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A.J. Foyt 1996 Buick Stage Ii Indy V6 by SuperchargedV6
Started on: 06-11-2014 02:48 PM
Replies: 12 (648 views)
Last post by: dobey on 06-15-2014 09:12 PM
SuperchargedV6
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Report this Post06-11-2014 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SuperchargedV6Click Here to Email SuperchargedV6Send a Private Message to SuperchargedV6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would love to see this in a Fiero. I know these guys and it is a good engine. Rick B

http://www.bestrex.com/1996...s-Ohio-44130/4878290
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Jason88Notchie
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Report this Post06-11-2014 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jason88NotchieClick Here to Email Jason88NotchieSend a Private Message to Jason88NotchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
10000, ouch. I would feel like I'm putting an egg in my car!
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R Runner
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Report this Post06-11-2014 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Personally I think $10,000 is a good price for an engine like this. I wonder what the dyno sheet looks like...
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jsmorter
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Report this Post06-13-2014 05:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jsmorterClick Here to Email jsmorterSend a Private Message to jsmorterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
damn I need an engine for my 88 and it is only 10 miles from where I work. Will it bolt up to a front wheel drive trans?
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hyperv6
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Report this Post06-13-2014 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The reality is this engine is for an Indy Lights car and will not work in a Fiero.

The transaxle will not hold up and the fact the engine is made to work on methanol is another issue.

The engine was made for the Road and speedways designed for running flat out running. To make it work in a street car would take a lot of work and a lot of expensive parts that are so very hard to find if not would have to be fabricated.

To do an engine you would be better off looking for an old Nascar V6 from the 80's and working from that.

I would recommend looking at the old Dingman Bro GTO Fiero and see the engine they had in it. They used a Hewland gear box and the engine was north and south but that style GTO engine would even be easier to put on the street.

This would be a great engine if you were restoring a Indy lights car.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-13-2014).]

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dobey
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Report this Post06-13-2014 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

The reality is this engine is for an Indy Lights car and will not work in a Fiero.

The transaxle will not hold up and the fact the engine is made to work on methanol is another issue.

The engine was made for the Road and speedways designed for running flat out running. To make it work in a street car would take a lot of work and a lot of expensive parts that are so very hard to find if not would have to be fabricated.

To do an engine you would be better off looking for an old Nascar V6 from the 80's and working from that.

I would recommend looking at the old Dingman Bro GTO Fiero and see the engine they had in it. They used a Hewland gear box and the engine was north and south but that style GTO engine would even be easier to put on the street.

This would be a great engine if you were restoring a Indy lights car.



The methanol isn't really a problem. It's certainly expensive if you want to buy methanol for a street car and drive it around town. You're not going to get great MPG out of it, that's for sure. You could run ethanol though, and it would be a bit cheaper.

I don't think the transaxle is going to be a huge issue either. Like you said, they're designed for Indy Lights cars. Those cars weigh about 1500-1600 lbs soaking wet with a driver. They're also built to rev out high in the RPMs. Their peak torque is right around 300 ft-lbs at about 8000 RPM, even though they make about 600-700 HP up in the 10000 RPM range. The G6 F40 wouldn't be a bad match for one, and people are running a lot more torque through the F40 and F23, or the 4t65e auto, than this engine makes.

But the engine isn't built for longevity either. In a Fiero, that weighs almost twice as much as the car it was designed for, with a lot more stop and go traffic, you'll be lucky to get 500 miles out of it.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post06-14-2014 03:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


The methanol isn't really a problem. It's certainly expensive if you want to buy methanol for a street car and drive it around town. You're not going to get great MPG out of it, that's for sure. You could run ethanol though, and it would be a bit cheaper.

I don't think the transaxle is going to be a huge issue either. Like you said, they're designed for Indy Lights cars. Those cars weigh about 1500-1600 lbs soaking wet with a driver. They're also built to rev out high in the RPMs. Their peak torque is right around 300 ft-lbs at about 8000 RPM, even though they make about 600-700 HP up in the 10000 RPM range. The G6 F40 wouldn't be a bad match for one, and people are running a lot more torque through the F40 and F23, or the 4t65e auto, than this engine makes.

But the engine isn't built for longevity either. In a Fiero, that weighs almost twice as much as the car it was designed for, with a lot more stop and go traffic, you'll be lucky to get 500 miles out of it.


I think you are missing the point here. The meth is not ethanol or even a gas blend this is a full on racing methanol fuel that is made for the Indy Series. The engine is built to use it and tuned to use it. This is not something that was ever intended for the street.

Second this engine make more torque than any GM trans axle would ever conceive of. Odds are the axles would go first or the CV joints as nothing on the street was intended for this type of conditions. It is not the weight of the car but the Torque of the engine and the sticky slicks they used that puts the stress on the drive train.

As for life it would be less than most street engines but you also would not be running it flat our lap after lap. These engines were pretty durable for the lights series as they were made to control cost and reduce rebuilds. This is not an Indy engine but a lights series engine and there is s big difference with no Turbo here.

Like anything if you throw a lot of money at it this could be done but I see few people with the money that would even bother.

I could put a Allison V12 in a Fiat 500 with enough money and someone willing to do it. But finding someone with the money and will would be rare. Too many other rational projects that could be done for less.

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Report this Post06-14-2014 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wish I had the $$$ for that, well worth it considering the build cost. Thanks for the share
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Report this Post06-15-2014 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for project34Send a Private Message to project34Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
...peak torque is....at about 8000 RPM....

If reasonably accurate, that spec by itself strongly suggests this engine would be a poor choice for a street-driven Fiero: Off-the-line performance with that race-oriented engine in a street-driven Fiero likely would be quite sluggish, unless that engine has an unexpectedly, relatively flat torque curve (which I doubt it does).

A race-oriented engine --- however well-built --- whose torque peaks at "at about 8000 RPM", or anywhere near that, is not especially conducive to spirited off-the-line, or stoplight to-stoplight performance in a street-driven Fiero.
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dobey
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Report this Post06-15-2014 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
I think you are missing the point here. The meth is not ethanol or even a gas blend this is a full on racing methanol fuel that is made for the Indy Series. The engine is built to use it and tuned to use it. This is not something that was ever intended for the street.

Second this engine make more torque than any GM trans axle would ever conceive of. Odds are the axles would go first or the CV joints as nothing on the street was intended for this type of conditions. It is not the weight of the car but the Torque of the engine and the sticky slicks they used that puts the stress on the drive train.

As for life it would be less than most street engines but you also would not be running it flat our lap after lap. These engines were pretty durable for the lights series as they were made to control cost and reduce rebuilds. This is not an Indy engine but a lights series engine and there is s big difference with no Turbo here.

Like anything if you throw a lot of money at it this could be done but I see few people with the money that would even bother.

I could put a Allison V12 in a Fiat 500 with enough money and someone willing to do it. But finding someone with the money and will would be rare. Too many other rational projects that could be done for less.


I am not mistaken at all. Methanol is an alcohol. With slight changes to the engine, it can instead run on Ethanol (E100, not E85).

Of course the engine wasn't built for the street. It doesn't mean you can't get your 5 MPG and spend $20K to drive it 200 miles until you have to rebuilt it, though.

Secondly, no, the engine doesn't make more torque than any GM transaxle can handle. Claiming the amount of torque this engine makes as an argument against swapping it in a Fiero is silly. There are at least 50 Fieros driving around all over the US, with an LS3 V8 that makes 50 ft-lbs more torque than this engine does, and they do it at half the RPM of this engine. And they are all working pretty reliably mated to the F40 six speed manual. The torque this engine makes is not a problem at all. Indy cars don't need a lot of torque. It doesn't take that much power to start a 1500 lb car moving, It's designed to spend 3 hours running flat out at 12,000 RPM. You're certainly not going to be doing that in a Fiero though.

Nobody was asking if it was rational or not. Most of the swaps done on Fieros are not rational. The average Fiero is worth $1500. No swap that is going to cost $10K is rational. Rational would be getting rid of the car, and taking public transit or riding a bike. Cars are very rarely the rational choice.
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dobey
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Report this Post06-15-2014 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by project34:

If reasonably accurate, that spec by itself strongly suggests this engine would be a poor choice for a street-driven Fiero: Off-the-line performance with that race-oriented engine in a street-driven Fiero likely would be quite sluggish, unless that engine has an unexpectedly, relatively flat torque curve (which I doubt it does).

A race-oriented engine --- however well-built --- whose torque peaks at "at about 8000 RPM", or anywhere near that, is not especially conducive to spirited off-the-line, or stoplight to-stoplight performance in a street-driven Fiero.


Not at all. Just because the peak torque is at 8000 RPM doesn't mean it isn't making any torque at 2500 RPM. If it's making over 100 ft-lbs at 1800 RPM, and up to 200+ near 5000 RPM, then it will certainly be as fun as driving a stock Fiero GT, or a 3800 swapped Fiero (or more so, since you still can take it to 8000 RPM at a track day event or such). Heck, my poor del Sol only makes abotu 120 ft-lbs of torque, and hits that peak around 7500 RPM. It's not the fastest off the line, but it's certainly more than fun to drive, and is far from sluggish. With not too much work, the torque curve on the engine in my del Sol could be broadened.

I don't think this engine has a particularly flat torque curve, but I suspect it is very broad.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post06-15-2014 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


I am not mistaken at all. Methanol is an alcohol. With slight changes to the engine, it can instead run on Ethanol (E100, not E85).

Of course the engine wasn't built for the street. It doesn't mean you can't get your 5 MPG and spend $20K to drive it 200 miles until you have to rebuilt it, though.

Secondly, no, the engine doesn't make more torque than any GM transaxle can handle. Claiming the amount of torque this engine makes as an argument against swapping it in a Fiero is silly. There are at least 50 Fieros driving around all over the US, with an LS3 V8 that makes 50 ft-lbs more torque than this engine does, and they do it at half the RPM of this engine. And they are all working pretty reliably mated to the F40 six speed manual. The torque this engine makes is not a problem at all. Indy cars don't need a lot of torque. It doesn't take that much power to start a 1500 lb car moving, It's designed to spend 3 hours running flat out at 12,000 RPM. You're certainly not going to be doing that in a Fiero though.

Nobody was asking if it was rational or not. Most of the swaps done on Fieros are not rational. The average Fiero is worth $1500. No swap that is going to cost $10K is rational. Rational would be getting rid of the car, and taking public transit or riding a bike. Cars are very rarely the rational choice.


From what I read this is for sure not rational.

Just to note my LNF is at 315 FT LBS from just under 2000-5300 and would kill my trans axle if the tires hooked up. GM in my present car has so much engine management in it now to keep the transaxle alive. If I were able to open it up to have full power at the shift points it would see major gains but would die a fast death.

A lot of it has to do with how you drive how well it hooks up and how much torque. Seeing how this engine was enough to do major damage to drive line parts in a Indy lights car I would expect lesser parts to fair much worse under heavy use conditions.

Yes you can reconfigure the injection system for ethanol but it would adversely affect the power. The compression on these engine also is a factor.

It is a race engine and would not with out a lot of work be of much potential on the street without a lot of major retuning and adjustment.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-15-2014).]

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dobey
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Report this Post06-15-2014 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


From what I read this is for sure not rational.


Like I said, nothing about owning a Fiero, is rational.
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