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Cold Idle ok - Warmed up dies idle or under load - unless tb unplugged by kraelo
Started on: 02-27-2014 04:44 PM
Replies: 74 (680 views)
Last post by: kraelo on 03-13-2014 07:09 PM
kraelo
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Report this Post02-27-2014 04:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cold Idle Ok - Warm Idle dead.. Unless TB unplugged

I just picked up this car a few days ago, it has a holley TB on it. 1987 V6 - Auto.

Car runs well cold at idle - Hesitates and wanted to die In gear.

When warmed up it doesn't idle - and I can feather it to keep it running and acts the same in gear.

When warmed up and idling I disconnected the 3 prong to the throttle body and it idles much better cold. - But still dies when put into gear.

I've tried looking up symptoms. I think I'm leaning towards a bad engine - it just doesn't know it yet.

Smoke is coming out of the exhaust and oil cap when revved....

Open to other suggestions to keep this thing alive until I can replace the engine?

------------------
Tiny but Mighty

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kraelo
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Report this Post02-27-2014 05:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update - Smoke is coming from air filter canister - I don't believe the recall has been done to relocate the pcv hose?

Called Dave of Jet City Fiero's and described my symptoms and he believes is the IAC.

Only a $20 part so I'm going to change that out and go from there.
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Report this Post02-27-2014 06:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
**FIXED**

Was the IAC. Now I'm tackling the white and occasional blue smoke.
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kraelo
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Report this Post02-27-2014 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Now I'm getting a check engine light, it wants to die all over again. Didn't have a light before. Just seems like it's running too rich.
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Gall757
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Report this Post02-27-2014 08:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You are making progress. What code is it?
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Macs86GT
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Report this Post02-27-2014 08:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Macs86GTSend a Private Message to Macs86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
did you clean the iac port and the throttle body with tb cleaner, and reset the computer? i think its pins 1/3 or something like that that will reset the computer puts it into a different mode. thats under the plate by the lighter, or just disconnect the battery for a few minutes. How much smoke are you getting , it may just be a bit of drip down after sitting that burns off when first started or condensation for the white smoke. The rich condition may be the throttle position switch is bad.

[This message has been edited by Macs86GT (edited 02-27-2014).]

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kraelo
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Report this Post02-27-2014 09:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

kraelo

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quote
Originally posted by Macs86GT:

did you clean the iac port and the throttle body with tb cleaner, and reset the computer? i think its pins 1/3 or something like that that will reset the computer puts it into a different mode. thats under the plate by the lighter, or just disconnect the battery for a few minutes. How much smoke are you getting , it may just be a bit of drip down after sitting that burns off when first started or condensation for the white smoke. The rich condition may be the throttle position switch is bad.



No I didn't clean it, or reset anything. I'm at work and only able to step away for minutes at a time to do things here and there.
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BrittB
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Report this Post02-28-2014 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BrittBSend a Private Message to BrittBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow, that's crazy! White smoke is usually steam and blue smoke is oil and black smoke usually means too rich. That looks like white smoke and the velocity it's coming out is not good and the only route for it to get there would be through the breather tube, could be a head gasket. If it looks blue in person the first thing I would do would be to do a compression test. Be sure to pull the fuse for the fuel pump first so you don't wash do the cylinders with gas. A low cylinder could indicate bad rings or bad valve seats. If the cylinders check good for compression then it could be valve seals.
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kraelo
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Report this Post02-28-2014 11:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The car has been sitting for almost a year. Im going to take apart the intake and do an oil change today. Smoke is coming out of the back valve cover not the front. I can take the oil filler cap off and no white smoke comes out.

When i get tot work I'll start updating from there. Blue smoke only happens under heavy throttle. I know the engine is worn, I just need it to run for a few months while I clean up cosmetics and shop for an engine swap.
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kraelo
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Report this Post02-28-2014 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As I'm diagnosing today, I'm also looking up parts for a 3.8 sc with hd auto trans swap.
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Report this Post02-28-2014 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Started it up - fired up without throttle (but not instantly). Usually I had to floor it or feather it like it's flooded.

Let it run for an hour without me touching it. Thermostat opened up (new part) saw water traveling from front to rear and back.

Went from cold 1100-1200 idle to 700-800 after warm.

Shut it down, started it up again (harder start this time, but still didn't need to use the throttle to coax it.)

Unhooked battery completely to reset ecu just now. I'll leave it for an hour or so until engine cools down and hook it back up and try this again.

Open to other suggestions?
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IanT720
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Report this Post02-28-2014 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by kraelo:

Started it up - fired up without throttle (but not instantly). Usually I had to floor it or feather it like it's flooded.

Let it run for an hour without me touching it. Thermostat opened up (new part) saw water traveling from front to rear and back.

Went from cold 1100-1200 idle to 700-800 after warm.

Shut it down, started it up again (harder start this time, but still didn't need to use the throttle to coax it.)

Unhooked battery completely to reset ecu just now. I'll leave it for an hour or so until engine cools down and hook it back up and try this again.

Open to other suggestions?


Wait so did you fix it? Hard start just replace the ICM, its going. SBC's and Fiero's go through em like crazy... Rich (white smoke, unburned) Is probably your CTS sensor, by the thermostat... mine ran like a pig till I swapped it. Also every try unplugging the MAP? Timing set? Forgot what you said you did try, just some more suggestions.

------------------
1987 Fiero GTX 3800 Turbo... My Build, ST3 Cam, Lowered, Wheels, and pics enjoy!http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

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kraelo
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Report this Post02-28-2014 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IanT720:


Wait so did you fix it? Hard start just replace the ICM, its going. SBC's and Fiero's go through em like crazy... Rich (white smoke, unburned) Is probably your CTS sensor, by the thermostat... mine ran like a pig till I swapped it. Also every try unplugging the MAP? Timing set? Forgot what you said you did try, just some more suggestions.



Appreciate the ideas, I'll do icm and cts right now. Says my cts is on the driver's side not by the thermostat? 2.8
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kraelo
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Report this Post02-28-2014 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
New ICM and Cap and Rotor. Letting it idle and it's still seems like it's hunting. When put into gear it isn't dying but it isn't warmed up yet either.

I'll report back in 15 and let you know where I'm at.
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kraelo
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Report this Post02-28-2014 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Anyone have a picture of where the CTS is located? I googled pictures and it's showing me a location on the driver's side?
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kraelo
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Report this Post02-28-2014 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Problem is back, smokes heavily (blue oil, when revved up then almost wants to die). It's not overheating, I'm leaning towards loss of compression and blow by in one of the cylinders by the firewall.

Anyone with suggestions on rebuild kit or cheap engine swap alternatives?
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quote
Originally posted by kraelo:

Problem is back, smokes heavily (blue oil, when revved up then almost wants to die). It's not overheating, I'm leaning towards loss of compression and blow by in one of the cylinders by the firewall.

Anyone with suggestions on rebuild kit or cheap engine swap alternatives?


define cheap?
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kraelo
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Report this Post03-01-2014 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hookdonspeed:


define cheap?


I am looking for a 95 camaro v6 3.4l right now, seeing prices around 450-650.

I read that is the easiest swap because it's almost a direct plug and play except for the starter.
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Report this Post03-02-2014 01:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LornesGTSend a Private Message to LornesGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That video makes no sense to me at all. With the position of that intake tube then nothing should be connected to the intake, at least nothing from the valve covers.

[This message has been edited by LornesGT (edited 03-02-2014).]

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kraelo
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Report this Post03-02-2014 01:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LornesGT:

That video makes no sense to me at all. With the position of that intake tube then nothing should be connected to the intake, at least nothing of the valve covers.



Breather hose from valve cover against firewall?
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Report this Post03-02-2014 07:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Macs86GTSend a Private Message to Macs86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wonder if that car still has the tube connected to the filter canister. That's about the only way i can think its getting some form of smoke into the intake hose.
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kraelo
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Report this Post03-02-2014 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have $700 to spend. Who wants to do a swap for me. Haha
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kraelo
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Report this Post03-03-2014 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Found a 1988 notchie I'm picking up today. Since I'm ripping engines out anyways, I'm going to swap my sound system and racing seats and GT parts over.

I'll make a thread as soon as I start dissassembly.
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kraelo
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Report this Post03-03-2014 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by kraelo:

Problem is back, smokes heavily (blue oil, when revved up then almost wants to die). It's not overheating, I'm leaning towards loss of compression and blow by in one of the cylinders by the firewall.

Anyone with suggestions on rebuild kit or cheap engine swap alternatives?


It's not overheating, fan kicks on and cools it down. I think it just has air bubbles right now. Going to drive around without thermostat for awhile.

It is still dying after warming up like the fuel mixture is getting richer the warmer it gets. And it won't idle anymore.
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Report this Post03-05-2014 02:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for armosSend a Private Message to armosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did you find out what the check engine code was before you cleared it?
If you suspect the mixture is getting rich as it warms up, try checking the coolant temperature sensor with a multimeter. This is the sensor on the passenger side of the lower intake manifold, just below the thermostat.

code:

30F 9600ohms
40F 7500ohms
70F 3400ohms
100F 1600ohms
130F 815ohms
160F 450ohms
180F 325ohms
200F 225ohms
220F 145ohms

[This message has been edited by armos (edited 03-05-2014).]

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kraelo
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Report this Post03-05-2014 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by armos:

Did you find out what the check engine code was before you cleared it?
If you suspect the mixture is getting rich as it warms up, try checking the coolant temperature sensor with a multimeter. This is the sensor on the passenger side of the lower intake manifold, just below the thermostat.

code:

30F 9600ohms
40F 7500ohms
70F 3400ohms
100F 1600ohms
130F 815ohms
160F 450ohms
180F 325ohms
200F 225ohms
220F 145ohms




Thank you very much for that info. I have a new sensor and haven't installed yet. I'm cleaning up my garage today so I can work on diagnostics. I'm hoping to just get 2.8 running temporarily. I did find a north star and tranny for a swap eventually.
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Report this Post03-06-2014 06:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for neverendingprojectClick Here to Email neverendingprojectSend a Private Message to neverendingprojectEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you want to use a scanner on it you can bring it over. You chose a heck of a first Fiero swap, I would recommend something else if you want it done quickly.

------------------
'84 2m4 Northstar 5 speed
'84 3800SCII sold
'86 GT-'92 3.4 TDC 5 speed(sold)

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kraelo
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Report this Post03-07-2014 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by neverendingproject:

If you want to use a scanner on it you can bring it over. You chose a heck of a first Fiero swap, I would recommend something else if you want it done quickly.



I don't need it done 'quickly' per se. I am a GM at a dealership and I can drive something else at any time.

Where you located?

Also - Anyone have a picture of a CTS? The one the shop gave me has an oval plug with 2 metal contacts inside and I believe the one on the block has a circular nipple looking thing?
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Report this Post03-07-2014 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Coolant temp sensor connector is badly corroded and I'm looking for a replacement.
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Report this Post03-07-2014 04:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
CTS fixed including new connector - ICM replaced - IAC replaced - New rotor and cap - new plugs and wires.

Now it's running and warming up. Let's see what happens.
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kraelo
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Report this Post03-07-2014 05:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Drove it to taco bell a few blocks away, died when I let foot off gas and press the brake. Feels like it has zero power and has blue smoke under heavy throttle.
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87_FieroGT
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Report this Post03-07-2014 06:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 87_FieroGTClick Here to Email 87_FieroGTSend a Private Message to 87_FieroGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The smoke coming from the air cleaner makes no sense. If memory serves me correctly, the pre-recall configuration used the pipe on the firewall with a hose to the air cleaner. The recall removed the hose, but left the metal tube, and capped off the port on the air cleaner and changed the intake hose to the throttle body (you have the recall version) and removed the weatherstrip on the engine cover. They also added a tube that ran directly from the rear valve cover to the intake tube. If there is something connecting the air cleaner to the motor other than the intake hose, it's not supposed to be there.

I would also take a look at the PCV valve. Possibly the PCV valve is plugged and the crankcase pressure has no where else to go.

Also, it seems like there is quite a bit of oil pooled in the throttle body in the video. My guess is the IAC passage is probably gunked up too. I'd also make sure all the vacuum line connections going to the throttle body are intact.

BTW, are you a member of Jet City Fiero?

------------------

1987 Pontiac Fiero GT, Silver, 5 Speed - "Ariana"
2 Corinthians 5: 17

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kraelo
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Report this Post03-07-2014 06:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for all that input and yes I am with jet city. I'll run through your checklist in a few and see what happens. I upped the idle screw so it purrs at 1100 warm. I want to see if that will help temporarily.
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kraelo
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Report this Post03-07-2014 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
New PCV valve - I'll start pulling the intake apart and cleaning.
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kraelo
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kraelo
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Report this Post03-07-2014 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 87_FieroGTClick Here to Email 87_FieroGTSend a Private Message to 87_FieroGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That hose is not supposed to be connected to the air cleaner. Here are a couple of shots from the recall notice depicting the correct set up.

I'd double check that the PCV routing is correct and intact. Seems like there's way too much pressure going through that hose. I can say when I had the valve covers off of my engine, I was amazed at how much sludge there was caked into the ducting leading to the PCV inside the valve cover itself. It was darn near plugged up. Only way to clear that would be to pull the cover off and clean it.



------------------

1987 Pontiac Fiero GT, Silver, 5 Speed - "Ariana"
2 Corinthians 5: 17

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kraelo
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Report this Post03-07-2014 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Should I remove that hose and block both ends of it? One on air cleaner and one on the metal pipe coming behind engine and firewall?
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kraelo
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Report this Post03-07-2014 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kraeloClick Here to Email kraeloSend a Private Message to kraeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
at least it idles - video of my car in general and why I need to put a capacitor in there for the sound system - if i can get it to stay running.
http://www.youtube.com/watc...83lns6VKxf_VJofWxtWQ

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