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F40 Shift Cable Options by fieroguru
Started on: 05-30-2014 03:27 PM
Replies: 42 (2141 views)
Last post by: 2ndtime on 08-29-2015 06:58 PM
fieroguru
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Report this Post05-30-2014 03:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I am looking for a better F40 shift cable.

When I did my LS4/F40 swap, I used the common method of repurposing a Getrag Select cable for the F40 shift cable. Within 6 months I snapped this cable (new at install)) due to aggressive shifting. Additionally, I was experiencing some difficulty with the 2-3 upshift at WOT (7K RPM) which I believe was partially due to the cable buckling as it tried to fully extend. Lastly, I wasn’t real happy with the cable length – too long and didn’t follow the other cable as nicely as I thought it should. So I want something different…

Last week or so, Rodney posted about being interested in supplying some F40 shift cables in another thread, so we have been trading PM’s and sharing info about F40 shift cable options. The actual cable in the Getrag Select cable is 35% smaller in diameter than the Getrag Shift Cable and Isuzu Shift cables, so the Getrag & Isuzu Shift cables should be about 46% stronger.

To better understand how each of the current Fiero Shift cables would work with an F40, I mocked up a shifter and a F40 on the bench and started laying out the cables. I screwed the shifter to the bench parallel with the transmission bell housing to replicate the 2 needed bends in the cables. The shifter had the pin installed to center its motion on the select cable and the transmission still had its pin installed for N. Once that was done, I installed the Getrag Select cable for the F40 select cable to determine the needed cable route. Now it was time to mockup and measure the other cables using the process below:

• Install transmission ball end (taped to the smaller ball on the transmission)
• Install the cable into the shifter & center up the eyelet to the midpoint of the shifter housing
• Measure the bracket spacing between the two cables at the transmission
• Remove Shift cable from shifter, tape it to the Getrag Select cable so they follow the same route
• Measure how much longer the cable needs to be.

Based on this process the following has been determined. Length is the eyelet to ball end length, Range of Motion is how much movement the cable create, Bracket Spacing how far offset the two cables will be at the transmission.

code:

Cable Length Range of Bracket Comments
Motion Spacing
Getrag Select 73” 1 3/4” 1 ½” Too weak, too long, requires shifter fab
Getrag Shift 61 ½” 2 ½” 3” Needs to be 7 ½” longer (69”)
4 speed Shift 59 ¾” 2 ½” 4 1/8” Needs to be 9 ½” longer (69 ¼”)
Isuzu Shift 69” 2 ½” 1 ¼” Right length overall



From this mockup it this is what has been learned:

• F40 shift cable needs to be about 69” long to be the same length as the F40 select cable (Getrag Select Cable).
• None of the true Shift cables have the right transmission end, so the ends would need changed.
• The Isuzu is the right length and the cable bracket spacing at the transmission is the closest. Mounting bracket at the transmission will have to be a “clamp style” vs. current “clip style”.
• The Getrag Shift cable is too short in stock form, but can be extended to the needed length. The cable bracket spacing is about 3” and it too will need some type of “clamp style” bracket.
• The Muncie Shift cable, is too short, and even with it being extended, the bracket spacing is over 4”.

Making a new cable from the Getrag Shift cable will work, but it will take at least a couple of months for Rodney ‘s supplier to get these custom cables made.

Since the Isuzu cable is already the right length (Rodney has cables in stock), has the closest bracket spacing, and Rondey’s Isuzu (and Getrag) cables have a removable end on the transmission, I am thinking the Isuzu cable is the way to go.

As I look to expand my product lines and have to build a new shifter bracket for my own car, I will likely offer the F40 shifter cable bracket for whichever cable is determined to be the best. This will make it easier for people working on F40 swaps to use this new cable.

For the Archie F40 swaps who want to upgrade, I will likely make a cable sleeve extender for the shifter end (to correct for the modified cable mount). This would mean you could use this cable + my transmission shifter bracket and have a bolt-in retrofit to your current Archie setup.

So what do you think? Longer Getrag Shift cable, or Isuzu Shift Cable?


Isuzu Shift Cable Mockup Pictures:




Getrag Shift Cable Mockup Pictures:






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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-30-2014 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaClick Here to Email Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Good to know for any future need. My Archie setup has shifted and worked perfectly for over 4 yrs.

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Report this Post05-30-2014 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Either seems suitable but since the Isuzu is already the correct length and it has a swappable end, I'm not sure why you would consider pursuing the Getrag shift cable. For my own project car with a 3" wheel base stretch it appears as though the Getrag Select cable may be the only route for me.

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Report this Post05-30-2014 11:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I am looking for a better F40 shift cable.

...

For the Archie F40 swaps who want to upgrade, I will likely make a cable sleeve extender for the shifter end (to correct for the modified cable mount). This would mean you could use this cable + my transmission shifter bracket and have a bolt-in retrofit to your current Archie setup.



Nice write up, but for me personally my bottom line is I want a bolt-in upgrade for my current Archie setup. Thanks!!

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Archie
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Report this Post05-31-2014 12:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageClick Here to Email ArchieSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Consider that I have more than 70 6 speed swaps on the road. With all of them using the same shift cable mounting bracket. And with all of them having cables that attach directly to the 4 speed shifter with no modifications to the mounting points or adapters etc. On the 4 speed shifters, we do widen the gate travel to accomidate the extra gate needed but the cables attach to the shifter just like they do to a stock shifter with no modifications to the mount on the shifter & no adapters.

For all practical purposes, the cables I'm using now will fit any & all 6 speed kits that are using my parts.

If Rodney has good sense, he would adopt my mounting bracket spacing between the cable mounting at the transmission & the Balls on the shifter. If he did that he would have 70 potential customers tomorrow.

I used to buy Rodneys adjustable cables & modify them. Then Rodney had a falling out with the guy building his cables & he discontinued them. So I had to find my own cable maker who could do an adjustable cable with a larger cable than the ones I was getting from Rodney.

I would love to have Rodney making 6 speed cables because I'm sure he could sell them cheaper than I'm getting mine made for. But let's make one thing perfectly clear..... after 70 some kits being sold & on the road, I'm not changing my design to accommodate using some Fiero Isuzu cable or whatever.....

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

For the Archie F40 swaps who want to upgrade, I will likely make a cable sleeve extender for the shifter end (to correct for the modified cable mount). This would mean you could use this cable + my transmission shifter bracket and have a bolt-in retrofit to your current Archie setup.



Now I gotta ask...... Typically an "upgrade" means there was something wrong with the original product. I've got like 70 of these running around right now. How many cars do you have your "upgrade" on?

Archie

Edited to add.....P.S. I'm needing to order another dozen cables from my guy next week..... going to have to talk to Rodney tomorrow at the Dells to see if he's close to pulling the trigger or not.

A

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 05-31-2014).]

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jscott1
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Report this Post05-31-2014 12:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I don't know that there is anything "wrong" with the current 6-speed setup, but if there is an upgrade, (i.e. stronger cable) then I want it to be a bolt-on upgrade to the Archie system. My car hasn't been driven all that much but I have never experienced a shifting issue.

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Danyel
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Report this Post05-31-2014 01:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DanyelClick Here to visit Danyel's HomePageSend a Private Message to DanyelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hummmm I'm presently assembling all the needed parts to do my F40 swap.... bought from Rodney two Select Cables modified for the F40 and the rest of the gear from Archie (F40 cable bracket, Clutch, friction disk etc etc). Am I missing something here ??..... I am swapping over from a 4 speed so I just need to open the shifters gate and swap in the shifter assembly and bolt in the tranny and the hardware... Right??

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Report this Post05-31-2014 04:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Danyel:

Am I missing something here ??.....


As I understand the discussion, the current F40 shift cable of choice is a Getrag SELECT cable, which isn't as strong as a real shift cable. A handful of folks, (from more than 70) have broken the select cable, (being used as a shift cable) under aggressive shifting. The thread is about modifying a real shift cable to work with the F40.

I don't know that I need an upgrade but if one becomes available it would be nice to have.

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Report this Post05-31-2014 06:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I can't add much to this argument as I have really little to do with the 6 speeds. I hope all involved can discuss this politely and come to the best possible conclusion and then I will get some 6 speed shift cables made.

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All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
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Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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Danyel
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Report this Post05-31-2014 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DanyelClick Here to visit Danyel's HomePageSend a Private Message to DanyelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


As I understand the discussion, the current F40 shift cable of choice is a Getrag SELECT cable, which isn't as strong as a real shift cable. A handful of folks, (from more than 70) have broken the select cable, (being used as a shift cable) under aggressive shifting. The thread is about modifying a real shift cable to work with the F40.

I don't know that I need an upgrade but if one becomes available it would be nice to have.


I was getting the idea that the cables were not going to work properly... I was not aware that the cable broke under hard shifting. I will be following this thead and can be put on a list to buy the updated cable.... might be doing some aggressive shifting

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fieroguru
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Report this Post05-31-2014 09:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The whole purpose for this thread is because several of us DIY F40 installers who have used Rodney's Getrag Select Cable for the F40 Shift cable have broken the cable in short order (nothing against Rodney's cables, we are using them for something they were not designed for) and I would like to find a stronger shift cable alternative. In addition to us DIY F40 installers, at least 1 Archie F40 Shift cable as snapped in the same place... this tells me there is an issue. It was one of his earlier F40 swaps, so maybe his current F40 cables are better.

Now most of these failures have happened with people who drive their cars hard and have used their cars under various track conditions (3S/autocross/road race, circle track, 1/4 mile), so for the show & shine crowd there might not be an issue.

Here is where the Rodney Getrag Select cables (and the one Archie F40 shift cable) have failed (when used as F40 shift cables):


For it to be stronger, the inner wire diameter needs to be larger (like the actual shift cables). If Archie's current F40 shift cable has a larger wire diameter and he and Rodney can get that cable made and sold as individual parts, then I would be all for it. I have already told Rodney that I was interested in making my shifter bracket at the transmission match his stronger cable if he can supply one. However, if Archie's cable has the same inner cable diameter as the Getrag Select cable, then that isn't something I would be interested in and would look to have my own made.

I did not realize that the Archie interior shifters didn't have the cable mounting boss relocated (bad assumption on my part). This is good news for all involved as it would indicate that any F40 shift cable should be made to avoid relocating the cable mount at the interior shifter. For the DIY swaps with the relocated cable mount, I can make a sleeve spacer to take up the excess space so you don't have to buy another 4 speed shifter or extend the current one back out.

Secondary to the strength issue, the Getrag Select cable used in the F40 Shift position is too long for my personal tastes. It doesn't follow the other cable in a parallel path. This is purely an esthetic issue, but I am quite finicky about the visual look of my swaps and don't like the current cable separation that is visible in the engine bay. It is about 4" too long if you cut and relocate the sleeve mounting tab on the interior shifter. Maybe Archie's "adjustable"cable lessens this issue.



I pushed as much slack to the hidden part of the cable routing, but this is the portion I can not hide:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-31-2014).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post06-03-2014 06:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Any more feedback or suggestions?

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Report this Post06-03-2014 05:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cyrus88Send a Private Message to cyrus88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

If I had an F40, I would go here and have some made to my specs: push-pull.com

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Report this Post06-03-2014 06:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanyelClick Here to visit Danyel's HomePageSend a Private Message to DanyelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by cyrus88:

If I had an F40, I would go here and have some made to my specs: push-pull.com


Huuuuuum GURU do you think you could come up with the specs needed to have that manufacturer do the cables ?? I'd buy one for sure...
regards
Danyel

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fieroguru
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Report this Post06-03-2014 07:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by cyrus88:
If I had an F40, I would go here and have some made to my specs: push-pull.com


 
quote
Originally posted by Danyel:
Huuuuuum GURU do you think you could come up with the specs needed to have that manufacturer do the cables ?? I'd buy one for sure...


I have looked into it some and getting a new custom cable made by them isn't hard or complicated, but that would be more of a one-off and over time people would get confused on what cable to buy. You see this happening all the time with the F23 swap cables where I think there have been 3 different lengths suggested by those who have ordered from California Push-Pull...

What I am looking for is a stronger F40 shift cable that works where everyone will have easy/relatively low cost access to. Just go to a website (not-mine) and buy F40 shift/select cables that will be in stock and ready to ship.

Once the cables are ready, for those who don't want to fabricate the needed shift bracket to use these cables, I will supply it on my website.

In the next week or two I should have a new cable to check out and use to fabricate a new shifter bracket to replace the one in my LS4/F40 car.

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Danyel
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Report this Post06-03-2014 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanyelClick Here to visit Danyel's HomePageSend a Private Message to DanyelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks I'll follow this thread till completed .... I do have an V8Archie tranny bracket ... wonder if it will work with your cable?
regards
Danyel

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fieroguru
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Report this Post06-03-2014 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Danyel:
I do have an V8Archie tranny bracket ... wonder if it will work with your cable?


No, it won't.

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Report this Post06-03-2014 08:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanyelClick Here to visit Danyel's HomePageSend a Private Message to DanyelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


No, it won't.


ohhhhhh OK Thanks Guru ... I guess I will contact them personally and see if they can make one like the cable I already have but with beefier specs..... thank you for your insight
regards
Danyel

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Report this Post06-03-2014 10:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CarverTooClick Here to Email CarverTooSend a Private Message to CarverTooEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ah, that particular tranny looks very familiar! I recognize the tag/markings. Glad to see your working with it so soon.

Will your research also apply to the F23?

Good luck!

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Report this Post06-22-2014 02:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Significant progress has been made on the stronger shifter cable front. Rodney was able to send me an Isuzu cable and the proper F40 ball end, then I started fabbing up a prototype shift bracket that uses a Stock Getrag Select cable and a Rodney Dickman Isuzu Shift cable. The actual shifter used for mockup is a Getrag 5 speed shifter (I have a 4 speed shifter in route to verify fitment with it as well).

The cables are held in place with shaft collars that have had some machining done to them to fit the grooves/ribs of each cable.

Here is the prototype bracket:




The only unexpected challenge using the Isuzu cable was the angular pivot of the cable in Reverse and 6th gear... since the rod through the mounting bracket, the elevation of the shift cable is critical to avoid the rod rubbing the end of the housing. Here are a couple of pictures to show the issue:

Reverse (I can still push the rod up, so there is clearance to the housing - it even has clearance in the Neutral gate, before Reverse is selected):



6th Gear (I can push down on the rod, so there is clearance here as well):



The other unexpected thing with this test fit is that the 5 speed getrag shifter has sufficient room for all the gates of the F40. I didn't do any mods to the shifter and it will shift all 6 gears and Rev on the F40. Only thing it needs is a bolt on reverse lockout (and I am working on that).

I was hopeful that the new bracket and Isuzu cable would fit in my car w/o having to rework the cold air intake, and I am happy that it does fit.


Still a lot of work left to do, but everything looks very promising right now! Items left to do:
**Make/edit the cad drawings for the 5 shift bracket parts (so I can have them laser cut - I will machine the collars and welding in house),
**Verify the prototype bracket works with the 4 speed shifter (likely have to elongate the select travel of the shifter),
**Fabricate the welding fixture,
**Weld/paint the prototype bracket,
**Install the prototype bracket and Isuzu shift cable in my LS4/F40 car and beat the crap out of it,
**Design/fabricate the cable sleeve spacer for those of us relocated the shift cable boss on the shifter.

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Report this Post06-22-2014 07:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fierofreak00Click Here to Email Fierofreak00Send a Private Message to Fierofreak00Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Very interesting developments, I'm watching with great interest. -Jason

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Report this Post06-25-2014 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The 4 speed shifter arrived, so I could compare it to the 5 speed one. First observation is the 5 speed shifter is much stouter. The cable bracket for the shift cable is reinforced (4 speed shifter has the cables installed):



The 4 speed shifter with Rodney's cables and the prototype shifter bracket can select R-4 gears, but does not have enough "select" range of motion to grab 5/6 w/o modifying the shifter.

As close to engaging 5/6th as possible - the slot will need to be extended in this direction:



Now why the difference... I started by measuring the cable mounts on both shifters and they were the same:
Getrag Shift:


4 speed Shift:


Getrag Select (with an allen wrench in the alignment hole):


4 Speed Select:


Then I looked at the size of the slot and the length of the select lever. Both of these are larger on the 5 speed.

5 Speed slot - the slot is about 3 times the width of the bar:


4 Speed slot - the slot is less than 3 times the bar:


I didn't take a good picture of them, but the 5 speed select lever arm is 2.9" long (center pivot to center pivot) and the 4 speed one is 2.45"

So the 4 speed shifter would need to be modified to extend the slot and the 5 speed shifter would need a reverse lockout installed, but both could be made to work with this cable/shifter bracket setup.

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Report this Post06-28-2014 12:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Update on my to do list:
**Make/edit the cad drawings for the 5 shift bracket parts - DONE
**Verify the prototype bracket works with the 4 speed shifter - DONE
**Fabricate the welding fixture - DONE
**Weld/paint the prototype bracket - 50% done
**Install the prototype bracket and Isuzu shift cable in my LS4/F40 car and beat the crap out of it
**Design/fabricate the cable sleeve spacer for those of us relocated the shift cable boss on the shifter - DONE
**Send drawings to laser cutter for quoting - DONE (still able to revise final drawing if needed)
**Design/fabricate a reverse lockout for 5 speed shifter

Finished up the fixture for welding up the shifter bracket and welded it up:




Then I fabbed up the adjustable cable bracket for those of us who plan to reuse a DIY modified 4 speed shifter.





This one has a minimum distance of 1 3/16" and my shifter was modified 1 5/16". For those who need one that goes smaller than 1 3/16", I can remove more material from the jam nut.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-28-2014).]

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Report this Post06-28-2014 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lateFormulaSend a Private Message to lateFormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Guru I gotta believe you have already done this, but I have to ask anyways...

Have you looked at using the shifter from a G6 manual and simply modifying it so that it could be mounted to the Fiero console? Without knowing any better it seems like that would be a common sense starting point and a path of less resistance.

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Report this Post06-28-2014 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by lateFormula:

Guru I gotta believe you have already done this, but I have to ask anyways...

Have you looked at using the shifter from a G6 manual and simply modifying it so that it could be mounted to the Fiero console? Without knowing any better it seems like that would be a common sense starting point and a path of less resistance.


The G6 shifter (and all FWD shifters) has the cables attach to the front of the shifter not the rear.

My goal is to allow use of the F40 with a 5 speed shifter by drilling 1 hole... adapting a shifter doesn't get much easier than that. The cable spacer is just for us DIY guys who are already running a modified shifter.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-28-2014).]

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Report this Post07-05-2014 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The prototype shifter bracket has been painted and had stainless bolts added. It is ready for install:



The 5 speed shifter now has a reverse lockout. This reverse lockout is quite simple. A small "L" section of metal slides onto the select arm and is held in place by the shifter cable and clip. The other part bolts to the shifter via an existing hole. The spring applies pressure to the select lever, so you must "pull" the shifter over to select Reverse. The lock nut behind the spring is adjustable to fine tune when the spring makes contact with the select lever.

Shifter in 1st gear - spring is just touching the bracket on the select arm:


Shifter in Rev - spring is compressed:


Top side view:


So it would appear that a bone stock, unmodified, 5 speed shifter can be used with the F40... you just need to bolt on the reverse lockout setup.

I am hoping to find some time on Sunday to install the shifter, shift cable, and shifter bracket on my LS4/F40 car so I can start some durability testing and evaluate the shift quality with the stiffer cable (less prone to buckle on aggressive 3rd gear shifts). If I don't get to it on Sunday, I will most likely get it done on Monday evening.

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Fierofreak00
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Report this Post07-06-2014 11:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fierofreak00Click Here to Email Fierofreak00Send a Private Message to Fierofreak00Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looking forward to more updates, this is great! -Jason

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-07-2014 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The 5 speed shifter and Isuzu shift cable are installed. They work quite well and I am amazed at how first the upshift into 3rd is now! The gear spacing is closer (longer select lever) and it seems much easier to find 3rd gear. I haven't done a 7K RPM upshift yet, but should be able to before the week is out. I might even try to get it on video!

The only thing I want to fix is the rattle (Like change in your pocket) with the piece of angle bouncing around. I am going to try to get some washer shims and try to tighten it up. I could also weld it on, but I am trying to keep this think bolt on.

I had to trim a little off the bottom of the piece of angle so it would clear the mount bracket in the chassis. Here the shifter is installed:


Old shift bracket vs. new:



New bracket installed:


Since the heat shielding was different between the Isuzu and Getrag select cables, and my cables aren't within 20" of the exhaust, I removed the insulation for a simple functional look. Notice the cable run along side each other vs. one being 4" longer:


The other nice thing with this shifter bracket, I won't have to worry about snapping one of the c-clips free again!

I am quite pleased with the cable upgrade and the function of the 5 speed shifter.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-11-2014 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have been driving the car to/from work and other joy rides and really like the new shifter/cable/bracket setup. It feels like a completely different transmission. The gear spacing is tight, but the 2-3 shift just falls into place, and just feels right. The shifts feel less clunkier too. The detents feel softer as I go into each gear. I think using the select cable allowed the cable to flex slightly as the detent was depressed and made it "feel" harder. Now with the stiffer cable, I can pass through the detents with less effort. I suspect the stiffer cable provides for higher impact loads to depress the detent vs. the cable flexing and having to more slowly force them to depress.

I have some front suspension work to do on the car this weekend, but once its done I am going to try and get some video of some 2-3 upshifts.

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Report this Post07-11-2014 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Awesome work Fieroguru! As always, I'm impressed by your can-do approach and by your ability to take an idea and turn it into functioning part. Kudos.

Since I'd like to use a mechanical shift gate a-la Ferrari, it would be important to know if when using the F40 and the Isuzu shifter that there is enough space between each of the odd gear gates and each of the even gear gates to allow a functional shift pattern plate with defined gates for each gear. Does that make sense? My concern is that the actual gates in the plate will be too close together to allow separate slots for each gear.

I realize that a thinner shifter shaft could buy more space between the gates, as would installing the gate plate higher above the shifter pivot point, but for now I'd be curious what the spacing is between, say, first and third gear as measured at the centerline of the shifter shaft, at the height where the shaft protrudes out of the stock console. Similarly for reverse and 1st, 3rd and 5th, 2nd and 4th, and 4th and 6th. If it's too much to ask, then just say so and I'll figure it out later when I get to that point in my project.

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Report this Post07-11-2014 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


Thanks Bloozberry!

I will get you some dimensions in the morning, but I am pretty sure than none of the fiero shifters have enough side to side movement to allow a functioning gated shifter plate. Most who have used them (at stock center console elevation) were just for looks and the shifter never moved out of the neutral position. I can mock it up with a straight edge along the shifter in 1st, then shift to 3rd to see how much it slides over. If its more than 1/4 to 5/16" I would be shocked. I can also do the same for 1st to 2nd to show how much/little it moves at the stock shifter plate elevation.

FYI, the F40 does have an internal gated shifter. The thin rod slides in and out of this gated opening:

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post07-12-2014 07:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I am pretty sure than none of the fiero shifters have enough side to side movement to allow a functioning gated shifter plate.


I used the narrower stick from one of those EuroShifter's in my 308 kit, but fabricated my own gate and it's actually functional so I know it's possible with the Isuzu shifter and the Isuzu transmission combination. Again, the EuroShifter stick diameter is quite small compared to the stock Fiero shift stick and the elevation of the console in my 308 might be different than a stock Fiero.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-12-2014 08:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yours is quite a bit higher (2+") than the elevation of the stock shifter console. Since the F40 adds 1 additional gate to the same range of motion for the shifter, then your shifter console would need to be even taller, or the shifter shaft narrower (maybe use rectangular bar (like 1/4 x 5/8) vs. round shaft).

The top of the pivot housing extends quite a bit above the top of the shifter console, so the console must go higher to just have access to the shaft. Also at stock height, the side to side movement from 1st to 3rd is only 1/4" and 1st to 5th is only 1/2". This dimension would have to include the diameter of the shaft as well as the wall thickness of the separating gates. The movement from 3rd to 4nd is about 3/4".

The first couple of pictures show the approximate distance the pivot points are below the top of the shifter console.
The front/back pivot is only about 1" below:


The side to side pivot is at an angle. I the rear there is about 2 5/16" and the front is 3":



Now onto the range of motion pics...

This first one I placed the ruler along side the shifter when it was in 1st, then shifted to 3rd and measured the gap created (1/4"):


Keeping the ruler in the same spot, I then shifted to 5th and measured from 1st to 5th (1/2"):


The distance from 3rd to 4th is shown here (about 3/4"):


I even added a 2x4 to the top of the console - shifts the point of measurement up about 1 7/16" - and the 1st to 3rd dimension is just under 7/16", the 1st to 5th dimension is just over 13/16", and the 3rd to 4th dimension is 1 7/16" (this would have been more, but even with the measurement being on top of the 2x4, the pivot housing protrudes above the measurement plane with the shifter in 3rd).




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Bloozberry
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Report this Post07-12-2014 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for taking the time to measure those dimensions up. :thumbsup" I clearly see what the issue is, and realize now that the gates on the F40 must be physically closer together than they are on the 5-speed trannies especially since all of the F40's gears are reachable within the same range of stick movement. That will be the monkey wrench in the spokes for the idea to use a gated shift plate unless the shifter mechanism is redesigned to change the geometry. And yet I seem to remember that I've seen some photos of Amida's F355 interior which had very stock looking six speed (+ rev) Ferrari shift gates.

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mattwa
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Report this Post07-12-2014 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Great stuff!

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 08-11-2014).]

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Rodney
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Report this Post07-12-2014 05:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Thanks for taking the time to measure those dimensions up. :thumbsup" I clearly see what the issue is, and realize now that the gates on the F40 must be physically closer together than they are on the 5-speed trannies especially since all of the F40's gears are reachable within the same range of stick movement. That will be the monkey wrench in the spokes for the idea to use a gated shift plate unless the shifter mechanism is redesigned to change the geometry. And yet I seem to remember that I've seen some photos of Amida's F355 interior which had very stock looking six speed (+ rev) Ferrari shift gates.


I have the urge to make a shifter assembly that might work better for a gated shifter. What I need is the steel channel the shifter sits in. From the radio back past the shifter area maybe several inches. I've been looking for someone that is getting rid of a chassis and can cut that section out for me.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

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All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
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Report this Post07-12-2014 06:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:


I have the urge to make a shifter assembly that might work better for a gated shifter. What I need is the steel channel the shifter sits in. From the radio back past the shifter area maybe several inches. I've been looking for someone that is getting rid of a chassis and can cut that section out for me.


can you show on a drawing what you need? I have a frame headed to the scrap yard.

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Report this Post07-13-2014 08:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

To make the current shifter more suited to a functional gated shifter, you can section the OEM shifter housing to reduce the length of the everthing below the pivots, which will make the top side have more movement. I would start with taking 1/4" out of the shifter body upright and the inner pivoting part (that controls the select motion) and see how much better that makes it. If its not enough, then you can take 1/2" out pretty easily.



The shifter handle could also be sectioned on the bottom side, but the top portion would need to be reworked as well so that only the shifter shaft was visible from the top of the console area. I would just cut the shifter at the base of the rod to eliminate the portion that sticks above, then weld in the new (narrower) shifter shaft while extending it down past the pivot point.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-13-2014).]

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Report this Post08-15-2014 04:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Laser cut parts for the shifter bracket are in! Now I just need to order the shaft collars, machine them, and weld up some brackets.



It looks like I can offer these brackets for $95 shipped to the US and there would be a $30 surcharge to Canada.
Still working on the details for the reverse lockout, but it will likely be $45 shipped + Canada surcharge.


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Report this Post08-30-2014 05:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have all the needed parts/materials on hand for ten F40 shifters and reverse lockouts.

Today, I machined 5 of each of the split collars and welded up the first "production" version of the shifter. It is now installed in my LS4/F40 car and will remain there through LS Fest next weekend where it will get beat on repeatedly.

Shifter parts ready for welding:


Pretty crude welding fixture:




Shifter tack welded together:





Then I put it back in the fixture, welded it solid, then ground down some of the welds:



Installed:


I verified access to all gears, but I will take it for a test drive before removing it for painting.

These won't be available for purchase until after the LS Fest, but for those who are interested in the shifter and reverse lockout, please send me a PM so I can make sure to assemble enough of them.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-30-2014).]

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