In the new Car and Driver they have an article with pictures of a new Corvette for 2017. It is mid engine. They compare it to a Porsche and another mid engine car, but no mention of Fiero even though it was a product of their mother company, GM. I feel they are in denial and acting like the Fiero never happened. What a shame. Harry
[This message has been edited by HarryT (edited 09-14-2014).]
To be fair, it was 30 years ago & the Fiero was an economic car 1st, sporty v6 2nd. To compare a 600+hp mid engine car to a Fiero is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. That being said, however, a similar hp Porsche, still in production, this makes more sense.
GM's biggest mistake is that they keep trying to bullshit around with the Corvette which is overrated, overpriced, and uncomfortable as hell. They have no good design crew anymore so they keep dicking with a car that is a piece of plastic crap with a 600hp motor stuffed inside. If they designed a NEW car with a mid engine, they may actually gain new customers even from the Euro crowd but again, they just choose to redesign a turd and hope that it catches on.
GM's biggest mistake is that they keep trying to bullshit around with the Corvette which is overrated, overpriced, and uncomfortable as hell. They have no good design crew anymore so they keep dicking with a car that is a piece of plastic crap with a 600hp motor stuffed inside. If they designed a NEW car with a mid engine, they may actually gain new customers even from the Euro crowd but again, they just choose to redesign a turd and hope that it catches on.
I'm going to assume you've never seen a new C7 in person, because you've definitely never sat in one and never driven one. I have.
The seats are amazing, they hug you in every spot, the bolstering is perfect and they are super comfy. The car has multiple different "modes" so you can change how soft or hard the suspension is, making it as comfortable as you want.
Now, saying the car is overrated and overpriced, wrong again. The new C7 tops out around $74,000, and is beating cars, including the Viper, many Porches, etc, that are well over $100k I would say, as well as many experts, that this car is a bargain and outperforms many cars outside its class.
Of course, you're welcome to your opinion, luckily for you.
I will agree that GM should be designing its own separate mid-engine car and leave the Vette how it is, but I can't control that. Also, the new Corvette is a spitting image in a lot of ways of the Ferrari F12, but, oh well, its unique in its own way.
[This message has been edited by DKcustoms (edited 09-14-2014).]
The C7 is by far a great car and for the money nothing else is close. GM finally was funded to finish the car and it is what they wanted for once and not just what they could afford.
This C8 deal is real and we will have to see how it works out. The future for power sports cars will require some major changes and this is part of the story. I expect at some point we may also see a Hybrid system involved here too.
Reports also have been going around the Vette Team has an engine with 1,000 plus HP but we have yet to hear if it is just engine or with a hybrid system. The issues they are having is getting the power to the ground right now. Nothing more was said.
As for the C7 the car has been a run away success as it is selling in near record numbers. I has been getting world acclaim by the media and has a waiting list nearly a year long. Anyone who is calling this a over rated turd either is jealous or has no clue. While the cars in the past have always lacked this one was done right.
The truth is the V8 was really to have been a C7 but GM delayed it as it would have taken more time to get to market. GM moved it to be the C8 and did a new complete C7 so they could ease this one into production better and keep both the 7 and 8 around as they transform the car.
The future to powerful performance cars will be systems similar to the 918 and as time goes on the prices will come down on this technology. If you are not familiar with the 918 I would check it out as it is an amazing car. I really hate to see the companies have to resort to such systems but to keep cars like this in production they will have to go this route.
Comfort isn't the same for everyone. I found the new Stingray VERY comfortable, like it was designed for me. Everything came to hand, the car was responsive, and an overall delight. I wasn't racing it, but I had no complaints. It delivered. For the sake of correctness, this was the end of LAST year, and this particular specemin was specially prepped by GM, so it may have been a bit different. If I recall correctly, it was the 700HP variety. It was either T-Top or hard top--probably the latter. I'd have to find the picture. Someone who is a different size/shape may not have been as comfortable. YMMV.
The Corvette and Chevrolet seem to have won a lot of races this year. I seem to recall a race early in the year in which a Corvette finished 1, 2, and 3 against Porsches, Mazdas, etc. May have been the Rolex 24 sports car series or a GT series race.
IMSA seems to have had a lot of cars. I dunno. People have different tastes.
This will not help the value of the Fiero. In fact, the Corvette, as a mid-engine layout, could finish the Fiero once and for all. On the other hand, it could revive interest in the Fiero for those who can't afford the Corvette, and possibly provide us with upgrade parts.
[This message has been edited by tshark (edited 09-14-2014).]
I think a mid engine vette would rock. Is this perhaps a real world test session??
Not really a test program but when the C8 was started this marketing in this segment would have played parts. Once the car was delayed they kept the racing program. This was the first hint on what they were planning.
Not the DP car is a full on race car and not production.
I guess I should have started by saying that I can't stand GM. I'm a Ford and Dodge guy so to me, GM simply has run out of ideas for good vehicles and is trying to modify the "best seller". In the business world when you put all of your eggs in one basket, sometimes you end up with nothing in the end.
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Originally posted by tshark: IMSA seems to have had a lot of cars. I dunno. People have different tastes.
Actually, you are correct. I have owned Saleens, Vipers, Prowlers, Corvairs, Fiats, and Fieros so I have been all over the place with vehicle luxury and quality all the way down to the simplest interior with no A/C, a steel dash, and crank windows. In the end, I'm not a GM fan. Too much bullshit within the company and especially with their bailout. The only cars from GM that I would have owned would have been the G8 or the Cadillac CTS V....which are very similar cars.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 09-14-2014).]
Comfort isn't the same for everyone. I found the new Stingray VERY comfortable, like it was designed for me. Everything came to hand, the car was responsive, and an overall delight. I wasn't racing it, but I had no complaints. It delivered. For the sake of correctness, this was the end of LAST year, and this particular specemin was specially prepped by GM, so it may have been a bit different. If I recall correctly, it was the 700HP variety. It was either T-Top or hard top--probably the latter. I'd have to find the picture. Someone who is a different size/shape may not have been as comfortable. YMMV.
The Corvette and Chevrolet seem to have won a lot of races this year. I seem to recall a race early in the year in which a Corvette finished 1, 2, and 3 against Porsches, Mazdas, etc. May have been the Rolex 24 sports car series or a GT series race.
IMSA seems to have had a lot of cars. I dunno. People have different tastes.
This will not help the value of the Fiero. In fact, the Corvette, as a mid-engine layout, could finish the Fiero once and for all. On the other hand, it could revive interest in the Fiero for those who can't afford the Corvette, and possibly provide us with upgrade parts.
The Fiero was not coming back. The name is still an issue for marketing and the fact Pontiac is no longer around just compounds it. Besides to do it right no one would pay that much for a Fiero but they would for a Corvette.
As for taste some folks the only taste they have is in their mouths. LOL!
The truth is the automakers have to target the largest part of the segment and there is always someone going to be upset somewhere. Case in point the Viper. While it does a lot of neat things the fact is it does not do them in the part of the segment where most of the sales are. Today they are discounting the Viper now as it has missed the mark. Refinement has played a big part in the market today and that is what the Viper needs to find to continue. While it may sell to the fringe the fringe has too few buyers to keep the production viable.
The other way you can keep the fringe happy is charge more but in this case that will not work either.
GM's biggest mistake is that they keep trying to bullshit around with the Corvette which is overrated, overpriced, and uncomfortable as hell. They have no good design crew anymore so they keep dicking with a car that is a piece of plastic crap with a 600hp motor stuffed inside. If they designed a NEW car with a mid engine, they may actually gain new customers even from the Euro crowd but again, they just choose to redesign a turd and hope that it catches on.
Using a different car probably would have been wise, as they would not lose diehard front engine fans. But I'm sure the same rule applies as did with Fiero, then whatever this other car would be would compete with the Vette and they cant have that.
I still have doubts it will actually have the "Corvette" name or brand anywhere near it. The only things I'd expect it to have in common with the Vette are the engine and transmission. Beyond that, I'd be expecting to see a whole new platform if GM is really looking to build a rear mid-engine supercar for $125K.
"That’s why instead of offering only one Corvette when the car moves to the C8 generation, an entire family of ‘Vettes will be on offer.
Motor Trend says Corvette is “obviously strong enough to stand as its own brand,” and we’d have to agree.
For the Corvette family, there will be a front-engined car (maybe called Stingray again?) which would serve as the entry-level model and would be based off of the existing C7 Corvette. This car would appease Corvette traditionalists and ensure the car stays affordable, which is a large part of what has made the Corvette so successful.
The C8 ZR1 or “Zora” would be the second model in the Corvette model range. This will be the mid-engine car, which will ride on an all-new platform separate from that of the C7 Corvette. Motor Trend points out it is possible to do a front and mid-engine car on the same platform, but it would be difficult and “freakishly expensive.” The Zora Corvette will get the most powerful engines on offer, possibly with an output north of 750 horsepower. All-wheel drive is a possibility, but that brings us back to the topic of staying true to Corvette tradition.
What Chevrolet is allegedly planning to do with the Corvette family can be compared to what Porsche has done. They still offer the 911 in multiple variants to please those that appreciate the long-standing tradition of the rear-engine sports car, but also offer cars like the 918 which allows them to go head-to-head with Ferrari and McLaren while not completely desecrating the 911 name. "
I don't get that allusion to Porsche either. The 918 isn't called a 911. Just the same as the Carrera GT was also not called a 911.
Another post on the same site said there hasn't been a mid-engine American sports car since the Fiero. Which is also nonsense. Have they never heard of a Saleen S7 or Ford GT?
I think so too. But thats all any of it is until it happens I suppose. I'm not sure what to think of the Ford GT, having only produced "4,038 units" from what I saw online. With its availability being so limited and expensive it doesnt easily compare to Fiero or Corvette for that matter. But technically it is mid engine and qualifies. I never even thought about the Saleen, a supercar. Not sure how many they made for the street.
When a car is called "limited-production" does it count?
I think so too. But thats all any of it is until it happens I suppose. I'm not sure what to think of the Ford GT, having only produced "4,038 units" from what I saw online. With its availability being so limited and expensive it doesnt easily compare to Fiero or Corvette for that matter. But technically it is mid engine and qualifies. I never even thought about the Saleen, a supercar. Not sure how many they made for the street.
When a car is called "limited-production" does it count?
How many of these mid-engined cars do you think GM is going to sell, if they are going to cost $125-150K to get one? The cars that everyone is comparing this thing to, are all supercars, and are all "limited" production.
But the Fiero wasn't even a sports car. It was a compact commuter. So does it count as an American mid-engined sports car, just because some of us threw a V8 into one?
The Fiero GT was a sports car, especially the manual transmission version. You have to consider what the performance standards were at the time. Go back and look at the motor week comparison test between it and the MR2. You have the right to not like the car but it definitely was a sports car.
Counts as a mid engine mass produced car. Doesnt mater what class as far as that goes. I wonder if there is a magic number to make a car officially "mass produced"?
Thats what Iwonder about the "family" bit. If they sell 50,000 base models and only 5,000 high end blow your pants off models, its probably showing on paper "55,000 sold". (for example)
But anyway its vague. No big deal to me. You average Joe wont even know what year Fieros were offered, how many cylinders they had, or may call them rear engine.
"There is no fixed definition of the number of vehicles or the amount of modification allowed outside of motorsports or national regulations or laws that determine what is or is not a production vehicle." "Limited production cars[edit]These are usually vehicles where the production run is restricted to a specific number of vehicles. An example of this is the 1957 Rambler Rebel, a limited-production car where only 1,500 were produced" "Pre-production cars come after prototypes or development mules, which themselves may be preceded by concept cars. Pre-production vehicles are followed by production vehicles in the mass production for distribution through car dealerships." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_vehicle
I would think that if the 4 cylinder Mazda Miata is a sports car then all versions of the Fiero must be too, but its all good, people will think what they think. As to the mid-engine Corvette, it doesn't matter to me if they make it or not, I would never be able to buy one unless I won the lottery.
The Fiero GT was a sports car, especially the manual transmission version. You have to consider what the performance standards were at the time. Go back and look at the motor week comparison test between it and the MR2. You have the right to not like the car but it definitely was a sports car.
It's not about liking it or not. It's not about performance standards at the time. It's not even about Pontiac wanting it to be the sports car we all wanted it to be. The Fiero was a relegated to being a small commuter car by GM.
Another post on the same site said there hasn't been a mid-engine American sports car since the Fiero. Which is also nonsense. Have they never heard of a Saleen S7 or Ford GT?
I believe they mean there hasn't been a 'mass produced' mid engined sports car since the Fiero.
Saleen S7 and the Ford GT only had limited runs, where the Fiero was however many hundred thousand cars.
Even the Delorean is not often considered, as only 9,000 were made. And the Corvair is rear-engined technically so that isn't in the same category
Every Corvette since 83 is mid engine. Definition : engine is located between the front and rear axle centers. They need to call it what it is...rear engined or behind the driver engined. Of course real true 'rear' engine car means the engine is behind the rear axle center. (ie/ VW bug, Gia, Bus, older Porsches.) Fiero , most Ferraris, Lambos, Pantera and MR2 are mid engine with most of the engine weight is on the rear wheels or equal on both ends.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-15-2014).]
Hope the MR vette happens. I mean the MR that everyone considers MR, not just the "well it is between the front and rear already" MR. Having it actually behind the cabin will put the Vette and GM into a whole new ballgame. At least as far as supercars go. If they do make a MR vette, it will be my goal to eventually own one someday. I'm sure it will be just like most other Corvettes and give you a lot of bang for your buck.
It is kind of hard to imagine GM hitting a homer when they try this new ballgame. Mostly because their past attempts have always ended with them jumping ship right as they got the hang of things. For example I would like to mention the Fiero and the Pontiac Solstice. Both great cars that could have lead to much greater things, but only hit a dead end and hit it hard.
GM has been looking and thinking about selling the Corvette as a brand. That would open the door to variations of the model. This is no new news.
Second the Mid engine car will take the place of the limited edition ZR1 and would be expected to sell in numbers 3000 or less per year in the initial high price offering
Third in time they will make more of these in cheaper forms that may supplant the Stingray or just let the Stingray carry on as Its own model.
The fact is to keep making uber power and a top performing car things have got to change as what they have now will not be able to continue.
This will be a whole new platform as the C7 will not work to make it mid engine. They had looked at doing one that would do both but it never worked out well.
The fact is for the high price they can do this and do it in low volumes and advance the brand. Cadillac does not need this car and neither does Buick. GM will be going back to Europe with the Cadillac and the Corvette. They also will sell the Camaro there but with Chevy gone the branding will be more on the model vs. the brand name. That is why the Corvette brand will see some independents.
While here in the stated it will all remain Chevy it will be more focused on the Corvette name.
This is the Porsche deal. the 918 and the 911 are two models but both are Porsche. The Corvette will offer the Stingray and the Zora as two models but under the Corvette brand outside North America.
The fact is the Corvette name has a lot of equity and it is strong enough to push two models GM leveraged the Corvette out in the 60's too with many show cars and all the round tail lights we found on everything from Corvair to Chevelle. Hell they played the Corvair up on the Corvette heritage with the independent rear end and with some of the styling cues. Though it is funny the Ford GT 40 originally used Corvair tail lamps.
As for the Fiero it was sold to the brass as a commuter car but Pontiac never intended that. To be honest if you really dig and learn the real origin of the Fiero it goes back to the GM Tech Center staff in the mid 70's. The car was originally a proposal for a mid transverse engine V6 Corvette. Chevy and the Corvette team both rejected this and when Hulki was looking to lower the cowl on the Fiero the GM tech center offered their proposal to the Fiero team. This can be found in the book inside the Corvette by Dave McClelland.
So when you come down to it the Fiero really has some roots to a Corvette Design proposal that just never got thrown away. Note GM also did one with a 454 transverse lay out with a space frame too. I have a copy of the drawing somewhere and it looked very similar to what we got.
Like I said do not be quick to reject this as have heard about this for 3 years and it is rooted in a lot of truth. Only if a plug gets pulled do I expect things to change much at this point. I would expect to see mules by next summer. Note they may be cleverly cloaked too.
It's not about liking it or not. It's not about performance standards at the time. It's not even about Pontiac wanting it to be the sports car we all wanted it to be. The Fiero was a relegated to being a small commuter car by GM.
I refer you to the Motorweek test of the time where they picked it over the mr2
Originally posted by Csjag: I refer you to the Motorweek test of the time where they picked it over the mr2
And? That makes it a sports car? The original MR2 and the Fiero were both commuter cars. If the Fiero had made it to the second generation, it would have become a sports car, as GM had finally started getting all the things right to make it one. Like the second gen MR2 finally became a sports car.
And? That makes it a sports car? The original MR2 and the Fiero were both commuter cars. If the Fiero had made it to the second generation, it would have become a sports car, as GM had finally started getting all the things right to make it one. Like the second gen MR2 finally became a sports car.
I respect your opinion but I disagree just like some may disagree with my opinion that a car with an automatic transmission is not a sports car. Its all good we each like what we like and that's why they make so many different models of cars.
The newer Vettes already have nearly 50/50 balance. What advantage would it be to move the engine back farther and give it more rear end bias ? It would simply spin out easier. Rear engine 911s are notorious for that...they grip surprisingly well until you reach that magic point where they go instantly out of control. They helped it a bit by putting 16" wide tires on the back...
The newer Vettes already have nearly 50/50 balance. What advantage would it be to move the engine back farther and give it more rear end bias ? It would simply spin out easier. Rear engine 911s are notorious for that...they grip surprisingly well until you reach that magic point where they go instantly out of control. They helped it a bit by putting 16" wide tires on the back...
Yes, snap over steer is what killed the Fast and Furious star
I don't get that allusion to Porsche either. The 918 isn't called a 911. Just the same as the Carrera GT was also not called a 911.
Another post on the same site said there hasn't been a mid-engine American sports car since the Fiero. Which is also nonsense. Have they never heard of a Saleen S7 or Ford GT?
We shouldn't be referencing the 918 and the 911 when comparing a rear engine line and a mid engine line. It should be the 911 and the cayman.
We shouldn't be referencing the 918 and the 911 when comparing a rear engine line and a mid engine line. It should be the 911 and the cayman.
I used it in the context that theres no advantage to moving the engine farther toward the back, it only shifts the weight where you dont want it. In this case, its just a gimick to say they have an 'all new' Corvette redesign. To me anyway, its like buying the newest model car because they put newly designed headlites on it.
I used it in the context that theres no advantage to moving the engine farther toward the back, it only shifts the weight where you dont want it. In this case, its just a gimick to say they have an 'all new' Corvette redesign. To me anyway, its like buying the newest model car because they put newly designed headlites on it.
You are not the audience for this vehicle though... There are people who have to have latest, no matter what. Most upgrades are "gimicks"... but it is what buyers want... something new, something someone else doesn't have. In the Corvette world.... a mid-engine car would be a standout and buyers will flock to have it. (buyers would be people with the disposable income and an interest in Corvettes).
As to the mid-engine Corvette, it doesn't matter to me if they make it or not, I would never be able to buy one unless I won the lottery.
