Originally posted by cooguyfish: Cons Low slung means low visibility from other drivers (phrased differently, I have almost been hit driving a fiero so many times it's silly) If not kept up and driven regularly, they are money pits that are down often. Incredibly poor fuel economy most of the time. Sure, some dukes crack 35, but I've also seen them get 20 ish, and 2.8's are more or less the same, but worse. Stock brakes are severely deficient in my opinion.
No. No. No. And no.
The vast majority of drivers in the US are just very bad at driving. They don't pay attention, get easily distracted, and drive as if there's nobody else on the road with them. I've been almost hit so many times, it's just silly; regardless of what I was driving, be it a Fiero, S-10, or a Z71 Silverado or 4x4 Avalanche. People in the US are just incredibly bad at being good drivers.
If not properly kept up, and driven regularly, any car is going to have problems. If you think the Fiero is bad, go buy an e46 M3 and see how expensive and annoying it's going to be, after you neglect it just as bad, letting it sit.
Poor fuel economy? A properly maintained stock 2.5 Fiero can get up to 42-45 MPG highway, and a properly maintained 2.8 can get up to 28-30 MPG highway. Those are both fairly on par with modern standards of fuel economy. Yeah, a poorly maintained car is going to get worse mileage. But you're probably not going to get that good of mileage out of a boxy 80s sedan, like the 325, either.
And, as for the brakes, the stock brakes are perfectly fine on the Fiero, as long as they are properly maintained, and you're not adding a bunch of weight or anything crazy. No, they aren't awesome brakes that would let you run the Motegi circuit in any reasonable speed, but they are more than fine for a daily driven street car. And they're incredibly easy to upgrade. My car has stock brakes on it, and I've never ran into anyone, despite having to stop quickly on several occasions.
No, the Fiero isn't the best car in the world, but it's also not as bad as you seem to be trying to make it out as. If you know and understand the limits of the car, and how to properly drive a mid-engined RWD car, then it's perfectly fine. If you don't know how to drive it properly, and aren't familiar with the limits, it will be very easy to exceed them and end up the wrong way round, in a Fiero, yes.
I'm curious as to how you think a Fiero compares to a Miata. (This is an obvious trick question. About 2-3 years ago, the Miata came in 2nd or 3rd in a Car and Driver competition of the best drivers cars, ever.)
Personally, I find our Miata much easier to drive hard than my Fiero. There's really no comparison between the two cars. The Miata feels like you can just pick it up and place it where you want, and go, while the Fiero feels... ponderous in comparison.
But I don't care. I enjoy driving my Fiero. I have invested a considerable amount of money to make it reliable. It's now to the point that I would hop in it and drive it anywhere. But it's still a work in progress. Probably always will be. (There's something to be said about knowing every bolt and nut in a car. I'm pretty much at that point.)
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
Originally posted by LeeR: My current parts time job is at Hawaii Import Parts where we specialize in european car parts. 3 series, while great cars are NOTORIOUS for breaking down after 75 to 80k miles. Most notably is the cooling system which leads to huge problems due to neglect. I've owned 3 different 3 series and I like them but a 25 years old 3 series does NOT compare to a 25 year old fiero. I'm sorry but we should compare apples to apples.
I feel like I've put easily four times the spanner time into helping a friend work on his E30 325i than I have on my own Fieros in the last five years.
The Fiero is what it is - a commuter machine from the 80s. Yes there's sportier variants and in today's day and age we have some very well matured engine swaps and things to extract more potential, but if the realization isn't made that it wasn't engineered for that kind of shenanigans, expectations can be much too high and reality will bite that much harder.
This argument is so over done. Every single person that owns a Fiero, Mustang, Camaro, Lexus, Mercedes, Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche are all going to have strong opinions towards the car they drive, if they don't why in the world own it. Now to compare a Fiero to a Ferrari or a supercar is silly. No one on this forum thinks their Fiero is comparable to one of them. We frankly aren't that ignorant, but the vast majority of us, especially the ones that have heavily modified Fieros do feel strongly about what our cars can do when lined up with one or overall styling. I don't think there is any other car that you can have such a vast majority of different engine swaps and different modifications on one vehicle. You can virtually stuff any engine you want into one. I've always been very fond of Fieros because of one thing, the uniqueness of them. It's not a Mustang where everyone has one and does the same mods. I have a car that no one even knows or understands but yet still finds very cool. Every time I check and think about why I have a Fiero, I just remember having lined up next to some Ferraris and highly modded muscle cars and giving them a good ol tailight lesson. That feeling is pretty easy to smile upon!
This argument is so over done. Every single person that owns a Fiero, Mustang, Camaro, Lexus, Mercedes, Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche are all going to have strong opinions towards the car they drive, if they don't why in the world own it. Now to compare a Fiero to a Ferrari or a supercar is silly. No one on this forum thinks their Fiero is comparable to one of them. We frankly aren't that ignorant, but the vast majority of us, especially the ones that have heavily modified Fieros do feel strongly about what our cars can do when lined up with one or overall styling. I don't think there is any other car that you can have such a vast majority of different engine swaps and different modifications on one vehicle. You can virtually stuff any engine you want into one. I've always been very fond of Fieros because of one thing, the uniqueness of them. It's not a Mustang where everyone has one and does the same mods. I have a car that no one even knows or understands but yet still finds very cool. Every time I check and think about why I have a Fiero, I just remember having lined up next to some Ferraris and highly modded muscle cars and giving them a good ol tailight lesson. That feeling is pretty easy to smile upon!
I've driven well over 100 different types of cars (many new and stock), out of those I'd say that 25 or so were modified and tinkered with. IMO the Fiero doesn't do anything particularly well stock when looking at the numbers. However it has been one of the most fun cars I've ever owned/ driven in my life. My '95 LT1 T/A would destroy it in a straight line and a road/ autox course- but they Fiero just has that X factor. The quirky styling and construction, the feel you get when driving it.. Nothing compares.
Fieros IMO are just the ultimate blank canvas.. Want a dirt cheap 10 second sleeper? Want a supercar replica/ lookalike? Want the ability to easily interchange or customize any element of your car? No other car compares IMO. The sheer amount of engine swaps and body mods done here outnumber anything that I've ever come across.
In terms of fun factor, Fieros are way up there. I enjoyed mine much more (especially after rebuilding my suspension) than say a C6 (which just felt numb, like most mid 90s cars and later). But I have driven cars that are equally as fun and more capable, say Miatas- or even an MK3 Jetta with cheap raceland coilovers/ poly suspension which felt so much more nimble and gokart like than my Fiero ever could.
I can throw 10k at my Trans Am and still not even cover a proper suspension and built engine, brakes, transmission, etc.. At the end of the day I'd have spend 25k it'll still be a "cookie cutter" mullet machine, which is fine if thats your bag.. But thats where the Fiero stands alone.
I like Fiero's because they are different and fun!
They have relatively light weight (2800 lbs - 88's), 4 wheel disk brakes, 4 wheel independent suspension, plastic/composite body panels, 2 seats, mid engine layout and a 5 star crash rating... and don't have ABS, traction control, electronic climate control, a BCM, or other electronic parts that are prone to go bad over time. It is a very basic and simple car and a good platform to upgrade it as you see fit.
It will never be a supercar or an exotic, and the absence of ABS, Traction Control, and Active Stability Control will make it harder to drive a Fiero at the limits than a newer car, but many modified ones can be quite quite fun to drive and enjoy... like the one in my sig!
------------------ 1988 Notchie: LS4/F40, 382 whp @ 6800 rpm, 325 wtq @ 5000 rpm, 2807 curb weight, 29 mpg 70-75 mph, 20 mpg on my daily commute. Modification List: 4" CAI, LS7 MAF, LS2: TB, Intake, Injectors, 224/232 cam, E67 ECM, LS7 Exhaust manifolds, Magnaflow muffler, 12 lbs aluminum flywheel, 10" Spec stage 4+ clutch, 13" rotor conversion, rear lateral link relocation brackets, rod end lateral link upgrade, top of struts relocated 1" inboard, cut FJF front springs, Koni shocks up front, with 275 lbs/in rear coil overs.
If I want re-assurance that my 88 GT with mods was the right choice, all I have to do is take it for a ride, take it to a Car Show, or Cruise Night. In the 48 Years I've been driving Cars (Plenty of them), and been working in Engineering Groups with Auto Manufacturers, my GT just blows people away.
The Fiero is not for everyone, but the way I look it, that's fine. The more of them that don't get cared for, or make it to the Junk Yard, just increase the WOW Factor of mine. There's more to the car than performance, looks, handling, and cost. I think is called Character Presence, Appreciation, or something like that. For a car that's 25 years old, and still gathers a crowd/compliments wherever it goes, is just beyond what words can express. I could go by a new Corvette for cash, it's a great car period, but it wouldn't get the attention from people, that my GT gets.
If I want re-assurance that my 88 GT with mods was the right choice, all I have to do is take it for a ride, take it to a Car Show, or Cruise Night. In the 48 Years I've been driving Cars (Plenty of them), and been working in Engineering Groups with Auto Manufacturers, my GT just blows people away.
The Fiero is not for everyone, but the way I look it, that's fine. The more of them that don't get cared for, or make it to the Junk Yard, just increase the WOW Factor of mine. There's more to the car than performance, looks, handling, and cost. I think is called Character Presence, Appreciation, or something like that. For a car that's 25 years old, and still gathers a crowd/compliments wherever it goes, is just beyond what words can express. I could go by a new Corvette for cash, it's a great car period, but it wouldn't get the attention from people, that my GT gets.
I take my car on a 4 day road trip every year with a big group of cars. Every year there is a slightly different mix of vehicles. Old British sports cars, new muscle cars, classic muscle cars, imports, supercars, modern sports cars, hot rods, cruiser bikes, super bikes. Pretty much everything at one point has been there. My car is significantly modified, but not wild. My Fiero holds its own on almost any public road against everything but the supercars or very highly modified cars and bikes. I'm a pretty confident driver, and that seams to be the biggest factor. Some of the other cars on the trip I've driven, and i noticed most of the people that own those cars don't even use 70% of the cars potential. I feel comfortable enough in my fiero to get 100% out of it. Most of the time that's enough to keep my car right there with almost all the cars that attend this trip (around 20 a year). Most of the guys on the trip usually assume I have 300+ horsepower, but I only have 180 to the wheels. They also never beleive how little money i have into the car. The only things out there that can go faster for less are bikes.
My car to me is a toy, a hobby, an excuse to hang out with fiero folk (still the best car folk out there), and cheap therapy. It also doubles as a cheap mid life crisis. I still drive it any chance I get, even though my Chevy sonic is a better car in every way except acceleration, and maybe at the limit cornering. There are times I consider selling it, or wonder why I have it, but then I remember what I felt like 2 months after selling my last one.
You are comparing Apples to oranges, Putting a fiero into the same class as a comparison to a newer Mustang, Corvette, BMW, Etc Is just Ludacris, you are comparing a decade+ of engineering To a Parts bin car that at the end of the day has stood the test of time Very well compared to a good amount of the other cars you listed, For one, How many saturns do you see still on the road right now, may not see it yet but they are starting to Dwindle, As for reliability, that is all what you put into it, Any car can be reliable or unreliable, it all depends on how well you take care of it.
Ive owned litterally hundreds of different cars from VW campers to stretch Lincoln limos. I will say the Fiero I did into my Ferrari kit was probably about the most reliable car I owned. My current Sebring is now getting close. Mine had stock suspension other than Bilstiens, but I had 16x8 rims all around. I had stock UNVENTED brakes. My business was aimed primarily at Corvettes and exotics so Ive driven ALL the premier sports cars (except maybe a Bugati). I owned 2 C4 Corvettes. My Ferrari kit handled as well as any of them. The only ones I owned that may have been better were 2 AMG Mercedes SLs. I had no problem with brake confidence. It had no trouble stopping or slowing from 150 mph. It was faster than real 308s (Id raced some) I made myself adventures by seeking out hilly, twisty country roads just for fun and seeing how fast I could take them. I had one local stretch of road about 25 miles long I often would just spend a weekend day driving back and forth on all afternoon till it burned up all the gas. I had very few problems in the 100K I put on it before I sold it. It was a turboed 3.1, 4 speed. It would be welcome home back in the garage any time if whoever has it took as good of care of it as I did.
Originally posted by cooguyfish: ...Really, at the end of the day I wanted to see if more people on this forum have come to grip with reality yet, and acknowledge what a fiero is and isn't...
Here is my reality...I can tell you that my Fiero does something that no 80s BMW or Mustang can do....put a smile on my face! Another thing they can't do that the Fiero can is be my first car. I don't drive a Fiero because it is the fastest most best handling car out there. I don't drive it because it is a supercar (although I believe it is a super car). I drive it because it stirs my soul in a way none of those others can. I love it with all its faults and shortcomings. I also have a few other cars in my stable, one of which happens to be a BMW 330Cic. It is a phenomenal car. While I respect your argument about the ability of our little 2 seater, or more to the point it's inabilities, my Fiero does something none of my other cars can.
[This message has been edited by johnyrottin (edited 12-27-2013).]
Does everyone have a road course to push the limits of there car. Rear engine cars are fun to drive once you learn how to push the limits of it. My stock 87 GT is balanced well with no twitch . I drove carts when I was young and the fiero is a big cart. How fast do you need to go. Just my 2 cents
If you like rear engined cars, get a 911, VW bug or Corvair.
One thing I really like about stock or mildly modded Fieros is they aren't fast as hell. Since I don't do the drag strip thing, I couldn't care less about quarter mile times. I enjoy spirited driving on back roads with the music cranked up. I have an LS1 TA and it's fast enough to get me in serious trouble if I drive it hard. With the Fiero, I can find a twisty road and drive the snot out of it, and not end up doing 120 and getting arrested. Yeah, it's slow, but it's fun and it puts a smile on my face. I enjoy driving it. To me, that's the point. If you want an autox demon or quarter mile racer, there are better options.
Cooguyfish, I am sorry to hear about your back. I have back problems also. Just to clarify I am a novice when compared to the knowledge of the forum members. There are fiero owners that have incredible talent at modifying the stock design of the fiero. That said, grand ideas are what made the original fiero become a reality. If members take a fiero and work their magic and grand ideas beyond the percieved limitations, I think it is awesome! It takes the fiero to a supercar GOD like status. I don't have the time, money or knowledge to create these beautiful fieros. I think my stock fiero gt is a supercar when I drive it. LOL. I grin when I see it and I grin when I drive it. It is that X factor. Talk about fun! Cooguyfish, I hope you feel better and can get some relief from your back problem.
Now that all the christmas stuffs are over and past I can get back on here and make a few more comments.
I do want to point out that despite everything I said, I do still think fieros are fun cars to drive. I also realize they are quite attractive, and even today, still look good compared to newer cars. Actually, while we are talking styling, I have found that I don't particularly car for the looks of most cars newer than say 08 or so. Too big, heavy, and it looks like everyday the gap between sedans and SUV's is closing. The new camaro is ugly, the new mustang concept is ugly, the new corvette I would sport though
I also realize that fiero's are unique and have a certain appeal because of that. Actually, one of the reasons I like the mustang that I stole from my dad (long story), being an 83, it's still a fox body, and a GT, but looks nothing like the common foxes. they one I have is known as the "4 eye" fox, it has recessed lights like a camaro of the same era, and the 83 doesn't have the gaudy ground effects of the later 80's mustangs. Mine actually just looks like a 4 cylinder car, and most people think it is. And that's sorta the same feeling I have towards a fiero, they are unique, somewhat fun to drive, and look great, but the parts bin selection just shows up more and more.
If you guys need it I will be more than happy to start searching in old threads for the comments I spoke of earlier, of people saying that stock handling fieros would walk a mustang in the turns, or camaros, etc etc.
Also, On my comments, california kids car is exempted from them all
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Originally posted by dobey: No. No. No. And no.
The vast majority of drivers in the US are just very bad at driving. They don't pay attention, get easily distracted, and drive as if there's nobody else on the road with them. I've been almost hit so many times, it's just silly; regardless of what I was driving, be it a Fiero, S-10, or a Z71 Silverado or 4x4 Avalanche. People in the US are just incredibly bad at being good drivers.
Poor fuel economy? A properly maintained stock 2.5 Fiero can get up to 42-45 MPG highway, and a properly maintained 2.8 can get up to 28-30 MPG highway. Those are both fairly on par with modern standards of fuel economy. Yeah, a poorly maintained car is going to get worse mileage. But you're probably not going to get that good of mileage out of a boxy 80s sedan, like the 325, either.
Partially true, and partially not. I drive a tandem axel fuel truck for a living, and somehow people still manage not to see the 35' ish long 14' high truck RIGHT NEXT TO THEM. So yes, people are not good drivers in general, and don't pay attention. HOWEVER, when I drive something like a fiero, or other small car, I get people to pull out right in front of me or almost hit me far more often than in a truck, so I stand by what I said, people don't see the fiero as easily because of it's size.
On fuel mileage, I have never met someone in person that gets good fuel MPG with a fiero. I believe your duke gets 40+, I really do, but of the 10 or so I have dealt with in person, I haven't seen much anything at or over 30. Right now, my friend has one with 117K miles that won't shift into first (auto), and gets between 20-25 mixed.
Gt's I had one that got 19-20 (auto, mixed/backroad highways) 22-24 (4M, same driving) Not bad, auto car had 100K miles when parked, 4M had 52K miles at the time.
I haven't owned an E30 325i that I could test fuel mileage with, my friend has an AWD, Auto, 325IX though and got into the 20-22 range with that, and that is THE WORST E30 for fuel mileage you can get. That car had 189K on a broken odometer BTW, estimated mileage was 210-225K.
I had a 95 325I (5M, 190HP, 180 ftlbs) that pulled 25-27 mixed, and low 30's highway, with almost 200K on the clock.
Also, any of you guys saying BMW's aren't reliable are guilty of the same thing that people say about fiero's catching on fire. Newer BMW's (as in 06+) I can't tell you, and I have heard bad things, but older BMWs, like E30's, E36's, and E46's are quite reliable if you put ANY effort into one.
This is the current BMW I have and drive, yes it has had some issues, some things have been done to it already and I am currently looking into an idling issue, but then again, with almost 200K on the clock, and everything is original, what did you expect?
Also, the inside held up very well to 200K miles
Admittedly, that car is nothing super special BMW wise, but I brought it up since you guys kept saying they aren't reliable, and if you really think that you are dead wrong. Maybe every once in a while they will have problems but no more or less than any other car, if not less than other cars. You guys should see my dad's 01 Impala and talk about build quality, or lack there of...
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Originally posted by pontiackid86:
You are comparing Apples to oranges, Putting a fiero into the same class as a comparison to a newer Mustang, Corvette, BMW, Etc Is just Ludacris, you are comparing a decade+ of engineering To a Parts bin car that at the end of the day has stood the test of time Very well compared to a good amount of the other cars you listed, For one, How many saturns do you see still on the road right now, may not see it yet but they are starting to Dwindle, As for reliability, that is all what you put into it, Any car can be reliable or unreliable, it all depends on how well you take care of it.
I want to 100% clear up, The only cars I DIRECT compared a fiero to, are the 83 mustang, and the 80's BMW 325ix (I believe my friends is an 89). I only mentioned the newer cars as more a side note, and more as a reference for other cars I driven. Like I said, I 100% realize that comparing my 01 BMW to a fiero is not even remotely a fair comparison, but that car is pretty wicked. I only brought up the C5 corvette because I have seen on this forum where people have said a fiero could "keep up" with a C5 on a road course.
The only reason I brought up saturns, is because of the relationship to a fiero. I can imagine how much better of a car a fiero could have been had it had the same effort placed into it that a saturn had. Somehow, even though a fiero is dramatically smaller, a saturn is still 200-400 lbs lighter than GT's. I realize a decent amount of that is engine weight, but the fiero is DRAMATICALLY smaller, yet still heavier. I contend that had GM put the same effort into the chassis lightening they did on saturns, and put in a lighter engine (like a saturn has), that a fiero would probably have weighed 2000-2200 lbs, and with even a minor improvement to suspension design over the 88's, probably would have been an amazing car.
Speaking of saturns, I know one person mentioned the saturn they have feels like a minivan, the twin cams have bigger front bar, and have a rear bar that the single cams don't have at all, and they are noticeably more agile due to it. No, they don't have the "feel" of a fiero, but if I can take a specific turn at 30 MPH in a saturn, or 25 in a fiero, that's why I say they are more capable stock, and substantially more predictable.
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Originally posted by johnyrottin: Here is my reality...I can tell you that my Fiero does something that no 80s BMW or Mustang can do....put a smile on my face! Another thing they can't do that the Fiero can is be my first car. I don't drive a Fiero because it is the fastest most best handling car out there. I don't drive it because it is a supercar (although I believe it is a super car). I drive it because it stirs my soul in a way none of those others can. I love it with all its faults and shortcomings. I also have a few other cars in my stable, one of which happens to be a BMW 330Cic. It is a phenomenal car. While I respect your argument about the ability of our little 2 seater, or more to the point it's inabilities, my Fiero does something none of my other cars can.
I get pretty excited about taking turns at stupid speeds in E30's, and knowing that even though I have tried, I still can't upset the balance of the car. The mustang is quite fun, in that I never understood all this "v8 rumble" stuff until I drove that car, newer V8's are just too smooth. The mustang just sorta rocks back and forth, but not in an annoying 4 cylinder shake type movement, it's just so smooth. It's also quite fun to kick that car sideways and hang the back end out sideways until I feel like letting it back in line...
The fiero, also happens to be my first car and as such I won't part with it, what happens to it will depend on budget at the time of having the monies/time to do something with it. being that mine is a factory auto car, and given the traction abilities of the car, I am planning on making a streetable drag car out of it. I won't DD it, but I will keep all the creature comforts I like like A/C and cruise and all that jazz. Presently I have a 4.9 cadillac sitting around, complete car, I kick around the idea of putting that in, and when I want to go really fast mimicking PBJ's turbo build. but that could change by the time I get around to doing it, I still haven't decided.
So that's all for now, remember, I like these cars, this conversation is just about the undeniable limitations that sometimes people like to pretend don't exist in them.
Pinko commie crap!no wonder the atheist commies stadiums have astroturf to keep thier cheerleader from grazing!! the 80.s BMW were very unreliable expensive yuppie crap!! the quality of japanese cars force the former nazi,s to manufacture cars worthy of the great expense I had a 88 fiero duke daily driver that handled great ,stop excellent ,got 30 mpg over all,only problem I did not know how to bleed the clutch slave cylinder ,drove it for 3 years the 84 to 86 leave a lot to be desired , they are from the G.M . parts bin & a good car for the year,, the Fiero is just a neato jet car even the coup looks O.K. in todays world
what do you call 4 blacks cramed into a Fiero GT ?? a blood vessel
God Guts,Guns, & Fiero made America free lets keep them all
Not sure where a lot of that came from....look....fieros are an 80s car, and were great for the day. My ls1 TA like others mentioned would DESTROY any stock or even most modified fieros in every sense of the word. But you know what? I don't drive the TA much....its really my wifes' car. I love fieros because they help me recapture something from my youth. Something i can't find anywhere else. I drive my car....or did as its getting an extreme makeover right now...because it makes me feel alive and like a kid again. Some older guys have affairs with women.....my wife says mine is with my car......nuff said.
------------------ 87 GT....SBC...fast as hell... Proud new owner of....THE DIRTY RAT
I personally feel that a Fiero GT with nice paint, 17" rims is still more stylish than just about anything else out there. Fun to drive, turns heads, and won't break the bank.
I bought my SE because I wanted a fun project car (eventually a Murcielago replica...just working on the mechanics first) - kids are out of the house now...gotta keep busy. I already have a reliable daily driver, so I can take my time and just enjoy working on it in my free time. Once it's finished, I have no doubt I'll get another one to work on
