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3800 Engine Questions by Rare87GT
Started on: 11-12-2013 07:38 PM
Replies: 19 (997 views)
Last post by: MstangsBware on 12-01-2013 12:09 AM
Rare87GT
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Report this Post11-12-2013 07:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rare87GTClick Here to Email Rare87GTSend a Private Message to Rare87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I feel like a novice anymore on properly picking the right year motor/transmission on a 3800SC combo for a setup since it's been so long since I've done mine. My girlfriend's Formula has some issues on the 2.8L, (piston slap or something), not sure. It seems oil pressure is good, so don't know unless we tear it down, and well might as well upgrade it if we are doing that especially since we have to swap the cradle, etc because of rust.

A few questions. I have found a 04 Monte Carlo SS engine but no transmission on craigslist here locally in Wichita, KS. Is that a Series II or III motor?


And then I also found a 05 GTP motor, transmission, wiring, and pcm setup locally. From what I read and heard, I would need to swap to a 98-02 harness then grab another PCM and change the Throttle body and injectors to a series II setup. Will the transmission work since it's a 05? Just trying to find out the best deal I can come up with and my options.


Thanks in advance,

Amir

------------------


Best 1/4: 11.7 @ 115mph
Best 60ft: 1.60

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DKcustoms
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Report this Post11-12-2013 07:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DKcustomsSend a Private Message to DKcustomsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All I can offer is that the Monte Carlo motor you have is Series II, as this is the same swap I am working on at the moment.

Lots of good information here
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revin
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Report this Post11-12-2013 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just give her your red one. You know it WILL be half hers one day anyway

------------------

88 GT, 3800SC, Getrag 5sp. 12" Vette Rotors,Custom stuff done

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INF3RNO
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Report this Post11-12-2013 08:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for INF3RNOClick Here to Email INF3RNOSend a Private Message to INF3RNOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Haha we both know it's already half mine Revin! Thanks for reminding him though
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MstangsBware
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Report this Post11-12-2013 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by INF3RNO:

Haha we both know it's already half mine Revin! Thanks for reminding him though


Damn...Got him in check already.....
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Rare87GT
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Report this Post11-13-2013 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rare87GTClick Here to Email Rare87GTSend a Private Message to Rare87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:


Damn...Got him in check already.....



Hang on a minute!!!! I've let her drive it once while I was in the car on the way home from a car meet. I'm hiding the keys now! Haha.
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Rare87GT
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Report this Post11-13-2013 12:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rare87GTClick Here to Email Rare87GTSend a Private Message to Rare87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Rare87GT

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Member since Oct 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by revin:

Just give her your red one. You know it WILL be half hers one day anyway




You are one funny guy Mr. Fork man lol
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mitchjl22
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Report this Post11-13-2013 12:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mitchjl22Click Here to Email mitchjl22Send a Private Message to mitchjl22Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From what I've researched, the 05 GTP tranny should work, as long as its not a Comp G GTP. I think the ECM controls the tranny 04-08, but if its the GTP NOT comp G, it can be run like the engine, with an older PCM. Don't quote me on that, I'm just trying to recall that information. I didn't really take notes, because I did a manual with my swap. I'm doing an L32 Series III swap right now, and I'm running it with a 2003 GTP Throttle Body (Later Year had a little better flow), I'm using a Series II PCM, and I'm using my stock 135,000 mile Getrag 282 5 Speed.

The 04-05 Mote Carlo had the L67 Supercharged Series II, The 1997-2003 GTPs had the L67 Supercharged Series II, the 2004-2008 GTP had the L32 Supercharged Series III

These are all the cars with Series II L67 Supercharged motors: (This could be false info, but I heard the L32 Series III was ONLY Pontiac's deal)
1996–2005 Buick Park Avenue Ultra
1997.5–2004 Buick Regal GS / GSE / GSX (SLP)
1996–1999 Buick Riviera (optional 1996-97, std. 1998-99)
2004–2005 Chevrolet Impala SS
2004–2005 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS Supercharged/Intimidator SS
1996–1999 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight LSS (limited)
1996–2003 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi
1997–2003 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP / GTX (SLP)
1996–2004 Holden Commodore VS (series II),

Here's dome info Darth Fiero Gave me on another thread.

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Series 2's and Series 3's are pretty much the same. The main difference was in the blower design, the Series 3 blower's improvements net it another 20hp over the Series 2.

Early 3800 Series 3 SC engines received Series 2 internals (mainly, cast connecting rods). I have verified this on 2 engines, personally. Later Series 3 engines received powdered metal connecting rods which are stronger or weaker depending on who you talk to.

All Series 3 engines came with drive-by-wire throttle bodies and PCMs that can be a pain to work with in a swap application. The good news is you can buy an adapter plate which allows you to run a cable-op throttle body on one of these engines and an earlier PCM which will be easier to tune for a swap application.

Many vendors in the Fiero community sell conversion parts for the Series 2 & 3 engines. You are NOT going to find much support for the Series 1 3800's. Series 1's are good engines, but they don't make as much power as Series 2's or 3's, and they are getting harder to find without a ton of miles on them...

-ryan



http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/090209.html

-Mitch

Good Luck!

------------------
My Car
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/121571.html#p0

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mitchjl22
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Report this Post11-13-2013 12:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mitchjl22Click Here to Email mitchjl22Send a Private Message to mitchjl22Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh, another thing I'm not sure if you know about the Series III compatibility, but the fuel rail is going to need converted. The Series II are fine because they had Fuel Pressure Regulators built into the fuel rail like on the Fiero, but the Series III has returnless rails, with no FPR. There's a multitude of ways to do it, but if you aren't running an intercooler, and its a basically stock setup, one of the easiest ways is to add a fuel pressure regulator before the fuel rail.

For Example on my Car:

Or
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Four_hundred_86
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Report this Post11-13-2013 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Four_hundred_86Click Here to Email Four_hundred_86Send a Private Message to Four_hundred_86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I do know with the auto trans, you need to verify how the transmission is controlled, I know of a member that burned up a later 4t65ehd using the earlier computer. As it turned out the transmission had a multistage solonoid pack, and the computer had an on off controller.

------------------
Honestly, What is a "stock" Fiero?

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post11-13-2013 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I already spoke to Amir about this in PMs but I feel as though the community could benefit from the information here.

Starting in 2003 model year, GM changed the pressure manifold switch assembly that was mounted to the valve body on the 4T65-E transmissions. They dropped a number of pressure switches from that assembly in the 2003-later transmissions that were used in earlier transmissions. 2002-earlier PCMs (programming) will not work with the 2003-later 4T65-E transmissions properly because the earlier PCMs will be looking for this set of extra pressure switches that do not exist in the later transmissions. The design of the pressure control solenoid as well as its control strategy for it also changed in 2003. So you must use a 2003-newer PCM if you are using a 2003-newer 4T65-E transmission.

TAPShift was introduced in some 2004-newer 4T65-E transmissions. The TAPShift compatible 4T65-E transmissions receieved a different design valve body that would allow all gears (1-4) to be selected by the PCM when the shifter was moved into any lower range position (ie: D3, L2, and L1) and for the over-run clutches to be engaged in all gears. The 2004-newer drive-by-wire throttle body PCM itself controlled the TAPShift function. There are no 3800 cable-op throttle body compatible GM PCMs that will control the TAPShift function.

Having said that, you CAN use a TAPShift equipped 4T65-E with a non-TAPShift capable PCM (the TAP shift function just won't work, but the trans will shift normally otherwise). I have done it myself with no problems. The key thing to keep in mind is this: if you are using a 2003-newer 4T65-E transmission, you must use a 2003-newer compatible PCM. For those of you who are using cable-op throttle bodies (on Series 2 or 3 engines), this means you will be limited to using one of the below PCMs:

12209614
12209624
12583826
12583827

I recommend using 2003 model year Grand Prix GTP base programming for this type of application. This programming did have VATS (passkey 3) and some nasty cat & post-cat diagnostics enabled from the factory, so you will need the PCM custom programmed to disable those functions/diagnostics before you will be able to use it in a Fiero swap. This is something I can do for mail orders, no problem.

-ryan

------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

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Report this Post11-13-2013 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rare87GT:
You are one funny guy Mr. Fork man lol




I am proud that a response to my comment made her join the PFF club.

The power of REVIN hahahahahhaha
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Rare87GT
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Report this Post11-14-2013 12:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rare87GTClick Here to Email Rare87GTSend a Private Message to Rare87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well we just picked up a Series III Supercharged engine/transmission combo about 2 hours ago for a heck of a deal. Now time to remember all the parts to buy again 10 years later. I'm sure Megan will update you all on what's going on soon. And it will not be faster than my car, I will set a rev limiter.
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revin
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Report this Post11-14-2013 10:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow Amir,
Way to stay on top. She still may win a race cause of all the wax on her car
I think she could put her own "go fast" stuff on there without ya. (Pssst...Megan, just come on back down , Ill help ya beat him! )
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Report this Post11-16-2013 04:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Check out this site for mods
http://www.v6performance.com.au/

2002 onwards

VY Commodore Executive - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VY Commodore Acclaim - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VY Commodores S pac - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VY Commodore SS - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VY Commodore Berlina - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VY Calais - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
WH (VY based) Statesman - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
WH (VY based) Caprice - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
Holden CV6 (VY Based) Coupe - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
2000 onwards

VX Commodore Executive - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VX Commodore Acclaim - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VX Commodores S pac - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VX Commodore SS - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VX Commodore Berlina - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VX Calais - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
WH (VX based) Statesman - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
WH (VX based) Caprice - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
HSV XU6 (VX based) Sports Sedan - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
Holden CV6 (VX Based) Coupe - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
1998 onwards

VT Commodores - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VT Commodores S pac - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VT Commodore SS - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VT Commodore Berlina - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VT Calais - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
WH (VT based) Statesman - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
WH (VT based) Caprice - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
HSV XU6 (VT based) Sports Sedan - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
1996 onwards

VS Commodores - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VS Statesman - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
VS Caprice - Supercharged or Ecotec V6
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post11-17-2013 03:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

I already spoke to Amir about this in PMs but I feel as though the community could benefit from the information here.

Starting in 2003 model year, GM changed the pressure manifold switch assembly that was mounted to the valve body on the 4T65-E transmissions. They dropped a number of pressure switches from that assembly in the 2003-later transmissions that were used in earlier transmissions. 2002-earlier PCMs (programming) will not work with the 2003-later 4T65-E transmissions properly because the earlier PCMs will be looking for this set of extra pressure switches that do not exist in the later transmissions. The design of the pressure control solenoid as well as its control strategy for it also changed in 2003. So you must use a 2003-newer PCM if you are using a 2003-newer 4T65-E transmission.

TAPShift was introduced in some 2004-newer 4T65-E transmissions. The TAPShift compatible 4T65-E transmissions receieved a different design valve body that would allow all gears (1-4) to be selected by the PCM when the shifter was moved into any lower range position (ie: D3, L2, and L1) and for the over-run clutches to be engaged in all gears. The 2004-newer drive-by-wire throttle body PCM itself controlled the TAPShift function. There are no 3800 cable-op throttle body compatible GM PCMs that will control the TAPShift function.

Having said that, you CAN use a TAPShift equipped 4T65-E with a non-TAPShift capable PCM (the TAP shift function just won't work, but the trans will shift normally otherwise). I have done it myself with no problems. The key thing to keep in mind is this: if you are using a 2003-newer 4T65-E transmission, you must use a 2003-newer compatible PCM. For those of you who are using cable-op throttle bodies (on Series 2 or 3 engines), this means you will be limited to using one of the below PCMs:

12209614
12209624
12583826
12583827

I recommend using 2003 model year Grand Prix GTP base programming for this type of application. This programming did have VATS (passkey 3) and some nasty cat & post-cat diagnostics enabled from the factory, so you will need the PCM custom programmed to disable those functions/diagnostics before you will be able to use it in a Fiero swap. This is something I can do for mail orders, no problem.

-ryan



This is great info to have and the 03 PCM is what runs my 06 series III /4T65eHD swap. Would just like to add one thing. The 03 PCM was programmed for a series II engine. If you use that PCM the fueling and timing table values are different and the horsepower will not be optimized for the higher power that this engine puts out. You can get around this by importing the critical 04-up tables into the 03 PCM. Also be advised that the passkey feature is sometimes harder to override on the later PCM's. This can also be solved by importing the earlier program and making a few programming changes.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post11-18-2013 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
If you use that PCM the fueling and timing table values are different and the horsepower will not be optimized for the higher power that this engine puts out.


Wrong. The timing tables are really nearly identical, and are more optomized for the chassis moreso than the engine setup. The blower moves a bit more air at the same pulley size, which is where the extra power comes from... Its a mechanical upgrade over s2 not a tuning one.
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Rare87GT
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Report this Post11-25-2013 10:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rare87GTClick Here to Email Rare87GTSend a Private Message to Rare87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update..did an oil change on Megan's Formula 2 weeks ago and put Mobil 1 in there. It seems to sound fine. It ran fine before and the noise is gone. I think it was a stuck lifter or something honestly. Going to keep the oil changes at around 2,500 miles instead of 3,000 and keep on driving it. It's not slowing the 3800 engine process down, but definitely makes it easier to keep the car driving while parts are acquired in the process.

[This message has been edited by Rare87GT (edited 11-25-2013).]

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Rare87GT
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Report this Post11-30-2013 10:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rare87GTClick Here to Email Rare87GTSend a Private Message to Rare87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also are the axles still the same, stock Fiero auto driver side axle and will the axle you made for me Stephen work on her setup or are the splines, etc different on a 05? I might end up using the one you made me on hers as mine is still fine, I just wanted a back up. Let me know guys.
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MstangsBware
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Report this Post12-01-2013 12:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rare87GT:

Also are the axles still the same, stock Fiero auto driver side axle and will the axle you made for me Stephen work on her setup or are the splines, etc different on a 05? I might end up using the one you made me on hers as mine is still fine, I just wanted a back up. Let me know guys.


Yes it will work with the 05...Stock auto axle for the DRV side..
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