3-45. This must be a data stream of some sort. I am considering wiring in a tcm for this purpose, however it does not seem like a sure thing either.

Any input would be appreciated.
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Report this Post06-30-2018 11:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jschatte:
I am a bit defeated at this point, there was some talk that this may work. It just simply is not giving off the right signal. In the stock configuration the VSS feeds into the TCM (2 wire) then it is fed into the ECM with 1 wire to C3-45. This must be a data stream of some sort. I am considering wiring in a tcm for this purpose, however it does not seem like a sure thing either.

Any input would be appreciated.


Have you been able to scan the ecm to see if the speed is registering and the issue is within the cruise logic? That would be the first place to look. If there is no speed to registered in the ecm, then the signal is wrong or the pin you are trying to feed it into the ecm is non-operational. With the stock LS4 calibration (program, not the actual ECM hardware), there is no dedicated VSS input to the ecm. The VSS goes through the BCM.

If you have a speed registering in the ecm, then which cruise stalk are you trying to use. The later model LS stuff switched the NO/NC inputs for the cruise so the older stalks won't work without some changes.

If you don't have the speed registering there are 3 potential solutions.

Wire up the TCM and the data lines from the TCM to the ECM. This is how I got VSS input for my LS4/F40 (manual 6 speed) swap). You will get lots of error codes and will need to have someone with OBD11 Tuner Cat disable the codes (HP Tuners can't do this, not sure about EFI Live). All you should need for the VSS to work is power, ground, VSS and data lines. The TCM has to have the same VIN as the ECM so unless you still have the stock one, you will need to send them both to get "matched".

Have your E40 ecm programmed as a GTO with a 6 speed. This would require swapping the timing cover to change the camshaft sensor location, but the GTO calibration has a dedicated VSS input terminal active on the E40.

Go low-tech and use a mid 90s GM cruise module and use the cable to pull down your drive by wire throttle pedal. This is how I got cruise working on my LS4/F40 with the E67 ecm. I welded a bracket to the top of the pedal arm and fabbed up a fixed placement cable bracket. I was able to use the mid 80s GM cruise stalk and the cruise module only needed power, ground, VSS and then wiring for the cruise stalk and pedal switches.... ecm has no clue cruise is even work, it just think I am still pushing the pedal, when the cruise module is maintaining pedal position.
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Report this Post07-01-2018 11:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Have you been able to scan the ecm to see if the speed is registering and the issue is within the cruise logic? That would be the first place to look. If there is no speed to registered in the ecm, then the signal is wrong or the pin you are trying to feed it into the ecm is non-operational. With the stock LS4 calibration (program, not the actual ECM hardware), there is no dedicated VSS input to the ecm. The VSS goes through the BCM.

If you have a speed registering in the ecm, then which cruise stalk are you trying to use. The later model LS stuff switched the NO/NC inputs for the cruise so the older stalks won't work without some changes.

If you don't have the speed registering there are 3 potential solutions.

Wire up the TCM and the data lines from the TCM to the ECM. This is how I got VSS input for my LS4/F40 (manual 6 speed) swap). You will get lots of error codes and will need to have someone with OBD11 Tuner Cat disable the codes (HP Tuners can't do this, not sure about EFI Live). All you should need for the VSS to work is power, ground, VSS and data lines. The TCM has to have the same VIN as the ECM so unless you still have the stock one, you will need to send them both to get "matched".

Have your E40 ecm programmed as a GTO with a 6 speed. This would require swapping the timing cover to change the camshaft sensor location, but the GTO calibration has a dedicated VSS input terminal active on the E40.

Go low-tech and use a mid 90s GM cruise module and use the cable to pull down your drive by wire throttle pedal. This is how I got cruise working on my LS4/F40 with the E67 ecm. I welded a bracket to the top of the pedal arm and fabbed up a fixed placement cable bracket. I was able to use the mid 80s GM cruise stalk and the cruise module only needed power, ground, VSS and then wiring for the cruise stalk and pedal switches.... ecm has no clue cruise is even work, it just think I am still pushing the pedal, when the cruise module is maintaining pedal position.


Thank you for the reply! I was hoping you would chime in.

I have confirmed through VCM scanner that there is no speed registering to the computer.I changed some of the settings in the tune to better sync with the 4000ppm output i was working with (stock is higher) but with no result.

It is my understanding that the 2005 grand prix still uses the NC/NO logic for cruise, that is why I flashed my ecu to this vehicle. It also does not have "The ECM has not detected a brake pedal activation from the body control module (BCM)." as a cruise inhibitor, like the 2006 e40 ecu has. To me this implies you need the BCM to use cruise.

Thank you for listing out the solutions. I have purchased access to AC Delco TDS for the weekend so I will scour through wiring diagrams to support the first two alternatives. However, since i do not have a TCM whatsoever option one sounds like a rather difficult option.
I am employing the third option right now, but the drive by wire pedal springs are very stiff and my aftermarket cruise control unit it having a hard time moving the pedal. It will move it, but maintaining the pedal position is an issue. As an interm fix I will try to lighten up the springs on the pedal.

Flashing the computer as another vehicle interests me. I have heard two vehicles now to flash to; a GTO and a TBSS. I will review both the schematics but you are more of a reliable source so GTO sounds much more promising.
As for the timing cover, perhaps there is a work around here. I found this on the MSD forums, it suggests installing a pullup resistor to correct the LS4 cam signal. Mind you this is to interface to the MSD ignition box, not a stock gm ECM and you are not changing the fact it is 180deg out. Thoughts? The resistor solution was provided by a MSD tech (I think)
https://forums.msdperforman...83-MSD-6LS-on-GM-LS4
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Report this Post07-02-2018 08:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The TBSS calibration doesn't have a dedicated VSS input either as it was auto only just like the LS4. There was a thread many years ago on LS1 Tech where a guy installed a 6 speed and had lots of issues getting the VSS signal to the ecm. You will want to use a factory manual transmission calibration that used the same ecm (E40 24X or E67 58X) as none of those would have the TCM, so the VSS is connected directly to the ECM.

Gary is using the E40 GTO calibration for his LS4/F40 swap:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/098303.html

Supposedly the crank sensor position shouldn't matter as the LS calibrations are supposed to auto adjust the firing pattern 180 degrees if it doesn't start, but I think you will get the best results keeping a matched set of factory hardware.

Here are some pictures of my modified pedal. Note I placed the cable connection about 5 or so inches from the pedal pivot to help over come the spring pressure and to better match the range of motion for the AR cruise module. I mounted my cruise module in the center console area so the cable is connected to an extended arm welded to the pedal so it could pull from the top side. If the cruise module is mounted up front, you could pull from the bottom of the pedal as well, but I didn't want to put a hole in the floor board for the cable.


Here is the final geometry of the cable bracket - for more shoe room on the pedal)

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-02-2018).]

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Report this Post07-02-2018 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The TBSS calibration doesn't have a dedicated VSS input either as it was auto only just like the LS4. There was a thread many years ago on LS1 Tech where a guy installed a 6 speed and had lots of issues getting the VSS signal to the ecm. You will want to use a factory manual transmission calibration that used the same ecm (E40 24X or E67 58X) as none of those would have the TCM, so the VSS is connected directly to the ECM.

Gary is using the E40 GTO calibration for his LS4/F40 swap:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/098303.html

Supposedly the crank sensor position shouldn't matter as the LS calibrations are supposed to auto adjust the firing pattern 180 degrees if it doesn't start, but I think you will get the best results keeping a matched set of factory hardware.

Here are some pictures of my modified pedal. Note I placed the cable connection about 5 or so inches from the pedal pivot to help over come the spring pressure and to better match the range of motion for the AR cruise module. I mounted my cruise module in the center console area so the cable is connected to an extended arm welded to the pedal so it could pull from the top side. If the cruise module is mounted up front, you could pull from the bottom of the pedal as well, but I didn't want to put a hole in the floor board for the cable.


Here is the final geometry of the cable bracket - for more shoe room on the pedal)




After scouring through wiring diagrams I found just that, the TBSS does not have a dedicated VSS input.

I keep pulling up threads from that guy you mention, sounds like he tried many different calibrations and wiring work arounds without success. If we are thinking of the same person his username is "04colyZQ8"

Thank you for the link, what a great swap he did! I see he also swapped timing covers. I only saw information of him using a e38 as the LS4 was 2007+, I must be missing something if you say it was an e40. GTOs never made it past 2006, so no e38 ecu calibration exists.

Returning to my research i found:
TBSS ecu has NO/NC cruise control inputs, but NO VSS INPUT.
GTO ecu has NO NO/NC CRUISE CONTROL INPUTS, but it does have a vss input.
SSR has both NO/NC cruise control inputs, and a vss input.

I did some googing and it appears the SSR calibration has been used with LS2 swaps from gtos and vettes to retain the cruise with success. It seems like the 2005/2006 (all wiring identical for both years) SSR with the T56 is the ticket.

Regardless of the calibration I choose some hardware will need to be changed:
-Minor Repinning of the ECU relating to the accelerator pedal and TB, as well as the DLC
-Install and wire a second o2 sensor, I am only using one in bank one. This is a big benifit, I hate only running an o2 sensor on one bank only.
-Switch to a 6 with TB as I have an 8 wire one. I know you can wire a 6 wire to and 8 wire ecu, but not sure if you can go the other way around. I think I have one laying around anyway.
-Of course the VSS, cruise control switch, and brake light switch (12v when brake pedal not depressed, 0V when brake is depressed I believe)

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I am learning!

I do agree that swapping the timing cover is ideal. However the sensor location interferes with my belt routing and It is quite a bit of work to swap it out (pulling balance, removing water pump housing, bleeding coolant system is a PITA with the delorean). So i will try alternative methods. I have a friend that is running the MSD box on a non timing cover swapped LS4 and it certainly does run, but he has occasional hard starts.

Your medal modifications look great! Like it was from the factory that way. I wanted to do similar, however the pedal box does not allow me to go upwards like that. I had it out this winter, I should have thought of this then and cut a portion out of it. I am currently running an automatic pedal box that I added a clutch pedal to, as I did not like the throw of the stock clutch pedal. My cruise setup goes downwards and has much less leverage than yours does.


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Report this Post07-02-2018 02:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, I must have got my wires crossed on the GTO comment. E38 would be Vette based and 58X.

2005 Vette, SSR, TBSS, and GTO all used E40 (and Envoy and Rainier - but those were auto only).

Sounds like the SSR with LS2/6 speed is the hot ticket!
You might need to switch pedals to match the calibration... they are quite finicky.
No need to add a 2nd O2 - you can change the cylinder allocation for each O2 in the tune.
The difference between 6 and 8 wire TBs is just an extra ground and 5V signal and pin locations for the other wires. If you only have 6 wires, just add a jumper on the ground and 5V signal wires to the 2nd set of pins.
The brake switch should be 12V as the default state with 0 V once the brake pedal is pushed.


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Report this Post07-02-2018 07:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Yeah, I must have got my wires crossed on the GTO comment. E38 would be Vette based and 58X.

2005 Vette, SSR, TBSS, and GTO all used E40 (and Envoy and Rainier - but those were auto only).

Sounds like the SSR with LS2/6 speed is the hot ticket!
You might need to switch pedals to match the calibration... they are quite finicky.
No need to add a 2nd O2 - you can change the cylinder allocation for each O2 in the tune.
The difference between 6 and 8 wire TBs is just an extra ground and 5V signal and pin locations for the other wires. If you only have 6 wires, just add a jumper on the ground and 5V signal wires to the 2nd set of pins.
The brake switch should be 12V as the default state with 0 V once the brake pedal is pushed.



Ok, perfect. We are on the same page now.

That was a good tip to look for MT vehicles, get rid of all the complications of automatic transmissions. Mind you the T56 still have quite a few electrical tie ins.

I have had very good luck with pedals with my current setup. The pictured pedal is from a V6 Impala/Grand Prix. I grab one every time I go to the JY as i have hacked up a couple. Just for the hell of it I have tested Cobalt and G6 pedals, they work perfect.

I would like to add a second o2 sensor anyway, this is no big issue. Some extra security to keep oth banks in sync.

Ah, good point with the jumping of pins. That should work great. I also have a 6 pin LS4 TB, but I think it is slightly different than the LS2 6 pin. The circuit numbers are different on 2 of the wires. The other 4 are the same. I will experiment.

So 12V activated and 0V is just the absence of power? not ground?

The last question is if my 4000ppm output from my GPS unit can be used as a VSS source. But I dont think any of us know that answer at this point. I will report back when I get around to this.
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Report this Post07-03-2018 04:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jschatte:

So 12V activated and 0V is just the absence of power? not ground?

The last question is if my 4000ppm output from my GPS unit can be used as a VSS source. But I dont think any of us know that answer at this point. I will report back when I get around to this.


It should be 12V with the brake released. No volts with the brake pressed. I would use a relay and try it with a ground when the brake is pressed. If that doesn't work, remove the wire and leave it open.
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Report this Post07-10-2018 10:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think the brake pedal functionality will be a small hurdle in the whole scheme of things. I am hopeful.

Another LS4-delorean swap I am involved with, we did the 5K ohm resistor "fix" I mentioned above. His car no longer backfires occasionally when starting. He is running the LS4 timing cover still, with a Carb MSD box. This tells me that swapping timing covers is not required, all you need is a resistor. Very excited about this.
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Report this Post08-07-2018 10:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just updating the thread.

I went for it and changed the calibration from a 2005 grand prix to a 2006 SSR.
Compared tunes and made the changes.
Compared the wiring diagrams and swapped all the pins.
Added in an additional O2 Sensor and wired up the VSS.
To be honest it has been a pain in the ass and im not out of the woods yet!
I was able to make the 8 pin TB work with the 6 pin output, I just bridged some connections.
I swapped the timing covers over, I tried my resistor trick and it did not work. both the LS4 and LS2/3 sensors have a 5kohm pullup, so I dont know what that guy on the MSD forums was on about with the LS4 not having a pullup and losing sync.
It appears the grand prix accelerator pedal does not work, all the circuit numbers are the same but I cannot get it to register in VCM scanner. I am hunting down a trailblazer pedal right now.

Once I get the correct pedal I will take it for a drive and see how the cruise works. It is tied into my GPS speedometer driver right now. I have suspicions this signal will be too weak, and I will have to switch to a toothed wheel on the axle.
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Report this Post08-10-2018 11:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jschatteClick Here to Email jschatteSend a Private Message to jschatteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, I have had success. I posted this on LS1tech as I got some very useful information there, here is what I ended up doing overall:

Hardware changes:
-Re-flashed ECM from LS4 calibration to 2006 SSR Calibration and copy over my LS4 tune.
-Re-pined ECM. I had to shuffle around the pins for the pedal and throttle body, Class 2 data, add an o2 sensor (the LS4 only has 1 bank), and of course add the cruise wiring.
-Added a VSS. Installed in Pins C44 and C45, polarity does not matter. I used a VSS from a S10 as it had threads and a 30tooth reluctor ring on the driveshaft. In HPTuners I set the tooth count to 30, ratio to 1:1 (sensor on wheel hub) and set my revs per mile based on my tire size.
-Changed the timing cover. The LS4 has a unique timing cover that is 180deg off from the LS2/LS3 timing cover. WIthout changing it the car would only fire half the time. Removed the LS4 timing cover and installed a LS2/LS3 timing cover.
-Swapped out the accelerator pedal. Even though my LS4 pedal plugged right in and all the circuit numbers lined up perfectly with the SSR, it did not work. I sourced a pedal from a 2005+ Trailblazer/Envoy 4.2L and it worked perfectly. Very common to find in a scrap yard does not need to be a V8 they all used the same pedal right up to the SS.

Cruise Wiring:

C1 43- Clutch Position - I wired this to 12V switched power. No need to wire in a clutch switch, although it is a great idea. You want 0V when the clutch is pressed, 12V when the clutch is at rest. VCM Scanner says that the clutch is engaged when you wire it this way which threw me off, just ignore that.
C1 46- Brake Switch, Hook up to 2 pole brake switch. This leg needs 12V when the brake pedal is at rest, 0V when the brake pedal is at rest.
C1 32- Brake Switch, Hook up to 2 pole brake switch. This leg needs 0V when the brake pedal is at rest, 12V when the brake pedal is at rest. Both these brake pins need to appose each other, cruise will be inhibited if you jump either of them. As me how I know.
C1 17- Cruise Control On Switch Signal, From cruise control switch. This is not momentary, it needs to be 12V the entire time you want the cruise to be on.
C1 27- CC Set/Coast Switch Signal, From the cruise switch, 12V momentary to Set/Coast
C1 33- CC Accel/Resume Switch Signal, From the cruise switch, 12V momentary to Accel/Resume

The cruise switch itself required 3 additional hook ups, 12V switched power, ground, and a tie in the to lighting circuit for illumination.

I had issues getting the cruise to engage initially, but later found it was inhibited by a DTC for the VSS. When I was experimenting with the VSS it had come up and was still lingering. I cleared the code and the cruise started working.

I am very excited to have cruise control and I hope this helps someone in the future. This information applies to LS4s and LS2s. If doing a swap I strongly recommend using a 12596679 ECM with a 2005/2006 SSR calibration. Throw away the GTO, TBSS, LS4, etc calibrations.
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