Just dont call something 'nonsense' when known facts contradict your opinion. I do stuff myself that supposedly cant be done. ie/ painting basecoat/clearcoat finishes over lacquer primer. Every paint store tells me it will peel right off. Ive been doing it since urathane was invented and not one peeling yet. I did my own present car almost 10 years ago, daily driver in all weather and barely a chip anywhere. One of my SLs was painted almost18 years and was still a showcar with 250K on it.
And yet, I'm sure you tell them it's nonsense, as you've been doing it for years.
What I was calling nonsense was your fatalist attitude to the idea. We're talking about a Fiero, not your minivan, after all. One should expect a modicum of sense to be used, but I guess expecting that is just too much in the modern age. Having the rear window be removable, or modified to pop open similar to the sunroof, is probably not going to cause the OP to fall asleep at the wheel, or die of CO poisoning, or even get watery eyes. With a properly sealed and functioning exhaust system (including the cat), the fumes will be much less dangerous, even sitting behind the car with your face above the tail pipe. A fastback car without a spoiler installed might be a bit worse for having exhaust sucked up and over the decklid, and back into the car at the rear window, but I think you're being overly fatalist about the concept.
I had a removable rear window on one of my Fieros. Looked great, got a nice breeze coming from the back, and if you have ever been in a pickup with a slider rear window, you know the breeze is pretty nice. However, with the low pressure on the fiero over the rear deck, it would suck the exhaust in at speed, he exhaust smell was rather overwhelming, eyes would burn, would start coughing, not to mention I stank when I got to my destination, and often had a headache. I had the window sealed up.
[This message has been edited by Falcon Fiero (edited 04-23-2014).]
A roadster may not be as bad as the rear windowless Fiero. The negative pressure may be higher on the rear windowless coupe. I say this because I drove a Fiero about 100 feet with no rear window and that was enough to convince me that I would not want that modification. Noise, and heat from the engine would make it a lot less enjoyable than you would first imagine.
He lives in Canada, he could use the heat from the engine to warm the cabin! We don't even need a heater for more than a few weeks in Texas Didn't Skitime make a removable back window on his car?
And yet, I'm sure you tell them it's nonsense, as you've been doing it for years.
What I was calling nonsense was your fatalist attitude to the idea. We're talking about a Fiero, not your minivan, after all. One should expect a modicum of sense to be used, but I guess expecting that is just too much in the modern age. Having the rear window be removable, or modified to pop open similar to the sunroof, is probably not going to cause the OP to fall asleep at the wheel, or die of CO poisoning, or even get watery eyes. With a properly sealed and functioning exhaust system (including the cat), the fumes will be much less dangerous, even sitting behind the car with your face above the tail pipe. A fastback car without a spoiler installed might be a bit worse for having exhaust sucked up and over the decklid, and back into the car at the rear window, but I think you're being overly fatalist about the concept.
I dont tell them its nonsense. Just like here, I just point out Ive done that way with no problems and will continue. I do smile at them.
I give a fatalistic attitude because its proven to cause fatalities. Whether you do it or not is at your own risk. Im not the only person here who speaks from first hand experience. Your entitled to do or believe whatever you want. The problem is the way airflow goes over and around a vertical rear window on any vehicle. Nothing you can say will alter that fact. It will be effected in different degrees by the general shape and if that window is in the middle or at the rear too. A fiero might not get all the same effect as a station wagon, but its well known that air over the back of any Fiero moves forward from the rear towards the window. With the exhaust at the rear, its obvious that any fumes will go with the air. If theres no window...it goes right in the passenger compartment. Id rather be uncool with a window than dead from a crash when I nodded off.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 04-24-2014).]
Originally posted by rogergarrison: I give a fatalistic attitude because its proven to cause fatalities. Whether you do it or not is at your own risk. Im not the only person here who speaks from first hand experience. Your entitled to do or believe whatever you want.
Driving is incredibly dangerous. Anyone could run a red light and slam you into oncoming traffic or a telephone pole, your brakes could fail at any minute sending you careening across the median on the interstate, or the bacon and egg McMuffin you had for breakfast could clog your arteries and have you passed out at the wheel. Whether you drive or not is at your own risk. You're entitle to do or believe what you want. I guess you should be more fatalistic in every reply you make on this forum, because anything could kill you.
Just because some people have died doing something, doesn't mean everyone is going to. It has nothing to do with belief or entitlement (both of which are huge problems with people in this country). You're right, though. You're not the only person here speaking from experience. I was as well. All it takes is using common sense. Doesn't require dramatic fatalism. There's enough of that in the news already.
Pointing a loaded gun at your head dont kill you either. Sometimes it does. Doing it is stupid... Why take the risk ?
I don't know. That's why I'm killing myself. Make sure to avoid being killed by any of the dangers around my house, driving down the street, or just taking a walk.
Yes, in these times all the above is totally true. I guess asphyxiation is better than a lot of other ways to go. I dont go for walks or bike rides without a loaded gun. You dont even have to leave your family room....they break in while your there now.
Yes, in these times all the above is totally true. I guess asphyxiation is better than a lot of other ways to go. I dont go for walks or bike rides without a loaded gun. You dont even have to leave your family room....they break in while your there now.
Good luck with that. I live in an underground bunker that is hermetically sealed.
The rear window in a Honda Civic Del Sol rolls down. I'm not sure how hard it would be to build a system like this for the Fiero (or if it's even do-able as the window is tilted towards the engine bay).
Here's what the Del Sol's rear window system looks like outside of the car.
I like the idea of the power rear glass. I would put a sensor in to restrict use to when the T-tops are removed. This would ensure the correct air flow an make it unlikely that any backflow of exhaust could occur. Heat and noise could be addressed by some additional insulation on the trunk lid. The angle of the glass versus the angle of the firewall is irrelevant as a power retraction system doesn't need to be a straight line system. Keep the glass inside the cabin, don't try to have it extend into the engine bay.
I had a removable rear window on one of my Fieros. Looked great, got a nice breeze coming from the back, and if you have ever been in a pickup with a slider rear window, you know the breeze is pretty nice. However, with the low pressure on the fiero over the rear deck, it would suck the exhaust in at speed, he exhaust smell was rather overwhelming, eyes would burn, would start coughing, not to mention I stank when I got to my destination, and often had a headache. I had the window sealed up.
There you go Strappado; experience trumps conjecture.
My family's 1966 Dodge Polara 880 station wagon had a rear facing seat. It seemed like a great idea to have the rear window down into the tailgate, but even with all the other windows open, exhaust fumes would come in. Other manufacturers had air foils to wrap air around the back; I don't know if they were effective...
I've been in pick-ups with opening rear windows where dirt from the box would get sucked up into the cab.
Originally posted by Deabionni: The rear window in a Honda Civic Del Sol rolls down. I'm not sure how hard it would be to build a system like this for the Fiero (or if it's even do-able as the window is tilted towards the engine bay).
The del Sol's rear lid must be hinged from the roof, unlike the Fiero's. That's the main reason why you can't retract it into the engine bay. Nor can it be retracted into the cabin as shown in my first post in this thread... the angles are all wrong, not to mention that the rear window overhangs the engine bay by about 3 inches so it would first have to pop inwards from the bottom, then slide down into the area occupied by the ECM and glove box.
The del Sol's rear lid must be hinged from the roof, unlike the Fiero's. That's the main reason why you can't retract it into the engine bay. Nor can it be retracted into the cabin as shown in my first post in this thread... the angles are all wrong, not to mention that the rear window overhangs the engine bay by about 3 inches so it would first have to pop inwards from the bottom, then slide down into the area occupied by the ECM and glove box.
This is only correct if you use a stock "rigid" system. A hinged motor with tracks that contact that glass at a couple of points (like a garage door) would be used to account for the change of angle.
The del Sol's rear lid must be hinged from the roof, unlike the Fiero's. That's the main reason why you can't retract it into the engine bay. Nor can it be retracted into the cabin as shown in my first post in this thread... the angles are all wrong, not to mention that the rear window overhangs the engine bay by about 3 inches so it would first have to pop inwards from the bottom, then slide down into the area occupied by the ECM and glove box.
The del Sol's trunk is hinged at the body, just behind where the glass is located. Nothing is hinged at the roof. But the del Sol doesn't have an engine in the rear. If you remove the glass motor assembly from the car, the del Sol's cabin is open through to the trunk, just the same as removing the rear seats in most passenger cars will give you a big hole into the trunk. There's nothing particularly extravagant about the design of the del Sol. It just doesn't have a firewall to protect from the engine/exhaust heat, and the glass is totally straight. No curvature or angle to it at all.
The rake of the windshield and the relative elevation between the top of the windshield and top of the rear body work has a significant impact in the flow path air will take over the top of the rear body work.
I built the Roadster shown below and even with the recall weather strip installed and blocking off the the front 4" of the engine vents, there would still be a lot of 110+ degree air coming forward in the passenger compartment while driving. It was so bad that after a 30 minute drive on a 70 degree day, the entire backside of my t-shirt would be soaked with sweat.
I'm somewhat confused. I don't question your experience. No reason to lie, but your experience with your roadster is pretty much opposite to mine. Like I said I only noticed the warmth from the rear when I was stopped. When I was driving the air coming over the windshield pretty much kept the engine heat washed away. I can't explain this since I have experienced the wind batting the back of my head in other convertibles. My 55 Austin Healy was the same way, no wind hitting the back of my head. I drove it with the windshield in the down position all the time though which was about 5" high in a raked back position. Good looking roadster Fiero Guru!
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 04-25-2014).]
I'm somewhat confused. I don't question your experience. No reason to lie, but your experience with your roadster is pretty much opposite to mine. Like I said I only noticed the warmth from the rear when I was stopped. When I was driving the air coming over the windshield pretty much kept the engine heat washed away. I can't explain this since I have experienced the wind batting the back of my head in other convertibles. My 55 Austin Healy was the same way, no wind hitting the back of my head. I drove it with the windshield in the down position all the time though which was about 5" high in a raked back position. Good looking roadster Fiero Guru!
Post a side profile picture of your roadster. My guess is the elevation of the windshield and the rear body are much, much closer than what you get with a stock bodied roadster. The smaller the elevation difference between the two, the less the engine bay heat will flow into the passenger area.
It could also be with your body kit, they did a better job sealing off the engine bay from the firewall cap and they might have relocated/eliminated the engine decklid vents that allow the vast majority of the heat to escape right behind the driver. It could also be a function of the longer wheel base providing more distance from the engine and lowering the temp of the air that does make its way into the passenger area.
Your results with an extended wheel base replica roadster might not be the same as those from other mostly stock bodied Fieros due to all the differences listed above.
My convertible (I didn't have a bulky top like some conversions), had some excess heat coming into the passenger compartment when the windows were up. I installed the recall weatherstripping and that helped. With the windows and top down, I didn't have any issues with heat coming back into the compartment. FYI
Originally posted by dratts: I'm somewhat confused. I don't question your experience. No reason to lie, but your experience with your roadster is pretty much opposite to mine. Like I said I only noticed the warmth from the rear when I was stopped. When I was driving the air coming over the windshield pretty much kept the engine heat washed away. I can't explain this since I have experienced the wind batting the back of my head in other convertibles.
Are you talking about the Murcielago kit? Isn't it stretched quite a bit with the engine further from the firewall, as well? I know you've got a turbo LS4, but with the stretch, and the body kit (and the windshield being non-stock as well I think), it's going to be quite different from a stock FIero, or a convertible conversion on a stock Fiero.
I have three roadsters. One a 355 Ferrari rebody with a stock wheelbase, One a lambo rebody with an 11" stretch behind the firewall and a different windshield, and one that is a stock Fiero with no top. The Lambo is different enough that we shouldn't use it for a reference. The reason I get confused is that there are roadsters just like mine that have had a heat and exhaust issue different from mine. One of them didn't even have a windshield. I can't see how a car with no windshield or top could allow air to come forward. Doesn't make sense to me. All the air should be going the other direction. I do believe that a Fiero with the top and windows up would get air coming in with the back window out. In fact I wouldn't believe anything else.
My convertible (I didn't have a bulky top like some conversions), had some excess heat coming into the passenger compartment when the windows were up. I installed the recall weatherstripping and that helped. With the windows and top down, I didn't have any issues with heat coming back into the compartment. FYI
Originally posted by dratts: I do believe that a Fiero with the top and windows up would get air coming in with the back window out. In fact I wouldn't believe anything else.
I'd expect fastback to get more of that than a notchback, and a Fiero with the spoiler to get a little less than without, as it helps to prevent some air from flowing back up the decklid from the rear. And I've driven a fastback with a spoiler through torrential downpour for several hours straight, with the rear glass staying completely bone dry. So on that car, I'd also expect that having the rear glass able to be popped open, in the manner that skitime modified his car, would not result in any increase in exhaust fumes entering the car from the rear, as I get with the sunroof popped (and I do get some exhaust smell via the sunroof when it is popped).
Older wagons had an optional spoiler at the top that turned down to push the air back down to the ground, or had little curved wings on the sides that directed air from the sides across the window to disperse the fumes.
HOW MUCH effect im sure is do to the aerodynamics of each car model. Smart car is so different, I have no idea how the air goes around one. To me its pretty much an enclosed motorcycle. Something else that Im sure affects the fumes is where the exhaust exits...some are on the sides, some are on the back. The motorhome dont have any warnings on driving with any windows open and the exhaust exits out the side at least 8" past the body. I will say the rear back windows are the only ones that dont open...maybe purposely designed that way. Maybe thats the reason lots of people dont notice it on pickups, because the exhausts are generally on the sides. I do know that anything in the bed, like mentioned, does blow up to the front of the bed. Ive driven them with trash and leaves in the bed and they work to the front and just keep circling, so I imagine if you had an open window it would all fly in it. Prob an open tailgate has some effect too.
" Your vehicle’s exhaust contains carbon monoxide gas. With the tailgate open, airflow can pull exhaust gas into your vehicle’s interior and create a hazardous condition. If you must drive with the tailgate open, open all the windows and set the heating and cooling system as shown below. "
I think that is the key, driving with all the windows open allows airflow from the passenger compartment to flow from the windows into the passenger compartment and then with the rear window out it would just flow right out the back window keeping the passenger compartment safe from exhaust fumes, except when sitting at a light. our first Suburban had a tailgate with an electric drop down window and as long as the side windows were down as well we never had any trouble with funes, while it is a lot bigger vehicle and that would make a difference obviously. but my 67 firebird convertible also had a zippered back window that you could just unzip it and it would drop right into the convertible top boot and I never had any problems with fumes with that as long as the side windows were down.
now sitting at a light with the engine running that was a different story, but think about sitting at a light in any car with the side windows down and you are going to be sucking fumes. while the Fiero is unique in that the engine is in the back so the noise of the engine would be a problem and that may be a deciding factor in this kind of setup. but the exhaust tailpipes are still way in the back just like most other vehicles, some do have side exhaust and I would think that would be a bigger problem for something like this.
if you drive it with the rear window out one way to be sure for your own safety one thing you might want to try is put some air streamers attached to the inside of the car, say off the rear view mirror, overhead console, dashboard and and anyplace else you can think of like the rear window opening all the way around the openings of the rear window. then drive it with a passenger who can video the streamers direction of air flow. them we can all be sure one way or the other if this is just dangerous or safe or somewhere in between.
edit to add, the suburban's owners manual did say if you drove with the rear window open to open all the side windows to prevent exhaust gases from entering the passenger compartment, mostly at stop lights If I Remember right.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 04-27-2014).]
Most convertibles have a slanted back window that follows the roofline, so its not a problem to unzip the older ones, I did that myself all the time. The issue with CM fumes is a relatively flat, verticle rear glass, not a sloped one.
On your Suburban and most others, I say windows open stops the problem. NOW, reading in my Dodge Caravan manual, it says if you have to have the rear hatch open, you should CLOSE all other windows and turn the blower on full either in fresh air or AC mode...and not to use the recirculate mode to keep the fumes out... So it says if hatch window is open, all other should be closed.
Most convertibles have a slanted back window that follows the roofline, so its not a problem to unzip the older ones, I did that myself all the time. The issue with CM fumes is a relatively flat, verticle rear glass, not a sloped one.
On your Suburban and most others, I say windows open stops the problem. NOW, reading in my Dodge Caravan manual, it says if you have to have the rear hatch open, you should CLOSE all other windows and turn the blower on full either in fresh air or AC mode...and not to use the recirculate mode to keep the fumes out... So it says if hatch window is open, all other should be closed.
I think Dodge is trying to kill you! hell they have exploding tranys already in those Caravans,
I jest,
I just got another one, WTF is wrong with me I must have a death wish or something, well at least this ones was the right price, freeeeee, of course as with any vehicle I have ever bought, it needs a few things. the rear brakes are frozen so I had to have it flatbeded home. fun as hell getting it off, chained the rear end to a tree and told the tow truck driver, Punch it!.
Ive had a bunch of Caravans/ Voyagers/ T&Cs, and only had one with a bad tranny. all had near 200K. The bad one was that way when I bought it and the dealer agreed to fix it before I bought it.
Ive had a bunch of Caravans/ Voyagers/ T&Cs, and only had one with a bad tranny. all had near 200K. The bad one was that way when I bought it and the dealer agreed to fix it before I bought it.
was it one of the exploding ones or the trany just died, I had a hell of a time finding another one for that 3.8 one at a reasonable price, then that one blew out as well a year or so later, I really do like them, the multi usefulness of them and they are just the right seat height for me and Amanda to get in and out of, no jumping up to get into the like our big trucks and no having to climb up out of them like the Fiero.
was it one of the exploding ones or the trany just died, I had a hell of a time finding another one for that 3.8 one at a reasonable price, then that one blew out as well a year or so later, I really do like them, the multi usefulness of them and they are just the right seat height for me and Amanda to get in and out of, no jumping up to get into the like our big trucks and no having to climb up out of them like the Fiero.
Steve
My caravan is my all around useful car. I took out the rear seats and use it for camping with a tempurpedic bed and 42" lcd satellite tv. I haul stuff in it and use it when I get tired of everyone looking at me in my Lambo replica. I get out of the Lambo and into the Dodge and it's like I'm suddenly invisible.
Originally posted by dratts: My caravan is my all around useful car. I took out the rear seats and use it for camping with a tempurpedic bed and 42" lcd satellite tv. I haul stuff in it and use it when I get tired of everyone looking at me in my Lambo replica. I get out of the Lambo and into the Dodge and it's like I'm suddenly invisible.
Ayup, the wife says the same thing, about her being invisible when driving the caravan, she drives the Burb and people get out of her way, , she drives the Fiero and people say WTF is that, or I used to have one, or some other remark. But she still gets noticed. Drives the caravan and its like she is some soccer mom and no one sees her.
Didn't Skitime make a removable back window on his car?
So it says if hatch window is open, all other should be closed.
WTF is wrong with me 
