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550 hp 5.3 for $3K interested? by GADJet
Started on: 06-29-2014 12:57 AM
Replies: 52 (2232 views)
Last post by: GADJet on 06-11-2018 04:34 PM
GADJet
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Report this Post06-29-2014 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GADJetSend a Private Message to GADJetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I was looking around the other day for a way to increase the performance for my 1500 Silverado to help me lug around my camper and ran across this.

http://www.hotrod.com/techa...or_3252/viewall.html

Have any of you seen this? If so has any one actually tried it? I was wondering if this would be possible (limited space) to put into a Fiero. I mean wow. That would smoke a ls3 and for about half the cost. Just a thought.
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Report this Post06-29-2014 01:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jediperkSend a Private Message to jediperkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, it would probably fit (have to relocate the turbo) but I would be leery of a "Turbo from China". But hey, I'm leery of anything from China and looking forward to 3D printers getting rid of "made in china" in the not to distant future...

[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 06-29-2014).]

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Report this Post06-29-2014 01:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jediperk:

I'm leery of anything from China and looking forward to (made in China) 3D printers getting rid of "made in china" in the not to distant future...


...

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Report this Post06-29-2014 04:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It can be done about $800-$1200 cheaper if you are more resourceful.

Wastegate, BOV and boost controller was way overboard.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
10.91@133.1

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 06-29-2014).]

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Report this Post06-29-2014 07:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In a Fiero it would make more sense to start with an LS4....
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Report this Post06-29-2014 09:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

In a Fiero it would make more sense to start with an LS4....


Or a 3800. There's a few of them rolling around with > 550 HP. And the 3.8 leaves you a little more room in the engine bay.

In terms of cost to get a 550 HP engine in a Fiero, 3800 will be the cheapest, then the LS4, then the normal LSx engines.
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Report this Post06-29-2014 11:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you want it to last, get a V8. They will handle the horsepower on a daily basis.
550 hp out of a 3800, if possible, ain't going to last long.

Kevin
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Report this Post06-29-2014 11:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Or a 3800. There's a few of them rolling around with > 550 HP. And the 3.8 leaves you a little more room in the engine bay.

In terms of cost to get a 550 HP engine in a Fiero, 3800 will be the cheapest, then the LS4, then the normal LSx engines.


The engine in the Hot Rod article is the cast iron truck engine with the standard RWD bell housing configuration. To make the upgrade the OP posted more Fiero friendly (and to stay in line with the topic of the thread), I suggested the LS4 as an option due to the FWD bell housing and lighter weight of the aluminum block and heads.

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Report this Post06-29-2014 12:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
New Nissan Engine, 3 Cylinder with turbo makes 400 HP and only weights 88 lbs.

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Report this Post06-29-2014 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does it have any torque at 1500 rpm?
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Report this Post06-29-2014 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Does it have any torque at 1500 rpm?


Have no idea, peak torque rated at 280 ft. lbs. Coupled with the correct "stall speed converter" auto trans, it would be interesting.
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Report this Post06-29-2014 01:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
The engine in the Hot Rod article is the cast iron truck engine with the standard RWD bell housing configuration. To make the upgrade the OP posted more Fiero friendly (and to stay in line with the topic of the thread), I suggested the LS4 as an option due to the FWD bell housing and lighter weight of the aluminum block and heads.


Sure. The LS4 is a little lighter than the LM7. Cast iron LS blocks have been used too, with Archie's kit (that Dino build he was doing had a 4.8 swapped in). If you want a manual transmission, then a RWD LSx is easier then an LS4, though more costly.

OP asked if it's been done in a Fiero (yes it has), and if it would fit (yes it will). The LS4 will work too, and has been done with the standard LS4 turbo kit that the GP/Impala guys run to make 600 HP on the LS4. That kit is designed for the GP/Impala though, so needs some twiddling to fit in a Fiero. The one dratts is running, is in a stretched Murci replica, so it has a lot more room.

The LS4 still requires quite a bit of fabrication though, to use in its stock form.
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Report this Post06-29-2014 02:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:

If you want it to last, get a V8. They will handle the horsepower on a daily basis.
550 hp out of a 3800, if possible, ain't going to last long.

Kevin


Eh? 550 hp out of a 3800 is not that hard, and can be done reliably.

You can do it with an Ecotec, too. Just because it's not common, doesn't mean it's not reliable. Most people just don't care if they're making 250 HP or 550 HP though.
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Report this Post06-29-2014 02:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would imagine that Nissan motor is pretty gutless below 2500 rpm so it probably wouldn't work very well with a manual transmission. I know I am probably old school but I wouldn't consider owning a sports car with an automatic transmission.
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Report this Post06-29-2014 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Eh? 550 hp out of a 3800 is not that hard, and can be done reliably.

You can do it with an Ecotec, too. Just because it's not common, doesn't mean it's not reliable. Most people just don't care if they're making 250 HP or 550 HP though.


550 may be possible, may possibly be reliable too if you don't get into it often and back out quick, but no way it is going to hold up to 550hp on a constant/regular basis.

Kevin
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Report this Post06-29-2014 03:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

I would imagine that Nissan motor is pretty gutless below 2500 rpm so it probably wouldn't work very well with a manual transmission. I know I am probably old school but I wouldn't consider owning a sports car with an automatic transmission.


You'd change your mind if it were a Tiptronic 6spd coupled to that engine with correct stall speed converter. Of course this is dreaming, but it's not unthinkable. The beauty of the package is that is should put weight distribution near a 50/50 target, the Fiero would be less likely to a rear end snap around when pushed extremely hard.
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Report this Post06-29-2014 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:


550 may be possible, may possibly be reliable too if you don't get into it often and back out quick, but no way it is going to hold up to 550hp on a constant/regular basis.

Kevin


Yeah, there's a reason top fuel dragsters have to change bearings after every couple of passes down the track. But you're not going to be driving any street car around at it's peak HP point for very long, regardless of what engine is in it.

And yes, the 3800s are holding up to 500+ HP on a regular basis. They're making that HP at close to 6000 RPM, not at 3000. When the car is already moving at 30 MPH, there isn't much in the way of shock load. It's simply a matter of the torque curve versus gear ratios, traction, and vehicle weight. The Fiero is pretty light, so you don't need a lot of torque to get it moving quickly. Street tires (and the streets they spend most of their time on) aren't typically very sticky, either.
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Report this Post06-29-2014 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:
You'd change your mind if it were a Tiptronic 6spd coupled to that engine with correct stall speed converter. Of course this is dreaming, but it's not unthinkable. The beauty of the package is that is should put weight distribution near a 50/50 target, the Fiero would be less likely to a rear end snap around when pushed extremely hard.


Eh, the right manual would be fine too. There's a reason Hondas tend to have high gear ratios in their transmissions. And why the 84 had the "performance" gearbox and the "economy" gearbox. If that Nissan engine is making around 120 ft-lbs at less than 2500 RPM, it's plenty enough to get the Fiero started moving, and with the rev limit on it, I'm betting first gear will probably last to 40 MPH or more, with the Isuzu 5 speed.
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Report this Post06-29-2014 04:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes you are probably right Dobey, I stand corrected but I will never be able to verify it because I will never be able to afford what that motor probably costs, I love the light weight though
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Report this Post06-29-2014 06:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

Yes you are probably right Dobey, I stand corrected but I will never be able to verify it because I will never be able to afford what that motor probably costs, I love the light weight though


Find someone selling a Civic/del Sol/Integra with a B-series engine and a turbo that makes ~300 HP and test drive it.

It's not the same feeling of having 500 ft-lbs of torque at 2500 throwing you back in the seat or picking the front wheels off the ground, but a solid launch and shifting at 8000+ RPM is quite fun.
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Report this Post06-30-2014 09:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jediperk:

Yeah, it would probably fit (have to relocate the turbo) but I would be leery of a "Turbo from China". But hey, I'm leery of anything from China and looking forward to 3D printers getting rid of "made in china" in the not to distant future...



What about the 3D printers made in China?

 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:
550 may be possible, may possibly be reliable too if you don't get into it often and back out quick, but no way it is going to hold up to 550hp on a constant/regular basis.

Kevin


Do you use 550 HP on a constant basis?
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Report this Post06-30-2014 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dobey has anyone put that B series engine in a Fiero?
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Report this Post06-30-2014 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Do you use 550 HP on a constant basis?


No, but if I did I would not be relying on a V6 to do it for any length of time.

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Report this Post06-30-2014 02:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Lambo nut

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quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Yeah, there's a reason top fuel dragsters have to change bearings after every couple of passes down the track.


And they are V8's, just think what would happen to a V6 trying to reach that horsepo.....Oh wait,

Kevin
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Report this Post06-30-2014 04:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:


And they are V8's, just think what would happen to a V6 trying to reach that horsepo.....Oh wait,

Kevin


Well, I would certainly love to see a V6 making 6000 HP. But there are plenty of V6es making 700 HP and actually running reliably at their peaks. Just look at the Indy Lights series.

There are also plenty of 4 cylinder engine cars in the wild making 500+ HP reliably. Cylinder count has nothing to do with the strength of the engine. The strength and reliability of an engine is determined by the design and materials used to build it. A 50 year old 2 bolt main SBC is not going to be as reliable at 500 HP, as a 10 year old 3800 V6 is.


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Report this Post06-30-2014 04:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

Dobey has anyone put that B series engine in a Fiero?


I don't think so. It turns the wrong way and is way too much work to get it working right. A K-series would be a much better choice for a Honda engine to swap into a Fiero if you wanted to go that route.
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Report this Post06-30-2014 05:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lateFormulaSend a Private Message to lateFormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That picture of the Nissan 3 cylinder engine is interesting. In that picture I cannot discern any parting line where the block meets the head. From the picture it almost appears that there is not a separate head on that engine - the head is integral with the block.
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Report this Post07-01-2014 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


A 50 year old 2 bolt main SBC is not going to be as reliable at 500 HP, as a 10 year old 3800 V6 is.



Surely you are not serious.

Kevin

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Report this Post07-01-2014 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lateFormula:

That picture of the Nissan 3 cylinder engine is interesting. In that picture I cannot discern any parting line where the block meets the head. From the picture it almost appears that there is not a separate head on that engine - the head is integral with the block.


See black arrows in picture, there are 2 major casting parting lines on the engine:



Side note regarding a 2 bolt main SBC not being able to reliably handle 500 HP, well that just wrong, plenty of people have done it with high miles on their cars. But you don't have to take my work for it, just listen to this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py6JpkFGiFk

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-01-2014).]

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Report this Post07-01-2014 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROPHREKSend a Private Message to FIEROPHREKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
On a side note. The 2 bolt main SBC is actually a better choice than the 4 bolt block. They have these great little inventions called splayed main caps. What you do is take a 2 bolt block have it machined and tapped to accept the 4 bolt splayed cap and viola , a stronger than a 4 bolt block!



This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

------------------

ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

12.3 is faster than a 13.2

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Report this Post07-01-2014 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:
Side note regarding a 2 bolt main SBC not being able to reliably handle 500 HP, well that just wrong, plenty of people have done it with high miles on their cars. But you don't have to take my work for it, just listen to this guy:


Didn't say it couldn't be reliable. Just said the stock 2 bolt is less reliable than a stock 3800 Series II/III for making 500 HP. It's also easier and cheaper to get 500 HP reliably out of a 3800.
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Report this Post07-01-2014 10:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by FIEROPHREK:
On a side note. The 2 bolt main SBC is actually a better choice than the 4 bolt block. They have these great little inventions called splayed main caps. What you do is take a 2 bolt block have it machined and tapped to accept the 4 bolt splayed cap and viola , a stronger than a 4 bolt block!


In which case you no longer have a 2 bolt main SBC. You have a 4 bolt SBC which you've spent an extra $1000 on so it can be a 4 bolt.

Something else you could do is just buy an LSx, which are much stronger than the first gen SBCs anyway, and you won't have to spend $1000 to machine it to add extra security to the main caps, since they're 6 bolt already. Just get a Gen IV block instead of a Gen III, as the Gen IV are much better at evacuating crankcase pressure, without extra machining.
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Report this Post07-01-2014 11:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There also appears to be a casting line at the 4:30 o'clock position on the picture showing the toothed belt drive.
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Report this Post07-02-2014 06:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Just get a Gen IV block instead of a Gen III, as the Gen IV are much better at evacuating crankcase pressure, without extra machining.


I would start with a Gen IV engine for the stronger rods as well.
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Report this Post07-02-2014 09:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

There also appears to be a casting line at the 4:30 o'clock position on the picture showing the toothed belt drive.


4:30 would be two positions on a clock (4 and 6), but if you're talking about the smaller cog at the bottom outside of the engine, that's an external accessory; the oil pump, as it's a dry sump engine.
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Report this Post07-02-2014 09:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


I would start with a Gen IV engine for the stronger rods as well.


And better heads, more accurate timing, etc… Or if you've got the money, Gen V, which is even better.
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Report this Post07-02-2014 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

I don't think so. It turns the wrong way and is way too much work to get it working right.


Why do people always harp on this? Ever had a Civic go backwards when you put it in 1st and let the clutch out?

CCW rotation is a non-issue.
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Report this Post07-02-2014 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Why do people always harp on this? Ever had a Civic go backwards when you put it in 1st and let the clutch out?

CCW rotation is a non-issue.


Because it's a crapload more fabrication work, especially when the transmission has solid rods for shift linkages. The CCW itself isn't an issue. But all the additional crap one has to deal with to make the engine fit right in a Fiero, is an issue. You could use the automatic to make life a little easier if you really wanted to do it.

Or you can build an adapter plate, convert it to normal CW rotation, and use a standard GM transmission that's not matched as nicely to the engine's power band.

But if you really want to throw a Honda engine in a Fiero, then the K series is going to be a much easier swap to do, it's going to make more power, and you can get a nice 6 speed to go along with it. And you can probably do a K series for about the same cost as a B or H would be.
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olejoedad
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Report this Post07-02-2014 10:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:


4:30 would be two positions on a clock (4 and 6), but if you're talking about the smaller cog at the bottom outside of the engine, that's an external accessory; the oil pump, as it's a dry sump engine.


4:30 would refer to 1/2 way between 4 and 5. On the large goldtone sprocket on top.
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Will
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Report this Post07-04-2014 10:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Because it's a crapload more fabrication work, especially when the transmission has solid rods for shift linkages. The CCW itself isn't an issue. But all the additional crap one has to deal with to make the engine fit right in a Fiero, is an issue. You could use the automatic to make life a little easier if you really wanted to do it.

Or you can build an adapter plate, convert it to normal CW rotation, and use a standard GM transmission that's not matched as nicely to the engine's power band.

But if you really want to throw a Honda engine in a Fiero, then the K series is going to be a much easier swap to do, it's going to make more power, and you can get a nice 6 speed to go along with it. And you can probably do a K series for about the same cost as a B or H would be.


F23 and F40 require new trans mounts and new shift linkage. F40 requires new axles. Installing a Honda powertrain, B or K series, is not any harder from a fabrication standpoint than some of the other engine swaps... like a 5.3/F40 combo. The fact that the pulleys are on the opposite end isn't relevant.

Yes, I agree that the K series is a far more potent engine to install in anything than the B series.
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