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I wanted to let you all know you have lied to my this entire time, fieros are junk! by cooguyfish
Started on: 12-23-2013 08:27 AM
Replies: 63 (2079 views)
Last post by: Neils88 on 12-29-2013 10:59 PM
cooguyfish
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Report this Post12-23-2013 08:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, so the title was more to just grab your attention, and I don't really feel that way. (Also, all my observations are based mostly on 87 and down. I've driven 88's, but not on a regular basis to compare them as much)

Here is what it really is, and why I have felt compelled to post this thread. I am currently 29, I have been on here since I was about 17. A substantial part of my car education started on this board, for which, I am thankful. However, I have seen so many people post on and on about how great these cars are and how well they corner and so on and so on. As I have gotten older and experienced more and more cars I have come to a more somber conclusion as to what fieros are, and what they are good for. So I have decided to post this because, 1) I hurt my back, and I can't really work on anything today, and 2) perhaps to start a discussion for anyone who has the grand ideas for fieros that are far fetched due to the limitations of the chassis itself.

Let's talk about fiero's as a Daily driver.

12 years ago, when I had my first fiero (87 GT auto, which I still have, it just has be disassembled for about 8-9 years now) they were reliable enough cars to DD, and I quite enjoyed mine for the 2 years I drove it. They are still cool looking cars, especially for how old they are. I think though at this point, now that they are much older, reliability has degraded to a point where I wouldn't tell someone who has to rely on it as a sole means of transportation to pick on up, every fiero I have messed with recently has been a cluster of small problems, with only a matter of time before something big goes out type deal. I still consider fieros a fun weekend toy however.

Merits still today as a DD;
Can still be reliable if it has been taken care of.
Very comfortable car to drive.
Somewhat fun to drive.
Somewhat easy to work on. (keyword, somewhat)
Styling is definitely still there.
They do good in snow with a careful driver.
Safe in a wreck (at least by 1980's standards)

Cons
Low slung means low visibility from other drivers (phrased differently, I have almost been hit driving a fiero so many times it's silly)
If not kept up and driven regularly, they are money pits that are down often.
Incredibly poor fuel economy most of the time. Sure, some dukes crack 35, but I've also seen them get 20 ish, and 2.8's are more or less the same, but worse.
Stock brakes are severely deficient in my opinion.

Fiero as a weekend toy

They are fun, feel like they corner well, I like the seating position, the correct tires are spinning, and the engine is behind you, were are off to a good start yes?

As I have gotten older, I have played around with many different cars. It has become very apparent to me as time went on, that it's very easy to tell fieros 87 down are parts bin compilations, and not as much ground up designs. I've been told over and over and over on this forum that fieros handle so much better than things like mustangs and camaros. I can actually say now that I have owned an 83 foxbody mustang, that I think it handles as well or better, and seems more predictable than a fiero does in the turns. I have also come to the conclusion that most people on here either haven't driven some of these other cars, or are just repeating what they have heard, or are in denial because of love of fieros. Sure, I believe an 88 would be better in turns than a foxbody, but over years and years I have seen people always make comments like "tell that fox to go out on a backroad against your 85 GT and show him what's up." Guess what, the fox will probably win, contrary to what you guys seem to think about front engine v8 cars.

So, what is a realistic description of how a fiero handles on back roads?

Initial understeer, decent tossability, if you push too hard the understeer turns to oversteer and so quickly you won't have time to correct it. The brakes are so weak that you have to be very careful how aggressively you approach a corner. Road feel isn't too bad, don't hit a bump during midcorner or you might be in the other lane, and driver confidence isn't great...

Yes, I've driven an 88 aggressively, and it's better but not enough to make me happy about it.

Yes, my 87 has an upgraded suspension, Konis, Eibachs, and swaybars. No, it didn't make enough of a difference for me to feel it was worth the money, yes, I know it could be dialed in better, we will talk more on it later.

Driver confidence? what's that? It's certainly not something I have ever associated with a fiero after the first time the back end came around on my in a turn after a small bump steer incident. Well, and all that understeer doesn't help. But the bottom line that I think haunts the fiero as a back road toy, is driver confidence and predictability. I know I have seen people honestly put up that driving a fiero fast takes skill and isn't easy. This is what they undoubtedly mean, if you can hold the car just right, on just the right course, you may get fast lap times but fieros are unforgiving beasts of cars, one mistake and you will find the wall, dirt, guardrail, whatever.

My travels to date have taken my into some very different cars over my life. I would like to think that by now I have driven more different cars than most people, but especially for a 29 year old guy.

Oh, you want a list? Sure, why not. Some are notable, some are not.
87 fiero GT auto
85 fiero GT 4 speed
88 fiero GT 5 speed
Duke fieros
95 caprice wagon LT1
so many saturn S series cars I can't even describe it to you (so 91-02 saturn SL2's and or SC2's)
83 mustang
04 mustang
01 corvette
79 datsun 280zx
87 nissan 300zx
89 BMW 325i
89 BMW 325ix
95 BMW 325i
01 BMW 330i sport
01 BMW 530i
13 subaru WRX STI

Those are cars I can think of off hand, I mean I've driven a lot more "normal" cars, cavaliers, saturn L-series, Impalas, you know, regular cars. I've driven other sports cars as well, but can't think of them off hand. The only reason saturns made that list is because of the relationship to fieros, that you may or may not even be aware of.

So, saturns. Saturn S-series cars are built on the same concept as the fiero. Steel space frame and plastic body panels. The twin cams 5 speeds are as quick as a fiero V6 5 speed, they get 30-40 MPG, they are SUBSTANTIALLY more confident in the turns, and can toss you out of the windshield with stopping power (compared to fieros). They tend to be fairly reliable but as they have gotten older they suffer the same condition as fieros, they are as safe also.

Bottom line, a saturn S car is superior to a fiero as a DD in everything but looks. It also shows how much of an improvement could have been made on the fiero chassis if they had put the same effort into it as they had the S-cars.

Most every car I have driven has either been comparable, or better than a fiero in the turns. The single biggest difference being that driver confidence thing I mentioned a few times. ALL the BMW's I have driven, 80's, 90', and the 01, have immense driver confidence about them. Even the 80's BMW, handles far better, brakes better, and feels so neutral with mild understeer that it would take one hell of a driver to make a fiero go as fast in the turns. I won't mention the 01, since it obviously has a lot of years development the fiero didn't, but lets just say the 01 can do things that fieros wouldn't even think of, take turns at speeds that a fiero would shudder thinking about, confidence is so high I have managed to get it loose at 90 MPH and still had no effort in correcting the line and getting the back behind me.

So, with all that background information and how I feel about things here are my final thoughts.

Fieros are great DD's, if reliable and well kept up.
Fieros are great drag cars, because of the traction and engine choices we have. (which is the fate mine will likely undergo).
Fieros have a great chassis that with enough redesign (and maybe a stretch) you could probably make a car that handles well, and stops good enough, but who knows on the driver confidence part.

Speaking of driver confidence, I can't stress that enough. "raw numbers" fieros may not be so bad, but if you are white knuckle, sweaty palms to get the times that I can from a BMW casually, then where is the fun in it?

Yes, if you didn't guess already, my love now extends to BMW's as my corner carvers. They aren't as expensive as you think, they tend to be very reliable, and they corner in a way I can't even describe to you. If you have the skills, the 00-06 body style (e46) pop up needing an engine from time to time under 1,000, engine = 500-1000. You now have a car that is amazing on a back road, and still pulls 26-30 MPG DD'ing it. Or you could get a 90's body style (e36), running and driving for 2000-3000 in good shape, and they are quite fun completely stock. LS1's are becoming popular swaps, and they are world class sports cars with a LS V8 in them.

These are my thoughts/findings/observations over the last 14 years of driving and based on all the different cars I've driven. I am still a GM guy at heart, which is why I salivate over the idea of taking an e46 and putting an LS/T56 in it

-Brandon

[This message has been edited by cooguyfish (edited 12-23-2013).]

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Report this Post12-23-2013 10:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My thoughts excatly.

If you like driving a fiero daily, and can manage an engine swap, its a good option as they are mildly reliable at that point and cheap to maintain. Comfort is still questionable (if you have high standards comfort is impossible to obtain in a fiero without big dollars) but in terms of a high performance car goes they are really economical vs the comfort factor at that point.

Handling in a fiero is a tricky question.. Tires seem to help fieros significantly and really level or give an advantage to a fiero over other 80s sports cars on similar tires in terms of autocross roadcourse racing. I would personally prefer a honda over a fiero when turning due to the driver skill requirement being slightly lower in terms of keeping your car out of a wall at 60mph.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TommyRockerClick Here to Email TommyRockerSend a Private Message to TommyRockerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would definitely agree that a stock Fiero is pushing development that is over 30 years old. Surprisingly, that mean's a 15 year old car will perform better.

If you buy a bone stock Fiero and expect it to perform like a newer, more expensive sports car, you are severely misguided. The Fiero was solid in the 80's, but.... Have you seen the **** that came out of the 80's? There are 3 main classes of Fiero owners, I think.

The people who cherish the perfect originals and are willing and able to put time and money into having a nice original.
The people who buy them seeing them as a blank canvas and have the skills (or money in some cases) to turn them into something else entirely.
The people who love the idea of a mid engined sports car that they can buy cheap, drive every day, and whip some more expensive cars for very little investment. These people are bound to be disappointed. It SOUNDS like that's how you started, and when you realized it wasn't reality, you weren't thrilled.

I'm about to buy my second Fiero (I DD a $900 '85 GT for a couple years, sold it earlier this year). This one is a rough roller. I'm going to cut it up, cram a longitudinal V8 into it with a Porsche transaxle, and replace the suspension with C5 uprights and brakes on custom control arms. Will is out perform a C7? No. But it'll sure be fun.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TheDigitalAlchemistClick Here to visit TheDigitalAlchemist's HomePageClick Here to Email TheDigitalAlchemistSend a Private Message to TheDigitalAlchemistEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My Fieros have all been more dependable than my other cars - used 80's cars and truck and the Tauru$$$.

The Mustang I recently drove felt ROCK SOLID, but I'd still prefer my Fiero.
Once ya replace the hoses and various pumps, it runs like a top. (smoothly for awhile, till something knocks it outta line, then it's messy)

This one will likely be my last one, and it's not something I like to often think about...
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Report this Post12-23-2013 10:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hell when did reality bite you in the ass?

I have a 85 I owned since new and I will be the first to tell you it is far from perfect. But then again most cars in the 80's leave a lot to be desired.

The Fiero is much like a MG or Triumph where it is sporty fun but not a McLaren P1 Killer. But what do you expect for a under funded developed car that did not cost much over $10K new.

Now to compare it to a BMW back then is also silly as for the amount you paid over the Fiero price it should handle better. But even today that BMW would lack in lap times to my HHR SS DD with the GM tune on it.

The Fiero is not the ultimate car and never will be. It is an affordable neat little car that is fun. You may have to work a little harder to extract the performance of a better car but that is part of the charm. I have lived with them as a daily driver but I was also in School and was living at home. It is not a DD for everyone nor are most 2 seat cars and that is why most never last long.

The same is said for the old muscle cars as they had a lot of power but going into a turn and stopping was a butt puckering deal. I had many a time I often wondered if my drum non powered brakes were going to stop in time when they faded. Again part of the charm of the error.

Yes you can up grade and modify any car into a killer but that is up to you or who ever owns the car.

The reality is many entry level cars today will out handle or out run the performance cars of the 80's and that just shows how far things have come. Too many people have never really ever driven a great handling car to the point where they understand what that is. Just going fast is not the key but going fast and it feeling like it is slow and easy is what great handling is all about on a back road.

As for your list I have driven a much larger and wider range of cars as you have listed and their is good and bad in all. The key is to keep in perspective what you want and expect out of each one. I am not a Porsche fan but having a lot of seat time in a 911 showed me how going fast can be made easy. Even this car has it's quirks but again that is part of the deal.

Even today the 3 series BMW pails to the new CTS that just came out and it is not even a V series car yet. Things are ever evolving and changing. Part of the old car hobby is the imperfections of each and ever car. This is what make most interesting. Even my old 63 Ford with full time power steering has the feel of not even being hooked up to the steering linkage. I have more steering feed back in a bumper car. Or the 1960 Bonneville I drove with a broken engine mount. It had no catch on the mount and let the engine flop over to only pull on the accelerator cable. Take a massive car with no power steering or brakes and it wanting to do 60 MPH with out touching the gas pedal. Just more of the past charm.

I would recommend taking a drive in a old Austin Healy or MG TC or TD and just see how these cars fair. These car interacted more with the driver and part of this was just what made them fun.

Back then everyone just guessed it for the most part with what they could afford. Today the MFG computer design and test cars to the point they are pretty much read even before they do the road testing. Then they dial them in even more once on the track or road. Companies even can re enact the Nurbugring on a shaker machine today and never have to turn a wheel.

So in the long and short of it yes the Fiero is flawed but so was nearly every other car. But also consider how cheap to buy and repair it is compared to other cars. You have to take the good and the bad no matter the make or model. Even the BMW's had issues like high cost of maintenance, rust and for some low resale values.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 12-23-2013).]

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Blacktree
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Report this Post12-23-2013 11:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cooguyfish:

So, saturns. Saturn S-series cars are built on the same concept as the fiero. Steel space frame and plastic body panels. The twin cams 5 speeds are as quick as a fiero V6 5 speed, they get 30-40 MPG, they are SUBSTANTIALLY more confident in the turns, and can toss you out of the windshield with stopping power (compared to fieros). They tend to be fairly reliable but as they have gotten older they suffer the same condition as fieros, they are as safe also.

Bottom line, a saturn S car is superior to a fiero as a DD in everything but looks. It also shows how much of an improvement could have been made on the fiero chassis if they had put the same effort into it as they had the S-cars.

I suppose in a stock-for-stock comparison, you may have something there. But my cars don't stay stock for very long.

I should also add that currently, my DD is a 2001 Saturn SL1. My '87 Fiero is my weekend toy.

The Saturn has the SOHC 4-cyl and a 5-speed manual transmission. I replaced the struts with Monroe SensaTracs, replaced all the suspension and sway bar bushings with new rubber, and put on a set of Kumho Ecsta tires. I also replaced the brake pads/shoes and rotors/drums. It still handles like a minivan. That's not say that it can't take a corner. But doing so takes nerves of steel. Because the car gives a lot of negative feedback. And the brakes are what I'd consider barely adequate.

The Fiero has a 3.4 V6 crate engine, with a rebuilt Getrag 5-speed, and '88 Fiero rear cradle/suspension/brake swap, with 11" brakes in front. It also has KYB shocks/struts, lots of polyurethane, Addco front sway bar, rod-end rear lateral links, etc. This car corners very well. I point the wheel and prod the "go pedal", and it just goes there... no muss, no fuss. And thanks to the custom brake setup, the car stops on a dime. After driving the Saturn for awhile, I have to remind myself to be easier on the brake pedal, because the Fiero's brakes are that much better.

To make a long story short, my Fiero is better than my Saturn in almost every way. But there are two categories in which the Saturn is better: fuel economy and creature comforts. And those two things are why the Saturn is the DD.

That said, I agree that Fieros are not very well suited to daily driving duties anymore. I had to come to that realization myself, a few years ago. Because for many years, my DD was a Fiero. But Fieros have gotten to the age where the owner has to decide if he/she is going to let the car fall apart, or fix it up. If you don't have the time or resources to fix it up, then you're going to have an old jalopy that requires constant maintenance. That's what happens when a car gets old... ANY car. You can't pick up a beat-up 25-year-old car, and expect it to hang with newer cars. And it isn't going to be reliable as a daily driver. It just ain't gonna happen... unless you go through the entire car and fix/upgrade everything. And unfortunately, most people don't have the time, resources, or inclination to do that.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-23-2013).]

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Toontown Fiero
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Report this Post12-23-2013 12:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Toontown FieroSend a Private Message to Toontown FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Lol. My computer from 1987 won't keep up with my computer from 2013. Weird.
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I FAR I
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Report this Post12-23-2013 12:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for I FAR ISend a Private Message to I FAR IEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow, that OP likes to bloviate!

[This message has been edited by I FAR I (edited 12-23-2013).]

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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post12-23-2013 01:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Totally agree with the OP. These are old, hobby cars that are fun to play with. People trying to compete against modern technology are pissing in the wind. Sure you can make one go fast, but so what? I saw a 1985 Hyundai Pony once with a turbocharged 350 SBC and it was running high tens. It was fast, but the rest of the car was still primitive and unreliable.

Calling a Fiero a sports car is a stretch. It looks like one, but doesn't really drive like one. It was marketed, designed, and sold as a commuter car that happened to look cool.
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cooguyfish
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Report this Post12-23-2013 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Toontown Fiero:

Lol. My computer from 1987 won't keep up with my computer from 2013. Weird.



 
quote
Originally posted by I FAR I:

Wow, that OP likes to bloviate!



Yeah, I think you guys missed the point, maybe because you weren't here during the days when people constantly tried to claim how much better fieros were then so many other cars. Or people who constantly claimed that just swapping in a 3800 S/C makes a fiero a world class super car. Fast, yes, world class, not so much.

Also, note that I did specifically bring up older cars like 80's BMWs as a comparison for a car that was built around the same timeframe. Sure maybe it was more new, but we aren't talking about new cars either now are we?

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Report this Post12-23-2013 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The issue is time and money.

Old cars in stock form are not going to be as good as today and cars costing $10's of thousands more are not going to have near as many compromises in their development and hardware. You get what you pay for,

Add to all this you can dump a lot of money in any car and make it better.

I have been at this for about 30 years with the Fiero and I have seen it come and go. While you can build some interesting cars most are never sorted out to the degree a new C7 is nor would I expect it. Along the way I always find people who think the best car there is generally is up to the best car they have ever driven.

The key is just enjoy the car no matter the good or the bad. I did not get into Fiero's to supplement my need to feel like I own a super car. I have it because it is a Pontiac and I enjoy it for being different. I bought it new as my first car and will always keep it. Other toys will share space in the garage and most will be faster and handle better but I like my car for what it is.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TommyRockerClick Here to Email TommyRockerSend a Private Message to TommyRockerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A similar vintage e30 cost double the Fiero. Soulfully one expect "double" the car?
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Report this Post12-23-2013 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stubby79Send a Private Message to Stubby79Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't presonally care if it handles poorly or is easily out performed by modern vehicles because Fieros just look sexier (GTs at least) than any other car made in the past 30 years (under $50k anyway). No other vhicles I've owned make me grin just walking up to 'em in the parking lot. None of the others make people look twice, either.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 01:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXGOODClick Here to visit TXGOOD's HomePageSend a Private Message to TXGOODEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I drive my 88GT as much as possible but I don`t do it for the cornering or the performance or lack of.
It may be a mental thing but I can fill the Fiero up for about 24.00 and if I put that much in my truck it barely gets off 1/4 of a tank.
It seems as though the Fiero gets better gas mileage even though my truck has a V-6 as well.
I like driving the Fiero just because it`s fun and also because of the big smile that comes over people`s faces when they say they haven`t seen one of these in a while.
At least one that is running.

[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 12-23-2013).]

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Report this Post12-23-2013 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fastblackSend a Private Message to fastblackEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My stock 87 GT 5-speed gets upper 20's (sometimes low 30's) for MPG's. It is also very reliable and would trust it for a cross country trip any day of the week. The things that do break on it are usually cheap fixes, which ironically enough is sometimes because of "parts bin" components. I also do realize that the car is 26 years old and most things are not meant to last forever. If you're going to compare a Fiero to Corvettes and BMW's (regardless of the year) at least give the Fiero some credit and use an example that isn't a POS.

Don't worry though, I was also disappointed when my Bonneville didn't waste that M5 on track day
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Report this Post12-23-2013 02:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GrantmanClick Here to Email GrantmanSend a Private Message to GrantmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What? you mean the Fiero I picked up for a few hundred dollars a couple years ago will never be a super car?? After putting in all new (stock) bushings, tie rods, shocks and struts plus a 1994 Camaro motor (and a delta 88 4 speed automatic) I don't have a state of the art car?? It won't hold a candle to my buddies BMW 3 series?
Seriously though, I do need a bigger motor to out gun my 1998 Jeep Grand cherokee with the 5.9. I'm sure a SC3.8 would do it but then it still won't handle like a corvette. My point is I think most people understand what they have. with enough money it can be made to run fast and corner hard and at that point with that much money a new better car can be bought. I'm not spending that kind of money for a newer sports car anymore than I'm putting that much money into the one I have to go really fast and corner really well. I've got a car I like the looks of and runs decent, that's the extent of my expectations. on the other hand if I wanted a true sports car and still had that 1971 Opel GT and put a bigger motor in that and upgraded the suspension.............. lol.

------------------
1986 Fiero GT Fastback 3.4Lpr with 4T60
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee with "big boy" 5.9 motor
1983 Honda Goldwing 1100 Interstate

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Report this Post12-23-2013 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cooguyfish:


Yeah, I think you guys missed the point, maybe because you weren't here during the days when people constantly tried to claim how much better fieros were then so many other cars. Or people who constantly claimed that just swapping in a 3800 S/C makes a fiero a world class super car. Fast, yes, world class, not so much.

Also, note that I did specifically bring up older cars like 80's BMWs as a comparison for a car that was built around the same timeframe. Sure maybe it was more new, but we aren't talking about new cars either now are we?


Performance wise.. the turbo 3800 fiero does a decent job in keeping up with a GTR in most every performance metric with the correct junkyard upgrades... Dollar per performance it downright obliterates a GTR/C7vette/Porche/R8/Gallardo/viper. Its going to look crappy, present some quirky things, be loud, and not be reliable in the hands of your teenage son, but really it doesnt do a bad job. Im not saying it would do a great job on a big road course like the nurenburg... but aside from that 99.9999% of anyone driving or racing in the US is not going to look for a few seconds faster on a high speed road course... but really with the right tweaks it may surprise alot of people.

BTW I am saying this from the perspective fo someone who has built a 10 second fiero for a customer that ordered one for roughly $15,000 total investment.. It proves that even for that cost that the performance delievered holds very strong competition to the ~$100k-$180k super cars performance.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 12-23-2013).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post12-23-2013 03:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I still daily drive my Fieros, but it helps to have 2. One is a pretty much stock 88 2.5/125C and the other is the 88 LS4/F40 car. When I first got the 4cyl car, it took about 2 months of fixing little things here/there to make it daily driver reliable. In the last 2 years, its only broken down 1 time when the ignition module went out. The rest of the time it starts when needed and just runs. The LS4/F40 car is pretty much all new, but the first 2 months of driving it was like driving an old fiero due to the car sitting for about 6 years.

The other cars in the fleet are an 97 Chevy Z-71 4x4 truck and a 99 Maxima (wife's), so its pretty easy to grab the Fiero keys most mornings.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 04:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GrantmanClick Here to Email GrantmanSend a Private Message to GrantmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by fieroguru:

I still daily drive my Fieros, but it helps to have 2.


certainly explains why some folks have 2, 3, 4 or more Fieros. Need for back ups if one goes down!! lol.

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Toontown Fiero
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Report this Post12-23-2013 04:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Toontown FieroSend a Private Message to Toontown FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cooguyfish:


Yeah, I think you guys missed the point, maybe because you weren't here during the days when people constantly tried to claim how much better fieros were then so many other cars. Or people who constantly claimed that just swapping in a 3800 S/C makes a fiero a world class super car. Fast, yes, world class, not so much.

Also, note that I did specifically bring up older cars like 80's BMWs as a comparison for a car that was built around the same timeframe. Sure maybe it was more new, but we aren't talking about new cars either now are we?


I understand your point.
However it's kind of hard to compare so many different kinds of cars that were designed for so many different functions in so many different price categories.
You are trying to have the best of everything from 30 year old cars. I certainly didn't buy a fiero and expect to have fantastic fuel mileage, rock solid reliability, muscle car acceleration, and super car handling. All for 500 bucks!
I'm just saying these highly "scientific" comparisons seem ridiculous.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 05:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Toontown Fiero:


I understand your point.
However it's kind of hard to compare so many different kinds of cars that were designed for so many different functions in so many different price categories.
You are trying to have the best of everything from 30 year old cars. I certainly didn't buy a fiero and expect to have fantastic fuel mileage, rock solid reliability, muscle car acceleration, and super car handling. All for 500 bucks!
I'm just saying these highly "scientific" comparisons seem ridiculous.


That's the point, at certain times people on these forums go on and make fiero's sound like they CAN do all of these things you mention. That's why I brought up both the 83 mustang, and the BMW. One car was built for speed, and could probably still hand a fiero it's butt in the turns, the other built for turns and can still beat the fiero in acceleration and fuel mileage hands down.

Stock for stock of course. Price doesn't concern me as much because we all know if you are going to build a car for fun, you are going to have too much money in it. I would bet if you gave me a $5,000 budget, I could build an 80's BMW 325 in parrellel to someone speeding 5,000 on a fiero build and the BMW would probably still be better all around. Note, all around, not shove a 3800 turbo in it run tens and tell me it's a better sports car than a BMW.

Really, at the end of the day I wanted to see if more people on this forum have come to grip with reality yet, and acknowledge what a fiero is and isn't.

Let's not talk about completely re engineered fiero's either, given enough time talent and loads of money, I am sure someone could do a complete redesign of the car and make it pretty awesome on all merits. I am merely talking of cars the average to above average joe can build.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 05:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TommyRockerClick Here to Email TommyRockerSend a Private Message to TommyRockerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by cooguyfish:


Really, at the end of the day I wanted to see if more people on this forum have come to grip with reality yet, and acknowledge what a fiero is and isn't.


I don't think most of us were as disconnected from reality as you seem to have been, we had a grip all along. If we actually expected the Fiero to be a $500 super car we would not spend thousands on brake, engine, and suspension upgrades.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by TommyRocker:


I don't think most of us were as disconnected from reality as you seem to have been, we had a grip all along. If we actually expected the Fiero to be a $500 super car we would not spend thousands on brake, engine, and suspension upgrades.


It isn't that I never had a grip on reality, it's that when I started getting on this forum 12 years ago people went on and on about how much fiero's are auto-x champs, road course kings, street sleepers, and how they could hand xyz car it's butt in the turns. So, yes, the older I have gotten and the more cars I have driven the more I realize that people on this forum may have had higher than usual expectations of what these cars can do. So I made a post to find out if this still continues today.

So yes, if you guys wouldn't mind to stop acting like I am disconnected with reality that would be special. Because nothing says "I'm right on the interwebz" like throwing insults around instead of having actual polite conversations.
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Toontown Fiero
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Report this Post12-23-2013 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Toontown FieroSend a Private Message to Toontown FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by cooguyfish:

Stock for stock of course. Price doesn't concern me as much because we all know if you are going to build a car for fun, you are going to have too much money in it. I would bet if you gave me a $5,000 budget, I could build an 80's BMW 325 in parrellel to someone speeding 5,000 on a fiero build and the BMW would probably still be better all around. Note, all around, not shove a 3800 turbo in it run tens and tell me it's a better sports car than a BMW.



I get what you're saying but a BMW 325 was probably double the MSRP of a fiero. It's like saying spend an extra $5k on a new Ford Fiesta and spend an extra $5k on a new Dodge Challenger and the Challenger will still outperform the Fiesta. It's not comparing apples to apples.

The fiero was never supposed to be a real sports car. The fiero "flaw" is that it has always looked sporty and still looks sporty today. In stock form and certainly with 30 year old suspension and drivetrains it just can't back up those looks as well as newer cars. Of course people will exaggerate their car's performance. People exaggerate about everything; however in the interest of keeping it polite you are basically doing the same thing by saying a mustang or BMW or whatever will probably beat a fiero in the turns or straight lines or how loud it's radio is.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Toontown Fiero:


I get what you're saying but a BMW 325 was probably double the MSRP of a fiero. It's like saying spend an extra $5k on a new Ford Fiesta and spend an extra $5k on a new Dodge Challenger and the Challenger will still outperform the Fiesta. It's not comparing apples to apples.

The fiero was never supposed to be a real sports car. The fiero "flaw" is that it has always looked sporty and still looks sporty today. In stock form and certainly with 30 year old suspension and drivetrains it just can't back up those looks as well as newer cars. Of course people will exaggerate their car's performance. People exaggerate about everything; however in the interest of keeping it polite you are basically doing the same thing by saying a mustang or BMW or whatever will probably beat a fiero in the turns or straight lines or how loud it's radio is.


I am going to take it then that the general consensus in the past five years or so has become more in line with reality in regards to fiero's. I'm telling you, it wasn't that long ago people getting on here saying a mildly modified fiero could keep up with a c5 corvette on a road course, or, like i mentioned, that fiero's would walk camaros and mustangs in turns, even newer ones.

Now, msrp I could care less about. I don't care if a fiero was half what a mustang or bmw or corvette was or etc. we aren't talking about new cars and I understand the point you are trying to make, but it isn't relevant to the point I was making about fiero owners in the past thinking fiero ls were Gods gift to the automotive enthusiast. Really, at this point, a more accurate comparison would be either total cost of ownership, or like I said, which car can be built better for a set amount of monies.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 07:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also, just for fun I did look into it for you.

1988 Fiero gt, msrp $13,999
1988 mustang gt msrp $12,745
1988 BMW 325i msrp $28,400

Surprising to me? Sure! But considering that I have never ever ever considered purchasing a brand new car, it isn't an important consideration for me at this time.
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California Kid
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Report this Post12-23-2013 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good thing the California Kid is sleeping through the winter, or she'd be spitting pistons through her deck lid.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BrittBSend a Private Message to BrittBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've had great cars in the past which includes a few that people would kill for but I got a Fiero because I like it. I care not what anyone else thinks either, it's my choice. I just sold my 07 350Z which I bought new and I still have my 2000 BMW 328i daily driver and for grunt work my 1999 Ford F-150 4x4. I've had street rods, muscle cars, (my first car was a 69 Camaro in high school!), as well as sports cars. I choose my Fiero as my fun car because it's what I want!
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Report this Post12-23-2013 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would say a stock fiero is not going to be the best car out there but if you know what to do it can be made to handle better such as puting solid mounts on the back of pre 88 and sway bar in the rear with new springs and struts and wider sticky tires that will all work together and put poly bushings in your A arms it will be better but if you realy wanted it to be great you will need to redesign both front and rear suspensions and will that make you beat every other car out there no because it will depend on your driving skill

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 12-23-2013).]

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Report this Post12-23-2013 08:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sell your fiero and buy something else.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by solotwo:

Sell your fiero and buy something else.


Sorry, I guess if I don't think fiero's are Gods gift to cars that I am not allowed to own one?

I do think I made a list of things they are good at, did I not?

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Report this Post12-23-2013 09:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by cooguyfish:


Sorry, I guess if I don't think fiero's are Gods gift to cars that I am not allowed to own one?

I do think I made a list of things they are good at, did I not?


Not what I was getting. I skimmed over your rant and it seemed to me that you were unhappy with your car. I still dont understand why you like your fiero but complained about them.

Wait I bet your just like me. You like the car, but sometimes you get so darned depressed when the darned thing breaks and you have to repair it. Seems like something is always breaking etc. Is that what you were getting at? That I totally understand. Just went through it! and I Still have lots of problems but I go drive it, problems and all and I still like driving it.

AND your car doesnt look like all the other cookie cutter cars on the road. IE new Jetta looks like a hunday that looks like a honda that looks like ............. etc.
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Report this Post12-23-2013 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for N3M3S1SClick Here to visit N3M3S1S's HomePageClick Here to Email N3M3S1SSend a Private Message to N3M3S1SEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I bought my Fiero because I have a thing for odd cars. And lets be honest, the Fiero is an odd little car but also a hell'uva lot of fun. I also have to say it has been my most reliable car thus far. I've only ever owned a 92 S10 Blazer, an 88 Mustang 5.0(worst car for a kid fresh out of High school, you WILL break it like every other day), and my 79 Cutlass(bought as a fixer upper though). I love this little red bastard and I hope I never sell it. Lol
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Kevin87FieroGT
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Report this Post12-23-2013 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin87FieroGTSend a Private Message to Kevin87FieroGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The next time I hurt my back and take Vicadin, I'll tell you how much I like my Fiero.

Really though, I like it for what it is. Handling, looks, maintenance, and the great owners I have met are all part of the fun of owning one. Its a unique car with qualities all its own. Yes, mine will never be a super car, so what.

I appreciate what the OP is saying and yes there are better cars out there but they are not Fieros.

Happy Holidays All!
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Report this Post12-23-2013 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for I FAR ISend a Private Message to I FAR IEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dollar for dollar, Fieros are wonderful cars! I've had Mustangs, Trans Ams, VWs and Mercedes Benzes.

My daily driver is a CL500 regarded as one of the best cars ever made and for $125k new - it should be.

BUT, my 85 Fiero GT has been in my possession for 20 years and I'm not letting it go. Compared to the Mustangs and Trans Ams, the Fiero GT in stock trim may not be as fast, or quick, but it kicks the ass of those cars in me having FUN when banging gears and in corners. It takes a certain amount of skills and balls to get the best out of these cars, but they are so worth getting to know. I've run with a few 80s Vettes, Mustangs, 911s, Ferrari 308s; 90s Mustangs, 911s, 5.7 litre Camaros. Lexuses and 5 series BMWs and made ALL of them work and have respect for the little Fiero GT.

I drive the **** out of my car, because I can and it costs so little, but gives me so much joy! Problems, sure I've had a few, but what mechanical objects don't?

I've added a few bits at low cost....Suspension Technique springs, rear sway bar, cat delete, chip, ram cold air intake, better brakes, hi flow fuel pump, ported manifolds and for that little bit of work, the little GT ran naturally aspirated with some big dogs and out ran some too and did it while looking, sounding and feeling great!

Plus, you can turn them into figurative and literal supercars and supercar equals as some have done here, so what's not to like or appreciate?!

Now supercharged, w/Truleo Headers and re-built motor!

For the money they are GREAT cars, imo -- and that is all that matters!

[This message has been edited by I FAR I (edited 12-23-2013).]

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KOS
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Report this Post12-23-2013 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KOSClick Here to visit KOS's HomePageSend a Private Message to KOSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I cant really count how many cars I have owned or driven. I think in the past 5 years I have owned 6 cars alone.

I know the fastest was probably the 650hp ac cobra I drove a few months ago. The reason i say fastest too is that the owner let me....not many people let you take thier into the mid 100mph mark. I have a pic of it in my build thread. Fast and gripped the road tight.

I have driven many, many cars as well and have raced some. camaros, vettes, mustangs porsche...old and new.

There is pretty much 2 reasons I own a fiero. 2 seater and mid engine. There are not a lot of mid engine cars out there..none on your list. So personally to me you arent comparing apples to apples at all. But I get your point.

I dont hold my car to any high standard, but they are cheap. Have a decent support system and the motor swap for the 3800 sc or turbo is dirt cheap for the performance.

I did not like the creature comforts at all inside my car so I re did it and am very happy now with how it came out.

Since I tend to go through cars I do plan on keeping this one and simply add to my collection this time instead of selling. Each car has its own uniqueness. ..sorry you felt people made this one seem the best but to me it is a very fun and I dont see any reason why it can't be reliable..but in the end it is just one of many you should own as a car guy. It will probably be the only mid engine you do.

------------------
Dan
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Report this Post12-23-2013 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't brag about my car. It was a $800.00 pos. I put it back together with about another grand. Still looks like crap. It has been very dependable in the 16 months that I had it. I would drive 1,000 mile in it in one trip if I had to. Have done twice that with no issues.
Most people I work with look at it, wonder what the hell it is, chuckle, then when they ride in it just say DAMN. Didn't expect that. 2 weeks ago a fellow worker was worried about driving his less than year old Stang home in 3" of snow. He grew up in Detroit. So he's not afraid of snow. I went looking for open parking lots. When I have it up on a rack, some come over just to see. Most say, That's simple to work on, or that part only cost you what.
Another one had me replace his high pressure pump and intake cam in his near the same miles GTI. Just parts at our cost were over $400. I'll be replacing the still working OE pump in mine soon with an updated one for a later swap(just cause I can and want to cheaply) new, Delco, for about $80.00
Got a recently rebuilt trans for it for around $140.00. Not that the original is going up. Just with the overdrive it will consistently get 30 or better mpg on the highway with a 6. That's better than my wife's 2001 Lumina.
I don't have mine for bragging rights. I don't expect that for what it is. For what I want it for, it will serve me very well.
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jim94
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Report this Post12-23-2013 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jim94Click Here to Email jim94Send a Private Message to jim94Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does everyone have a road course to push the limits of there car. Rear engine cars are fun to drive once you learn how to push the limits of it. My stock 87 GT is balanced well with no twitch . I drove carts when I was young and the fiero is a big cart. How fast do you need to go. Just my 2 cents
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Report this Post12-23-2013 11:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LeeRClick Here to Email LeeRSend a Private Message to LeeREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just my opinion BUT......

I've worked in car parts stores for the better part of 15 years mostly part time because I love to work on cars. My current parts time job is at Hawaii Import Parts where we specialize in european car parts. 3 series, while great cars are NOTORIOUS for breaking down after 75 to 80k miles. Most notably is the cooling system which leads to huge problems due to neglect. I've owned 3 different 3 series and I like them but a 25 years old 3 series does NOT compare to a 25 year old fiero. I'm sorry but we should compare apples to apples.

The car's that you've listed I've owned that many if not more just in the past 10 years. I am 40 and in my life I've probably owned anywhere between 60-80 different cars. My point? I'v driven alot of cars too and I love to way the Fiero drives. I am an enthusiast not a race car driver and for the way I drive, this car meets those demands better than any other 1000k 25 year old car anyone can normally buy!

PLUS, these cars are fricken cool! 3 series are a dime a dozen, Fiero's stand out on the road!!!!

[This message has been edited by LeeR (edited 12-23-2013).]

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