You are not the audience for this vehicle though... There are people who have to have latest, no matter what. Most upgrades are "gimicks"... but it is what buyers want... something new, something someone else doesn't have. In the Corvette world.... a mid-engine car would be a standout and buyers will flock to have it. (buyers would be people with the disposable income and an interest in Corvettes).
A mid engine uber Vette that will appeal to well heeled supercar buyers might be a feather in GM's cap. However people with this kind of disposable income can quickly move on to the next greatest thing on the block. Look at the Chryslers recent $15,000 price drop on the Viper. Sales of it, and the Porsche 911 have been badly hurt by the C7 Stingray. A new supercar could do this to the C8 too.
How much profit will GM make from a niche market mid enigine Corvette? What if GM produced a $30k mid engine sports car using the current V6 3.6 DI motor, and a six speed manual, or 6 speed paddle shift automatic. It would surely sell in much larger quantities than the mid engine Vette, and generate more profit as well. I know everyone here would like to see a car like this called a Fiero but the Pontiac brand is part of history now.
How about using a sporty Chevy name from the past? Call it a "Corsa". A car like this mere mortals could afford.............
Originally posted by Rick 88: How much profit will GM make from a niche market mid enigine Corvette? What if GM produced a $30k mid engine sports car using the current V6 3.6 DI motor, and a six speed manual, or 6 speed paddle shift automatic. It would surely sell in much larger quantities than the mid engine Vette, and generate more profit as well. I know everyone here would like to see a car like this called a Fiero but the Pontiac brand is part of history now.
It's too bad the Alfa 4C is under the Fiat Chrysler umbrella. The Lotus Evora is a bit on the pricey side, being almost $80K, and no longer a part of GM, but it's got a nice 3.5L V6 and a 6 speed trans. Would really like to see Lotus bring one of those new Esprit concepts to the market though.
How much profit will GM make from a niche market mid enigine Corvette? What if GM produced a $30k mid engine sports car using the current V6 3.6 DI motor, and a six speed manual, or 6 speed paddle shift automatic. It would surely sell in much larger quantities than the mid engine Vette, and generate more profit as well. I know everyone here would like to see a car like this called a Fiero but the Pontiac brand is part of history now.
I think they would see more profit from a high priced vette as they won't have to sell many to make those profits. Frankly, I don't look to GM for a sports car. GM is a good car to drive around and get things done. As for "sport"... they just don't have the "bones" to create one for the every-day person. They skimp out here and there and end up with something that just isn't worth the money, as the competitors do it better. (The Sky/Sol is an example... manual top requiring you to get out of the car? No storage? Miata did it better)
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 09-16-2014).]
Originally posted by Rick 88: How much profit will GM make from a niche market mid enigine Corvette? What if GM produced a $30k mid engine sports car using the current V6 3.6 DI motor, and a six speed manual, or 6 speed paddle shift automatic. It would surely sell in much larger quantities than the mid engine Vette, and generate more profit as well. I know everyone here would like to see a car like this called a Fiero but the Pontiac brand is part of history now.
Hmmmm. . . . Bring back Pontiac, Chevy produces a mid engine vette with a mega high HP V8 and pontiac builds a new age fiero from the mid engine vette chassis with a high end V6. Pontiac could also bring the trans am and G8 back into production. Ahhh to dream! ------------------
ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
12.3 is faster than a 13.2
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 09-17-2014).]
I think they would see more profit from a high priced vette as they won't have to sell many to make those profits. Frankly, I don't look to GM for a sports car. GM is a good car to drive around and get things done. As for "sport"... they just don't have the "bones" to create one for the every-day person. They skimp out here and there and end up with something that just isn't worth the money, as the competitors do it better. (The Sky/Sol is an example... manual top requiring you to get out of the car? No storage? Miata did it better)
I would think tooling costs for an all new mid engine car would be similar whether its a low volume halo car, or a higher volume affordable car. How many people would purchae a $30k mid engine sports car vs a $100k plus super car? A new C7 is still a stretch for a lot of people, and that car starts at $54,000. I believe GM would make more money bringing out a car to compete with cars in the BRZ/FRS price range. While a new Stingray is in my budget, I would be just as happy with modern mid engine V6 "Fiero" type car. Face it, the Vette's performance is overkill here in the US. There is a saying you can have more fun driving a slow car fast, than a fast car slow. A323 hp. mid engine car the size of the Fiero would be plenty fast, and lots of fun. If not, Caddy has the same engine with twin turbos putting out 420 horsepower. Stuff that in a small mid engine car and see how fast it would go. Sometimes I wonder what the people at the top of GM are thinking..........
I would think tooling costs for an all new mid engine car would be similar whether its a low volume halo car, or a higher volume affordable car. How many people would purchae a $30k mid engine sports car vs a $100k plus super car? A new C7 is still a stretch for a lot of people, and that car starts at $54,000. I believe GM would make more money bringing out a car to compete with cars in the BRZ/FRS price range. While a new Stingray is in my budget, I would be just as happy with modern mid engine V6 "Fiero" type car. Face it, the Vette's performance is overkill here in the US. There is a saying you can have more fun driving a slow car fast, than a fast car slow. A323 hp. mid engine car the size of the Fiero would be plenty fast, and lots of fun. If not, Caddy has the same engine with twin turbos putting out 420 horsepower. Stuff that in a small mid engine car and see how fast it would go. Sometimes I wonder what the people at the top of GM are thinking..........
See the problem is this the cheaper the car is the more you need to sell. A small sports car really should not sell more than 18K units a year to be viable for more than 5 years. If you over sell then the market is saturated in just a couple years and then you are done. This is how the Miata has been kept viable by limiting sales to a small level and many special editions with global sales.
Now on the other hand the more expensive the car the smaller the number sold needs to be and less is expected to make a profit. Odds are the Mid Engine Vette will be not much more material wise to build than the C7 for the most part. But yet at twice the price the profits will be great and the ability to keep it in production and updated often are much greater.
The toughest car to build and sell is any sports with 2 seats under 30K. There is just only so many people who can afford a 3rd car or live with just two seats as a daily car. The car may be cheap but you have the expense of other cars to live your daily life.
The BRZ/FRS range would have more appeal with a small back seat but even their sales are far from stellar and they are already getting upgrades in hopes of increasing sales. Coupe are a tough sale anymore as even younger people want 4 doors for their friends. GM still may do a sub Alpha RWD coupe but I am getting a feeling it is still a slim chance. With the Toyota and Subaru sales tepid it is hard to make a business case here but with Cadillac going all RWD there will be a smaller RWD Caddy and we may get a Chevy bases on it?
For a small sport car a BMW M4 Fighter is the best bet with a V6 and or turbo 4. It would be high enough price to permit he low volume but low enough to sell under the Vette. It would not be the uber sports car but a good GT touring roadster. Buick and even Cadillac would be a good fit here.
As for power the Corvette has always been about power. Over kill or not the numbers sell the car. Also the key is when making big numbers getting the power to the ground is becoming more important. The Hellcat has big numbers but how much of that power is really reaching the ground at launch? The computer dials things way back to get the car to launch. That is why GM is working hard on the new Vette to put the power to the ground. It will not be long till these cars will be nearling 2 second 0-60 times as 3 seconds are now common.
But the real trick is to keep this kind of performance and move into the new era we are just on the cusp of. To be able to do these numbers in 2025 and on will take more than just a Chevy V8 with cylinder deactivation., This technology will not be cheap at first and a car like a Zora can take the hit and cover the development cost and then trickle it down to the Sting Ray or a cheaper version of the Zora.
No need to wonder what the GM people are thinking as they are thinking and working on and towards things you have not even considered yet. This CAFE thing has them all scared and that is why we have all these new and odd hybrid systems that every major sports car mfg is working on.
The repair cost and purchase cost will climb but we will still have some neat cars that will do some amazing things.
As for price the Vette while not cheap is not priced bad. Keep in mind we are now in the day were a Malibu is $35K and Buick GS Regal stickers for $42K and a Camaro SS can be easily in the mid $45K range. The average price of all cars is now $35K with most crew cab half tons nearing $50K. None of these are cheap and it will only get worse as they have to resort t more exotic materials and technology.
I saw this one in the GM Heritage center (not my pic, but I have one somewhere on one of these hard drives)
CERV IV DOHC V8, twin turbo, AWD, All wheel steering, 6 speed... the list goes on... Probably the closest GM has ever come to a rear mid engine 'vette/
Originally posted by ericjon262: CERV IV DOHC V8, twin turbo, AWD, All wheel steering, 6 speed... the list goes on... Probably the closest GM has ever come to a rear mid engine 'vette/
Want to be an Oreo? I am willing to go double stuff too. LOL!
AN AUTOEXTREMIST EXCLUSIVE: The Mid-Engined Corvette is not only back on the front burner - it looks to be a certainty. Autoextremist.com
Detroit. It was already supposed to be a done deal that the seventh generation of the Corvette would arrive in its current, front-engined, rear-wheel-drive configuration - albeit slightly smaller, lighter and with two engine choices. There was serious talk of an extremely limited production mid-engined "super" Corvette (fewer than 500 units), which would be built as an adjunct program to the traditional car, but that had not been decided. That's the way we reported it, and that was the assumption by many in the business as to how it was going to go down - until now. But after my conversations late last week with executives at the top of the company (who shall remain nameless for obvious reasons), I can tell you that the "idea" of a mid-engined Corvette has not only progressed far beyond the initial planning stages, the engineering on the car is well underway.
What brought on this monumental philosophical shift? Read on...
1. Cost. Up until this point, the argument that the Corvette's fundamental high-performance-for-the-money equation - one that has been a hallmark of the car since Zora Arkus-Duntov took over the program in the mid-50s - would be compromised with a mid-engined car has held sway over every future Corvette product discussion/decision. That's no longer the case, apparently. The two key stumbling blocks for a mid-engined Corvette that have always put a damper on previous discussions were the sophisticated, complex and highly expensive transaxle required, and the extremely difficult cooling challenges. The transaxle in particular has a heavy cost-per-piece price that cannot be subjected to shortcuts due to the engineering requirements necessary to accommodate the high horsepower output of a proper Corvette.
GM has found a way to solve these issues while still maintaining the Corvette's fundamental value proposition and while still delivering the kind of high performance expected of a car that wears the famed Corvette name. I have it on impeccable authority that as a result of the intensive engineering push in the last five weeks, the new car will have a target base price that's very close to a loaded Corvette convertible of today, a number that will keep the future mid-engined Corvette well within reach of its core buyers at current volume levels. This would also obviously allow the Corvette to remain true to its raison d'etre - and continue to outperform cars costing thousands upon thousands more.
Judging by the digital images I have seen, the new mid-engined Corvette is sensational looking, which, given GM Design's roll of late, certainly shouldn't be a surprise. Futuristic, purposeful and bristling with exquisite "signature" Corvette design elements - with no "blades" and no bull**** gimmicks - the new Corvette is everything the Corvette faithful could hope for. But an interesting sidebar? .
2. The Technological Imperative. There has always been a passionate group of True Believers within General Motors, Chevrolet and GM Racing that wanted to push the Corvette envelope further and aggressively present and promote the sports car as a technological showcase for the entire corporation. This group has always believed that GM has squandered the success of the Corvette - not only failing to use the power of the Corvette brand in corporate image advertising but failing to let the car's significant achievements in racing in recent years speak forcefully on behalf of the corporation in terms of technical ability. This is a belief I share, by the way, because in an era when GM - and the rest of Detroit - is literally and figuratively on the ropes and has become the favorite punching bag of the anti-car, anti-Detroit "intelligentsia" (and I use that term derisively) in the media and in Washington, here is a car that not only humbles cars costing thousands more on the street, it regularly competes and wins against the best that the competition has to offer on racetracks around the world. And its success goes largely unnoticed and unappreciated both within and outside the corporation.
The mid-engined configuration will not only propel the Corvette to the next level in terms of performance - giving cars such as the new Audi A8 and any future Porsche 911 fits, by the way (not to mention making Ferrari and Lamborghini very uncomfortable) - it will finally be able to assume the role as a global technological showcase for the corporation, something that it couldn't quite accomplish as long as it was hamstrung with its traditional front-engined configuration, even though the current Z06 already humbles some of the world's most expensive exotic sports cars.
Rick Wagoner got up in front of the media at the L.A. Auto Show last November and touted that GM was going to become a technological leader. But being a technological leader is about much more than producing plug-in electric cars - it's about demonstrating passion for the product and in your products - and the willingness to put your technological stake in the ground on all fronts. A mid-engined Corvette will help deliver Wagoner's positioning in spades.
3. The Competitive Imperative. Right now, GM's Corvette Racing program exists for one simple reason: to win the premier GT1 class in the 24 Hours of Le Mans - the world's greatest sports car race - every year. Everything else Corvette Racing does revolves around that single quest, which is why they find themselves running without competition in the American Le Mans Series this year. The ALMS' connection to the world's most prestigious sports car race requires that Corvette Racing wins over here in the GT1 class first, even though no worthy competitor (other than the occasional Prodrive Aston Martin effort) runs consistently against the Corvette in the series, which makes for some less-than-ideal "We beat ourselves - again" headlines.
But a mid-engined production Corvette changes everything.
Remember the first scenario that I mentioned? That the next-generation Corvette would be in its current front-engined configuration with the possibility of a ultra-limited-production mid-engined "super" variant? The decision to go with a mid-engined configuration for the Corvette alters the landscape significantly. First of all, it eliminates the expense of developing (and paying for) two separate cars, which was something that the GM brass was not jumping up and down with joy about, understandably.
Secondly, it allows GM and Corvette Racing to do something that is long, long overdue, and that is to become the second American automobile manufacturer to go for the overall victory at the 24 Hours of Le Mans - something that hasn't been achieved since the glory days of Ford's four-year winning onslaught in the 60s - some 40 years ago.
As you read this, GM's senior brain trust is contemplating every facet of this mid-engined scenario down to the last detail for the Corvette. The facts of the matter are hard to deny: The technical issues are on the way to being solved, the classic Corvette high-performance value proposition would remain intact, and GM's drive to establish itself as a global technological leader would be enhanced and embellished, especially with a mid-engined Corvette Racing prototype going for the overall victory at Le Mans.
I strongly believe that Corvette's True Believers out there - some of whom have been wishing and hoping for a mid-engined Corvette since the early 70s - are finally going to have their prayers answered - and very, very soon.
The word from inside sources intimately familiar with the next-generation Corvette is that a final "go" decision for the mid-engined will be made by the last week in September, and given everything I've learned and everything I've pieced together on the timing, I'll bet the farm right now that the next-generation mid-engined Corvette will make its debut - on the street and at Le Mans.
Thanks for listening, see you next Wednesday.
copyright autoextremist 2007
This latest mid engine corvette rumor doesn' t seem to have any substantial conformation any more than the above rumor did. Reality here is that bringing a new car to market runs between 500 million and a billion dollars and 2 seater 100k+ sports cars that don't have a snooty name attached to them don't sell very well. Look at the dodge viper. Even with a snooty name they don't sell in volumes that GM could make a profit. Financially it is probably not something that GM management can sell to it's stockholders. So I remain skeptical of these rumors
AN AUTOEXTREMIST EXCLUSIVE: The Mid-Engined Corvette is not only back on the front burner - it looks to be a certainty. Autoextremist.com
Detroit. It was already supposed to be a done deal that the seventh generation of the Corvette would arrive in its current, front-engined, rear-wheel-drive configuration - albeit slightly smaller, lighter and with two engine choices. There was serious talk of an extremely limited production mid-engined "super" Corvette (fewer than 500 units), which would be built as an adjunct program to the traditional car, but that had not been decided. That's the way we reported it, and that was the assumption by many in the business as to how it was going to go down - until now. But after my conversations late last week with executives at the top of the company (who shall remain nameless for obvious reasons), I can tell you that the "idea" of a mid-engined Corvette has not only progressed far beyond the initial planning stages, the engineering on the car is well underway.
What brought on this monumental philosophical shift? Read on...
1. Cost. Up until this point, the argument that the Corvette's fundamental high-performance-for-the-money equation - one that has been a hallmark of the car since Zora Arkus-Duntov took over the program in the mid-50s - would be compromised with a mid-engined car has held sway over every future Corvette product discussion/decision. That's no longer the case, apparently. The two key stumbling blocks for a mid-engined Corvette that have always put a damper on previous discussions were the sophisticated, complex and highly expensive transaxle required, and the extremely difficult cooling challenges. The transaxle in particular has a heavy cost-per-piece price that cannot be subjected to shortcuts due to the engineering requirements necessary to accommodate the high horsepower output of a proper Corvette.
GM has found a way to solve these issues while still maintaining the Corvette's fundamental value proposition and while still delivering the kind of high performance expected of a car that wears the famed Corvette name. I have it on impeccable authority that as a result of the intensive engineering push in the last five weeks, the new car will have a target base price that's very close to a loaded Corvette convertible of today, a number that will keep the future mid-engined Corvette well within reach of its core buyers at current volume levels. This would also obviously allow the Corvette to remain true to its raison d'etre - and continue to outperform cars costing thousands upon thousands more.
Judging by the digital images I have seen, the new mid-engined Corvette is sensational looking, which, given GM Design's roll of late, certainly shouldn't be a surprise. Futuristic, purposeful and bristling with exquisite "signature" Corvette design elements - with no "blades" and no bull**** gimmicks - the new Corvette is everything the Corvette faithful could hope for. But an interesting sidebar? .
2. The Technological Imperative. There has always been a passionate group of True Believers within General Motors, Chevrolet and GM Racing that wanted to push the Corvette envelope further and aggressively present and promote the sports car as a technological showcase for the entire corporation. This group has always believed that GM has squandered the success of the Corvette - not only failing to use the power of the Corvette brand in corporate image advertising but failing to let the car's significant achievements in racing in recent years speak forcefully on behalf of the corporation in terms of technical ability. This is a belief I share, by the way, because in an era when GM - and the rest of Detroit - is literally and figuratively on the ropes and has become the favorite punching bag of the anti-car, anti-Detroit "intelligentsia" (and I use that term derisively) in the media and in Washington, here is a car that not only humbles cars costing thousands more on the street, it regularly competes and wins against the best that the competition has to offer on racetracks around the world. And its success goes largely unnoticed and unappreciated both within and outside the corporation.
The mid-engined configuration will not only propel the Corvette to the next level in terms of performance - giving cars such as the new Audi A8 and any future Porsche 911 fits, by the way (not to mention making Ferrari and Lamborghini very uncomfortable) - it will finally be able to assume the role as a global technological showcase for the corporation, something that it couldn't quite accomplish as long as it was hamstrung with its traditional front-engined configuration, even though the current Z06 already humbles some of the world's most expensive exotic sports cars.
Rick Wagoner got up in front of the media at the L.A. Auto Show last November and touted that GM was going to become a technological leader. But being a technological leader is about much more than producing plug-in electric cars - it's about demonstrating passion for the product and in your products - and the willingness to put your technological stake in the ground on all fronts. A mid-engined Corvette will help deliver Wagoner's positioning in spades.
3. The Competitive Imperative. Right now, GM's Corvette Racing program exists for one simple reason: to win the premier GT1 class in the 24 Hours of Le Mans - the world's greatest sports car race - every year. Everything else Corvette Racing does revolves around that single quest, which is why they find themselves running without competition in the American Le Mans Series this year. The ALMS' connection to the world's most prestigious sports car race requires that Corvette Racing wins over here in the GT1 class first, even though no worthy competitor (other than the occasional Prodrive Aston Martin effort) runs consistently against the Corvette in the series, which makes for some less-than-ideal "We beat ourselves - again" headlines.
But a mid-engined production Corvette changes everything.
Remember the first scenario that I mentioned? That the next-generation Corvette would be in its current front-engined configuration with the possibility of a ultra-limited-production mid-engined "super" variant? The decision to go with a mid-engined configuration for the Corvette alters the landscape significantly. First of all, it eliminates the expense of developing (and paying for) two separate cars, which was something that the GM brass was not jumping up and down with joy about, understandably.
Secondly, it allows GM and Corvette Racing to do something that is long, long overdue, and that is to become the second American automobile manufacturer to go for the overall victory at the 24 Hours of Le Mans - something that hasn't been achieved since the glory days of Ford's four-year winning onslaught in the 60s - some 40 years ago.
As you read this, GM's senior brain trust is contemplating every facet of this mid-engined scenario down to the last detail for the Corvette. The facts of the matter are hard to deny: The technical issues are on the way to being solved, the classic Corvette high-performance value proposition would remain intact, and GM's drive to establish itself as a global technological leader would be enhanced and embellished, especially with a mid-engined Corvette Racing prototype going for the overall victory at Le Mans.
I strongly believe that Corvette's True Believers out there - some of whom have been wishing and hoping for a mid-engined Corvette since the early 70s - are finally going to have their prayers answered - and very, very soon.
The word from inside sources intimately familiar with the next-generation Corvette is that a final "go" decision for the mid-engined will be made by the last week in September, and given everything I've learned and everything I've pieced together on the timing, I'll bet the farm right now that the next-generation mid-engined Corvette will make its debut - on the street and at Le Mans.
Thanks for listening, see you next Wednesday.
copyright autoextremist 2007
This latest mid engine corvette rumor doesn' t seem to have any substantial conformation any more than the above rumor did. Reality here is that bringing a new car to market runs between 500 million and a billion dollars and 2 seater 100k+ sports cars that don't have a snooty name attached to them don't sell very well. Look at the dodge viper. Even with a snooty name they don't sell in volumes that GM could make a profit. Financially it is probably not something that GM management can sell to it's stockholders. So I remain skeptical of these rumors
What you are missing is the C8 was originally the new C7 that GM was working on in and around 2007. Chapter 11 came along and shelved the plans like other models too like the ZL1 etc.
The C7 program was resurrected as an updated C6 while the mid engine C7 was moved to be a C8 and work has continued on it even while the C7 was being readied for market.
In other words the C7 was model just to buy time till GM had more time and money to do the mid engine correctly get it right. We will see advances left off the C7. GM made it clear last year the C7 was a short term car.
Now with that said a economic down turn could delay things again or other unforeseen thing but as it is now the car is coming at this point and is well on the way.
Anyway the story you posted here was the original ground work for the C8 then C7 till the chapter 11 changed the time line.
------------------ Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in.... Enzo Ferrari....
Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.... Enzo Ferrari...
Today they are called garage's, yesterday, they were stable's! Eric Jacobsen.... An advancement, of other voices I came across.
Do not walk infront of me, I may not follow. Do not walk behind me, I may not lead. Walk beside me and be my friend forever. -unknown- found here: http://crystal-cure.com/love-quote.html
You are not the audience for this vehicle though... There are people who have to have latest, no matter what. Most upgrades are "gimicks"... but it is what buyers want... something new, something someone else doesn't have. In the Corvette world.... a mid-engine car would be a standout and buyers will flock to have it. (buyers would be people with the disposable income and an interest in Corvettes).
Thats the most agreeable statement youve made in recent memory.... in this case, I think your 100% right. Of course they will 'perceive ' mid engine being a totally new thing which in fact was already mid engine (by definition) and they just moved it back a few feet. My question is when they do that, how will they manage the same 50/50 balance....add 300 lbs of weight in the front ? With the V8 behind the driver, the nose will be lighter in the front than a Fiero. Maybe they move the driver/passenger up over or in front of the front wheels
2017 Corvette lol
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-19-2014).]
I am not a GM employee but I do work in the performance aftermarket and know many people with in GM though my work. Some I have met over the years and some I even worked with over the years. They have taught me and shown me over the years how GM worked and in some cases how they do not work. They also have taught me things to watch for, In most cases they can not come out and tell you what is going to happen but they can hint. I have had it where I have been told I should not show you this but check this out. Those are neat times.
I have been following this story for a few years now and have been watching for clues. I knew they had been working on a mid engine at the same time as the C7 but never could figure how it fit in or if it may have even been a Cadillac. This is not a new story as the main media is just now convinced the project is alive and on track now. They too have been watching this for a long time too.
The info leaking out now is too consistent and I suspect it was a planned GM leak to get some media attention away from the Hellcat and Mustang. Anymore much of what comes out is a planned leak. Security since the bail out is pretty tight. Even my Friends leak little anymore.
The spy shots of cars you see are often staged. GM knows where cars can be seen from the outside at Warren and they take them there when they want them seen. Same in the wild as one friend is a spy photographer and GM will make deals with him to take some shots of cars they want seen. They get out the info he wants and he makes money on his shots. Jim Dunn Spy photographer stated he did the same in his book too.
If this car is set for 2017 we should see the mules in Death Valley next August for hot weather testing. This is one area and time we all know comes around they can not reproduce anywhere. Also we should see them at the Ring in Germany next spring. They will be in camo but we will get a clue like we did with the C7 at what is coming.
The truth is this could call get shelved again as until something hits the show rooms nothing is 100%. But in this case there really is something going on and this is not the all tease game they have played in the past. The Corvette is in a place now where it is very well supported by management and it is getting priority it has not seen in years. The C7 improvement bear this out. They got funding for things they never got in the past and it shows in the quality of the new car.
I would also recommend watching the Camaro as it will see a jump in refinement you have never seem. It is already running around and GM leaked some exposure for photos already. It is in Camo but you can tell what size and wheel base we are looking at.
The people I know also were a big help in getting my 1990 Fiero emblems confirmed. One even sent me a laminated 4x4 engineering drawing of my emblems that confirmed what they were and when they were done. This is what led to the story I helped Don Keefe write for HPP magazine.
It is not what you know but who you know that is important.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 09-26-2014).]
Mid engine concept back in the day, or should I say REAR.
"The birth of the Corvette began in 1952 with EX122, a fiberglass-bodied two-seater named after a fast Navy warship. By the 1953 GM Motorama show at New York City’s Waldorf-Astoria hotel, the car was ready for production. Design teams led by Harley Earl, then Mitchell, came up with concepts and engineeering test beds to tease what future Vettes would look like.
Some were designed to be race cars like the Corvette SS (Super Sport) of 1957 and the first rear-engined Vette — the CERV 1 (Chevrolet Engineering Research Vehicle). The 1959 car had all-wheel drive and looked like an open-wheel race car. Then came the Stingray racer in 1959, actually an adaptation of the Corvette SS designed by Brock and the team.
Then there was XP-819, which was born because Winchell was working on the rear-engined 1960-1969 Chevrolet Corvair. Duntov, whose own concepts in future years included mid-engine design, scoffed at the 60/40 rear weight bias of Winchell’s idea.
Legendary Corvette designer Larry Shinoda came up with the XP-819 shape in 1964, its overall look to show up in the Mako Shark concept-derived 1968 C3 Vette. It had the pointed nose with the edgy fenders rising behind it. The Coke-bottle waist at the doorline is there, as are the lift-off roof and trailing edges that flow into the tail shape.
The XP-819 had a small-block GM marine V-8 hanging backward, hooked to a two-speed transaxle on a custom backbone chassis with larger tires in back to handle the rearward weight. The gas tank was in the center line under the console. And like the new C7 Corvette, the XP-819 had a radiator that leans forward and ducts out through the hood.
““By putting the gas tank in the center of the car, literally and figuratively centered front to back and side to side, it helped with all the weight in the back of the car,” Yager said.
Tests showed there were stability issues with the XP-819. But this was a test bed for ideas that did further develop the idea of a rear-engined Vette.
The next rear-engine XP moved the V-8 further forward, and mounted it transversely to be closer to a mid-engine design.
“That was done under Zora and that was all OK. This car was not OK because Zora didn’t do the car,” he said. “It was not a show car. It was truly an engineering and development vehicle.”
Alas, the XP-819 was a dead end and Chevrolet sent it to be cut up at well-known race mechanic Smokey Yunick’s “Best Damn Garage” in Daytona Beach. Its remains were discovered by a Missouri Chevrolet dealer named Steve Tate in 1979, its center section and gas tank missing. Reassembled with steel tubing, it was displayed at the National Corvette Museum until Yager found it in 2002.
With the help of Kevin Mackay and the original planning book for XP-819, its frame-off restoration was begun, missing parts researched and handmade. While the body has been redone, Yager said the decision was made to show the restored operational chassis with steering column and two seats at the Amelia Island Concours d’Elegance. But the finished car will debut at the 2014 Amelia."
I saw this one in the GM Heritage center (not my pic, but I have one somewhere on one of these hard drives)
I've always liked the Banshee better, but both cars are from an era in car design that I still use as my standard of beauty. It's why I love my cars to be shaped like door stops.
As for the rumored Vette, the current model looks pretty darn good, better than it has looked in a long time (except for the very boxy rear fascia).
I can't speak for how it rides/drives versus other Corvettes, but even close up it passes the eye test.
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Originally posted by rogergarrison:Of course they will 'perceive ' mid engine being a totally new thing which in fact was already mid engine (by definition) and they just moved it back a few feet. My question is when they do that, how will they manage the same 50/50 balance....add 300 lbs of weight in the front ? With the V8 behind the driver, the nose will be lighter in the front than a Fiero. Maybe they move the driver/passenger up over or in front of the front wheels
I think you'll find that while the Corvette technically qualifies as a mid-engined car, it does not handle like one. The C7 engine being over and behind the front axle is not even remotely the same and placing it between the axles. Concentrating the mass as close to the center of the car decreases the polar moment of inertia, resulting in a decidedly more agile car - all else being equal, and of course up to a point. Granted, with a low polar moment of inertia a car in a spin will be more difficult to correct, but GM isn't building a commuter, they're building a race car. All the world's best sports cars are "conventionally" mid-engined for this reason. It's better, not just perceived better. You couldn't achieve the same result in a FM car unless you either have a 600lb driver to add mass inboard or the driver sitting over the rear wheels to move the engine & transmission back far enough. Sticking the driver *and* engine as squarely between the wheelbase as possible is the correct answer, and you do that by putting the engine behind the driver. Moving the engine further back will also naturally improve weight transfer during launch and braking, which will have a direct correlation to track times, and getting rid of a driveshaft and exhaust saves weight and affords the opportunity to place the occupants lower in the car to improve the CoG. As with the 911, the Corvette is a brilliant execution - of a flawed design. There is big room for improvement on the racetrack and GM knows it. Hell, they knew it 30 years ago. Bean counting is why things are the way they are, not technical merit. The Corvette, so far, has done very well to manage its inferior layout and of course that works well enough for the average Corvette buyer. But if GM is going to realize their dreams, good enough will no longer be good enough.
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Here is my picture of the mid-engine Aerovette at the GM Heritage Center. This car was close to becoming the 1980 production Corvette until GM pulled back at the last minute.
I would not be surprised to see a mid-engine Corvette in the future. Once you get close to 700 hp, a front engine car would have trouble putting that much hp on the ground, not the case with a mid-engine.
Remember the seperate XLR line in the Bowling Green Plant. It would be the perfect place to do a limited run ME car. I also heard rumors of mid-engine XLR's prototypes before the GM bankruptcy.
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Here is the mid-engine 1962 Corvair Monza GT, at one point it was being worked on for production. The front end of the car looks alot like the 68 vette. Picture I took at GM Heritage Center. The red car next to it is the rear engine 1963 Corvair Monza SS.
[This message has been edited by gtjeff (edited 10-05-2014).]
Wow, I had no idea the Aerovette was transverse - I'd always assumed it was longitudinal like every other contemporary mid-engined car. GM was really going outside the box with this one!
If you go back to the Motor Trend Stories of June 1970 and December 1971 Both stories were illustrated with a chassis that GM had been considering. It was drawn for them by Harry Bradley who worked For GM for many years and later was one of the original designers of Many Hot Wheels.
They took a very basic approach to the space frame as it was full perimeter with a roll bar. Each story has a Transverse Engine one a 454 and the other a Rotory. The Coolant lines were in the rockers and the radiator leans forward just as the Fiero and the C7 do today.
I did not really understand when I first saw these photos that they were rooted in more truth than I had considered. This concept was popular with the advanced design group at the GM Tech Center in the 70's. Once Chevy and the Corvette people rejected it the concept was floated over to Hulki and the Fiero team as they were looking to find a way to lower the cowl of the Fiero. If the engine had remained up front the cowl would have had to remain higher and you would have ended up with a car more like the Mercury Carpi from Australia vs. more sporty like the Fiero.
Much of the information on where this came from was in the book Inside the Corvette by Dave McClelland the past lead on the Corvette team.
From what I can gather between what Hulki and the Dave said that they were looking for an answer and the preliminary work was offered to help them find a solution by GM advanced design.
When you see the drawings right away you can see the Fiero concept origins.
Here are the photos in this thread from years ago.
The origin of the transverse mid engine also go back to Lamborghini as they were the first true production use of it. That may have been where GM got the idea from originally.
Might also note that Cadillac’s newly appointed CEO Johan de Nysschen has stated that Cadillac will begin to produce their own engines and add more higher end models in the near future. He did make a statement that they would like to do not one but 2 sports cars. It has already been stated that the new mid engine Corvette could base a Cadillac model but be very different in how it appears.
Note de Nysschen is the guy who turned Audi around and has experience with taking a Lamborghini and turning the platform into a Audi R8. Both cars are bases on the same platform but with very different natures.
I really don't think people realize there has been a major change at GM and the people who say we can't or won't are no longer part of the problem culture anymore.
I would recommend not only Bob Lutz book Car Guys vs. Bean Counters but also the November issue of Road and Track. He has on the last page the story of how the Aztek came about. This is a very good story on the damaged culture that was GM that prevented many things. Much of that culture is gone or being removed.
The best story he had was panel gaps. He asked why GM could not have panel gaps that were class leading like Hyundai. He was told by the engineer they could easily do it. Then asked why they had not. He said we were not told to do it. It seems they were not able to do things they needed to do unless they were told to. Lutz told him you have been told and if you think it needs done just do it. The engineer went back and for little money fixed the gaps on the next 08 Malibu and since then the panel gaps are industry leading.
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Wow, I had no idea the Aerovette was transverse - I'd always assumed it was longitudinal like every other contemporary mid-engined car. GM was really going outside the box with this one!
Sorry there is not a side profile picture, GM had the car wedged in the day I was there. Here is the front profile of the car. Notice how low the Aerovette is to the ground compared to what looks like a 1978 Vette pace car next to it. Keep your eye on this thread, I have a few more mid-engine pics to add later today.
[This message has been edited by gtjeff (edited 10-05-2014).]
That is awesome info - thank you for sharing! I've always been fascinated by the culture in the heyday of GM - they had good stuff going on, but collectively couldn't figure out what to do after the '60s. Emissions control, safety standards, fuel crunch - it was all sorts of crazy anti-fun that they just couldn't seem to digest. Reality hit GM *really* hard.
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Might also note that Cadillac’s newly appointed CEO Johan de Nysschen has stated that Cadillac will begin to produce their own engines and add more higher end models in the near future. He did make a statement that they would like to do not one but 2 sports cars. It has already been stated that the new mid engine Corvette could base a Cadillac model but be very different in how it appears.
I read that, and it sort of makes me sad. Nobody is upset about Cadillac's current engine loadout. All their shared engines from the Ecotech to the LSx are fabulous motors and that seems like the last thing Cadillac should worry itself with. Save money on shared engines and spend every last bit of it on interior materials, safety gadgets, and ride tuning. Nobody who rode in or drove my CTS-V had anything but praise for the engine - but we all agreed the interior materials were a joke compared to a 5er. Every minute that passes is another minute that fewer people care about what's under the hood, and more people care about how it feels. It seems as though GM's culture is changing, they still haven't fully digested how to make a superbly competitive car. Breaks my heart!
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 10-05-2014).]
Well here is the problem. I agree the present engines are great but they are not enough if you want to play in the premium class of cars. In this area people expect more and want more. They want technology and they want more of everything be it power, cams, Turbo's cylinders etc. It is the class of excess. Also the people who love GM have no issue over an engine that is shared with a pick up truck. But if you want to take buyers away from other makes you have to give them what they want and look for.
As for the interiors the latest models with the cut and sew interiors are class leading so they have it right. A little more instant user friendly on the Cue and that should be handled.
As for handling the latest CTS Sport V is as good as the M series and we will soon see the CTSV that will take it to the next level.
The key to this is if you want Cadillac to be taken seriously in this segment they need to address the heart of the car and that is the drivetrain. I love the Eco 2.0 Turbo but it should be more refined in the ATS and CTS along it should have at least 320-350 HP as the engine is very capable now for this. While it is cool I have a 300 HP Eco Turbo in my HHR SS from a Cadillac it is not cool for a CTS owner to have an HHR SS engine in his vehicle he paid 3 times more for. At that price point GM owes him more. Same goes for my Steering wheel as it is the same from a ZR1 as is my Sun Roof is the same as a CTS. But when you paid $60K - 120K more GM should do better.
Pontiac started to die when they took away their own engine. What made Pontiac more different than Chevy was the drivetrain. Red dash lights and a little different styling is fine but the read heart and sole was their engines and once that was lost they just become another styling exercise. Only some bright spots like the Fiero were really true Pontiac efforts post 1979.
GM could just stroke along and take what they can get in buyers or they can fully go all in and go after what these non GM buyers want. As it is the average Cadillac buyer is the oldest and as we go on they are slowly dying off. It is a matter of time that unless you get to the younger buyers you will fade away as who will replace these buyers? You must give them a legitimate vehicle that will appeal to the conquest buyers.
As Lutz said much about cars is Image and owner self-indulgence. In this segment most buy for what the car says about them as an owner and so much anything else. You give them the most advance technology and you give them a segment leading car in performance and as well styling and you will sell cars to people who never would have considered them.
I find it exciting that GM for once is getting back to what Cadillac used to be all about. Just take a look at the Chicago Worlds fair V6
This was when Cadillac ruled the world. This car had advanced styling, technology and an engine few would ever imagined in the V16. This car had excess and was considered at the time one of the greatest cars ever built. This is what they wan to work to get back to.
To be a world leader you do not share parts with a Chevy no matter how good they are. You go out and do something and you do it even better.
As for the Mid Engine Vette. This may have jumped started Ford as word is they are bringing back the Ford GT.
Originally posted by IMSA GT: Arguing over something that has nothing to do with a Fiero....great.
I share your apparent disappointment regarding that particular point; I don't see why a new, mid-engine Corvette should meaningfully impact total consumers' overall interest in Fieros, one way or another.
Nonetheless, consistent with the right of a forum member to do so, there is at least one person who appears to disagree with you, myself, or others on that particular point:
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Originally posted by tshark: This will not help the value of the Fiero. In fact, the Corvette, as a mid-engine layout, could finish the Fiero once and for all. On the other hand, it could revive interest in the Fiero for those who can't afford the Corvette, and possibly provide us with upgrade parts.
I find amusing and applaud ( ) that bit of what I choose to call, "unequivocal equivocation."
On the one hand, the post's originator asserts that "...the Corvette, as a mid-engine layout, could finish the Fiero once and for all" ( ) --- an assertion immediately followed by an assertion to the contrary on his part, "On the other hand, it could renew interest in the Fiero...." ( )
I normally might regard that degree of equivocation as perhaps worthy of the admiration of any aspiring politician uninterested in stating a definitive position on anything. Unfortunately, even that degree of equivocation blatantly ignores a third possibility --- one likely far more probable than the other two combined, namely: A new, mid-engine Corvette is unlikely to have any meaningful impact on total consumers' overall interest in Fieros, one way or another.
My pictures of the two versions of the mid-engine Oldsmobile Aerotech at the GM Heritage Center. This car held the land speed record at about 257 mph. Ed Welburn was the designer, he got the chance to drive one of these for the first time just recently.
[This message has been edited by gtjeff (edited 10-05-2014).]
Last one I have: 1986 mid-engine Corvette Indy concept car with transverse mounted v8. Looks like some Fiero influence here. Again taken by me at GM Heritage Center. The engine picture got cut off in developing the film.
Originally posted by project34: I normally might regard that degree of equivocation as perhaps worthy of the admiration of any aspiring politician uninterested in stating a definitive position on anything. Unfortunately, even that degree of equivocation blatantly ignores a third possibility --- one likely far more probable than the other two combined, namely: A new, mid-engine Corvette is unlikely to have any meaningful impact on total consumers' overall interest in Fieros, one way or another.
I considered the third possibility, hence the statement about not helping the value; however, it may not be ”far more likely”. Notice that Ford is apparently watching this. The Fiero is a 2-seater, mid-engine vehicle. While the MR2 is out, maybe an American mid-engine vehicle will find some buyers. A GM version would potentially provide us with upgrade parts. This is a niche market, although a different class of buyer. If they sell, the market could become super-saturated. It depends on the styling. The more similar the look, the better for the Fiero. Remember that the original Fiero was mistaken for a Corvette. Different era now, though, and Corvette probably wouldn't allow that to happen again, anyway. I'm considering all angles. Fiero people will still be Fiero people.
I mentioned the mid-engine Corvette to a car guy. His response was something like, ”a Corvette is just another Chevrolet”.
Bottom line, I don't know what will happen, and neither do you. If this Corvette materializes, I'd like to see/drive it, but I won't buy one; however, if the opportunity came to get a new Fiero with all the upgrades I'd like, for a reasonable cost, I might trade up.
Originally posted by tshark: I considered the third possibility, hence the statement about not helping the value; however, it may not be ”far more likely”. Notice that Ford is apparently watching this. The Fiero is a 2-seater, mid-engine vehicle. While the MR2 is out, maybe an American mid-engine vehicle will find some buyers. A GM version would potentially provide us with upgrade parts. This is a niche market, although a different class of buyer. If they sell, the market could become super-saturated. It depends on the styling. The more similar the look, the better for the Fiero. Remember that the original Fiero was mistaken for a Corvette. Different era now, though, and Corvette probably wouldn't allow that to happen again, anyway. I'm considering all angles. Fiero people will still be Fiero people.
I mentioned the mid-engine Corvette to a car guy. His response was something like, ”a Corvette is just another Chevrolet”.
Bottom line, I don't know what will happen, and neither do you. If this Corvette materializes, I'd like to see/drive it, but I won't buy one; however, if the opportunity came to get a new Fiero with all the upgrades I'd like, for a reasonable cost, I might trade up.
I highly doubt it will provide any real upgrade potential for Fiero owners, beyond what current GM offerings provide. If their big reason for moving the engine behind the driver is that they're reaching the limits of how much power they can provide in the car with the engine up front, then it's extremely unlikely for this new thing to be a transverse layout in the rear. For those who don't mind losing the trunk, and/or have stretched their car (for a replica or whatever), it might provide a new transmission with the large SBC bell pattern, that can be used for longitudinal swaps, instead of the Porsche transmission. This will probably be a larger benefit to those wishing to build a GTM kit, rather than Fiero owners though.
) that bit of what I choose to call, "unequivocal equivocation."
) --- an assertion immediately followed by an assertion to the contrary on his part, "On the other hand, it could renew interest in the Fiero...." ( 
