Why buy a Fiero and not drive it? Not like it's a 250 GTO California where putting 1000 miles on it is going to drop the value by a million dollars.
I would have to disagree with this. There are some people who enjoy the hobby of restoring and preserving things as long as possible. In this case, even cars. Trying to avoid a single rust spot, a single stone chip, any cracks in the trim, etc can only be done if a car is stored. I know several people who do this, trailer their cars to shows, and keep them in climate controlled garages, de-humudifiers, etc. My Fiero has almost 100k miles on it and is no longer stock, so I do drive it sometimes (except in rain or winter), but if I had the space and the time to pick up an ultra low mileage 88, I would likely just enjoy storing, cleaning, trailering and preserving it as a hobby, while driving my other one.
In the end, it is a hobby, and whatever takes our minds off work/stress, etc.. is worthwhile.
The simple fact is back in the 80's there were two factors to the Fiero and low miles.
One the car often was a second and third car that only comes out on weekends. This is one factor that keeps a lot of miles off many 2 seat and limited use cars.
Second was the fact when they stopped production many people foolishly felt the Fiero was going to be worth a lot of money and it was an investment. I saw one foolishly take his kids collage money and buy 3 1988 models with his kids collage money. He got mad at me when I asked him do you realize how many were built? Anyways they sat on them and today many are selling them off as they have learned they are not going to get rich.
The positive effect today is that for a fair price and a little more than what you would pay for an old car in need of a lot of work you can get a nearly new Fiero. I often recommend if someone is wanting to remain stock with the Fiero to wait until they can afford a little more and buy a lower mileage clean Fiero as often it would be cheaper to spend a little more for a clean car vs. taking all that money and doing paint, interior and rebuilding the engine. In the end you may have a nice car but it is till old and high mileage as vs. you could have taken the same amount and owned an original low mileage model for what you would have paid in many cases to restore the other car.
As I see it get them while you still can as they are a bargain in most cases for nearly new cars in the collector market. Once they are gone they are gone.
I have found great examples from $5K-$14K. I just saw an 88 GT with all options sell for $14K and had under 15K miles. Not much else out there you can buy a new car for $14K.
Now the ones for more are just sellers wishful thinking or just trying to get their investment back if they bought it new. Let them sit on them as anything more than $15K for a low mileage high optioned 88 is too much right now unless there is something one off or special like the last one built etc.
Note too there will be a lot of Solstice and Sky's coming out in the future with low miles for the same reasons.
These cars are more now a pleasure car and will not see as much daily use as they age anymore. Collectors insurance also see's to that too.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 09-23-2014).]
I got my 87 Fiero GT with 89k miles on it for $3000.
I couldn't believe it when we found it, and I expected it to have all sorts of issues, but it was kept in a garage and in very good condition. We only had to take care of things that you would expect from a 28 year old car that sat for several years. Hell, even the tires are still good.
Well, for a 26-31 year old car, as long as the odometer is less than 300-400K miles, then the car has "low miles" on it, depending on the year of the car, and given that 15K miles is expected average yearly mileage for a car.
So under 100K miles is very low, and under 50K is extremely low.
Unfortunately, mileage is not equal to quality of care of the vehicle.
Theres the difference between a collector and enthusiast. Collectors only have them because they can and want them. Enthusiasts enjoy their cars by using them. Im an enthusiast. I love driving every car I owned. Most I put 100K-150K on by myself. Id take some like the Ferrari kit on a 300 mile Sunday drive JUST to drive it. I bought a new Shelby Mustang years ago and put over 75K on it before the first year was up. It spent at least 4 hours on the street nearly every day going to work or just cruising to nowhere. People who trailer cars anywhere are not enthusiasts. The exception being something that is extremely rare or iconic...like a Ferrari 250 GTO. A long distance trip like 1000 miles with a car not too capable of it like a 1903 Olds is also acceptable. I put 25K on my SuperBee after a bumper to bumper on frame restoration, in just over one year. Only time I use a trailer for a fun car is to haul it if it breaks.
Will we see the car at Barrett Jackson in 10 years?
It will have a new owner by then. I bought it simply to show it in stock/unmodified class. I found it interesting that it hadn't been shown much. Other than low miles, there really isn't anything special to the car. I did buy it with plans to drive it, and I did get it running and driving under its own power. I agree with Roger, cars are meant to be driven. If the car was only driven a 1,000 miles a year, it would have 27K on it. When GM Fiero Prototypes sell for under $15K, not a lot of hope remains for high resell prices in the future.
I do not understand the logic that must Fiero owners have when it comes to the Fieros value. If the community of Fiero owners say the car they own has no value then it has no value. Value comes from what the owner thinks the item is worth and what someone is willing to pay. When a Fiero owner is trying to sell their car for a higher value everyone jumps all over them. Why not support the owner and the idea that these cars are becoming harder to find in clean stock condition. It will only help those short lived Fiero owners make money down the road and give new life to new Fiero enthusiast.
I don't necessarily agree with the low miles is bad argument. When I came back to the states my Fiero had been in long term storage. We had the fluids all changed and drove it a few miles on 20 year old tires. Now I don't recommend that but we wanted to keep the car stock. On the way from New England down to Florida the car we were driving and was following our moving truck blew the water pump at 5am in a Sunday morning. We rolled the Fiero wit 11k miles off the truck rolled the Jeep up on and drove the Fiero 725 miles glitch free. In fact the AC was still iced cold and she turned 29 mpg. I keep two low mile cars, one to be passed to each of my children for memories of their dad. Climate controlled and rust free.
As for collectors and enthusiast I think Nick Mason and Jay Leno both would disagree with that as they both as they have great collections that they love to hold but they also use many of the cars to enjoy too.
As for value there is personal value and market value. The market value is normally the measure that a car is valued at. They are controlled by supply and demand of a said vehicle. As for personal value you can put what ever you want on it but that does not mean the insurance company is going to give you more if it is stolen or anyone else would agree you have a $100K Fiero just because you think you have one. Generally personal value is what you would take to sell a car you really don't want to sell and you want to make it worth your while.
As for low miles. generally it is 50K and under on newer cars and as they age it may creep up a little but no matter the year 300K miles is a lot of miles no matter how you want to spin it. Generally many cars are used up at this mileage if you live anywhere with much moisture and generally they gone through in most mechanical parts.
As for low miles they always hold a premium to many people as today original cars are treasured greatly. A car is only original once and they are hard to find in good condition anymore. Often performance cars over the years have been used up or restored to levels that they never were when new. Many clubs and organizations treasure the original cars as a measure of restoration as they are the only way to show they really were delivered.
Case in point I took a 81 Camaro to a show for a friend that had under 10K miles and it looked like crap compared to the many other restored cars there. The truth is they all were like the car I was driving because that is how they started out. Owners over the years took them to the next level and today they do not represent original in any way.
But mileage and use of these cars are a taste just as some of the modifications many of us make or colors we pick. What is distasteful to you is appealing to others. It does not make anyone wrong or right it is just different taste and choices.
Either way there are many low mileage under 50K miles out there and they have been protected from harsh weather and make great buys for the value of the Fiero today, You can spend 10K fixing an old car with high miles up or you can save up and just pay one price and get a all original clean car that will be a very good value.
I drove my for 3 years year round and then I got a second car. I started showing my car but I still drive it to all show in several states. I still have just over 40K miles but I still enjoy the car. I just use care not to get caught out in the rain unless it can not be avoided. I also have historic plates and collectors insurance that limits me driving it to work which is fine with me as I have no real reason to drive it there other than our cook out cruise in day or when I had it on display in our retail show room.
The bottom line is it different strokes for different folks. My take is a low mile Fiero is really a good buy as where else can you find a nearly new car for under 10K?
I would be reluctant to buy say a 1984 for 15K because it had say 8 miles on it because you drive the car the value is lost. I would rather just get one with 10K miles for 10K and just drive it for enjoyment.
It also helps that my other daily driver is faster and much more fun to drive. I love my Fiero but the stock engine is just not up to what a modern engine can do and GM Performance Group Chassis tuning.
Jay Leno is way more of an enthusiast than a collector. Technically he does collect cars, but drives all that run. He even builds cars from scratch and drives them. Of course when you have 100 cars, its hard to drive them all very much. I dont recall ever seeing him drive a normal everyday car.
Jay Leno is way more of an enthusiast than a collector. Technically he does collect cars, but drives all that run. He even builds cars from scratch and drives them. Of course when you have 100 cars, its hard to drive them all very much. I dont recall ever seeing him drive a normal everyday car.
He is safely both a collector as he concentrates on specific models and he also is an enthusiast as he drives them too. The same applies to Nick Mason of Pink Floyd as he is considered one of the greatest car collectors in the world and leads the panels on many concourse committees and collector panels around the worlds. But he is not beyond keeping a Later F1 Ferrari in his family room or taking his 38 Million Dollar 250 GTO to the store or even entering It at the Goodwood vintage races.
These are the guys that are the best of both and proof you can be collector and enthusiast. There collections are their enjoyment as well as their investments.
The most normal car that is most often driven by Leno is his Chevy Volt. He loves it and has yet to run a full tank out in several years of ownership.
It might be time for refresher course in economics. What you call personal value and market value are the same thing. It is called equalibruim price. You are correct that equalibruim price is set by supply and demand. In the case of clean stock Fieros the quantitied supplied is low and the quantitied demand is high. This concept is called a shortage. A shortage of an item leads to higher prices but lower quantity demanded. True I can set my price to $100k but to high of a price does not meet the quantitied demanded which is called surplus. So people are setting the values of their cars based off what others are welling to pay aka the equalibruim price.
If we continue to down grade our cars as everyday cars and mock those that try to increase the equalibruim price we will lose future enthusiast and value. It is called a shift in demand to the left.
The price you talk about from insurance companies is the average price of all Fieros sold from the low to the high. This in no way sets the value of these cars because each car is different in condition and originality. My insurance company set my cars value at $13,000 so I guess they must be out of their mind.
True fiero owners are never going to be able to retire from their investment in their cars but to say they have no value is just stupid.
[This message has been edited by Proud88GT (edited 09-24-2014).]
It might be time for refresher course in economics. What you call personal value and market value are the same thing. It is called equalibruim price. You are correct that equalibruim price is set by supply and demand. In the case of clean stock Fieros the quantitied supplied is low and the quantitied demand is high. This concept is called a shortage. A shortage of an item leads to higher prices but lower quantity demanded. True I can set my price to $100k but to high of a price does not meet the quantitied demanded which is called surplus. So people are setting the values of their cars based off what others are welling to pay aka the equalibruim price.
If we continue to down grade our cars as everyday cars and mock those that try to increase the equalibruim price we will lose future enthusiast and value. It is called a shift in demand to the left.
The price you talk about from insurance companies is the average price of all Fieros sold from the low to the high. This in no way sets the value of these cars because each car is different in condition and originality. My insurance company set my cars value at $13,000 so I guess they must be out of their mind.
True fiero owners are never going to be able to retire from their investment in their cars but to say they have no value is just stupid.
It comes down to two things the price that the market will support on its own and the price the private owner sets as his own.
You can personally set any price you like in your heart and you may or may not realize it. On the other had the price the market supports mostly comes down to supply and demand of a vehicle bases on type, condition and desirability. This is your variation principal.
As for your car it could be worth 13K as I just saw an 88 GT go for $14K a couple weeks ago. But also many insurance companies will also set values at the max for many cars. I see this often in collectors insurance. Agreed values are often higher or max price a owner may realize. Mine is insured for a higher price than I may ever see too and that is why if I ever sold it I would not expect the same price.
The bottom line is generally the price you see will be based on what ever someone in the market is willing to pay as an average. There is always going to be some variation as you always will have the guy who gets a bargain or he guy who foolishly pays too much, Because of this there can be swings in value too as market value is not an absolute. We do not see that much in a vehicle priced like a Fiero but we have see it in high end cars that have gone up with demand and dropped with the lack of it like some late model Ferrari's
The bottom line is the true value that one realizes in a car is what ever someone will pay for it and the variations in condition, options and type all pay keys to the value of the car.
In the public arena there are no absolutes and we will see some variations but in the end supply and demand competition drives higher prices not personal opinions.
Originally posted by Proud88GT: The price you talk about from insurance companies is the average price of all Fieros sold from the low to the high. This in no way sets the value of these cars because each car is different in condition and originality. My insurance company set my cars value at $13,000 so I guess they must be out of their mind.
True fiero owners are never going to be able to retire from their investment in their cars but to say they have no value is just stupid.
Sentiment and finance are not the same thing.
Insurance company valuation is irrelevant, as with collector or custom car builds, agreed value insurance is used, and it is set at what it would cost to rebuild the vehicle in its current form, and not what it would sell for at an auction or on craigslist.
Just because you put $50K into a car, and wouldn't take any less than that for it, doesn't mean it will ever sell at that price. A car is only as valuable as what most buyers will pay for it. It's that simple. You may be able to get a little more than that average for it, if you are patient and wait for the right buyer who is desperate to buy it, doesn't know what the correct valuation is, etc… But it doesn't make the cars worth so much, just because they are rare. They have a bad reputation in the US, and are basically unknown by the younger crowd at this point.
On the other hand, if you think encouraging high prices on low mile cars is somehow going to inflate the value of Fieros in general, I have an 85 GT with 61K miles on it, which I'm happy to sell you for $5000.
Value is in the eye of the beholder. My Ferrari kit was insured for an agreed value of $30K. I sold it for $9500. I was happy as was the buyer. So it ultimately was worth $9500.
I see many people put a lot of money in Pro Street cars and even some Muscle cars and never recouped the cost of restoration or build. Generally most cars are not great investment other than a limited few models.
One area I do see much profit is a Street Rod. Many people today can build a Hot Rod with reproduction parts that are not overly expensive. If built with good taste and good documentation you can make a healthy profit on these car. I have many customer that build street rods and take them to events like Hot August Nights and sell them to high rollers who can not even check the oil that like the idea of owning a hot rod. Many of these customers can make a good profit every year with a new build.
Other wise most times it is cheaper to buy a restored car as often most times you can come out with a better buy and not have to restore the car. I have seen for a little higher prices you can get a better car now and not have to spend more to get to that same level.
But unless it is a Ferrari, Shelby or a select Corvette or a highly collectable vintage car most cars are difficult to make money on or make more money than some Wall Street Investments.
The Moral do not spend on or buy a car that you do not like. At least if It is not worth anything or what you spent you can still have a car you like. I see too many people buy cars thinking it will be worth a lot and have no love for the car and lose their shirts to get rid of them.
In no way was I saying insurance anything sets the price of a Fiero. I was replying to Hypers statement that insurance companies will get you low value than equalibruim price. Agreed value is based off of replacement value for that car.
Yes an increase in values for clean low mileage Fieros would be a great thing for all Fiero owners. Without value the Fiero is dead. Just ask those that supply parts for our cars if sales have increased or decrease over the years. Two things can happen, we can continue to say our cars a worth nothing and that all Fieros are the same. Or we can say that original, nice, clean low mileage Fieros are rare and therefore have a higher value. We should also ask a higher price for Fieros that have been restored.
If we continue to say that your cars have no value suppliers will stop making parts, and our cars will see the fate that many cars see complete death.
Decrease values and also a decrease in return in value will decrease the demand to buy our cars. A decrease in buying our cars will decrease the availability of parts for our cars.
Try to find a used 1987 pontiac Grand Am SE for sale.
What is the condition of the 1985 GT? I might be interested.
In no way was I saying insurance anything sets the price of a Fiero. I was replying to Hypers statement that insurance companies will get you low value than equalibruim price. Agreed value is based off of replacement value for that car.
Yes an increase in values for clean low mileage Fieros would be a great thing for all Fiero owners. Without value the Fiero is dead. Just ask those that supply parts for our cars if sales have increased or decrease over the years. Two things can happen, we can continue to say our cars a worth nothing and that all Fieros are the same. Or we can say that original, nice, clean low mileage Fieros are rare and therefore have a higher value. We should also ask a higher price for Fieros that have been restored.
If we continue to say that your cars have no value suppliers will stop making parts, and our cars will see the fate that many cars see complete death.
Decrease values and also a decrease in return in value will decrease the demand to buy our cars. A decrease in buying our cars will decrease the availability of parts for our cars.
Try to find a used 1987 pontiac Grand Am SE for sale.
What is the condition of the 1985 GT? I might be interested.
The Agreed value of collectors insurance is often not even replacement value as often people will insure it for more than they would realize if they sold it. The insurance company will give it just because they will make more money off of higher premiums. They will not go crazy and offer a $100 K for a Fiero but they will go more then what you generally get as most of us cover the car so we can get something better if something should happen.
The only way to really know market value is to see what the real prices paid for a car is. With the Fiero it is a little more difficult at so many cars are in three levels. Poor Good and Excellent condition. The good cars are generally higher miles but restored or partially restored condition that can even vary in the group. Many will have invested as much as a low mileage car cost at some point but they will never see the same value due to the miles.
The fact is each of our cars is pretty much in a general area but based on the details we can negotiate the value up or down a little.
If we have modified cars the better detailed the build also adds to the value as a build with little documentation leave money on the table.
Keeping all this in mind we are generally in a box from $500-15000 dollars. It is a small box as $15K can be just the value of an engine option on some older Corvettes.
Also factor in few people go around documenting sale prices of Fiero's like they do on models like the Vette. People dedicate books to the topic but here we have had some value guides but they are seldom up to date as they come along infrequently.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 09-25-2014).]
Originally posted by hyperv6: You better watch some here will tell you to move this to the mall thread as this has noting to do with low mileage Fiero's
If you are going complain about this to others then lead by example.
You need to let Cliff do more of the worrying here and worry more about yourself.
You do need to worry more about yourself, and less about me. If I wanted to post a thread to sell a car or parts off of it, I would post it in the right place. The post I made in this thread is relevant, and was facetious. I was making a point. Get over yourself, and stop turning threads into personal attacks against me. It is unbecoming.
You do need to worry more about yourself, and less about me. If I wanted to post a thread to sell a car or parts off of it, I would post it in the right place. The post I made in this thread is relevant, and was facetious. I was making a point. Get over yourself, and stop turning threads into personal attacks against me. It is unbecoming.
Stop playing the victim and take your own advice as you fool no one.
I am done here.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 09-27-2014).]
Originally posted by hyperv6: Stop playing the victim and take your own advice as you fool no one.
Yes, please do that.
Hurry, before formulaWA posts more links to low miles Fiero ads in this thread. Surely his several posts also requires your attention so that you may apply some sort of nonsensical reprimand with words on the Internet toward him too.
Hurry, before formulaWA posts more links to low miles Fiero ads in this thread. Surely his several posts also requires your attention so that you may apply some sort of nonsensical reprimand with words on the Internet toward him too.
85 GT with 15,000 miles and T-bars Installed by Ontario Sunroof when it was new? I didn't think cars and concepts had their aftermarket tbar until 86? http://wwwb.autotrader.ca/a...ShowCPO&orup=5_15_31
The 5 speed is more desirable to drive and by. But there condition of the 5 speed can be problematic. Often they can present issues with wear like sifter cables, Clutch mater cylinder failures and just worn out clutches that are not as easy to change as a RWD car.
As for the Automatic they are pretty much lacking problems or dramatic issues but not as fun to drive as a Manual in good condition.
So there is a good and bad to each.
I have a Auto and it shifts hard and I can control the shifts with my foot. It will hold down in gear for a long time. I did have a Lock up converter solenoid go out but that is easy to change.
I do love to drive a proper 5 speed but I have driven some that it is hard to find the gear in as the shifters are so rubbery with wear. It is a problem also on most FWD cars too. You go to put it in first at the light and you hit third. It is not exactly a Corvette Shifter.
Originally posted by hyperv6: I do love to drive a proper 5 speed but I have driven some that it is hard to find the gear in ... You go to put it in first at the light and you hit third. It is not exactly a Corvette Shifter.
I had those issues with the 4 speed stick but not the 5 speed. The 5 speed felt like my 90 Grand am 5 speed I had a while back. I think like most sticks you just have to get the feel of that particular car and pattern. I actually usually prefer stick shift cars even in reliability to autos because auto trannys seem to wear out no matter what maintinence ifs performed or driving habits. With a stick it seems like if I know how to use a clutch right it keeps on truckin. I've only had to work on clutch hydraulics on Fieros that were neglected and sat for years. But thats just my experience.
Originally posted by hyperv6: The 5 speed is more desirable to drive and by.
Currently 90% of vehicles are purchased with Auto trannys with 10% being manual. Just heard that tidbit a few days ago on the news somewhere. Not sure about Fieros being more desirable if they are manuals. I don't desire them more. I kind of like the ease and simplicity of the auto...just wish it had a 4 speed auto instead of the 3 speed.
